Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: tickmike on January 07, 2017, 06:32:15 PM
-
Using Phone The Re-Sync Modem
-----------------------------------------
Long phone line 4.5kls ADSL2
Using a 'Dect' Phone or 'Land line' phone Sometimes makes modem loose sync and drop connection, making or receiving calls does that sometimes .
1.Tested at the 'Test' socket with dangly filter, no change
2. Different modems all HG612 , no change
If I force the modem to use ADSL instead of ADSL2 it does not happen and the line is much more stable (see graph ), About 15.15 I did this .
About 16.45 looks like some interleaving came off.
9.15 we get first phone call but could not get to answer it.
12.45 phone call made out.
13.36 to 14.30 ish phone calls received.
Second graph.
Connection had been stable then about 00.15 phone call made and that upsets the connection.
Earlier that day I got my ISP to do a CU line test and re-set the connection as I could not get above 448kbs on up-stream, then it went up to 715kbs , but that did not last it went down to 160kbs
Still think I have a HR joint on the line, damp weather seems worse.
Any idea's please.
-
Still think I have a HR joint on the line, damp weather seems worse.
Remembering all the other tests and experiments you have performed in the past, I would agree that a HR joint (or a non-linear, i.e. semiconducting, joint) would account for the problems that you are still experiencing.
-
Remembering all the other tests and experiments you have performed in the past, I would agree that a HR joint (or a non-linear, i.e. semiconducting, joint) would account for the problems that you are still experiencing.
I will see if Eclipse will get O R out again.
Can you say why when I force the modem on ADSL settings instead of the proper line settings for ADSL2 it makes things better.
-
Can you say why when I force the modem on ADSL settings instead of the proper line settings for ADSL2 it makes things better.
That puzzled me when I initially read your description and I am still having a problem in attempting to rationalise that effect. I wonder if there is anyone else who might have an idea?
-
That puzzled me when I initially read your description and I am still having a problem in attempting to rationalise that effect. I wonder if there is anyone else who might have an idea?
The up stream is straight line as from 15.15 when I forced the modem to use ADSL instead of ADSL2
Edit. about 17.50 more interleaving came off, now 16/2
-
Anyone any theory as to why forcing my modem on ADSL instead on it's normal setting of ADSL2 produces a steady Up and Down stream graph and the phone does not affect it.
Dslam set for ADSL2+
Target 6dB + 6 dB
-
Perhaps the phone's interference is in the extended upper tones used by ADSL2 but not ADSL?
-
ADSL2 occupies the same frequency range as ADSL (up to 1.1 MHz). ADSL2+ extends the range to 2.2 MHz.
-
It's not that then ;)
-
On my long line I am lucky to get above tone 190 at about 800kHz.
Line been steady now since I put modem on ADSL ( see graph) so I am going change it back to ADSL2 and see how we go.
-
I put the modem settings back on ADSL2 at 12.15 ish and did a QLT using fixed line phone 17070 2
modem drops out and re-sync, left it on ADSL2 until about 19.10 and put modem on ADSL again.
Why does this make it stable ?.
-
What speeds does it connect at on ADSL1 and ADSL2?
-
Sorry ejs just seen this, have to get back to that.
At the moment maybe with a lot of damp weather we had this week I been having lots of problems with a crackly phone, internet dropping out, internet dropping out when phone rings or is used.
So I got on to BT this week and eventually sent an BT OR chap out, I could see he did a CU line test before he came (thanks to DSLstats) when he came I explained the problems, he got his JDEC out and said he could not see any problem and buggered off :mad: :doh: maybe something to do with he had re-trained from the army.
Since he left I monitored the line 17070 2 and could hear cracking, someones else phone being rung, someone talking but distorted and as I write this a series of bip, bip, bip,bip,bip repeated over again for four times and I got that recorded on my mobile phone.
I got on to BT again and they are sending someone tomorrow, lets hope he knows a bit more about checking for faults.
-
. . I monitored the line 17070 2 and could hear cracking, someones else phone being rung, someone talking but distorted and as I write this a series of bip, bip, bip,bip,bip repeated over again for four times and I got that recorded on my mobile phone.
What you have just described is symptomatic of a "battery contact fault".
-
What at the exchange ?.
Eventful day :( :'( see graphs
-
No, a battery contact is when one of your wires (legs) is in contact with the negative (-50v) leg of another circuit. It is usually as a result of a wet underground joint.
-
would that not show up on his tester ?.
-
One would think so but if the fault is not "hard", it may not be too obvious.
-
As bcat says, it depends if it is an intermittent contact or solid. In the old days it was often due to poorly regulated (tensioned) open copper wires blowing in the wind and touching each other, but I doubt if that is often the cause these days. :)
-
Got up early this morning but no one has shown up yet :(
99% of my service comes underground to the manhole but it then goes up a DP pole and other peoples services go from that but mine comes back down (in the same cable !) then underground again to my house.
-
Update,
I could tell someone was working on my line Saturday but it is no better :'(.
My modem has re-sync that many times I'm on dial up speeds and asked my isp for a re-set.
I have tried to make the modem connect at a better rate but it will not.
Interleaving has been up 384/8 it is normally 64/2 or fast track
Max: Upstream rate = 140 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5480 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 35 Kbps, Downstream rate = 572 Kbps
Doing a QLT I have used my iphone 'voice Memos' app to record some of the noise on the line if they need proof ;)
-
Have you asked the ISP to ask OR to try you on different equipment in the exchange? Marconi DSLAM's on 20CN exchanges suffered from such a bug. Can you see the vendor ID from your modem by any chance?
-
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x71c8 / v0x71c8 and I'm on 21CN
Some days are ok but others have been bad, Engineer is booked for today but not seen anyone yet, it looks like someone did a cu line test at 9.15am this morning, which also made the line noisy again ! .
-
BTOR are still looking into my HR joint.
My line is about 4.3kl to the exchange and about 380M to the PCP, 99% of the line is UG from the exchange..
I know there are 10 Manholes between the PCP Would all of these have a joint ?
Roughly how many joints could there be in my 4.3kl line ?.
-
I know there are 10 Manholes between the PCP Would all of these have a joint ?
That is difficult to answer without sight of the relevant network records.
For example, it might be that each chamber is from where other end-users' circuits are split off from the main D-side, multi-pair cable . . . in that case I would expect to find a joint. However it could just be that one or more of them were provided for the convenience of installing the multi-pair cable . . . perhaps at points where there had to be a significant deviation in the direction of the duct(s). A temporary pulley-system could have been placed in the chamber, so allowing the cable to be drawn through in a contiguous length.
Roughly how many joints could there be in my 4.3kl line ?.
I really could not say.
(It is rather like asking me how long is the ball of string with which Weaver allows his cats to play!)
-
Seeing the fault was still 'Open' on our BT account page and nothing seems to be happening so I contacted BT Faults 0800 800 151 to see whats going on if there was any progress, after some time of speaking to openreach the chap told me they need to come to my house again so he made me another appointment for Wednesday.
This will be the fourth time I have at to wait in and only one time did anyone show up. :o
Lets hope I get a engineer that's going to get to the bottom of this fault.
-
Would it be of any use to ask for a 'Lift & Shift' to a new port in the exchange if the BTOR chap comes tomorrow ?.
-
Would it be of any use to ask for a 'Lift & Shift' to a new port in the exchange if the BTOR chap comes tomorrow ?.
Probably not. It may even cause confusion to someone in a back-office, somewhere.
It would be far better for the source of the problem to be located and then an appropriate solution to be enacted.
-
The BTOR chap came and guess what QLT perfect not any noise etc. when he tested the line >:D used his Jedec tester all within spec.
After an hour he went , So I did a QLT and yes crackle pop click yes the noise was back. :'(
He told me there were 3 joints from my house to the pcp at 381M away.
Tonight a friend of my wife called and she said she had been trying to ring for about 2 hours, she said to her it was ringing but it did not ring for us.
Looks like got to phone the BT 0800 800 151 and get them to come again. >:(
-
BTOR are coming again today, How do I get them to get stuck in and look at some of the joints in my 4.3kl line instead of just putting the tester in the test socket.
-
. . . How do I get them to get stuck in and look at some of the joints in my 4.3kl line instead of just putting the tester in the test socket.
That would require your ISP/CP to specify exactly what jobs they require to be performed, when requesting an appointment for an Openreach technician's visit.
-
Another day another BTOR 'General' engineer/technician but this time he got a colleague to come with him who was an SFI .
After cups of tea and jedec testing said the line was good even though I played them a recording of the noisy phone line that I recorded before they came and as normal a QLT was quite when they tried it. >:D
The SFI chap said that a 'Lift and shift' could be tried next but he was not booked on this job so could not perform it. :o :(
I contacted my ISP Eclipse but because they said it is a phone line fault would not book a SFI and contact BT.
I tried BT my phone line provider and they said they could not book an SFI it had to be my ISP. :'( >:D
Another 'general' engineer/technician is booked for Thursday. waste of time. >:(
I have put a complaint in with BT and escalated it.
-
Complain to OpenReach, or Eclipse. BT being your voice provider obviously cannot book you a broadband engineer.
Eventually one gets fed up and goes right to the top. Days later multiple vans seem to turn up and work starts to happen. Seeing as OpenReach are the only ones who can fix this, I would be going to the top there. I had huge success emailing a chap called Clive ::)
-
Yes I think we are at that point now this has been going on too long and getting nowhere fast.
I will construct an email tonight with all the facts in.
to
clive.selley@openreach.co.uk
http://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-9593
I'm also going to rig up my old Speedtouch 536 V6 modem/router that my ISP sent me years ago and hook it up, I think them seeing an un-locked HG612 modem and all my hardware fire-wall is too much as they do not understand it .
-
Just sent an email to Clive Selley clive.selley@openreach.co.uk CEO of BTOR.
Now lets see if we get someone who does not just want to rely on his 'Jedec' tester and who wants to get to the bottom of this on going POT's line problem. :)
-
I've just had a read over your experience and it's uncanny how similar it is to my intermittent HR case.
I started wondering why I had experienced Quiet Line Tests full of crackles and noise but when any internal engineer would plug the Jedec into the test socket and run tests, it would be noise free.
I went and bought an extra corded handset for running tests and I started noticing that the crackles happened more frequently on a different handset. at that point I started to wonder whether different handsets requested more current from the loop circuit than other handsets when off-hook and whether the amount of current had any bearing on the HR/semi-conductive joint (ohms law anyone?).
I then started thinking that the Jedec may pull an amount of current that effected the HR joint. If not the Jedec maybe a PQ test that sends 100 volts down the line somehow effects the HR joint and the noise goes away for a short amount of time totally eluding the engineer at the time of testing...
To try and test that theory I was wondering whether a multimeter reading voltage in parallel or connected in series to read current between different handsets would shed some light. But at that time the HR fault was discovered and fixed (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19232.msg342297.html#msg342297) so it will probably remain a theory.
-
I've just had a read over your experience and it's uncanny how similar it is to my intermittent HR case.
I started wondering why I had experienced Quiet Line Tests full of crackles and noise but when any internal engineer would plug the Jedec into the test socket and run tests, it would be noise free.
I went and bought an extra corded handset for running tests and I started noticing that the crackles happened more frequently on a different handset. at that point I started to wonder whether different handsets requested more current from the loop circuit than other handsets when off-hook and whether the amount of current had any bearing on the HR/semi-conductive joint (ohms law anyone?).
I then started thinking that the Jedec may pull an amount of current that effected the HR joint. If not the Jedec maybe a PQ test that sends 100 volts down the line somehow effects the HR joint and the noise goes away for a short amount of time totally eluding the engineer at the time of testing...
To try and test that theory I was wondering whether a multimeter reading voltage in parallel or connected in series to read current between different handsets would shed some light. But at that time the HR fault was discovered and fixed (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19232.msg342297.html#msg342297) so it will probably remain a theory.
Just for info really H4rry ............. the testers we use at OR engineering level are JDSU or EXFO hand-Held Testers.
You are quite right with your PQT observations in that the normal PQT will remotely apply 100v as part of the scripted test, and this can 'dry out' or mask a small HR-type fault.
However, over the last 12months, our tech-heads have introduced a 'Delta R' test, which tests at a lot lower voltage (couldn't say exactly what voltage), so as not to mask the HR.
The 'Delta R' can be run as a singleton test, or on a JDSU can be run as part of a scripted test. I wouldn't know about the EXFO as I don't use one ??
The two possibilities presented on the JDSU when running a mandatory PQT are .........
1) Auto-protective PQT (This has 'Delta R' as part of the script)
2) Standard PQT.
If an EU has a high number of repeat visits it is advisable to run No.1. :)
-
@ H4rry... BS has answered your main query, but just to clarify your point about using different handsets.
Exchange lines are current limited, so if you connect a meter in series with a handset, you'll measure something very close to 40mA, unless you're on an unusually long line. Now put the meter straight across the line, and it will still read 40mA, even if you are in the exchange.
-
I think it is right to say that different phones will pull different amounts of line current.
I have a collection of old Bakelite phones and some will pull the line voltage right down to about 5V when off-hook whereas others only pull it down to about 9V.
I've never actually measured the line current but clearly there are differences.
:)
-
Since sending my email last nigh to the CEO of BTOR I've had several emails back from high level BT and BTOR staff, saying that things will start to happen tomorrow to solve this noisy line and thanked me for the very detail technical info I had sent them.
We hope. ;D
I had a phone call from my daughter and it was very noisy and the modem dropped out again but a call I had before that and was ok..
The modem dropping out is the secondary effect of the bad joint.
-
Exchange lines are current limited, so if you connect a meter in series with a handset, you'll measure something very close to 40mA, unless you're on an unusually long line. Now put the meter straight across the line, and it will still read 40mA, even if you are in the exchange.
It was just last month (being the first month of the new year) that I decided to perform another test. With the appropriate "lollipop" plugged into the exposed "test" socket of the NTE5/A, my Fluke 8022B was connected directly across the pair. With the voltage range selected, a steady 49.7 V was noted. With the current range selected, a steady 27.9 mA was observed.
Let's call it 50 V and 28 mA. Hence an apparent resistance of 1785 Ohms for the metallic pathway and the terminating electronics.
Using the Kitz Broadband Exchange & Line Checker (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/broadbandchecker.php) the approximate distance between The Cattery and EABSE is 1.8 km (direct) and 2.9 km (by road). Knowing the location of PCP28 in relation to both the serving exchange and myself, I estimate the total circuit length to be of the order of 3.2 km.
-
. . . I've had several emails back from high level BT and BTOR staff, saying that things will start to happen tomorrow to solve this noisy line and thanked me for the very detail technical info I had sent them.
A small step in the right direction. :)
-
@BlackSheep
Thanks for clarifying that. I thought there was something odd about noise disappearing when an internal engineer was on site. I specifically remember that a regular PQ test was done on a number of occasions. I'm not sure if a 'Delta R' test was ever run.
@4candles and tubaman
Thanks for the info. Make's sense then that different handsets may expose the noise more than others. Would be beneficial to find a handset that was particularly noisy due to a HR fault on the line and then see what it is about the handset that exacerbates the noise. That way customers with a suspected HR fault may have a better chance of presenting the noise to an engineer when they visit.
@burakkucat
Did you ever test current in series whilst noting on-hook/off-hook current?
@tickmike
It definitely sounds like you've put the wind up 'em :) It might be beneficial to mention a 'Delta R' test to the next engineer, seeing as a regular PQT may mask an intermittent HR contact leaving all present scratching heads and shrugging shoulders.
-
I had zillions of pair quality tests done when we had a noisy line, without the instrument coming up with anything. It only got fixed once the OR guy started opening up joints and listening for noise at various points, however once that was done they got it sorted very quickly. Mine wasn't intermittent though
-
@burakkucat
Did you ever test current in series whilst noting on-hook/off-hook current?
Current and voltage, with a telephone on-/off-hook? No, I have never considered performing that test . . . as every telephone could show different results.
-
@BlackSheep Thanks, I will ask if they can try this .
1) Auto-protective PQT (This has 'Delta R' as part of the script)
-
At 8.05 this morning SFI technician phoned and said he was on the case he later came and did many QLT and yes as usual not a crackle at all, but I did one before he came and there was a bit of cracking noise.
He went to the exchange for some time and said my line was good there and came back and did his 'Jedec' testing.
He went away again for some time leaving his oscillator plugged in to the test socket.
Later when he came back he said he had put me on a different 'E' side cable and found me a another 'D' side pair, after lots more tests and QLT he though it should be better.
After about six hours he left.
I did some more QLT after he had gone and all seemed to be good :) at last.
I got a call from the 'Executive Level Complaints' of BT asking if all was ok. it was ;D
Until
Tonight I did another QLT 17070 /2 then I heard ringing pulse's, trying to get my iphone to record them I was too late but I did record a chap and women talking. back to 'square one' :'(
Also noticed a few clicks and pops. :o
I think I will be contacting Executive Level Complaints later tonight vie email.
On a plus note my internet is better now.
-
I would suggest you request Exchange Equipment changes in your e-mail.
Haven't time to read back through your thread, but in a nutshell, if you receive your landline AND broadband services from the same LLU provider (SKY, TT etc), then I would be requesting they provide you with another LLUT (ISP owned port) and also new TAMS (Test Access Matrix System) tie-pairs.
If you are wholly BT-owned services, then I would be requesting a new LLIC (System Y Exchange) or a new EN (System X Exchange) .......... as it seems you issues are at card-level ??
-
PS ...... please mention the previous engineer was great/did his best .......... you yourself appreciate how intermittent this kind of fault is, imagine being an engineer under high-pressures to get the job done asap. To do an E and D-side change is credit to the engineer, a lot would crumble under the constant pressure of 'Statistics'. :) :)
-
Thanks again BS .
I have requested a 'Lift and shift' to a new port and they are trying to get the same chap to do it.
We use Eclipse and I think they use BTW from our local exchange but I do not know if it is a System X or Y.
Yes I have already past my appreciation over about the engineer who came and have asked to pass it on to his supervisor as well, :) saying he used to be a PE teacher he was good..
Doing a QLT with the volume turned right up I have always heard a rapid pulsing / clicking noise (guess at two a second) , it is very faint but it is always there, Using the test socket and turning our 230v power off and pulling the service fuse it is still there, so it is coming in on the phone line.
-
On Monday I had the same BTOR engineer come around and I played him the recordings off my iphone of the ringing pulse's and then someone else conversation, he spent about 2 hrs doing lots and lots of QLT tests and as normal nothing, he also did his JDSU testing with no problems.
He did no make any changes.
Since his visit I have heard 10 times now on our phone line someone else ringing pulse's and conversations, I seem to think it is the same person, a women each time talking.
Since he did the E & D side swap last week our broadband is good again and has now gone on to Fast track as I do not get many errors.
Last week he fitted a new NT5 Mk4 filter as well.
Edit . I forgot to say using the phone or getting a call does not upset the internet now :)