Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Known Network Issues + MSO's => Topic started by: tbailey2 on December 13, 2016, 03:38:39 PM

Title: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: tbailey2 on December 13, 2016, 03:38:39 PM
Broadband-pusher 186k – as well as ISPs it supplies including Fast.co.uk and Firenet – is advising customers to seek other providers as it is unable to "continue to supply" its current service, in a notice sent to customers today seen by The Register.

One reader got in touch to report the outage happened at 9:30am this morning. The company has not provided an update as to when it expects services to be running.

"Their entire broadband estate seems to die," he said. "There was no warning or announcements, just the plug pulled out."

He added: "It's not the first time that 186k have had 'issues' but this is a new one to me. We are frantically trying to expedite new DSL/FTTC lines for our customers."

Another customer told The Register: "We're currently trying to get an answer on what’s going on, but their partner support is an automated message, and no email response or fuller statement has been issued."

Most of Leeds-based 186k's bandwidth comes from BT Wholesale, which it sells as a package to small businesses and home users.

More at The Register  (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/13/major_186k_outage/)
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: kitz on December 13, 2016, 04:35:31 PM
Wow.  Didnt 186k have something to do with the notorious e7even that went bust about 8 years ago?  Their customers also suddenly found themselves without internet. Basically they were retailing broadband at a totally unviable price which would give them any profit.   From memory they also swallowed a couple of other SPs such as Netservices. 

I notice there is also some issue with Fast.co.uk whom appear to have been reselling their services.  I thought Fast were part of Dark Group who at one point had some of their own network.  However it would appear Dark Group (https://www.dg.uk/) now seem to be concentrating more on hosting than service provision :/

What a mess for those EU's who could find themselves without broadband over xmas.  :(
One consolation is that with them being BTw based, then other BTw based ISPs may be able to perform a standard migration in 5 working days.  Not sure about LLU timescale, especially Sky which seem to take a bit longer..  Since no MAC keys required these days for anything, it may be possible to expedite if the EU is willing to pay.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: renluop on December 13, 2016, 06:41:20 PM
Incidentally there were two name changes in July this year, and accounts are overdue.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: NEXUS2345 on December 13, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
According to A&A, they have managed to move over 186k (the company not the value) customers that were on BTw over within about 12 hours. They have also managed to move some over to TTB backhaul as well, so it appears TTB LLU have got a very short lead time in some cases.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Chrysalis on December 14, 2016, 05:11:19 PM
Looks like a financial issue at the provider, I cannot see what else it would be.

Either they have not paid BTw or some other supplier and continue to be unable/refuse to pay.

Or someone has decided they dont like the profit/loss margin and just terminated the operation.

Ofcom if a proper regulator should not allow providers to just shut up shop with no advanced notice, so I think a example should be made of them.

Kitz sadly the lack of MAC keys has actually slowed things down as the gaining provider is required to wait for X amount of days before submitting request to BTw/openreach (I forgot how many).
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: NEXUS2345 on December 14, 2016, 06:02:19 PM
Considering that they terminated the connections, there is no need for the new ISP to contact the old ISP. They can commence an order straight away.

According to ISP Review, the supplier they failed to pay was not BT Wholesale nor did they have a direct business relationship with TalkTalk Business/Wholesale. They did however use a different supplier who DOES use TTB. They also appear to have been using Fluidata (FluidOne) for 20CN lines, and are able to offer same day switchover to their recommended partner ISPs, even if they use BTw back haul. They list these ISPs as being Net365, Abzorb Data, and IDNet. People on the TalkTalk networks appear to be getting online very quickly as well.

Some are having luck with BT lines, others not so much. If you are on a BT line and being given a live date after christmas, once you receive your login details, put them into your router immediately, as there may be a chance that your service goes live sooner.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Chrysalis on December 14, 2016, 06:39:12 PM
Ok so the system doesnt apply in this situation, thats good news.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Weaver on December 15, 2016, 05:15:11 PM
Is this in fact rather more than an "outage", do we think?

So is it the case that what I assumed from reading ispreview is not fair, that fast.co.uk hasn't gone bust, it's rather that their supplier hasn't paid their bill and they may or may not have had it?

So there is a possibility albeit perhaps slim that fast.co.uk might stagger on?

How did the unfortunate migrants end up at the door of AA etc then? (and IDNet? Aquiss?) Did they have to find themselves some alternative service quick without any guidance, or did someone arrange something for them?

De-confusing Weaver: Do we think at this point that the issue at the bottom of all this is that Fluidata is a supplier to a supplier and didn't get its money due from 186k which then stuffed fast.co.uk and possibly other brands / VISPs?
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: NEXUS2345 on December 15, 2016, 05:40:44 PM
186k couldn't afford to pay someone, because they may have been operating at too slim a margin. As a result, they just simply told their supplier they couldn't pay them, so a cease went through the system on all the broadband lines. 186k told everyone to find a different ISP, and because many of them were on these small vISPs, which tend to focus on support more than minimising costs, they decided to go with people like A&A, Zen, Aquiss, IDNet, and others. Some may have gone to them simply for the guarantee to have their lines back online before christmas, which is also perfectly reasonable.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Weaver on December 15, 2016, 06:02:56 PM
Chrysalis wrote:
> so I think a example should be made of them.

Agreed. What a nightmare for those users, worry before xmas for families, old folks and people who really need to keep in touch and business owners trying to get some work done at this hectic time of year.

I wonder how much warning users got?

Idea, v rough: perhaps Ofcom should require suppliers to notify Ofcom before pulling the plug on an ISP’s service and there should be (i) some mandatory financial reserve - like a deposit, I don't know the correct financial concepts / terminology - that ensures continued supply of service for something like ten days or whatever it takes for users to switch, and (ii) some mechanism whereby Ofcom can ensure that ultimate end-users all do get notified immediately the moment the clock starts running.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: kitz on December 15, 2016, 06:27:20 PM
Quote
Chrysalis wrote:
> so I think a example should be made of them.

Agreed.  However not sure how OFCOM could possibly enforce it.   
If the company has gone bust and no longer supplying any services, what penalty would they be able to impose?

The ISP will have had prior notice from BTw that services will be suspended.  I suppose the ISP could if they wished have notified all users that service connectivity would cease on 'x' date.


However, similar to most companies (regardless of what service they sell or provide) that are on the verge of going into insolvency/bankruptcy, consumers are never warned.  They continue to try to take every penny they can, until the day the bailiffs walk in.
We've seen this happen not just in the ISP industry, but many different types of retailers. ie windows, furniture, electricals.   Companies continue to take deposits & funds - despite knowing they are about to go under.  :(



Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Weaver on December 16, 2016, 12:09:54 AM
I'm thinking that perhaps something could be done in the case where it is a B2B supplier that is pulling the plug on an ISP, not simply an ISP ceasing trading. I wonder if that could be fixed.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Chrysalis on December 16, 2016, 05:09:07 AM
Kitz it depends really, fast.co.uk as a entity still exists for example, they didnt just sell broadband.

But directors tend to try to split off different parts of the business so one part can fail without affecting the other, whether thats the case here I dont know but ofcom I think should look into it and if possible make an example of them.  Else it sends a message its ok to pull the rug at any given moment. 

Quote
However, similar to most companies (regardless of what service they sell or provide) that are on the verge of going into insolvency/bankruptcy, consumers are never warned.  They continue to try to take every penny they can, until the day the bailiffs walk in.

Agreed its a problem in many sectors, especially retail, how often do we see them staying open for the christmas rush and then go bust in january., or even christmas eve/boxing day.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: c6em on December 16, 2016, 08:19:26 AM
The going bust in January scenario is often due to how the quarter rent payments are due on premises. So its quite common to find a firm hopes that a Christmas surge will tie them over for a bit and when it does not happen they go bust.

Part of the problem of forewarning to some or lesser extent that a company was in or likely to be trouble is that it would result in the equivalent of a bank run with everyone who could/had time to do etc leaving en-masse: thereby creating the very problem it was designed to avert.
Then again I'm sure we would all be surprised how close to bankruptcy most companies really are.  Where do you stop?
Do you consider a company totally reliant on a long term lender/financier or say one running at short term loss to build up a customer base as one not to do business with and potentially in trouble?  All that lender has to do is pull the plug tomorrow and the business would collapse.

Comparison has been made with a recent failure of an electric supplier and how the accounts were maintained and no one got cut off and alternative arrangements are being made.  The difference being that your electric supplier is in reality merely a broker between the supplier and you - your electric does not actually physically come from them - unlike your ISP for broadband where the product(data) does go through their own/rented equipment.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Weaver on December 16, 2016, 10:37:10 AM
In my half-baked suggestion, the onus would be on Fluidata to do the right thing and notify Ofcom. It's not that there would be a reliance on Fast et al doing the right thing.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: kitz on December 16, 2016, 10:40:27 AM
Kitz it depends really, fast.co.uk as a entity still exists for example, they didnt just sell broadband.

As mentioned in my post above (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19067.msg339149.html#msg339149), Fast were reselling 186k.
186k 'white labelled' their products and sold to several small ISPs such as Fast and Firenet.

 
Quote
But directors tend to try to split off different parts of the business so one part can fail without affecting the other, whether thats the case here I dont know but ofcom I think should look into it and if possible make an example of them.  Else it sends a message its ok to pull the rug at any given moment.

How on earth can you fine or penalise the likes of Fast?   Yes they do also have the hosting side of things, but they themselves are an innocent party in this.   They will have been paying 186k and found themselves with their own supplier cut off without any prior notification.

Quote
Agreed its a problem in many sectors, especially retail, how often do we see them staying open for the christmas rush and then go bust in january., or even christmas eve/boxing day.

It is, they hang on so they can get as much income in as possible.   Its just as c6em has explained, that quite often many businesses do run very near to their limits especially at certain times of the year.   We'd see it all the time when I was in business lending and had to analyse audited accounts. 

You often see seasonal trends.  Before say xmas it may start getting close, but the company may have a good retail season over christmas and manage to survive another year.   If that season was bad then the lenders will foreclose knowing that if the company cant make it over the xmas period then they wont be able to manage the rest of the year.   We'd often call in the lending for hotels/guest houses etc at the end of 'The Lights'
because this is the point when if they haven't earned enough income during peak, then there is no way they can survive the out of season periods.
Banks dont need audited accounts to call in lending, they see the day to day balances and are able to immediately see the point at which extending will not be beneficial.

Quote
But directors tend to try to split off different parts of the business so one part can fail without affecting the other,

There's often a valid reason for that too.
When one supplier - or even one main purchaser goes bust - it often impacts not just the general public, but also other businesses. 
A business may be reliant on performance of another company for their own success.  If that other company goes under then they could too.

For example my brother worked for a large wholesale importer of goods.  The company was doing well, it had several parts - ie Xmas, Garden Furniture, and toys. 
One of their major customers who retailed on the high street in most large towns went bust about 8 years ago.
My brother's company had supplied this large retailer with a lot of toys and christmas stock (ie trees/decos).  As in most business the retailer gets the goods then pays later, many companies not settling bills until a few month later.   The company that went bust owed 100's of thousands of pounds to their wholesalers.  Because the amount owing from the retailer was so large, this severely affected the wholesaler.  They'd supplied the goods but didn't get paid.   The toy dept in particular suffered extremely badly and it took that company out too as there was no way they could ever recover such a huge amount of money.  Garden Furniture remained unaffected.

So to bring it back to Fast.   They may well have split their broadband provision from hosting (I dont know if they legally have).   But the fact 186k has gone under, will likely mean that Fast will too unless they can find another supplier quick.    If the hosting is kept as a separate company then it means they at least keep that side running which is where most of their income comes from. 
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: Chrysalis on December 16, 2016, 03:13:10 PM
c6em what you describe is unhealthy trading conditions where going bust is inevitable, just a question of when not if.

Business relying on lending just to cover operational costs when they are established brand names with decades of trading history shouldnt be happening.  For startups yes is ok, also for capital expenditure, sure.  But for day to day trading no.

Thats akin to a individual relying on credit cards long term for day to day expenses because their bank is dry and that trouble is a foregone conclusion without a miracle happening.

Note by lending, I am not including things like getting stock on pre payment arrangements which I know is common practice.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: renluop on December 16, 2016, 03:51:01 PM
A lot of sensible comment. The only comment from me is that sometimes ofttimes there seems to be a reluctance to act to disqualify directors, where history shows incompetence or worse in running companies.
Title: Re: Major outage at broadband biz 186k
Post by: c6em on December 19, 2016, 11:38:58 AM
c6em what you describe is unhealthy trading conditions where going bust is inevitable, just a question of when not if.


The best example in the real (non digital/tech) economy of this in the public domain is Ocado the "upmarket" online grocery delivery business.
Set up in year 2000.....and never once until last year(2015) did it ever make a profit.
Totally reliant for 15 years of endless losses on equally endless operational and capital funding from its financial backers.
See BBC article celebrating the first profit!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31108569 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31108569)