Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: maniac886 on June 29, 2016, 02:15:02 PM
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Hi All,
I moved my FTTC service to a new provider around 3 weeks ago. I noticed that G.INP had been removed once the connection had swapped over. Does anyone know how long it usually takes to re-activate? My local cab is Huawei so G.INP should be supported & I also have the latest firmware on my unlocked HG612 modem.
I have attached my stats below in case they provide any further information.
Many Thanks
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Approx 3 days. :)
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Approx 3 days. :)
...........or as I like to call it, 4 weeks ;)
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...........or as I like to call it, 4 weeks ;)
I'll wait another week to see if anything changes. I used to sync at 72Mbps(download) a couple of years ago but looks like crosstalk has become increasingly worse.
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I am in the same boat, went from 76mb to 38mb, 76mb upgrade is due for tonight. This is my plan to remove banding that was stuck on my line.
Just waiting for G.INP to be enabled. I am on a Huawei cabinet as well.
(https://i.gyazo.com/a02b547f665927db93fdd99aa42a2093.png)
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gazaai, are you on Plusnet?
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If you line is banded then a change of product or speed will not remove the banding. Even though there is some kind of DLM reset it does not remove it. The only way to removed it is to have an engineer visit for the banding to be removed. I speak from experience.
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Yes, though if gazaai is on the 40/2 service provided by Plusnet then I can't see any banding in place?
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William
now that I have looked at it again you are correct, the speed is limited because of the product not banding.
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says he's on Plusnet on mydslstats
what exactly are you looking for too see banding? the sync speed?
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If you line is banded then a change of product or speed will not remove the banding. Even though there is some kind of DLM reset it does not remove it. The only way to removed it is to have an engineer visit for the banding to be removed. I speak from experience.
Not entirely true. I was banded on Plusnet for about a year. Switched to same product on Sky and the DLM reset which happened during the migration also removed my banding.
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Not entirely true. I was banded on Plusnet for about a year. Switched to same product on Sky and the DLM reset which happened during the migration also removed my banding.
Plusnet use the DLM Speed profile and Sky use the standard profile so when moving from Plusnet to Sky the DLM profile was changed so that is a automatic DLM reset.
@ maniac886 it can take up to 4 weeks for G.INP to be applied back onto your line when migrating from one ISP to another on huawei cabinets
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Sure, that makes perfect sense. Was just making the point that it doesn't necessarily need an engineer visit to remove Banding.
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Interesting about the DLM reset issue. My OR engineer who came yesterday did tell me that despite what TalkTalk told me any ISP can do full dlm resets and in his experience SKY is one which often does do it, although he also said some times they do it at precisely the wrong time ::)
Stuart
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That's what Glen told me (the Openreach engineer who visited here a few months ago). ISP's can do the reset remotely and he was saying that he didn't need to be assigned the job because of that.
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The ISP cannot trigger a DLM reset, only the DLM software/firmware will automatically do this when a change of Profile is seen IE: DLM Speed to Standard and Standard to Speed or an OR Engineer visit.
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Just as a matter of interest if GIN.P doesn't get activated automatically is there anyway requesting for it be be activated remotely?
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The ISP cannot trigger a DLM reset, only the DLM software/firmware will automatically do this when a change of Profile is seen IE: DLM Speed to Standard and Standard to Speed or an OR Engineer visit.
I'm only going on what an Openreach engineer said.
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gazaai, are you on Plusnet?
I was previously on BT then just switched to plusnet two days ago, hopefully my 76mb will be activated soon. You can see my previous banding on myDSLWebStats under my username: GaZaai
Edit:
Reading through the posts you seem confused to what I mean.
While I was on the 76mb package with BT I got banded at 66999 on the downstream, I was going to change ISP Provider anyway after my contract was up so I decided I would try going to plusnets 38mb package then upgrade to 76mb again a few days later to see if it removes the 66999 banding, just an experiment. :)
I will find out by tomorrow what happens...
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Not entirely true. I was banded on Plusnet for about a year. Switched to same product on Sky and the DLM reset which happened during the migration also removed my banding.
This is what I perceive to happen, and can't find any material that says otherwise. However, some members on here say otherwise from their own experiences ?? I personally don't think a DLM reset had happened for them, in their case ??
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As NS states ........... the ISP's can NOT perform a reset ...... they can request one, but not perform the action themselves.
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Interesting, thanks for confirming Black Sheep. Gazaai, I'd say your banding will be removed then, I can't understand how the DLM would remember the banding from before you changed product, just imagine that.
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Just as a matter of interest if G.INP doesn't get activated automatically is there anyway requesting for it be be activated remotely?
I can't see any situation where G.INP would not be activated again on your line since the ISP transfer other than the new ISP modem or it's firmware is not compatible with G.INP on Huawei cabinets
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I personally don't think a DLM reset had happened for them, in their case ??
If it wasn't a DLM reset on my line, what was it that caused a resync, removed G.Inp, introduced Interleaving etc?
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I don't know ..... that's the very same question I'm posing ?
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Are there any logs available to Openreach to see the history of any DLM activity on a line?
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There is obviously a difference of opinion here between our own Black Sheep and what I and perhaps others have been told by their OR engineers who visited and there is nothing we can do here to resolve that. The guy who visited me was adamant that one ISP (in his case SKY) had done DLM resets in the past where perhaps it was inappropriate and caused him problems because the reset masked the issue and left him with no errors, he was also adamant that other ISPs could do resets but some may either deny this or be reluctant to either do it or admit it.
Now this is a matter for the OR guys to sort internally and there is nothing we can do or say to change that. I'm sure that BS and the others are quite sure in their beliefs and I am quite prepared to believe that ISPs cannot actually DO the reset but may be able to REQUEST it, no one here knows and no one here can confirm or deny what the OR guys believe is happening because we are not in the front line.
It may be that somewhere down the line something will come out which clears this up but right now all of us users can only assert what we are told by various OR employees who may or may not have got it right.
Stuart
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Good question ............ engineers can definitely see DLM interventions on ADSL (Whoosh) from the previous 28 days, but I can't say I've ever seen the relevant 'tab' on VDSL (Whoosh) ?? I shall report back.
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There is obviously a difference of opinion here between our own Black Sheep and what I and perhaps others have been told by their OR engineers who visited and there is nothing we can do here to resolve that. The guy who visited me was adamant that one ISP (in his case SKY) had done DLM resets in the past where perhaps it was inappropriate and caused him problems because the reset masked the issue and left him with no errors, he was also adamant that other ISPs could do resets but some may either deny this or be reluctant to either do it or admit it.
Now this is a matter for the OR guys to sort internally and there is nothing we can do or say to change that. I'm sure that BS and the others are quite sure in their beliefs and I am quite prepared to believe that ISPs cannot actually DO the reset but may be able to REQUEST it, no one here knows and no one here can confirm or deny what the OR guys believe is happening because we are not in the front line.
It may be that somewhere down the line something will come out which clears this up but right now all of us users can only assert what we are told by various OR employees who may or may not have got it right.
Stuart
I genuinely believe the engineers who are stating a DLM reset can be performed by ISP's, are talking about ADSL products. They are either ill-informed, newly trained, unawares or trying t appease an EU ?? :)
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Are there any logs available to Openreach to see the history of any DLM activity on a line?
Well I never, from a bit of 'buggering about' on the navigation side of things, it is indeed possible to see some kind of DLM time-stamp ................ however, it is very, very limited compared to what we can see on ADSL DLM time-stamps ?? I may need to continue down the 'buggering about' route ?? ;)
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;D ;D
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@Black Sheep I don't doubt you are saying what you believe to be the truth, what I was saying is that we can only report what we are told by equally adamant OR employees. I am quite prepared to accept what you say but if we are told by others something different it WILL raise doubts as they are often as sincere as your good self. This is nothing personal, but until we see the BT OR rule book all of this discussion is academic.
Personally I don't see why BT OR cannot clear this up with an authorised account of what ISPs can and cannot do or request and under what conditions, forgive me if this is already in the public domain but I and I think a number here are not aware if it is. It really gets my goat ;) that we have these discussions as I'm sure it does yours, because if this was more transparent it would be good for all of us and take the wind out of a lot of sails.
Stuart
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I very much suspect that what the rule book says and what happens on the odd occasion are not necessarily the same thing. I think one thing is clear, only Openreach can perform the reset, the muddy bit is whether they will sometimes carry out a reset at the request of an ISP operative rather than an Openreach field engineer.
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I would concur with licq's statement above, Stuart. I fear we may never know ??
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If Sky has breached the Broadband regulator rules set by (Ofcom) they could be in a bit of a muddle as no ISP should have an advantage over others when it comes down to OpenReach infrastructure if Sky has issued DLM resets for VDSL customers then this is serious
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Stuart. I fear we may never know ??
I do agree....
Stuart
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To be fair to sky who I have been with for yonks I do recall pro fibre support have always said dlm reset can only be done by an engineer. I was told this several times when my pair swap was going on.....
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I can't see any situation where G.INP would not be activated again on your line since the ISP transfer other than the new ISP modem or it's firmware is not compatible with G.INP on Huawei cabinets
I have the HG612 flashed with the latest version of firmware , guess I just have to wait a little longer!
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there's no way sky can perform dlm reset on fibre. I was on sky fibre at my previous address, and needed an OR engineer to perform dlm reset.
pretty sure like black sheep says the engineers are getting confused with adsl. OpenReach product documents even mention the lack of ability for ISPs to perform dlm resets
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Well my product has now changed to 76mb package, although the attainable rate was very wrong it stated 81000 then resynced with 62950 but this is without G.INP and fast path.
Once G.INP is activated I expect around 66-68mb
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there's no way sky can perform dlm reset on fibre. I was on sky fibre at my previous address, and needed an OR engineer to perform dlm reset.
pretty sure like black sheep says the engineers are getting confused with adsl. OpenReach product documents even mention the lack of ability for ISPs to perform dlm resets
DLM is a intended as a 'Hands off' system. Engineers are specifically told on each and every job, do not perform a DLM reset unless a fault has been found and repaired.
I probably get 2/3 jobs a month that will state 'Noise on phoneline has been repaired, but BB speeds still poor'. One can see for the WHOOSH data that a network engineer will have attended and repaired the attenuation issue (HR), and that a simple reset is all that's required.
Now, I'm not saying this is the right or wrong way to go about things, I'm merely adding further fuel to the debate that ISP's do not and have never had, the ability to perform FTTC DLM resets. Even it would seem from what I see in my bubble, requests from the ISP still weave their way to an engineer to double-check the circuit is up to par before a reset is carried out.
The DLM reset system is monitored for abuse, even our DCoE advisors don't like doing them usually asking why we can't do them ourselves ....... usually down to a mobile signal black-spot etc.
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There is obviously a difference of opinion here between our own Black Sheep and what I and perhaps others have been told by their OR engineers who visited and there is nothing we can do here to resolve that. The guy who visited me was adamant that one ISP (in his case SKY) had done DLM resets in the past where perhaps it was inappropriate and caused him problems because the reset masked the issue and left him with no errors, he was also adamant that other ISPs could do resets but some may either deny this or be reluctant to either do it or admit it.
Now this is a matter for the OR guys to sort internally and there is nothing we can do or say to change that. I'm sure that BS and the others are quite sure in their beliefs and I am quite prepared to believe that ISPs cannot actually DO the reset but may be able to REQUEST it, no one here knows and no one here can confirm or deny what the OR guys believe is happening because we are not in the front line.
It may be that somewhere down the line something will come out which clears this up but right now all of us users can only assert what we are told by various OR employees who may or may not have got it right.
Stuart
a reset if anything would actually increase errors, as a reset line is wide open, not banded (assuming full reset or new install) and no interleaving. A line which is currently managed by DLM will be more stable and that is what can mask problems.
Your engineer I guess has been trained that way or has misunderstood how it works, no idea which. Or he may even have just been fobbing you off with random excuses.
For what its worth the only engineer who I trust face to face is my install engineer, everything he told me has either matched what has been confirmed on here or by any openreach statements or is at least believable, other engineers have told me stuff that I know is rubbish the moment it comes out their mouth like the guy who told me, my speed estimate is the speed at my cabinet and then it declines further from there, sadly some engineers seem to be in defensive mode in where they think its their job to make up stuff to explain why work isnt going to be carried out, instead of the truth which is the openreach support level on this product is bare bones, and they are only required to check for voice sin compliance.
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re G.INP reactivation ...
Before I moved ISP (on 40/10 product) , G.INP was enabled on my line.
3 weeks ago I moved ISP, and at the same time changed product to 80/20.
With the same modem in use at my end, on the day of changeover G.INP turned off and it has remained off.
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do not perform a DLM reset unless a fault has been found and repaired.
Interesting, I think because Glen knew me so well he just did it anyway. :lol:
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The guy who visited me was adamant that one ISP (in his case SKY) had done DLM resets in the past where perhaps it was inappropriate and caused him problems because the reset masked the issue and left him with no errors, he was also adamant that other ISPs could do resets but some may either deny this or be reluctant to either do it or admit it.
That sounds more like he was talking about an LLU ADSL line. Sky have their own LLU DLM for ADSL2+ which they can change themselves.
It is the only explanation why the OR engineer would say it masked the errors. OR engineers have no control over Skys LLU DLM.
This isn't the case with VDSL though as DLM is controlled by Openreach and can only be reset by Openreach.
The Openreach NGA DLM can be automatically 'reset' by a change of product. A change of product includes moving between an ISP that uses speed profile and one that uses standard profile and vice versa.
However that said, I suspect there may be 2 types of NGA DLM reset.
- The one done by OR engineers which take the account back to the Open profile.
- The one automatically done by a product change.
The later one does not always appear to be a full reset. Whilst it may clear things like G.INP/Interleaving.. it does not appear to remove any banding which may have been previously applied to the line.
Ive discussed this in more depth in another thread when I first made this observation... and its why I originally started another thread asking for those who appear to be stuck with a banded line as I wanted to see stats. I was hoping to take it further with someone at Openreach, but things have changed since I started that and its not anything I envisage taking up in the near future as Im afraid its had to go on the priority stack.
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Just to provide an update to this thread - it's taken over 2 months but G.INP has finally been activated again and I now have around 5-6Mbps increase downstream. The stats are actually better than when I was with my previous provider BT.
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I am glad it has returned for you but sorry it took 2 months and unacceptable we have to wait that long for a very important attribute on the VDSL service to be reinstated it used to take 2 days for G.INP to come back now it's more like 2 months
Assia Court case or not this has become ridiculous >:(
First of all it changes my mind on moving to another provider second it stops me of even thinking of getting an OR engineer to visit premises to fix a possible fault in case he/see resets the DLM not so much an open ISP market
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I've had G.INP on my downstream for ages but not on the upstream, even though I used to.
I guess I don't really need it as I've only had 1700 or so ES on the upstream in the last 70+ days but what are the requirements to have it added?
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No its only applied on upstream if DLM thinks you need it and if you are on Huawei, which you are.
I dont know what the criteria is, but presumably the Err/Sec count as per old system.
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I've had G.INP on my downstream for ages but not on the upstream, even though I used to.
You can force it to turn on G.INP on the upstream but that only works for 2 days and then your back to fastpath and please don't ask me to give details on how to force G.INP on the upstream in this forum ;)
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My new line installed on 20th May has had G.INP enabled just this morning. Slight increase in attainable.
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Funnily enough my G.INP seemed to come back on the 15 August!
Now it's just gone back to the suspiciously capped 34999 (SNR currently 7.8). I dd get up to 37.5-38.0 ish many months ago before my silly idea of tryin a HH5a internal modem!
I wonder if BT did some G.INP change en-masse... strange co-incidence, though admittedly mine stopped when I did infinity recontract (and hence line reset it seems)
Wish the 35k cap would do one... been on a HG612 for many months now. (and the line is rock stable.. for weeks, months on end until BT force a resync as for profile reset, G.INP activation)
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Just an interesting update to this - I moved to IDNET on 19/12/2017 and G.INP was disabled. It's only just re-enabled 2 days ago so thats 5 months since I switched!
My downstream max rate has increased to 68911kbps from around 62000kbps and upstream 15852kbps from around 12000kbps. Welcome increase with the speed but can't believe it's taken this long!