Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Oldjim on January 16, 2017, 02:53:52 PM
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Taken from DSL Checker - what is it
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In the notes below the results table it says
In order to be eligible for handback, downstream speed should be less than Downstream Handback Threshold values.
So to my mind, the question is what is handback?
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Looks like it's for G.fast, probaly the point at which the line is no longer suitable for g.fast and can be regraded back (at no cost to customer)?
OR-32776 / ORCE-92282
G.Fast
Downstream handback threshold (10th percentile) on eMLC
(to display the handback threshold on eMLC and use it to
judge whether a line is eligible for handback in T2R)
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10th Percentile.
When ordering GEA-FTTC, you may cancel within 90 calendar days of installation if the line speed degrades to the point of being significantly lower than the speed estimate provided at the point of sale and, having raised a request for investigation, we are unable to resolve the issue.
In this case, you can request reimbursement for the connection, rental and cease charges and you won’t have to pay any early termination charges. We will not reimburse any event charges you may have incurred as part of the provision or investigation process. This is the 90 day rule as in section 4.
We define “significantly lower” as not meeting the 10th percentile speed for lines with the same line characteristics (dB loss when calculated at 300kHz) when the line is operating on the Dynamic Line Management (DLM) “Speed” policy. The 10th percentile speeds for each line are published on the Range of Values file on the BT Wholesale.com website.
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So the Downstream Handback Threshold shown is the 10th percentile speed for the line, which is the speed that the slowest 10% of lines of similar characteristics achieve?
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That's what the last paragraph says.
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I'm happy I understood it then :)
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Just spotted this on ISP Review
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/01/bt-wholesale-broadband-checker-adds-downstream-handback-threshold.html
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This not a rant. It's just me with my waffle iron. ::)
From doing a check on what my address is forecast to achieve, 20 min. clean, and what my daughter is forecast, 60 min. it seems that the clean hand back Downstream Handback Threshold is about 90% of the lower clean figure, whilst it is say 72% of the lower impacted figure.
Why is it 90% for one and 72% for the other? Do they check the line for impacted condition before the change from ADSL to VDSL. Hypothetically, were my line found to be impacted the threshold would be lower than what I can get now, so I could end up with additional cost/month for very minimal benefit, or worse.
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Although no one thought to, was able to, or wanted to reply to my post immediately above :-\ :), I was interested in two posts by WWWombat in today's Think Braodband newsletter, part of which I take the liberty of posting.
The clean/impacted statement should perhaps be thought of as "proven clean" vs "suspected impacted".
If you buy a self-install service, then BT are only willing to support your service at the "suspect impacted" level, because they do not know if your line is faulty or not.
If you buy an engineer-install, that engineer will perform the tests (and any fixes) so that BT are happy that your line has a clean bill of health and been "proven clean". They will then assure speeds from the higher range.
So the speed used in the estimate will depend on the installation option you choose.
On the assumption that what WWW, who appears a very knowledgeable member, is right, ISTM that other than for persons, who can receive higher speeds impacted, the Handback 'guarantee' is of little worth.
Maybe I'm stupid, but am I? Fire away! :shoot:
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Searching before I started a new topic I found this one.
What I wanted to ask is, what is the point of the handback threshold figure on clean? If someone's download falls below that figure and complained OpenReach are just going to point to the impacted figure and tell them to go away. The user has no way to prove that their line is not impacted and that the higher figure should apply.
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Searching before I started a new topic I found this one.
What I wanted to ask is, what is the point of the handback threshold figure on clean? If someone's download falls below that figure and complained OpenReach are just going to point to the impacted figure and tell them to go away. The user has no way to prove that their line is not impacted and that the higher figure should apply.
Are engineer installs supposed not to be impacted?
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Are engineer installs supposed not to be impacted?
Yes. The logic is --
Engineer Install --> Not Impacted
Self Install --> Impacted
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I don't think it is quite so black and white as that. An engineer install should be deemed not impacted as checks should be made for poor line quality and local bridge taps but I very much doubt that all engineers do these tests as they are usually under time pressure or may not even know they should be doing them. On the other hand my self install is very unlikely to be impacted as my drop wire goes directly into the master socket and there are no extensions.
My modem stats seem to confirm my analysis of the situation. ;D
# xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 31537 Kbps, Downstream rate = 75648 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 7.2 16.4
Attn(dB): 12.2 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.0 -2.6
Errors:-
Since Link time = 39 days 2 hours 12 min 59 sec
FEC: 220659 93352
CRC: 0 6334
ES: 0 5652
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#
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I don't think it is quite so black and white as that.
It might not be nowadays, but it certainly started out that way. In fact, the two ranges only appeared when Openreach brought out the option for self-install. For me, at least, the old single range (when only engineer installations were available) mapped directly into the clean range.
An engineer install should be deemed not impacted as checks should be made for poor line quality and local bridge taps but I very much doubt that all engineers do these tests as they are usually under time pressure or may not even know they should be doing them.
The installation guys I have had (all Openreach) told me that they have to run the tests. The installation cannot be closed off without test results.
In addition, IIRC, line tests had already been performed before they turned up.
On the other hand my self install is very unlikely to be impacted as my drop wire goes directly into the master socket and there are no extensions.
The determination of clean or impacted has nothing to do with whether the line is actually clean or actually impacted. Modem statistics are, unfortunately, irrelevant.
It is about whether Openreach can trust that it can be classified one way or the other. It is all about the guarantee that comes after the installation.
While the engineer ought to ensure a properly-performant line, Openreach are willing to guarantee that performance by setting a higher range (and higher fault threshold) by virtue of having an engineer install. They embody the guarantee by agreeing to send out an engineer in future at higher thresholds.
The obvious scenario that Openreach wanted to avoid when self-install was introduced: They didn't want to make it cheaper for punters (by allowing them to not pay for an engineer), to only then have to offer an engineer callout free-of-charge in order to fix the problem that only exists because the punter didn't want to pay for an engineer. Less income, higher costs ... not a good business move.
What was needed, alongside the option for self-install, was a lesser guarantee that would avoid any extra demand on Openreach-funded engineer callouts (or "truck rolls" as the Americans call them).
The lower range is the method that Openreach have chosen to apply a lesser guarantee. I'm not so sure it was the best way - it leads to inconsistencies if you get an engineer install on day 1, but migrate to a self-install supplier; why should a lesser guarantee apply in these circumstances?
For myself, I will always choose an engineer installation, with an ISP that quotes their minimum speed using the clean range. That way, if faults happen in the future, I'll be able to get an engineer involved at the higher speed rather than the lower one.
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Are engineer installs supposed not to be impacted?
Yes, but it happens in an indirect fashion.
The ISP chooses what estimate to use when it wants to entice your business, and tells you what your minimum speed will be. This minimum becomes part of your contract with them, and determines the point at which they are willing to send an engineer .... which of course means that Openreach have to be willing to send the engineer on their behalf.
For example, last time I checked at least, Plusnet offered the clean range, TalkTalk used the impacted range, and AAISP offered the entire top-clean to bottom-impacted range.
The way the ISP makes Openreach use the right threshold is down to the way they order the service in the first place - with or without an engineer installation.
What is much less clear is how ISPs work when you migrate-in a working setup. But it isn't clear how the "handback" procedure works after a migration either.
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For info .... there has been unprecedented focus on the FTTC 'self-install' product by OR's hierarchy.
I won't go into the why's and where-fore's, but I can say that there is no time-limit as such on this product anymore ...... if there is a line fault condition, we will endeavour to clear that fault condition whilst we are attending the PCP work.
Also, until very recently the tasks would carry a header that the EU must not be contacted, and/or their premises visited ... that too has now done a 180 degree flip.
As these tasks are for the most-part non-appointed, of course internal bridged taps will go unchallenged, but if the EU is present and our final 'GEA Test' (conducted on our i-phone after the PCP work has been completed), reveals a 'bridged tap', then we will give it a cursory look-see. Basically, if it's a straightforward fit of an SSFP at the NTE, then we'll do it.
Yes, yes, yes ..... there's grey areas to be had here (there always is with bespoke work) but whatever ones thoughts are, it is aimed at being a positive step forward for the EU and ISP.
:)
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My recent line and FTTC provision were carried out separately due to a mix up. The FTTC was only activated after a fault was reported and a separate Openreach engineer turned up (turned out that the port wasn't connected back at the cab by the original MJ Quinn's engineer who didn't fit the phone line either).
I'm definitely in the impacted range on my line and have no other wiring than the drop wire installed by Openreach on the 2nd visit. http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20691.0.html
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Hi Zico .... your experience is a slightly different product to the 'Self install' or 'Managed install' FTTC product .... the latter two only available if you have a working line already.*
Your own product was what we term a 'Sim provide' (Simultaneous) ..... whereby there are two separate tasks, one for the actual install at your premises, and one for the Cab-only FTTC work.
We often see the two tasks being 'separated' by the work-manager flow allocators, in order to maximise skill-sets on the ground. Pretty much anyone can perform a FTTC8 task (Cab only work), so they will 'Pin' the work to those single/dual-skilled engineers who may be struggling for work ??? :)
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The obvious scenario that Openreach wanted to avoid when self-install was introduced: They didn't want to make it cheaper for punters (by allowing them to not pay for an engineer), to only then have to offer an engineer callout free-of-charge in order to fix the problem that only exists because the punter didn't want to pay for an engineer. Less income, higher costs ... not a good business move.
What was needed, alongside the option for self-install, was a lesser guarantee that would avoid any extra demand on Openreach-funded engineer callouts (or "truck rolls" as the Americans call them).
The lower range is the method that Openreach have chosen to apply a lesser guarantee. I'm not so sure it was the best way - it leads to inconsistencies if you get an engineer install on day 1, but migrate to a self-install supplier; why should a lesser guarantee apply in these circumstances?
For myself, I will always choose an engineer installation, with an ISP that quotes their minimum speed using the clean range. That way, if faults happen in the future, I'll be able to get an engineer involved at the higher speed rather than the lower one.
well usually its the CP not the punter that decides self install or not, do any isps even offer engineer install now on vdsl?
we have to remember when talking about wholesale costs, willingness to pay is driven by CPs not consumers.
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That's a fair point ^^^ ............... I have had conversations with EU's in the past that said a 'Managed Install' was not offered to them.
These ad-hoc convo's took place during the subsequent engineering visit, to put right the bridged-tap effects of the 'Self-install' product. :) :)
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Hi Zico .... your experience is a slightly different product to the 'Self install' or 'Managed install' FTTC product .... the latter two only available if you have a working line already.*
Your own product was what we term a 'Sim provide' (Simultaneous) ..... whereby there are two separate tasks, one for the actual install at your premises, and one for the Cab-only FTTC work.
We often see the two tasks being 'separated' by the work-manager flow allocators, in order to maximise skill-sets on the ground. Pretty much anyone can perform a FTTC8 task (Cab only work), so they will 'Pin' the work to those single/dual-skilled engineers who may be struggling for work ??? :)
Yes, my service was supposed to be under a simultaneous provide but with the hitch. The third engineer visit (to resolve the FTTC) was as a result of a fault log call rather than linked back to the sim provide.
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Mine was supposed be be a Managed Install as I needed the master socket relocating due to there being no power socket near to the original NTE.
It was a Quinns contractor that arrived to do mine. They don't have any tools to check the line and as far as they are concerned, if it sync's then job done. They turn up with nothing much more than a vdsl SSFP and a screw-driver.
Guy didn't even have an LJU3 on his van to be able to turn what was the old master socket into a secondary, so did a botch job removing my Clarity dsl filtered NTE5A faceplate and replacing it with the top part of an old NTE5 he'd ripped out of a previous house and the bottom part of the front of an SSFP.
He then backwired what was an old LJU1, stuck a SSFP right in front of the desk drawer because it was next to a power socket which meant I couldn't even open the drawer any more. Openreach had to come out and do it properly. :no:
Wonder how many more like this slip through the net? If I hadnt have known better - nor for the fact he'd located the SSFP in front of the drawer, then that could quite easily have got through. I still on occasion see an MJ Quinns van around here, last time pretty recently parked by a PCP.