Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: keyap on October 07, 2016, 10:54:56 AM
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Just after some real world views and thoughts etc regarding which ISP to go for. Basically, I'm with Origin and have had no issues. My brother is currently on normal broadband with the phone coop and is about to move to fibre and I've suggested he look at Origin too but we don't want to make the move without considering other options.
He has a quoted line speed on 32mb to 43mb with a guaranteed min of 19mb and is looking for an unlimited package which ideally doesn't apply a fair usage policy, doesn't have any traffic shaping and doesn't block websites. Origin would seem to fit this criteria however, the Phone Coop also seem to meet this criteria, at a slightly cheaper price albeit their quoted speed are a fair amount lower?
He's been in touch with Origin and referred to the speeds quoted by the Phone Coop and Original have apparently done some 'additional checks' and are estimating his speed should be near the upper end of their quote.
Anyone got any thoughts or options on other ISP alternatives?
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The sync speed should be the same regardless of which ISP you choose, as that is outside of the ISP control and purely down to condition of the physical line.
The estimates are just that. Until you go live no-one knows.
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Thank you for the comment re speed: Good info to know and TBH I wasn't sure that was the case as different ISPs are quoting different speeds. They all give a min and max and some give a guaranteed min too. The guaranteed min seems fairly consistent but the difference between the highest and lowest quoted max speeds is over 8mb? Why would this be the case?
What about from a service, cost and the bits I put about policy/traffic shaping etc.......?
Would be really good to hear some views.
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The estimates provided by the ISP's all come from the same BT source, but the way the figures are presented varies. You can get the 'official' estimates here: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome
You'll see that there are figures for 'clean' and 'impacted', the latter being lower as a result of crosstalk (interference from other subscribers' lines).
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Thanks roseway, I'd found that checker on another thread and the speeds quoted are the same as some of the ISP quotes. What I'm not so sure about is why some ISP quotes are not the same? Lets say, as an example, that the 'clean' speed on that checker is high 70 and low 55 and that the 'impacted' is high 55 and low 35. Some ISP quotes show max/min as 70/55, but others show less, for example 63/48 and I was wondering why?
From what kitz said, I thought they would all be the same. Are some just being conservative or is there another reason.
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They all obtain the information from the same base source, so it is just their interpretation. At the end of the day, as Kitz has already said, it is just an estimate. You won't know what speed you will get until you are connected. Also remember it will be Openreach that will provide the service and maintain it on behalf of whichever ISP you choose. Some ISPs are better at kicking Openreach than others though, or so it is said.
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Some ISPs are better at kicking Openreach than others though, or so it is said.
Too true, I've been reading reviews and there does seem quite a lot of variance :'(
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Perhaps have a look at sky..gigabit sky hub,ipv6 etc.. you can always use your own modem/router provided you are happy to set it up and it meets skys requirements with regards to option 61.
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Sky are good, and their network is one of the best. TalkTalk Business are also good from what I have been told. I am with Zen and I cannot fault them, although they are pricier than most others. It might also be worth considering Uno. They have packages running through BT Wholesale and TalkTalk Business, however they provide the customer service, and from my experience it is incredibly good. They respond to tickets at all times of day, I have had responses at times ranging from 8PM, to 3AM, to 6:30AM.
At the end of the day it is up to you and your brother to decide, but my recommendation would be either Zen or Uno. Both are solid options, with Zen having their own backhaul in some exchanges while Uno relying on TalkTalk Business if you get their slightly more expensive packages.
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:)
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note tho the dlm stability profile chosen varies by isp and some isps guarantee a minimum speed
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Just noticed this
> is looking for an unlimited package which ideally doesn't apply a fair usage policy, doesn't have any traffic shaping and doesn't block websites.
There is an ISP that (a) has no FUP, (b) no traffic shaping (is completely uncontested) and (c) guarantees not to block any websites unless legally compelled to.
http://aa.net.uk/kb-broadband-realinternet.html
The latter requirement is something many ISPs don't mention, because they censor content based on the secret and unelected IWF blocklist.
If you want (d) unlimited downloads, this will be either expensive or a slow service. If cheap unlimited internet were even possible (it isn't) then everyone would be doing it. They aren't, because it doesn't exist. Do you want a fast ISP or a cheap one?
http://clueless.aa.net.uk/linkreport.cgi
http://aa.net.uk/kb-broadband-contention.html
I use this particular ISP, with requirements a-c. I could be truly unlimited with them, but it would cost me an eye-watering amount, and their unlimited deal is hard to find on he website. Instead it's much cheaper to pay for a limited amount of download. I pay for the exact amount I want, which saves me a huge load of money.
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>> dlm stability profile chosen varies by isp
That thought crossed my mind last night too.
Especially with me looking at ISPs and having a line that on more than a few occasions a few weeks ago was sailing close to the wind since I picked up the other crosstalker. Im still getting that 10-11 am spike most days. It shows much clearer on DSLstats than MDWS, but several times Ive had amber traffic lights. The big problem with stable is that if DLM did take action it could end up being difficult to clear and DLM seems borked. Hence me being rather interested right now at what profiles ISPs offer.
As you know Im looking at Origin right now.. although they do use Plusnet white-label in some areas, here they are 'LLU' and have direct access to Openreach. They set Standard by default, but if you ask really nicely it can be set at Speed ;)
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Origin say
“This means no download limits, no fair usage policy, no traffic shaping, and no blocked websites.”
So that's possibly four out of four. Depends on what they mean by “traffic shaping” and on what you take it to mean. Having no traffic management of any kind and no download limits means potentially horrible performance unless all your customers are monks or on dialup, anyway, unusually restrained despite the all-you-can-eat-buffet on offer.
Without proper definition and published stats, that kind of remark is what marketing farketing people come out with.
Our leader wouldn't be looking at them if they were rubbish. Actual users are the thing of course.
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Its hard trying to find a balance. Cost is a concern atm. Vodafone is my cheapest option but no static IP, and them seeming to reverse their stance on own modems rules them out. There's a few things with running the site why static IP is handy, but I guess not necessary and could be worked around, but not being able to use my own router is a big no for me.
I've been aware of Origin for a long time.. they hit a sticky patch when Digital Region went bust but in fairness that was hardly their fault. As the main ISP for DR, obviously they took the brunt of it, but in all fairness they did try help and even posted on here. Since then they have been gradually expanding their own network. Customers seem happy enough. 24/7 support. I rang to ask some general questions such as standalone pricing (Pulse8 do cheap line rental) and static IP. CS rep I spoke to seemed very knowledgeable.
Anyways, can't do anything just yet, Plusnet still faffing around with my ticket. Apparently they tried to ring me this afternoon but I missed the call and didnt get the message they'd tried to ring until after 9pm.
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I just don't understand why ISPs don't all offer everyone at least one static IPv4. They may or may not use ISP-side-NAT (in the sense that they give out only RFC 1918). (Don't some mobile networks give out RFC1918 addresses?) But whatever they do, they must have enough IPv4 addresses to cover all their lines because they can't assume that only a certain fraction are connected at any time, as with modern, post-dialup access networks users are typically connected 24/7. So why create unreliability by changing addresses on-the-fly?
Obviously, TCP will fail if either end changes IP address. If the local end TCP detects that its own address has changed then it needs to signal failure up to the application and dump the connection. (Because the remote end will be getting incomprehensible packets from a new unknown correspondent if TCP just tries ploughing on, and if it reconnects then there will be a failure of the delivery guarantee and that's something the app needs to know about.) If the remote end changes IP address and just ploughs on then the subsequent packets will be unrecognised and junked by firewalls or else will have to be junked by the receiving TCP anyway as they are not part of any known session. This will presumably mean that if the remote end doesn't simply fail, which it ought to, then the protocol will just retransmit until a count is exceeded. This could happen in the case of ISP-side NAT though.
This is how I wrote it when I was writing a transport layer at work many years ago. (After initially getting it wrong.)
Maybe ISPs just don't want the management hassle of accounting for IP addresses and just want it to be done automagically without integrating it into a customer database. On my ISP’s web server I can see what IP addresses I have got and can hand some back. I can remap some of my IP addresses to different lines. I can allocate some more IPv6 addresses (/64) too without asking a human. There is a one-off cost to writing this server-side management stuff and you have to have customer service staff who know what an IP address is.
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If you want (d) unlimited downloads, this will be either expensive or a slow service. If cheap unlimited internet were even possible (it isn't) then everyone would be doing it. They aren't, because it doesn't exist. Do you want a fast ISP or a cheap one?
Obviously everyones experience differs, but my experience couldn't be further from this. I'm probably with 1 of the cheapest ISP's (talktalk residential) and it's unlimited, no fup, no traffic shaping, and I can max out my 50mb connection 24/7. Its been a number of years since I've suffered from bad congestion and slow peak time speeds. The state of uk broadband has come a long way compared to early adslmax days. Different exchanges, ISP's, using different backhauls will vary in performance, but I very much have cheap, unlimited internet. The only downside is the customer service over the phone. The premium price of some ISP's is mainly for good customer service. A lot of them share the exact same services as other ISP's, at considerably different price points.
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@j0hn - that's the ‘monks’ exception. A good tip. If you are fortunate, don't tell anyone in case they join in too. :-) All ISPs have to buy capacity, be it transit or links from exchanges. If you don't have too many TT users on your LLU exchange then that's excellent and good for you. My cousins used be on PlusNet on an exchange that was heavily congested (don't know what they are doing now), and didn't even get half the miserable 4 Mbps maximum possible download rate. If you do speed tests and the results don't wilt according to time, then that's a good tip.
I think I was misusing the word unlimited. I meant that all the users are using the internet flat out, I'm not talking about the download restrictions placed on you as part of your particular deal. I meant ‘unlimited’ in the sense that it is not effectively speed-limited by congestion (not by individual line policy). I don't think this was a very helpful way for me to use the word.
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And what's worse, looking back at that post, I was mixing up two different senses of the word ‘unlimited’ within the same paragraph. tip: I don't know what I'm on about. :-[
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Weaver you have to remember these are commercial companies.
The 2 prime reasons would be efficient use of ip addresses, even in this "always on" era, there is still people who turn their devices off, and powered down devices in a dynamic ip pool do not use up valuable ip's. Then there is the maintaining premium value of static ip's in particular discouraging business's to use residential packages, one such method is to only allocate dynamic ip addresses.
Interestingly even with ipv6 having massive amounts of ip addresses both BT and sky are only dynamically assigning prefixes (at least with sky tho it has a week expiry on the dhcp so is quite sticky).
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Noting what Weaver has said about A&A, Uno also have the same policy in place. They are a member of the Open Rights Group, and perform no traffic shaping, stating that all their packages are served as is. They are also much cheaper than A&A, however their support and transparency is not as strong.
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Wow, thanks for all the help. Only started the thread around 24hrs ago and already over a page worth of responses :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
I think my brother's going to give Origin a try - I'm with them but it's too early to really comment or review. The only thing I can say is that my move from ADSL to fibre went without a problem, took 10 days and, although I had an problem with my master socket install (I'm guessing this is not Origin's fault?), after one call, they arranged for an engineer to recall, let me know what was going to happen and everything got fixed so they seem OK to present. It maybe a bit of a risk as I can't really find too much about them, but they do seem to meet my brother's requirements and cost isn't too bad either - time will tell. If anyone needs more info or feedback about them I'm happy to share.
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Slightly off topic but I looked at UNO because of the positive comments here and a few things I am not sure about with respect to FTTC
Do they require you to take line rental with them and, if not, is there a discount if you do
Do they use LLU as indicated here http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/07/uk-isp-xilo-revives-broadband-service-under-uno-branding.html as the costs here https://www.uno.net.uk/price-list/ would tend to indicate otherwise
The reason for asking is that their costs for 40/10 FTTC are £22.49 which is only marginally higher than Plusnet 80/20 (I only get 47/10 so 40/10 is a viable comparison) and Plusnet support stinks at present - note that this is for the future as I am tied in to Plusnet until they increase their prices again
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Uno do not require you to take out line rental, nor is the broadband cheaper if you do. However, they do have cheaper line rental than some others.
LLU is used on their Fibre Pro and Fibre+ Pro packages, through the TalkTalk Business network, not Wholesale. It is also used on their Talk Surf packages, which as of present do not have a Fibre version, but that may be coming soon. This is an MPF solution, meaning your phone line and broadband are placed on the TTB network. The Talk Surf packages are significantly cheaper than their standard packages, so these are worth considering.
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One thing to remember, that I think should be on the footer of every page, is all prices are excluding VAT
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Let us know how you get on. Tips from actual users are invaluable. (Can see user reviews on ispreview.co.uk of course.)
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One thing to remember, that I think should be on the footer of every page, is all prices are excluding VAT
Indeed it should as it bounces up the costs by 20% so that the FTTC 40/10 cost increases to £27
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Right, as promised, I'll keep this thread updated with the order progress etc. My bother's now decided he's going to go with Origin and will shortly be placing the order. I'm already with them so could comment on my experience but I'm going to hold of to see how his experience compares.
What he has already done is used their online chat a couple of time yesterday afternoon and also in the earlier hours of this morning. Both were responded to within 5 minutes and he got the answers to everything he needed. On the early hours session, he didn't quite know how to explain one of his questions and the guy at origin asked for his tel number and rang him to talk it through :)
EDIT - quick update, just tried to get hold of them via live chat today to query something during the order and took nearly 1hr to respond :-\. Again ,very informative but guess they have less staff on a Sunday
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Have started to look in the ISPreview site http://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/top10.php (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/top10.php)
it's interesting how they gather up all this data, but at the end of the it all comes down to user affordability and what they want from an ISP and if your running a business from home.
Just because and ISP is not on a top ten list does not mean it's useless :fingers:
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And some ISPs have to deal with difficult customers, or demanding setup at the home, variability of modems and routers, complaints about wifi and forty things. Whereas some ISPs have a ‘fanbase’. ;D
ISPs can be hated or loved or something in between. Some of my neighbours may possibly think they have no choice but to deal with BT Retail.
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Quick update - Origin have advised my brother that they be using Vodafone's LLU at his exchange. Thought it was worth posting as I'd read something previously about them being a Plusnet re-seller which I thought meant this wouldn't be the case.
Not sure if this is good or bad?
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Its correct. I think I said about a week ago that they have been busy expanding their network and use various wholesale methods... and said they used LLU here too.
Should in theory be no problems with them using vodafone LLU as they also have been busy upgrading all their backhauls. Also as they are buying wholesale should have a separate VLAN in the same way that say TTB 'LLU' for resellers etc although Im not certain on that.
One of the things that I asked was that with Vodafone using 'Standard' DLM profile, (I'd been sailing a bit too close a few weeks ago and am also still getting the 10-11am error spike, and for a several days a few weeks ago, I would have been red if on standard). They said that they use Standard by default, but they do have direct access with Openreach and can get this changed to Speed even on their resold products.
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One of the things that I asked was that with Vodafone using 'Standard' DLM profile, (I'd been sailing a bit too close a few weeks ago and am also still getting the 10-11am error spike, and for a several days a few weeks ago, I would have been red if on standard). They said that they use Standard by default, but they do have direct access with Openreach and can get this changed to Speed even on their resold products
Good to know - I'd noticed the standard profile for Vodafone on one of the other Kitz pages. Might drop Origin a quick email and see what their response is.
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as they are buying wholesale should have a separate VLAN in the same way that say TTB 'LLU' for resellers etc although Im not certain on that.
Confirmed as separate VLAN, although you may pick up a vodafone IP.
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Hey kitz, here's an email I received from Origin's 'technical' team when I asked if my profile could be changed. What's also quite re-assuring is that before providing this we exchanged multiple emails as they needed to complete some checks and all responses were in SLA. In mine and my brother's case, this is based on using Vodafone's LLU:-
"Hi X,
Checking this for you, we should be able to change the IP profiling for the line, including the DLM profile. Please bear in mind though that if the profile is changed and there are then instabilities, the profile would need to be changed, or the line will experience multiple drops.
If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to contact us via email or on 01302 235060".
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Hi thanks for that.
It confirms in writing what I was told by someone quite high up within Origin :)
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HI, what is the advantage of Origin being able to adjust the line profile? I was comparing them against Vodafone, not much between them on price comparing the total over 18 months
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The last telephone call I made to an ISP resulted in an apology because it rang 6 times before it was answered!