Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: busby on August 13, 2016, 10:15:52 AM
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Hi All,
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Just thought I'd share my experience with getting an OR engineer to do a DLM reset.
After the G.INP debacle on ECI cabs, after G.INP had been removed, my line had clearly been banded. It ALWAYS connected at 32400, and interleaved. I left it a couple of months but no change.
I got in touch with BT via their web chat thing, and after about an hour I lost my rag after he sent me a link about changing WiFi channels. Clearly, he didn't understand my issue. I demanded to speak to second line support or a manager and he put me through to his manager who without any problem raised a fault to OR. No messing about connecting to the master socket etc. etc.
So the engineer turned up and I explained the situation, he had no idea what G.INP was, he said "you know more than me" :D
He plugged his test box into the master socket and messed about for a bit. Then I said "does the line need a DLM reset". To my surprise, he said "I'm just doing that now" It all seemed to be done via his iPhone. He didn't have to go to the cabinet.
After the reset, no more banding, connecting at ~36000 fast path ;D
I've read on here that OR won't do DLM resets unless they've fixed a fault. My experience suggests otherwise.
I guess it's luck of the draw, but if you are persistant and say the right thing to the OR engineer, it can be done.
Great forum BTW
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A warm welcome to you.
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I've read on here that OR won't do DLM resets unless they've fixed a fault. My experience suggests otherwise.
Sounds like you've had a proper numpty attend your house. The fact he doesn't know what G.INP is, solidifies my thoughts.
For info purposes, we are told NOT to perform a DLM reset unless a fault has been identified and repaired. Of course, as with anything in life, there are going to be anomalies to this rule. I've covered examples of these in posts all over this forum.
What you experienced was an engineer who a) Hasn't had the right training, or b) Is sh1t-scared of his performance stats and has done a simple reset to be able to move on quickly.
Your circuit may well stay stable due to falling into one of the anomaly categories stated above, or it may well over time degrade again ??.
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That suggests that it is something that can be done remotely. Why do we keep getting told that a DLM reset is something that can only be done by plugging a piece of equipment directly into a cab?
I've always found it funny that a software operation on a piece of kit that is connected to the internet with tens of gigabits of bandwidth requires a man with a van carrying exotic cables :)
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What you experienced was an engineer who a) Hasn't had the right training, or b) Is sh1t-scared of his performance stats and has done a simple reset to be able to move on quickly
b) is correct as his parting words were "this is the easiest job I've had today"
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That suggests that it is something that can be done remotely. Why do we keep getting told that a DLM reset is something that can only be done by plugging a piece of equipment directly into a cab?
I've always found it funny that a software operation on a piece of kit that is connected to the internet with tens of gigabits of bandwidth requires a man with a van carrying exotic cables :)
Of course it can be done remotely :-\ I don't know who's telling you any different, but it's certainly not on this forum.
For info, it can be reset via the engineers phone, or through a PC/Laptop ..... there is no physical connection needed whatsoever. The rules that are laid out though stipulate that a DLM reset should NOT be carried out just because the EU/ISP say so, usually a hard fault will have been diagnosed and repaired before such a reset will be performed.
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What you experienced was an engineer who a) Hasn't had the right training, or b) Is sh1t-scared of his performance stats and has done a simple reset to be able to move on quickly
b) is correct as his parting words were "this is the easiest job I've had today"
Which suggests it's actually a) IMHO. :)
in my experience, the 'Bodgit & Scarper' merchants will concoct an elaborate story, to cover the simplicity of just performing a DLM reset. It would seem your engineer was just blundering through ???
Caveat: This is all pure guess work as other remedial work may have been carried out by said engineer, that you yourself aren't aware of ??. :)
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I had OR attend on Thursday - two guys turned up as one of them was on light duties and they seemed to disagree on whether a DLM reset was needed / appropriate as they hadn't actually fixed anything.
The older of the two engineers said he always does a reset as a matter of course on every broadband job he goes on - and one was done before they left as I'm back on fastpath with G.INP disabled & banding gone, but still on a lower sync than I should achieve (see separate thread)
Neither were ADSL/VDSL savvy ("What's interleaving, crosstalk, FECs etc etc?") so I suspect it's luck of the draw vs training/skillset vs job stats that dictates whether you get one or not.
Cheers
Sam
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Well, it shouldn't be luck of the draw TBH. They should have a set procedure (plus people who who know what's what).
If I have a problem with my electricity, (which is exceptionally rare), I don't get an engineer turn up and say sorry you're too far away from the power station so we can only give you 100 volts, but then national grid was set up before all that mattered was shareholder profits.
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Well, it shouldn't be luck of the draw TBH. They should have a set procedure (plus people who who know what's what).
If I have a problem with my electricity, (which is exceptionally rare), I don't get an engineer turn up and say sorry you're too far away from the power station so we can only give you 100 volts, but then national grid was set up before all that mattered was shareholder profits.
They do have a set procedure ...... I've outlined above what that procedure is ....... we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired.
The electric analogy doesn't work I'm afraid ........... two completely separate technologies.
As in all walks of life/industry ...... you will get them that can do and them that can't do, no amount of training will see a difference in the 'Can't do' folk.
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However, I fail to see the logic. Surely it is simpler to perform a DLM reset as a matter of course on every job and then let DLM sort it out afterwards if it needs to. After all, that is the purpose of DLM.
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we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired
Well, that wasn't my experience. I'm convinced there was no fault on the line, just the removal of G.INP screwed things up. I'm not complaining, just trying to highlight the difference in service that everyone seems to get from OR.
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However, I fail to see the logic. Surely it is simpler to perform a DLM reset as a matter of course on every job and then let DLM sort it out afterwards if it needs to. After all, that is the purpose of DLM.
I'm torn.
An engineer who fails to fix (or doesn't know how to) real physical faults (especially ones causing high error rates, rather than low sync speeds) can make things look like they've been fixed with a DLM reset. The EU only finds out otherwise after 48 hours, when DLM re-intervenes. That 48 hour delay is the problem... and the EU gets to pay through a new ISP fault process after the original gets closed.
Is that the norm, though? Where an engineer can't fix a fault? I'm not sure it is really.
So I'm really for allowing a DLM reset after an engineer has paid the line any attention as a matter of course. Including where the fix was voice-oriented. It really cannot make things worse, but it might make things better - even though the 48 hour delay might still be masking things.
And ... given that DLM has been behaving rather strangely recently, with strange resets, inappropriate banding, unreliable DLM de-intervention etc, I'm all for making DLM resets even easier. A badly-implemented DLM process requires easier manual intervention ... and the evidence suggests that DLM is going loopy right now!
Possible idea:
Perhaps when DLM is reset by the engineer, they also get sent a (reasonably-fast) indication as to whether DLM believes the line will be stable after 48 hours - perhaps by closer monitoring for the next few 15-minute bins. Something to confirm "you made a difference", rather than waiting 48 hours.
we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired
Well, that wasn't my experience. I'm convinced there was no fault on the line, just the removal of G.INP screwed things up. I'm not complaining, just trying to highlight the difference in service that everyone seems to get from OR.
There does appear to have been knock-on consequences from the ECI-G.INP removal where a DLM reset is beneficial. That, IMHO, ought to be a case for an automatic DLM reset ... but at least an allowable exception to the "don't reset DLM" rule.
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Is being banded for an large amount of time without any indication of why (no errors etc.) not fault worthy?
Say an engineer tests the line and gets a sync of 57mbits whereas the attainable says 100mbits with a high noise margin surely that would be an indication of a problem?
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we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired
Well, that wasn't my experience. I'm convinced there was no fault on the line, just the removal of G.INP screwed things up. I'm not complaining, just trying to highlight the difference in service that everyone seems to get from OR.
Again, as I pointed out above ..... there will be anomalies, there always is.
I will agree with you that there are discrepancies in the certain aspects of BB engineering. That is why there is a set criteria lain down of exactly how to test a line, and exactly what to do dependant on the returned test results.
The issue is, should we all follow these scripted tests, you (as in the royal you) would be even more p1ssed off with the service given than you are now. The scripted tests take away the element of applied logic/knowledge from the engineer, and the service given then becomes just a tick-sheet exercise.
The plus side to these scripted tests is that they are there to protect, (draw a line in the sand if you like), Openreach and what is expected of them.
Read this forum, read other forums, and you will see the totally ridiculous trigger-point that some folk have regarding when they would request an engineering visit regarding their circuits performance !! Once our tests pass, and they receive the cost of the call-out, they soon stop the madness.
That is why I mentioned your 'Electricity analogy' as being dead in the water. Each EU has his/her own expectation of what is good/bad/middling when it comes down to broadband. Every single circuit is bespoke and will have different characteristics and elements affecting it.
Conversely, electric is electric ....... you turn the TV on and it works, you turn the kettle on and it works ..... etc etc ........ NO two broadband lines will be the same, and as mentioned it then depends on what the EU expects of their own circuit.
Add into the mix the sworn enemy that is 'intermittency', and it becomes a tricky business indeed.
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Conversely, electric is electric ....... you turn the TV on and it works, you turn the kettle on and it works ..... etc etc ........ NO two broadband lines will be the same, and as mentioned it then depends on what the EU expects of their own circuit.
Going slightly off topic now, but....
Roll on the day when broadband is broadband then. If there was proper infrastructure to support the service (for the last mile at least), then we wouldn't be in this situation. I had a similar conversation with the OR engineer the other day, and his response was "well, it keeps me in a job" :D
Surely internet access is just another utility like electricity/gas etc. now. Why does my 'expectation' have to differ between my broadband and my other utilities?
Until the day comes (will it ever?) when we aren't trying to push 21st century services down bespoke circuits based on 19th century technology, then there will always be issues like these.
It'll be the same with G.Fast. My neighbour gets XMbp/s and I only get Y, just like it is now with FTTC. They are pushing fibre nearer (FTTC) and nearer (G.Fast) to the home, why not just be done with it and push it all the way?
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When Joe Public is prepared to pay a proper price for it they will. But while everybody wants everything for tuppence it won't happen.
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Busby ...... licquorice has pretty much nailed it above. However, this is wandering very much OT now and this debate has been covered in a zillion different threads on this site. ;) :)
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I know Black Sheep doesn't agree with my electricity analogy, but look at the infrastructure required to deliver that to our homes. Heck, £17bn for a new nuclear power station :o
I currently pay about the same p/m for both services. Of course, the electricity is metered, but that's another can of worms ;)
It's a zillion and one now :D
Rant over
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I know Black Sheep doesn't agree with my electricity analogy, but look at the infrastructure required to deliver that to our homes. Heck, £17bn for a new nuclear power station :o
I currently pay about the same p/m for both services. Of course, the electricity is metered, but that's another can of worms ;)
It's a zillion and one now :D
Rant over
Ha ha ....... as you've forced me back to your analogy ;), all I will say is that when the original electrical network was built it was built to deliver 240/415v to the end user ....... transmission techniques may have changed but the end result has always been to supply those voltages.
Now, when the telephony network was built it was NEVER expected to be carrying high-frequency circuits, they weren't even dreamt of back then ....... so your analogy does not work. The two industries are completely separate, ergo are the expectations.
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My point exactly!
That's why we need an infrastructure that is capable of carrying high-frequency circuits. One that is built for purpose, just as the original electrical network was. They did it way back for electric, why can it not be done for broadband in this day and age? :(
Anyway, as you say, wandering very much OT now.
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"..........why can it not be done for broadband in this day and age?"
'They' can ....... I refer you back to licq's post. The crux of it is, originally the telephony network was built for PSTN frequencies, originally the electrical network was built to supply 240/415v .......
...... only one of these technologies has advanced way beyond what its infrastructure was originally intended for.
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Maybe without EU subsidy rules the government can spend 20 Billion dragging us into the 21st Century?
They'll probably just spend it on more fancy rail lines or another overpriced reactor though....
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They'll probably just spend it on more fancy rail lines or another overpriced reactor though....
Yes, then I'll be able to get from Leeds to London in 1hr 10mins, only marginally quicker than my IP packets :lol:
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Here's a link to ISP review and where we as a country are at the moment ....... http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/06/q1-2016-akamai-uk-internet-speeds-reach-15-mbps-vs-6-3-mbps-globally.html ......
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Thanks for the link.
However, how we compare in the world league of broadband speeds is of no interest to me whatsoever, nor should the government be trumpeting that we are one of the best in Europe. (They get 230v as well btw ;))
And how are these performance figures measured exactly?
Is the answer to move to South Korea? :D
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Dont worry we'll all get FTTP, the copper mines have to run dry at some point.
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busby, do you have the option of paying for FTTPoD yourself? (Well, probably not, because even if it is theoretically available, you won't be able to find an ISP offering it.)
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Thanks for the link.
However, how we compare in the world league of broadband speeds is of no interest to me whatsoever, nor should the government be trumpeting that we are one of the best in Europe. (They get 230v as well btw ;))
And how are these performance figures measured exactly?
Is the answer to move to South Korea? :D
I've been there just recently, and although I enjoyed the food (insert dog-jokes here) …… I wouldn't want to live there. ;) ;D
The point of the link was to show you that most developed nations are having the same issues with their broadband roll-out. It is new technology over a legacy infrastructure ….. that's it in a nutshell. Nobody could have predicted we'd be here with DSL tech (globally), when each country put their own infrastructures in. It is what it is …… it has jack-sh1te to do with electricity :lol:
If you read the link thoroughly, you'll see that stats (as with all stats), are not to be fully trusted. It is purely a layman's benchmark.
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busby, do you have the option of paying for FTTPoD yourself? (Well, probably not, because even if it is theoretically available, you won't be able to find an ISP offering it.)
ejs - I'd happily pay for FTTPoD if it was available and at a reasonable price, but I'm stuck with the horse and cart (no VM round here) that BT/Government call superfast :D
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It is what it is …… it has jack-sh1te to do with electricity :lol:
It has jack-sh1te to do with electricity?? As far as I am aware, the signals coming down my line from the cab are electrical ones, hence why it's so crap :P
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Another example of the complete misuse of statistics. Averages are meaningless because you can't meaningfully add one user's speed to their neighbour's, and averaging implies adding all the values together.
Averaging would be appropriate if you were talking about bonded IP, or PPP multilink, or multihomedness and equal cost multipath routing, where total throughout means something.
A complete different measure is needed. I'll leave that to someone who knows the first thing about statistics, which I'm ashamed to say has always been a complete big gap in my modest mathematical knowledge. (Despite what it says in the title of my degree.)
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ejs - I'd happily pay for FTTPoD if it was available and at a reasonable price, but I'm stuck with the horse and cart (no VM round here) that BT/Government call superfast :D
We'd all pay for it if it was 'reasonable' …….. but what the hell is 'reasonable' ?? These are blanket statements that we all can make.
There's another thread running on here that is a poll about what product would you choose if it were available …… the last time I looked I seem to recall folk were more than happy with what they have now on FTTC (The horse and cart as you prefer to address it). Unless you are a business user, or don't know the meaning of the term contraception and have 43 kids, you will never really benefit from FTTPoD. Unless you are willing to pay the extra bunce ………….. as mentioned before, most folk on this forums poll aren't prepared to do so …… as yet.
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Unless you are a business user, or don't know the meaning of the term contraception and have 43 kids, you will never really benefit from FTTPoD. Unless you are willing to pay the extra bunce ………….. as mentioned before, most folk on this forums poll aren't prepared to do so …… as yet.
Well I can't get BT UHD for starters.
Regards contraception, I get the wife to hold the WiFi router between her knees. I get a much better signal with it there :lol:
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:lol:
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Should result in immaculate reception.