Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: Cliff_G on August 28, 2016, 10:14:24 PM
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[Long but hopefully interesting...]
I hope someone with more experience than me can help with some ideas / what to do next.
I have a rural 4+ km copper connection back to the exchange (no fibre possible yet) and have had periodic problems over the past 10 years, periodically sorted out by BT finding a fault on the line. Two relevant examples were:
(i) about 6 years ago I experienced the line dropping every exactly 30 mins and 4+/-3 secs - but only when it was wet/raining. BT couldn't find any problem with the line per their normal metrics, but on further investigation found a logged fault on the pair physically next to ours (which had been taken out of service) and hypothesised that maybe the fault had propagated to our pair. They moved our pair to a completely different bundle and problem went away. The fault location was along a road through the two halves of a local quarry and my suspicion is something like: that the quarry had a sump pump which cleared collected rain water and were on a 30-minute timer, and when their motor started the resultant RF bust broke through onto one partially-broken wire of the pair, causing the drop. Maybe!
(ii) a few years later we had another series of frequently-dropping lines during wet weather which BT this time fairly easily tracked down to a water ingress issue, which they fixed satisfactorily. Chance meant that the weather was wet enough to find the problem during their visit.
I now have another dropping line issue. Line drops fairly "reliably" when the weather is wet but also, at least once a night it either drops or the SNRM falls away (more detail below), but this time BT have come out and couldn't find anything according to their normal metrics/tests. Weather was good when they came out :(
The interesting thing to me is the shape of the SNRM trace. I run Routerstats (ISP is Plusnet, standard Technicolor TG582n router, we are on ADSL2+) to monitor.
The behaviour is:
- when the router has re-synced the line at an SNRM at or close to the target 6 dB, then the interference is generally sufficient to drop the line. However,
- if the line was slightly more noisy at the instant of last sync such that the line has been running at a higher normal SNRM of around 8 dB, then the interference is usually insufficient to drop the line - BUT - the shape of the SNRM trace / noise burst is essentially identical each time
See pics attached:
(i) Full_SNRM_interference_pattern.png for the full trace over the whole duration of the interference - initial burst then about 2-1/2 hrs of noise before it disappears and
(ii) Shape_of_SNRM_interference.png file which demonstrates the repetition in the initial noise burst shape from day to day.
This happens even when the weather is reasonably dry and looks to me like some sort of RF burst - not quite repetitive in the sense if REIN, but certainly daily. The noise burst generally happens at about the same time every day - between 7 and 9 in the evening, but has been as early as noon and as late as 11 pm+
When the weather is wet then you get a general worsening of the noise - see
(iii) 3_SNRM_during_overnight_storm.png
I have observed joint wet-weather and ?RF burst? behaviour.
I am not sure if the noise burst is a totally different problem from the wet weather - certainly such as characteristic noise burst shape is not created by wet weather alone, but if for example, there was an imbalanced pair mini-break, then perhaps wet weather could make it worse.
One supposition (purely) is that the location of the wet weather problem in "old" example (ii) above was close to a very small water treatment works which has a cabinet that sports an aerial - perhaps it's sending a nightly data-dump back to the control room?
Another is that the water treatment works has aerators with motors (and probably pumps too) but I have been out next to it and when an aareator starts the line didn't see the characteristic noise burst. But that doesn't mean it's not a motor or some such at the water works.
One further point - our lines are, I believe, 100% underground, no overhead sections.
Problem is, this is now getting irritating in terms of frequency of the line dropping, but Plusnet/BT have essentially said I just have to wait until the problem gets worse so they can find the problem.
Maybe so, but it won't necessarily find the noise burst problem as that definitely looks to me like RFI of some description
Any ideas how I can progress this, and/or what the problem might be?
Thanks in advance
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[I will probably get told off for proselytising, ;D but anyway] if you feel that Plusnet aren't progressing the issue, then you could consider changing to a supposedly very ‘aggressive’ ISP.
The ISP Andrews & Arnold have a fix-your-line offer to new customers, where they will take you on with a fault and get it sorted. See http://aa.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
Of course, if you're happy with Plusnet then stick with them. Plusnet’s difficulty in finding the fault is understandable and they risk losing money due to charges from BT Openreach. BT have, I believe, an FOC interference-finding service which ISPs can use, but BT aren't responsible for outside noise sources and I don't believe BT can always compel sinners to cease generating RF, unfortunately. The same will be true for any ISP, AA or Plusnet or whoever, but some have a reputation for being more persistent at nagging BT. ::)
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Past history with Openreach says that they'll find something they believe to be the cause, it won't solve the problem and they will refuse to do any more work. Sorry to be the cynic.
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Make sure that you ring Plusnet during the fault! if possible, they will badger Openreach to fix any fault, mine took 6-7 visits to fix an apparently perfect line...
My fault was eventually traced to a UG fault causing intermittent noise on the line, I , like you, had overnight re-syncs.
Do you get noise on quite line test? 17070.
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My experience with Plusnet was that they fought like hell to avoid having to pursue any sort of fault that could be worked around just by slowing the line down. In fact I'm surprised they've left you on a 6dB target.
The problem with jumping ship to A&A is that to get the best out of them you'd need them to take over the phone line as well as the DSL, which means no more phone calls on the line.
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Ignore the cynics ......... they know not what they talk about.
As a long-standing REIN engineer myself, I will absolutely confirm that all ISP's will act when they suspect REIN is at play. The onus is on them to contact our REIN helpdesk and present them with a data-pack, (basically like the graphs you have posted but more in-depth), along with evidential notes from the previous Openreach engineering visits proving that the required criteria* has been met to have a REIN case raised.
* E and D-side pairs changed, Lift & Shift performed, Customers internal wiring optimised and SSFP fitted, PQT (Pair Quality Test) thresholds achieved, CIDT (Copper Integrated Digital Test) passes.
Once a REIN case is raised, we (OR) have to report back to the ISP on a weekly basis with our findings. The last time I saw documentation on REIN faulting it took on average approximately 4.5 visits on a REIN task to 'bottom out' the issue. As they are non-appointed tasks, and a gratis service, we may well have visited the area on more than one occasion without the customer even knowing about it. This gives the ill-informed 'haters' more fuel for their fire, giving the impression BTOR are doing nothing.
Hope this helps ?. :)
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BlackSheep wrote:
we may well have visited the area on more than one occasion without the customer even knowing about it. This gives the ill-informed 'haters' more fuel for their fire, giving the impression BTOR are doing nothing.
That's a very good point. Hadn't thought of that.
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The ISP Andrews & Arnold have a fix-your-line offer to new customers, where they will take you on with a fault and get it sorted. See http://aa.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
Well, that looks interesting, and in spite of us being a Scottish Rural market which does not have many of the normal availabel ISPs, they would accept us, based on checking my phone number on their checker. However, (there's always a "however", isn't there) we have phone and broadband with Plusnet on a longish contract which I will have to check when it's up.
But their service looks good, and eminently suitable for a line such as ours. So that's bookmarked and in the diary. Thanks!
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Make sure that you ring Plusnet during the fault! if possible, they will badger Openreach to fix any fault, mine took 6-7 visits to fix an apparently perfect line...
My fault was eventually traced to a UG fault causing intermittent noise on the line, I , like you, had overnight re-syncs.
Do you get noise on quite line test? 17070.
Thanks, yes, intending to do that. Quiet line test is utterly silent :( / :)
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Black Sheep:
Thanks, interesting.
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The onus is [the ISP] to contact our REIN helpdesk and present them with a data-pack, (basically like the graphs you have posted but more in-depth), along with evidential notes from the previous Openreach engineering visits proving that the required criteria* has been met to have a REIN case raised.
* E and D-side pairs changed, Lift & Shift performed, Customers internal wiring optimised and SSFP fitted, PQT (Pair Quality Test) thresholds achieved, CIDT (Copper Integrated Digital Test) passes.
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Hope this helps ?. :)
Does indeed (help) - thanks - but to get to this point presumably you have to keep raising the case with the ISP until they act to call OR. I have already raised a case on this particular problem twice with Plusnet and mentioned possible REIN on each occasion, but this held no sway and the first time they declined to contact OR and the second time OR came but I got a locum engineer who did as much as he could on what was a dry day, but did admit to not having the cabel maps for the area (things had clearly been busy up here such that they had to draft in remote engineers - they failed to turn up on the priginal appt date, which as it happens was wet weather - but then REIN is not really a wet problem?).
As much as I can get from the case notes on Plusnet's ticket system, from the OR Eng is: "Eclipse test ok. Line ok. Pqt pass. Synch test ok. Close out test ok. Ran long synch test and tried calling home phone, no dropout."
Is there any further testing I can do out-and-about with any sort of REIN detection device, in order to get some more evidence?
Re. an SSFP, on the example (ii) instance, that OR Eng fitted us a new Mk III NTE5 Faceplate. Does that qualify?
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Thanks, yes, intending to do that. Quiet line test is utterly silent :( / :)
Actually, thinking about it I suppose I don't really know - I've done QL tests but possibly not when I should have done. I need to definitely re-check when it's next either wet and/or in the middle of an RF noise burst.
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In fact I'm surprised they've left you on a 6dB target.
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Yes, they have done that in the past but I have insisted the line is retrained. And fortunately the pattern of drops has been such that they haven't wanted to try that again - touches wood.... :no:
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The problem with jumping ship to A&A is that to get the best out of them you'd need them to take over the phone line as well as the DSL, which means no more phone calls on the line.
?? Really - no phone? Why?
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Black Sheep:
Thanks, interesting.
Does indeed (help) - thanks - but to get to this point presumably you have to keep raising the case with the ISP until they act to call OR. I have already raised a case on this particular problem twice with Plusnet and mentioned possible REIN on each occasion, but this held no sway and the first time they declined to contact OR and the second time OR came but I got a locum engineer who did as much as he could on what was a dry day, but did admit to not having the cabel maps for the area (things had clearly been busy up here such that they had to draft in remote engineers - they failed to turn up on the priginal appt date, which as it happens was wet weather - but then REIN is not really a wet problem?).
As much as I can get from the case notes on Plusnet's ticket system, from the OR Eng is: "Eclipse test ok. Line ok. Pqt pass. Synch test ok. Close out test ok. Ran long synch test and tried calling home phone, no dropout."
Is there any further testing I can do out-and-about with any sort of REIN detection device, in order to get some more evidence?
Re. an SSFP, on the example (ii) instance, that OR Eng fitted us a new Mk III NTE5 Faceplate. Does that qualify?
Busy isn't the word in reference to Scotland's current predicament regarding line faults. We are constantly receiving text messages requesting for volunteers to relocate there for a few weeks.
Is there anything you can do ?? If you read here .... http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm ..... you'll come across a section that mentions using a MW radio at 612Khz, that may aid in your search.
To address the issue about the ISP, I would say yes ...... be doggedly adamant that you think REIN is to blame for your issue. The only thing that concerns me, or rather would muddy the waters, is mentioning that the problem is worse during wet weather ?? REIN does not distinguish between wet and dry climates.
So, maybe you have two issues that are ongoing ?? It is hard to give a complete diagnosis from a laptop a few hundred miles away from you, as I'm sure you'll appreciate. It really needs PN to drive this based on what they can see from their own data-logs.
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proving that the required criteria* has been met to have a REIN case raised.
* E and D-side pairs changed, Lift & Shift performed, Customers internal wiring optimised and SSFP fitted, PQT (Pair Quality Test) thresholds achieved, CIDT (Copper Integrated Digital Test) passes.
heh :)
I wonder how many visits it would take tho to get all those requirements filled? 30?
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?? Really - no phone? Why?
They do not offer a regular phone service, but you can port your number to their VoIP system. This will require an IP enabled phone, base station or telephone adapter. I use this service and it works very well, the calls are much cheaper too.
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heh :)
I wonder how many visits it would take tho to get all those requirements filled? 30?
31
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They do not offer a regular phone service, but you can port your number to their VoIP system. This will require an IP enabled phone, base station or telephone adapter. I use this service and it works very well, the calls are much cheaper too.
Well, that knocks that on the head then. We currently use a Vodafone SureSignal for our mobile coverage (which is essentally a kind of VOIP although no doubt a different protocol), but if anything is using the broadband at the time, the conversation just dies. So I would expect that even if VOIP is better in terms of bandwidth usage, it would still be pretty pants. And of course no emergency phone as we have no mobile signal, and get lots of power cuts. The joys of rural life :(
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Is there anything you can do ?? If you read here .... http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm ..... you'll come across a section that mentions using a MW radio at 612Khz, that may aid in your search.
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Ah. I had scoured the Kitz site but missed that bit, not sure how. Thanks. Will go and see if I can find an AM radio..!
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So, maybe you have two issues that are ongoing ??
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Probably! As you say, REIN does not differentiate between wet and dry and the identical traces day to day are no way due to water (unless we have a clever sort of water here in Scotland), but the interference fuzz when it rains is also clearly not REIN, unless the damp makes the pair even more unbalanced and it picks up much more of "something"
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Re REIN detection, there's mention of a 444B tester on that Kitz page
Searching for 444B I found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJJ5RYi6F_E
and also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW0ZXh5pIoA
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As a long-standing REIN engineer myself, I will absolutely confirm that all ISP's will act when they suspect REIN is at play. The onus is on them ...
That last bit is where I found Plusnet were letting me down. Quick enough to wash their hands of a noisy line fault on the basis of a REIN diagnosis from remote testing, but never getting to the stage of actually carrying out a REIN investigation. Their preferred solution, suggested more than once, was to change my line to a 1meg fixed rate. It may be that they were not willing to go through the preparatory steps that you set out. I suspect the fault would be outstanding still if it hadn't been for the OR guy who although not an underground engineer was nevertheless prepared to open up a couple of joints and narrow down where the fault lay, which was a line fault and nothing to do with REIN all along.
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> kind of VOIP although no doubt a different protocol), but if anything is using the broadband at the time, the conversation just dies. So I would expect that even if VOIP is better in terms of bandwidth usage, it would still be pretty pants.
Good point.
Whether or not the AA VoIP works, I can't really say, as I've been too unwell to really test it. However VoIP can in theory be made to work even on a heavily loaded line if the VoIP packets are prioritised by the ISP in the inbound case and by your own network and router in the outbound case. Some of our kitizens who are AA users also use AA’s VoIP, possibly on slow lines, so they may be able to comment. You can also ask AA users and staff on IRC ( web IRC service also available, see http://aa.net.uk/kb-irc.html ).
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You could test VoIP by signing up with one of the free providers (Sipgate or Localphone) for example, even without adding credit you can make calls to 0800 numbers, or inbound calls to Sipgate. Without suitable SIP hardware you could test with something like Xlite which is a free SIP soft phone.