Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: MaximusPrime on June 04, 2016, 10:38:02 PM

Title: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 04, 2016, 10:38:02 PM
Hi,

I have a telephone cable that runs under my house directly into our main socket.

During bad weather my connection drops out.

Can you see from my tone graph if there is a problem with it:

cheers
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 05, 2016, 12:13:26 AM
Just for clarification how did you find the pairs (Telephone cable) runs under the house ?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: broadstairs on June 05, 2016, 07:50:17 AM
I was having an issue like this on my line primarily after rain. I found that using the phone would drop my broadband connection but when it was happening I also had a noisy phone line with background hiss and lots of crackles & pops (not it was not a popular cereal nearby  ;D ) so reported it as a phone fault. The OR guy came and found a high resistance fault which he has repaired and although my broadband has not yet fully recovered from the DLM intervention caused by the fault my line has improved out of all recognition. So when this happens check you phone and if noisy report it.

Stuart
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 12:24:00 PM
Quote
Just for clarification how did you find the pairs (Telephone cable) runs under the house ?

Openreach Engineers said

Quote
So when this happens check you phone and if noisy report it

I had noise on my line but I got that fixed but getting the tones voice is transmitted over fixed hasn't fixed my broadband
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: licquorice on June 05, 2016, 12:34:59 PM
 :-X :-X :-X ;)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 12:41:50 PM
@licquorice,

specifically looking for advice how I can use this graph to get the underground cable replaced with an overhead cable.

Those tones missing in the middle should be there imo?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on June 05, 2016, 12:55:14 PM
Can you see from my tone graph if there is a problem with it:

On the face of it, no. Nothing stands out alone - save perhaps the gaps around tones 110 and 130. But we can't tell *why* they are not there.

To see static problems, we are likely to need to consider the Hlog, QLN, SNR/tone and bit/tone graphs all together - alongside "simple" information about the line from the "telnet data", such as the attenuation.

To see dynamic problems (such as a line dropping in bad weather), we are likely to need to consider graphs over time - particularly the attenuation, SNRM, sync speed, attainable speed graphs, plus the error-tracking graphs (FEC, CRC, ES, SES and retransmission graphs if they apply), plus the DLM-affected data (INP, delay etc from the "telnet data").

How long is the line? The distance from the cabinet, that is.

Those tones missing in the middle should be there imo?

It depends why they are missing.

The gap between 160 and 280 is likely to be because the cabinet is transmitting at reduced power to prevent interference with ADSL from the exchange. We expect a "notch" in both SNR/tone and bits/tone at *some* point in the spectrum (I've attached mine for comparison) - yours looks consistent with a cabinet that is about 3km from the exchange.

The small gaps at 110 and 130 are different. More data is perhaps needed there.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 03:30:40 PM
@WWWombat,

I'm 2.8km from my cabinet. I usually connect at 8Mb with a Billion 8800NL.

Yesterday I parked my car to wash it in a different place where the cable runs under & I swear it disconnected my internet & I'm down to 4Mb now.

I attached the extra graphs
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 05, 2016, 03:43:46 PM
Your circuit's Hlog plot shows that only the US0 and DS1 bands are in use. From the uppermost sub-carrier (tone) in operation, we can see that the circuit is just managing to be better than a good quality ADSL2+ service!

The QLN plot is very much as I was expecting to see. Not brilliant but neither outrageously poor.

The SNRM plot, with values of around 15 dB DS and 13 dB US, show that there is certainly more that the circuit could provide. 
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 03:49:07 PM
@burakkucat,

what does HLog mean? Should it be better? If so how?

QLN means Quiet Line Noise but why are the y-axis values negative? The lower the number the more noise there is?

Usually my noise margin is between 6 & 7db
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 05, 2016, 04:10:09 PM
The units for both the Hlog (the transfer function of the circuit) and the QLN plots are based on decibel ratios (specifically dB and dB/Hz, respectively). Hence a negative value is an expression of the fact that numerator is smaller than the denominator. Both should really be shown as quadrant four plots . . . i.e. the zero point of the Y-axis at the top of the graph's frame.

The shape of your Hlog plot is good, you should expect to see a smooth, gradual decline with respect to frequency. (As the units are negative decibel values, you should expect to see larger negative values with increasing frequency.) A good Hlog plot would show the US0, DS1, US1, DS2, US2 & DS3 bands in use. (With green for US and red for DS you would see the characteristic green, red, green, red, green and red colouration across a good Hlog plot.)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 04:25:23 PM
@burakkucat,

when you say HLog is the transfer function what do you mean?

So the graphs are fine?

Any suggestions what data to record to get my line changed when the bad weather starts again?

I can't sit through another Winter with my broadband disconnecting for several days at a time
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 05, 2016, 04:34:38 PM
when you say HLog is the transfer function what do you mean?

It is a complex function, involving both real and imaginary numbers. (The equivalent Hlin function actually shows both real and imaginary values per sub-carrier.) In the broadest sense, it is often useful to consider the Hlog plot to show the equivalence of attenuation over frequency.

Quote
So the graphs are fine?

For what little we can see, there is no evidence of a "smoking gun" . . .

Quote
Any suggestions what data to record to get my line changed when the bad weather starts again?

Just as WWWombat has mentioned, above.

Quote
I can't sit through another Winter with my broadband disconnecting for several days at a time

Perhaps consider having a second line installed and once that has been actioned, then have the service on the first line terminated.  :-\
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 04:39:34 PM
@burakkucat,

I have considered getting a second line in but would Openreach try to use the single pair into my home to service both sockets?

We used to have a second line in our home during dial up internet days & they used the underground line into our house to service both sockets, there's only 1 pair in the underground cable
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 05, 2016, 05:21:47 PM
We never used single-pair cable on underground fed homes, back in the day. I can't think of any single-pair underground cable in use, even today ???

I'm guessing you live on a 1960/70's estate, whereby the preferred method back then was to use DIG (Direct-in-ground) armoured cable. The premise was to lay the cable in the ground and the house was then built on top of it.
These cables were always 2-pair in nature ....... if you can find where the entry box is, you should see Pair 1 = Orange/White wires ..... Pair 2 = Green/Black wires.

Yes, we would definitely use the spare pair to provision the 2nd line over, if it was fault free.

Experience tells me that we do have issues with these old cables, especially with 'Earth contact' faults ...... ie: the insulation has broken down, along with the outer protective sheathing, and is in contact with the ground around it. However, for every cable we find faulty, there will be one that has stood the test of time. Only an engineer running tests could prove one way or another.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: S.Stephenson on June 05, 2016, 05:30:24 PM
I wonder if when they put the cables in the ground in the 1960/70's they expected them to still be in use in 2016  :D

How hard is it to replace a DIG cable assuming there is no telephone poles? I'd expect it to be a messy and expensive fix.

In my ideal world we'd all have graphene ducting with fiver optic cables  :lol:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 05, 2016, 05:38:46 PM
Who knows what the thinking was regarding technology back in the day ??? I think if they could have had a glimpse of what was to be, they'd have been in awe with the advances made ??  :)

Replacing a DIG is only as difficult as the ground surface of the premises. If the DIG has been proven faulty we fill out an A55 document that shows an OS of the premises in question. We then fill out the necessary details such as surface (Grass, tarmac, block-paving, etc), the total distance in metres of each surface area, and where the new external connection block (BT66) is to be fitted.

Our contractors will then either dig in a new length of duct from the pavement to the BT66 and provide a draw-rope to pull in a new cable, or if this proves unachievable, will dig in a brand new armoured cable.

The EU signs a disclaimer accepting work to be carried out on their premises, which states that if they are not happy with the reinstatement our contractors will return until they are. I have to say, the majority of work I've seen performed you wouldn't even know they'd been. Very good at what they do.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Starman on June 05, 2016, 05:45:53 PM
The EU signs a disclaimer accepting work to be carried out on their premises, which states that if they are not happy with the reinstatement our contractors will return until they are. I have to say, the majority of work I've seen performed you wouldn't even know they'd been. Very good at what they do.

Pretty much the same on the DNO side - we will reinstate whatever was originally there with the major exception being the likes of the current fashionable printed concrete driveways.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 05:50:30 PM
@Black Sheep,

the cable would have been dug in & runs under our home, 1980 approx. We don't live on an estate. I live in N.Ireland so maybe the procedure was of lower quality here at the time. I have attached the layout of my telephone network.

A Senior OR Engineer with 40 years experience said the cable would have been low quality like the 1 that goes into the back of a router. He swapped the pairs in the main cable. He didn't mention a second pair coming into the house though. Pretty sure the pair was an orange & white pair.

My internet is fine in good weather but drops out for days if there is cold weather. Heavy rain will lower my connection rate too. How do I prove this problem exists because by the time a OR Engineer arrives the weather has changed
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 05, 2016, 06:04:24 PM
Crikey ....... if I could answer your question I'd probably be sat poolside at a mansion in Miami !!!  ;) ;D

There is nothing you could do other than explain the happenings with changes in weather, to the engineer. With the greatest of respect, please try and understand we can't just go spending thousands on providing new duct and cable on the say-so of the EU, and their observations of the weather.
We have to prove conclusively that the cable is completely 'shot' before a change out will happen. The only saving grace might be that IF this is the underground feed to your house that is faulty, they don't improve of their own accord ...... it will get steadily worse until the fault is prevalent at all times.

I think based on Mr Cats and W3's observations above, you may be better leaving this until it degrades further as it appears your service is working ok via the stats provided ??? of course it's up to you yourself, some folk can live with it ..... others are tenacious to the point of madness.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 06:10:57 PM
@Black Sheep,

If I sign up for My DSL Web Stats do you think that would help to record faults for OR to view?

I literally can't have another Winter of disconnections cause I work in IT & need my Internet connection.

How much would it be to get an overhead cable from Pole 2 into my house do you know?

cheers
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on June 05, 2016, 06:15:25 PM
It is a complex function, involving both real and imaginary numbers. (The equivalent Hlin function actually shows both real and imaginary values per sub-carrier.) In the broadest sense, it is often useful to consider the Hlog plot to show the equivalence of attenuation over frequency.

In the latter simplistic terms, I try to think of the Hlog graph giving an indication of the attenuation, and how it varies across the frequency spectrum. Most importantly is the need for it to be a nice smooth curve - and this one is precisely that. It is when we see dips and oscillations in this graph that we begin to suspect the line has physical problems.

For what little we can see, there is no evidence of a "smoking gun" . . .

Not even the SNRM graph? The fact it currently reads well above 6dB tells us something ... that either DLM has banded the line, or there was a lot of noise at the time of the last sync, that has now disappeared. That suggests the line suffers from something, even if it isn't currently visible.

The QLN graph isn't too bad - it generally represents a low noise line, with the usual kind of "spikes" from radio stations. For example, around tone 115 - my line has a similar spike.

However, there is something of an extra "bulge" between tones 80 and 110 that isn't the normal kind of spike. It might explain a few missing bits around tone 110 ... but I doubt that it is a portent for a large amount of missing speed.

Just as WWWombat has mentioned, above.

Can we get a look at what these other graphs look like at present? Ta.

but drops out for days if there is cold weather. Heavy rain will lower my connection rate too. How do I prove this problem exists because by the time a OR Engineer arrives the weather has changed

Such intermittent faults are the hardest ones to deal with - for both you and the BT engineer. Persistence in reporting issues certainly helps, as does an ISP that responds to issues quickly.

The best way we can help you is if you keep that monitoring software running as much as you can, catching good days as well as bad - something on there is likely to give us a clue when things go wrong. Not all of the BT engineers want to see the evidence afterwards, but sometimes it can act as a flag, so at least *you* know when things are going wrong.

If I sign up for My DSL Web Stats do you think that would help to record faults for OR to view?

I literally can't have another Winter of disconnections cause I work in IT & need my Internet connection.

It can't do any harm, and it helps people on here easily see all the details relevant to your line.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 06:37:10 PM
@WWWombat,

I have attached todays Bit Loading, HLog & QLN. SNR is 15db approx downstream. The weather is good today, Sun is out so I'm expecting no issues.

Quote
The best way we can help you is if you keep that monitoring software running as much as you can

I'm going to buy a Raspberry Pi & put DSL Stats on it & connect it to the Web DSL Stats
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 05, 2016, 06:38:41 PM
@Black Sheep,

If I sign up for My DSL Web Stats do you think that would help to record faults for OR to view?

I literally can't have another Winter of disconnections cause I work in IT & need my Internet connection.

How much would it be to get an overhead cable from Pole 2 into my house do you know?

cheers

It shouldn't cost you anything. If, as I say, a definitive fault has been identified and there is scope and capacity to feed your premises via an overhead option ...... then I would humbly suggest that would suit not just you, but also Openreach's bottom-line also ??. It would be a far cheaper prospect for them than the alternative 'dig & duct' option.

I have to keep putting the point over though, we are categorically told we must NOT perform speculative changes, we have to PROVE where the fault exists. I absolutely appreciate this is a bane for the EU and if I can play the world's smallest violin for a minute, it is for we engineers too.
Should we attend a fault, and the EU re-reports it a few days later (anything up to 28 days later as a matter of fact), then we are treat like war-criminals until we can provide a defence that states all the required tests passed and their was no actual fault to try and rectify.

Intermittency = woe on all sides of the fence.  ::)

[Moderator edited to fix the mishap with the quotation.]
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 06:45:59 PM
@Black Sheep,

cheers for the input, it helps me better understand the Engineers side of things.

After last Winter & 4 Engineer call outs I'm getting the feeling I'm gona have to end up paying :(
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 05, 2016, 06:50:59 PM
No worries mate.

I do feel for you and your predicament, and money talks so you could ask for the feed to be provided overhead if it fits our scope and has the capacity to do so ???.

But, you may end up paying for this and the intermittent fault may actually be a few hundred mtrs away from the telegraph pole ?? it's a pricey gamble.  :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 05, 2016, 06:56:44 PM
@Black Sheep,

that's a good point, I'll set up my line monitoring tools to catch the errors when the bad weather starts again & take if from there,

cheers for the advice :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 05, 2016, 07:05:43 PM
No worries. I'm a small cog in a big wheel that is Kitz ....... the guys above are especially brilliant at analysing stats, so My DSL is deffo the way to go.
You will be an expert yourself within weeks ............ just watch.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on June 06, 2016, 12:19:52 AM
I have attached todays Bit Loading, HLog & QLN. SNR is 15db approx downstream. The weather is good today, Sun is out so I'm expecting no issues.

Sorry, I really meant the other set of information. These ones:
To see dynamic problems (such as a line dropping in bad weather), we are likely to need to consider graphs over time - particularly the attenuation, SNRM, sync speed, attainable speed graphs, plus the error-tracking graphs (FEC, CRC, ES, SES and retransmission graphs if they apply), plus the DLM-affected data (INP, delay etc from the "telnet data").

Just to see the kind of behaviour being experienced on a good day.

Good luck with the Pi.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 06, 2016, 12:38:51 AM
@WWWombat,

I have DSL Stats running on an old Linux machine I haven't been keeping it on, I will when I get my Pi set up.

I have attached some of the data you requested though. My SNR drops quite a bit at night
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on June 06, 2016, 12:32:37 PM
Thanks.

Those stats tell me some interesting things, but the most important thing to take from them is that you seem to suffer from some big, but intermittent, problems. The route you are taking with the Pi and MDWS is the best thing for now.

First is to note that G.INP is active on both upstream and downstream, which implies DLM has certainly been involved. And both directions show settings for both INP and INPrein in bearer 0; the latter is relatively rare.

At the bottom of the stats, the behaviour in the bottom 5 sub-groupings (from "Latest 15 minutes" through to "Since Link Time") all show a line that is working relatively benignly. Undoubtedly retransmission is working away, and doing a good job - not much makes it through into the serious statistics (the CRC, ES and SES values).

However, the 1st sub-group ("Total Time") show a line in turmoil. Unavailable times of hundreds of seconds is not good (tens of resyncs), and multiple LOS, LOF and LOM - all indications that *sometimes* the line goes AWOL. It isn't good to see these.

The retransmission counters are high in this snapshot, but they can get that way - it becomes important to see how they change over time (through graphs) rather than a snapshot. We'll leave that until MDWS is running.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 06, 2016, 12:44:55 PM
@WWWombat,

cheers for the info, my line resynced last night, up to 7Mb now, I'll look to get my MDWS set up in the next couple of weeks, cheers :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 06, 2016, 03:25:20 PM
Having a lot of errors on my line today, back down to 4Mb,

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: kitzuser87430 on June 06, 2016, 07:54:53 PM
If there are thunderstorms in the general area (100 miles) ES, FEC and CRC's most probably will increase.

Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 06, 2016, 08:44:34 PM
@kitzuser8743,

we had mild rain today, the problems started, we had thunder after but I didn't see any lighting

If this was the case my line is even more prone to the weather conditions than I previously thought
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 06, 2016, 11:20:58 PM
@kitzuser8743,

I don't think it was the weather that caused todays problems, the weather cleared up but the errors have continued
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on June 07, 2016, 12:03:45 AM
Its a tricky process, correlating error rates against external factors.

One prospect would be to correlate the error rate against changes in SNRM. And against resyncs, and changes in speed.

Another prospect is to correlate the FECs, CRCs and ESs against the various retransmission counters.

Another prospect is to correlate them against behaviour from the same time yesterday, or the day before. Or against Monday a week ago.

And another prospect is to correlate them against alterations in the DLM settings, and the various framing parameters. Especially when resyncs keep happening - when we need to figure out why those happen too.

Right now, we're getting lots of little, partial, snapshots. Its a bit like trying to figure the landscape through a fogged windscreen with a tiny bit cleared by the demister...
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 07, 2016, 12:15:34 AM
@WWWombat,

I haven't seen my line so bad in a long time. I usually have no CRC's. It'll take me a couple of weeks to research, order & setup my PI.

On another topic, what's your opinion in making my own RJ45 to RJ11 cable like in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trFUjOPPutM&index=1&list=PLexbWs0Wp_H6LvKLZ6n5fyUknvlMag-Su any benefit?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on June 07, 2016, 12:51:57 AM
I couldn't say, as I've never needed to try anything like that.

However, others on here have gone down that path, best described here:
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15910.0.html
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 01:37:04 PM
My HLog looks messed up, any observations?

I'll order my Raspberry Pi this week & setup Web DSL Stats next week
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2016, 04:27:11 PM
My HLog looks messed up, any observations?

Hmm . . . I wouldn't describe it as messed up. The staircase effect is just an artefact of the scale of the plot versus the granularity of the available data. What is of concern, is that you only have one upstream band available (US0) and two downstream bands available (DS1 & DS2).

The two snapshot graphs that you have attached show that the circuit is in a bad way. (Which really states the obvious, in the light of this thread's subject line.) Once you have a R-Pi setup and regularly harvesting data for uploading to MDWS then there will be sufficient information for WWWombat, say, to analyse.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 04:53:41 PM
@burakkucat,

I set up a MDWS account today, it's on a temporary Linux box. My username is 'MaxPrime'.

According to stats I only have 1 downstream band 'D1'. That must be even worse? What is a band?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2016, 05:34:44 PM
xDSL circuits operate by a frequency division duplex process.

With G.992.1, G.992.3 & G.992.5 (i.e. G.DMT, ADSL2 & ADSL2+) there is an US band that starts above (at a higher frequency) the PSTN (analogue telephony). It is from (about) 30 kHz to (about) 138 kHz. Then from (about) 138 kHz upwards to the upper frequency limit (depending upon the mode; the G.992.x specification) is the DS band. So for those three modes, there is just one US and one DS band.

With G.993.2 (i.e. VDSL2) there are multiple US and DS bands, the actual number allocated for use is set by the profile. The current VDSL2 profile in the UK is 17a. That profile defines three US bands (labelled US0, US1 & US2) and three DS bands (labelled DS1, DS2 & DS3). Those six bands are interleaved across the entire (approximate) 17 MHz bandwidth of profile 17a. From low to high frequencies the sequence is US0, DS1, US1, DS2, US2 & DS3.

Looking at your two shapshot graphs, the Hlog plot indicated to me that the circuit had the potential to use US0, DS1 & DS2 and that also appeared to be the case when the Bit loading plot was also considered.

Look closely at the information reported by the xdslcmd info --pbParams command and you will see information about two band plans displayed. The first is the discovery phase and the second is the medley phase. The initial, discovery, phase shows the bands that could be usable . . . as determined by the modem and DSLAM whilst they are performing their preliminary ritual when achieving synchronisation. The final, medley, phase (also known as "showtime") displays the bands that are actually usable. In your case, you only have one US and one DS band available for use . . . so it is effectively operating just "slightly better" than an ADSL2+ circuit. <Ouch!>  :ouch:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 05:50:19 PM
@burakkucat,

here's my pbParams:

adsl info --pbParams
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    8000
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 1126 Kbps, Downstream rate = 8284 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7064 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32)
DS: (33,707)
                  VDSL Port Details               Upstream                Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:            1126 kbps               8284 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:            10.5 dBm                9.2 dBm
====================================================================================
  VDSL Band Status   U0   U1   U2   U3   U4   D1   D2   D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):   18.4   N/A   N/A   N/A   N/A   36.7   N/A   N/A
Signal Attenuation(dB):   18.4   N/A   N/A   N/A   N/A   58.8   N/A   N/A
        SNR Margin(dB):   13.9   N/A   N/A   N/A   N/A   7.5   N/A   N/A
         TX Power(dBm):   10.5   N/A   N/A   N/A   N/A   9.3   N/A   N/A
 >

Tones 33 to 707 DS should be stable then? But even some of those are missing. Do you know any reasons why they are missing & how I could get more tones?

cheers
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2016, 06:25:00 PM
Looking at what that "pbParams" output shows --

Quote
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps

That is the good news; G.Inp is active on your circuit.  :)

Quote
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7064 Kbps

That is the bad news; it shows your circuit has the bandwidth of G.992.3 (i.e. ADSL2).  :(

Quote
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32)
DS: (33,707)

Confirmed by the "showtime" band plan.  :ouch:

The above was the easy part.

The difficult part now begins. Once sufficient data has been recorded, analysing it to understand what is causing the circuit to operate so poorly. At the moment, nobody can say.  :shrug2:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 06:31:57 PM
@burakkucat,

I noticed when I use my treadmill in my garage my SNR drops significantly. It's at the opposite side of the house from the telephone pole. There is an Electrical transformer besides my neighbour's house close to the pole too.

The line under my house is old & it probably has no EMI shielding on it either.

Do you think I should be getting higher speeds even though I am 2.8km from my cabinet? I'm more worried about the disconnections than speed
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2016, 06:47:55 PM
Do you think I should be getting higher speeds even though I am 2.8km from my cabinet?

At that sort of distance you are really at the limit as to what a VDSL2 circuit can deliver.

Quote
I'm more worried about the disconnections than speed.

I think that the disconnections should be treated as the priority . . . a stable but slow circuit is perfectly usable. Here follows the result of a typical speedtest at The Cattery --

Code: [Select]
[Duo2 ~]$ speedtest_cli --simple
Ping: 69.239 ms
Download: 4.36 Mbit/s
Upload: 0.82 Mbit/s
[Duo2 ~]$

Slow, stable and, thus, perfectly usable.  ;)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 06:54:05 PM
@burakkucat,

yeah absolutely, I can't go through another Winter with my broadband disconnecting for days at a time
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 07:36:34 PM
What does the BT availability estimate say for your line you can post the results and remove your telephone number by using this link www.dslchecker.bt.com (http://www.dslchecker.bt.com)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 07:40:29 PM
@NewtronStar,

It says 7.3Mb max, but I usually get 8Mb, it used to say 9Mb
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 08:02:35 PM
After seeing that don't think i'll be moaning any time soon about my VDSL2 1km line, It's showing your line to be in Range A clean with no external or internal wiring issues.

But your line is much better than with ADSL2+ and ADSLMax, when was the last time your line disconnected ?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 08:06:54 PM
@NewtronStar,

disconnection during last night: 16hrs & 38mins ago
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 08:18:58 PM
@NewtronStar,

disconnection during last night: 16hrs & 38mins ago

Did your SNRm suddenly fall before your line was disconnected
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 08:21:02 PM
@NewtronStar,

I'm not sure, I didn't have stats running. I usually get disconnections during; cold weather, wet weather & night time though.

I'll keep my linux box running tonight to see what happens
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 08:48:49 PM
Yeap seeing your stats on MDWS that should give a better idea or clue into those disconnections.

Cold weather on the metallic pathway should contract the cable and the same during the night time as for wet/water if the A & B pairs are damaged exposing both the two metal wires to water then that acts like a short circuit.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 08:51:51 PM
@NewtronStar,

I had a Senior Openreach Engineer out & he said the same thing about the underground line into my house.

Proving it's the problem is an issue though.

Was raining yesterday but it's been good weather today
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 09:24:00 PM
I would prefer the last 20 meters to the home to fead by a drop cable/wire much easier to fix than underground cable even though it is exposed to the wind rain heat and cold and radio frequency interference 24/7.

But if you don't have any as I to call them telegraph poles close to your premises it's going to cost someone.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 09:29:14 PM
@NewtronStar,

there's a pole about 50 metres from my house. How much would it be to get an overhead cable installed to replace the underground cable?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 09:47:58 PM
@NewtronStar,

there's a pole about 50 metres from my house. How much would it be to get an overhead cable installed to replace the underground cable?

50 meters sounds fine to me my telegraph pole with the dropwire is 43 meters to the house as for the OR cost for re-siting your current feed to a dropwire you will need to ask BlackSheep
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2016, 10:17:33 PM
Retrain Reason : 200000 200000 what the hell is this
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 14, 2016, 10:33:03 PM
50 meters sounds fine to me my telegraph pole with the dropwire is 43 meters to the house as for the OR cost for re-siting your current feed to a dropwire you will need to ask BlackSheep

I've covered this elsewhere regarding practicalities etc ....... but costings are not my 'thang' I'm afraid.  :) :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2016, 10:53:42 PM
I'm guessing that the correct method would be to contact the ISP/CP and request that they make arrangements for an Openreach planning visit, in respect of replacing the current underground service feed with an aerial drop.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2016, 11:37:39 PM
I've only just seen the QLN plot and that is also a horror story . . .
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 14, 2016, 11:51:30 PM
@burakkucat,

I've been disconnected since 20:30, back on BT Home Hub 5A, what do you mean horror story?

@NewtronStar,

"Retrain Reason : 200000" - what does it mean?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 15, 2016, 05:42:16 PM
Guys what do the Traffic Lights mean on MDWS?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 15, 2016, 09:04:14 PM
Guys what do the Traffic Lights mean on MDWS?

If you left-click on the traffic lights, a window will open and show all the current relevant data for your circuit. See the attachment, below --
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 15, 2016, 09:15:31 PM
Thanks @burakkucat,

my noise margin is up so my speed is down at the moment.

I don't think I'll see CRC errors again until my speed is increased & noise margin lowered
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 16, 2016, 05:02:41 PM
Guys,

I had a disconnect today with CRC's recorded on my DSL Stats but not on MDWS. Is this a bug?

It happened 2 nights ago too.

Edit: but strange CRC's on the G.INP graph - why?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: tbailey2 on June 16, 2016, 06:52:17 PM
Hi

Those two graphs are for different stats - the DSLstats one is for Bearer 0 while that for MDWS is for Bearer 1.

You may not see stats for all minutes in MDWS on the 24 hours graph as, in your case, the graph is 680 pixels wide but there are 1440 minutes in a day so over half get discarded for that plot.

But I've checked in the raw database and there were no CRC errors at all uploaded to MDWS within the period that is shown on the DSLstats graph, certainly not between 12:38 and 12:48 .


 
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 16, 2016, 06:57:00 PM
@tbailey2,

I would guess my line gets disconnected due to a very quick spike in CRC's. I get a new connection & the stats are recorded on my machine. By the time I get a connection to MDWS the CRC's are gone & are not recorded?

Edit 1: the end points of these graphs seem to coincide?

Edit 2: Actually the same thing happened yesterday morning too, image attached
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 16, 2016, 11:05:35 PM
You will definitely notice when a resync has occurred when you see a spike of severely errored seconds when monitoring stats don't how or why this happens but it's become the norm and I just just discount those error's



Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 16, 2016, 11:34:57 PM
@NewtronStar,

the solid line in your graph indicated that there was no disconnection I believe?

My graphs show a disconnection (dashed line) followed by a decreasing number of CRC's - that would indicate to me there was a large spike of errors which caused the disconnections abruptly, when the connection was reestablished the number of CRC's decreased quickly
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 16, 2016, 11:46:26 PM
@NewtronStar,

the solid line in your graph indicated that there was no disconnection I believe?

It was a DLM resync with no CRC errors before or during the event just a spike of SES's
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 16, 2016, 11:53:57 PM
@NewtronStar,

sorry, I see what you are saying now, I thought your graphs were CRC graphs.

MDWS doesn't show that I had any Error Seconds today but MyDSL stats does; attached
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: tbailey2 on June 17, 2016, 07:26:20 AM
A bit early in the morning to be looking through the database records but you had a resync at the time those 11 ES occurred yesterday (12:45)  and were recorded locally on DSLstats. That dropped the connection and so you missed the upload at 12:45 while it reconnected - that upload would have had the data for those ES in so MDWS never saw it. They are recorded by DSLstats as delta values. i.e. the difference between the previous value and the current one so it goes back to zero again if there are no further ES.

Similarly you missed an upload at 0248 this morning due to a resync.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 17, 2016, 07:43:21 AM
@tbailey2,

it would be better if DSL Stats uploaded the info from the disconnection to the reconnection so the circumstances of the disconnection are recorded imo
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: roseway on June 17, 2016, 07:59:14 AM
That would be my job, but it would be quite difficult to implement, and limited time means that I won't be able to do it in the near future.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 17, 2016, 08:13:07 AM
@roseway,

is the upload delta 5 minutes? If the upload is missed the 5 minutes data is lost? Could it be reduced to 1 minute if so? I suppose that would introduce performance issues?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: tbailey2 on June 17, 2016, 08:34:05 AM
@tbailey2,

it would be better if DSL Stats uploaded the info from the disconnection to the reconnection so the circumstances of the disconnection are recorded imo

Likely to be very difficult I'm afraid due to the workload of people voluntary involved in the project. You have to bear in mind that all of this system is provided totally free by three different people who have other things to do in life.

In my own case, I estimate that if I had coded and supported this as a commercial venture over the past two years instead of for free, I'd be at least £75,000 better off... The voluntary donations purely go towards recovering actual costs since the project was started - and this is still in deficit.

EDIT:
Sorry missed Eric's post. The delta is one minute currently.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 17, 2016, 08:52:16 AM
@tbailey2,

very impressive for 3 people, congrats on that. DSL Stats written in C++ probably across multiple platforms would be a difficult & then hooking it up to the web component would be extra difficult.

So basically in future the enhancement would be to upload the DSL Stats information from when the broadband connection is reestablished to when DSL Stats reestablishes connection to MDWS.

I'll make a donation soon to get the upgraded MDWS. Planning a Raspberry Pi at the moment but it's more complex than I thought to get a good rig set up & more expensive too. I think I'm better sticking with my old Linux box in the meantime.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 17, 2016, 10:58:06 PM
@roseway,

thought about the problem, did some pseudo code if you are interested:


vector<Upload> pendingUploads;

while (running) {
   if (currentTime - lastUpdateTime >= delta) {
      Upload newUpload(data, lastUpdateTime, delta);
      
      if (dslConnected && MDWSConnected) {
         for (Upload pendingUpload : pendingUploads) {
            uploadToMDWS(pendingUpload);
         }
         uploadToMDWS(newUpload);
      }
      else if (dslConnected && !MDWSConnected) {
         pendingUploads.append(mewUpload);
      }

      lastUpdateTime = currentTime;
   }
}
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on June 17, 2016, 11:12:47 PM
Should be:

Code: [Select]
pendingUploads.append(newUpload)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: roseway on June 17, 2016, 11:24:57 PM
Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm afraid there's a lot more to it than that. I really don't have the necessary time available.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 17, 2016, 11:32:14 PM
@roseway,

I was thinking it would be more difficult but was hoping there'd be an easy solution
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 23, 2016, 10:05:25 AM
I have long suspected the noise on my line at night is caused by street lights which run over the underground telephone cable for 8oo metres

I got a lot of errors last night, attached

There is 1 broken street light. Was the 120,000 FEC's caused by a SHINE burst?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 24, 2016, 12:43:44 PM
Hi Guys,

today's MDWS emails tell me my disconnections are due to:

- 8000 Loss of Service
- 1 Remote Defect Indicator/DLM

What's the difference between these?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 24, 2016, 10:43:04 PM
A street light effecting broadband my dropwire is close to street lamp less than 4 meters away when there was a fault with this lamp it would not come on and when it did it starts up then dims in a few minutes and the cycle continues until the council with there cheery picker arrives to replace the bulb.

During these events it has not caused any issue on my sensitive broadband circuit   :fingers:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 24, 2016, 10:45:52 PM
@NewtronStar,

take a look at my MDWS, past 2 nights there's been a lot of noise
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NEXUS2345 on June 24, 2016, 11:17:34 PM
I would personally say that looking at the last 24 hours, streetlights would have very little to do with it. The last resync was at around 15:00, a time when streetlights should be completely inactive. I cannot comment on what it might be as I am very inexperienced in this matter, but the evidence shown suggests nothing to do with streetlights, at least, not unless you live in a scandinavian country.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 24, 2016, 11:20:52 PM
@NewtronStar,

the resync at 15:00 was caused by me installing a new high speed RJ11 cable to reduce noise & attenuation which it did slightly, resulted in higher SNR margin as expected which was good
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 24, 2016, 11:23:36 PM
I am sorry but with only 24 hours worth of data on MDWS any opinion into whats up on your line  would be a shot in the dark  :-\
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 24, 2016, 11:28:19 PM
@NewtronStar,

no worries, cheers for taking a look.

I've attached 10 days SNR Margin stats if any1's interested in having a guess why I get so much noise at night
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 24, 2016, 11:52:33 PM
That looks like the SNRm decreasing on a longer line during the evening time due to RFI and the relents during the daytime and so on, have a look at your SNRm and then my own for the same 10 day period.



Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 24, 2016, 11:58:19 PM
@NewtronStar,

sorry I posted my max attainable rate. I attached my SNR margin now.

Yeah I think you are right, but why have the past 2 nights been worse, my SNR during the day is 9db which is eating my speed
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 25, 2016, 12:10:19 AM
I would see the SNRm lowering just like your odd SNRm in the last two days when nearby T/Storms are in the area and I know there has been that sort of activity on the 23rd and 24th with mad rainfall
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 25, 2016, 12:13:30 AM
@NewtronStar,

we've had some pretty heavy rain the past couple of days, no Thunder or lightning though, but maybe there was more electricity in the atmosphere, good point, cheers
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 25, 2016, 06:32:21 PM
Guys,

does any1 know why the Tones are missing in my Tone Graph?

It is 1 downstream band of Tones not 2, they should be there imo
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on June 25, 2016, 10:20:00 PM
Unfortunately that looks like the normal power cut-back zone to stop VDSL interfering with ADSL it looks worse on your circuit as you don't have much bits per tones and it falls off showing no tones or bits available in that area.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 25, 2016, 10:37:13 PM
I agree with N*Star's analysis and will add a subsidiary comment that from the extent of the power cut-back, it appears that your cabinet is quite some distance from its associated (telephony serving) exchange.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 25, 2016, 10:44:49 PM
Cheers guys, I wasn't aware of that scenario,

Basically I'm screwed cause of the distance 2.8km

Edit: should I not have some bits there at least?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 25, 2016, 11:01:48 PM
There are two distances that really need to be considered for a cabinet based G.993.2 (VDSL2) service.

The first is the most obvious one . . . the distance between the end user and the cabinet. That, by consideration of the the attenuation per unit length of the metallic pathway, will define the absolute maximum synchronisation speed achievable.

The second distance, that of the cabinet from its serving telephony exchange, is directly proportional to the degree of power cut-back applied to the G.993.2 transceiver's output. The power cut-back is required so that the G.992.1/G.992.3/G.992.5 (ADSL/ADSL2/ADSL2+) signals, originating from exchange based equipment, are not "drowned out" by the presence of the G.993.2 signals injected into the cable bundle at the fibre cabinet location. Basically, an attempt is made to try to keep all the signals in the D-side cable bundles at equal power levels.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 25, 2016, 11:13:11 PM
@burakkucat,

I didn't know that, my cabinet is about 3km from the exchange too, so that's bad for me too

Openreach should phase out ADSL then
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on June 25, 2016, 11:17:38 PM
So, if I get this right, the further away the end user is away from the cabinet and the exchange, the worse this issue becomes?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 25, 2016, 11:19:41 PM
@William Grimsley,

they restrict the VDSL to reduce Cross Talk with ADSL services

the longer the line the more they have to restrict - if I've read right
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 26, 2016, 12:27:44 AM
Let me try to put together a purely fictitious example . . .

Consider a very small telephone exchange (back in the early 1970s it would have been an UAX13, today it is a System X remote concentrator) located in village A. It provides a telephone service to residents of village A and also that of the next adjacent village, B. Villages A & B are 3 kilometres apart. There are no PCPs associated with that exchange; all residents (of both villages) are connected by "exchange only" lines. For this example, we will concentrate on two properties in each village. The two in village A, EU-A1 and EU-A2, are the immediate, next door, neighbours to the exchange building. The two in village B, EU-B1 and EU-B2, are next door neighbours, by the duck-pond.

In the beginning, the only means of Internet access was by a dial-up service. EU-A1, -A2, -B1 and -B2 all had equally performing dial-up services.

Then a G.992.1 based broadband service became available from the exchange. Due to the relative distances from the exchange building, EU-A1 and EU-A2 obtained the full 8 Mbps DS for their broadband services whilst EU-B1 and EU-B2, being 3 km distant from the exchange, only obtained 3.5 Mbps DS for their broadband services.

Eventually money was found so that AIO cabinets could be installed in both villages, one outside the exchange building in village A and the other near to the duck-pond in village B. (Both of those AIO cabinets are fed from a fibre head-end exchange in the nearest major town, a long way away.) The new G.993.2 (VDSL2) service is announced as available to residents in both villages. In village A, EU-A1 is quite happy with his (exchange based) G.992.1 service and so does not upgrade. His next door neighbour, EU-A2, does upgrade and chooses the 80/20 Mbps DS/US service.Over in village B, EU-B1 looks at the estimated speed for the new service and she decide to upgrade to the G.993.2 (VDSL2) service. Her neighbour, EU-B2 decides that the current G.992.1 service is perfectly good enough for all that he requires (sending e-mail messages, etc).

All four residents occasionally meet together. Their conversation eventually turns to their respective broadband services. EU-A1 and EU-B2 still have the same throughput speed as when the first (exchange based) broadband service became available. EU-A2 boasts that his throughput speed has increased by nearly a factor of ten. (Originally 8 Mbps DS synchronisation speed; now a 80 Mbps DS synchronisation speed.) EU-B1 sulks because, although she is the same distance from the AIO cabinet in village B as EU-A2 is from the AIO cabinet in village A, she does not get the same throughput speed as EU-A2. ("'Snot fair! I pay the same as you.", etc, etc.)

The reason for the difference between the DS throughput speeds obtained by EU-A2 and EU-B1 is down the the power cut-back of the respective G.993.2 transceivers in each cabinet. The transceiver of the AIO cabinet in village A has a minimal (or no) power cut-back. The transceiver of the AIO cabinet in village B has a significant power cut-back.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 26, 2016, 08:11:42 AM
@burakkucat,

cheers for the info, I'm doubly screwed due to my distances.

Openreach should look to phase out ADSL to customers connected to Fiber cabinets - no need for power cut backs then.

Edit: Any Ideas why the other cracks in my Tone Graph occur?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 26, 2016, 09:10:03 AM
Impossible ask I'm afraid .............. ALL Cabs will have a hybrid of ADSL and VDSL, if a DSLAM has been provided. You'd be asking the EU to chose between having VDSL broadband, or nothing ?? I think a certain Cat on these forums would hiss and spit at that scenario.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 26, 2016, 09:17:52 AM
@Black Sheep,

ADSL is the past, if OR want to get the best performance out of their infrastructure it would make sense

We used to all have dial up & it's been replaced for example
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: c6em on June 26, 2016, 11:10:53 AM
Impossible ask I'm afraid .............. ALL Cabs will have a hybrid of ADSL and VDSL, if a DSLAM has been provided. You'd be asking the EU to chose between having VDSL broadband, or nothing ?? I think a certain Cat on these forums would hiss and spit at that scenario.  ;) ;D

While I agree with you...
That's what they are doing  out in Jersey
They are going for full FTTP and all the ADSL related equipment is being switched off and the users given two options
FTTP at a much greater price or nothing: sign on the dotted line by day x or your service will be cut off.

I do see though the UK moving to where the local cabs provides all the services whether that is ADSL, GPON/FTTP, VDSL or POTS and all the local exchanges closed down leaving just mega regional exchanges feeding thousands of local cabs.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 26, 2016, 11:15:27 AM
@Black Sheep,

ADSL is the past, if OR want to get the best performance out of their infrastructure it would make sense

We used to all have dial up & it's been replaced for example

Pipe-dream I'm afraid. You would have to opt for c6em's offerings in his post above ….. full FTTP. We ALL know this would be the best thing, but we ALL know it isn't going to happen in the next 20yrs.
So unfortunately, unless ADSL does get totally switched off …… which it won't ….. you will always have power cut-backs I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: loonylion on June 26, 2016, 12:51:14 PM
Could be done by provisioning ADSL from the cabs rather than the exchange, but the LLU operators wouldn't like that.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on June 26, 2016, 07:59:55 PM
Jesus .......... there'd be no room on the streets for pedestrians because of street furniture !! Get real, this aint gonna happen .... ever.  :) :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 28, 2016, 01:45:54 PM
Guys,

why are my tones disappearing?

E.g. the block of tones around the 650 mark have gone missing in the last 4 days
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 28, 2016, 04:53:43 PM
I would not like to guess. Please remember to only consider the graphs once you have checked the current band plan for the "showtime" (medley) phase for you circuit.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 28, 2016, 05:06:25 PM
@burakkucat,

the DS Medley band is 33 to 667

I used to get 8.3Mb, I've been down to 6.3Mb for a couple of weeks now
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on June 28, 2016, 06:25:11 PM
Hmm . . . Quite a number of sub-carriers (tones) have, therefore, been "knocked out". I really don't have any feeling as to what is happening with your circuit.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 28, 2016, 06:27:40 PM
@burakkucat,

it looks to me that the tones are being eroded probably due to the corrosion of the line under my house?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on June 29, 2016, 01:33:10 PM
Guys,

What causes a "Defect Indicator/DLM" noted in the MDWS emails?

Bad connection today
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 02:51:51 PM
Guys,

I have an OR Engineer coming on Tuesday. I've had a lot of drop outs the past few days due to rain.

In my opinion the line from the pole to my house needs replaced.

What's the best way to convince them because I need this fixed, it's been cutting out for half a year now

Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 01, 2016, 06:48:29 PM
It's hard to tell a tradesman how to do their job, he/she will already know were to start looking if they find a fault on your line, all you could do is tell them the type of symptoms your having with your Broadband and that might help during the OR investigation.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 01, 2016, 06:59:13 PM
If you told the CEO of Openreach what you'd like replaced, I'm sure this will passed to the relevant Openreach engineer.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 01, 2016, 07:26:07 PM
If you told the CEO of Openreach what you'd like replaced, I'm sure this will passed to the relevant Openreach engineer.
was that sarcasm? I do hope so.
i don't think OR spend the millions they do training staff to just override their professional  diagnosis because an end user emailed the CEO what they think is wrong. I'm pretty sure if it worked that way the CEO would be spending most of his day answering emails.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 07:48:20 PM
I get the feeling they'll do anything not to replace the line.

For the past few months each time I experienced cut outs I was told the problem was "at the Exchange" but I didn't believe it.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
Are there different types of cables? Is there a telephone cable equivalent of Cat7 ethernet cable?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 01, 2016, 08:07:55 PM
Not sarcasm, we emailed the CEO of Openreach about the issues we've had with our line (I tell you it was a very long email) and within a week all the line had been replaced up the lane.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 08:09:11 PM
@William Grimsley,

if my line isn't fixed this time, I think I will have no option but to email him also
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 01, 2016, 08:13:18 PM
I get the feeling they'll do anything not to replace the line.

For the past few months each time I experienced cut outs I was told the problem was "at the Exchange" but I didn't believe it.

Max the fault may not be on the dropwire itself it could be a joint on the pairs is failing near the top of the pole were the distribution box resides or an underground joint is exposed to water ingress or even where the dropwire enters the end-users premises.

That is three scenario's I can think of at the moment unless other members can see another situation I have missed.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 08:18:29 PM
@NewtronStar,

a senior OR Engineer stripped back the ends of the drop wire that crosses the road & checked the joints.

He said the underground cable from the 2nd pole into my house could be the problem.

Do you know if OR have EMI shielded cables? If I need cables replaced I'd prefer they were shielded
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 01, 2016, 08:34:41 PM
He said the underground cable from the 2nd pole into my house could be the problem.
Do you know if OR have EMI shielded cables? If I need cables replaced I'd prefer they were shielded

There should be two pairs from PCP cabinet to your Premises if the current pair has become volatile they can test the second pair and if this pair looks much better than the current pair then a Pair Swap seems the best & cheapest route to go down.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 01, 2016, 08:53:01 PM
MaximusPrime, what speed did you get on ADSL, I seriously wouldn't have bought fibre for a 6 Mbps connection...
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 09:44:29 PM
@NewtronStar,

The senior OR engineer did a d-side swap already, I believe there is only 1 pair from the distribution point into my home

@William Grimsley,

I got a 2.6mb it then went down to 2Mb from ADSL & the connection became really unstable. I used to get 8.3Mb on my fibre connection until recently
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 01, 2016, 10:09:24 PM
@NewtronStar,

The senior OR engineer did a d-side swap already, I believe there is only 1 pair from the distribution point into my home

So are saying you have a single pair from the distribution pole and have 2 pairs underground all the way to the PCP cabinet ? 
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 10:14:53 PM
@NewtronStar,

I am unsure if there are 1 or 2 pairs between the distribution point & the PCP but I was with the Senior Engineer while he was working & I only noticed 1 pair coming into the main socket in my home & he did not mention a second pair that he could switch the socket to

The line under my home was installed 34 years ago so the standards then may have been different
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 01, 2016, 10:28:43 PM
I seriously would've stayed with ADSL and demanded your line was renewed.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 10:32:24 PM
@William Grimsley,

1 of the reasons I chose Fibre was because they send an Engineer to install it, I was facing problems with my ADSL so I thought they would have fixed the line

They also give you a HHB5 & I needed a new router. I ended up having to buy my own router in the end to get decent speed
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 01, 2016, 10:45:46 PM
But, surely you had the connection fee etc. :no:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 01, 2016, 10:52:15 PM
@William Grimsley,

connection fee was £35 so I thought it would have been worth it for an Engineer to check my line.

The problem is intermittent so it wasn't picked up but the drop outs are becoming more regular as time goes on

There's a big difference in 2Mb & 8Mb, 2Mb is junk, 8Mb is acceptable
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 05, 2016, 04:19:39 PM
Just after getting the cable from the post replaced

Any1 have analysis on the new performance?

MDWS Id: MaxPrime
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 05, 2016, 09:08:56 PM
We will need to review the circuit statistics over the next 24 hour period.

I've just had a sudden thought . . . Was it a network technician (PSTN) who replaced the final drop? Or was it a multi-skilled, broadband adept technician (one from Black Sheep's flock)? Basically, I am wondering if a "circuit recalc" has been performed.  :-\
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 05, 2016, 09:21:37 PM
@burakkucat,

I'm not sure what the Engineer's title was. He replaced the cable between both poles & installed a drop wire using 1 piece of cable so there'd be no joint, 100m approx, he used a higher gauge cable than the 1 he replaced. He ran an ethernet cable from the attic into the NTE to finish the connection. He then performed a DLM reset.

Highest max attainable I've ever had, lower line attenuation, upstream used to be locked at 14db SNR but its close to 6db now

Hopefully this will be the end of my trouble :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 05, 2016, 09:42:40 PM
Ah, thank you for providing those further details. After reading them, I can say that it appears you have had the services of a multi-skilled technician who has performed all the relevant broadband related tasks.  :)  :dance:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 05, 2016, 09:44:58 PM
@burakkucat,

yeah he seemed to know what he was doing :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 05, 2016, 11:38:16 PM
And once G.INP is applied back on to your line it should look even better, and DLM reset had given you Interleaving no way would your line hold with fastpath instated for a month or even 2 days
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 05, 2016, 11:57:20 PM
Unfortunately something happened at 2317 hours . . .  :(
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 07:37:15 AM
@burakkucat,

sorry I switched the Linux box running DSL Stats off. I have a restless night if I leave it on in case something happens, no disconnects last night tho
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 03:24:49 PM
Just after having an hour disconnection, graphs attached

Is it normal to have a Max Data Rate of 11Mb but yet the line be unreliable at a distance 2.8km from the cabinet?

Or have is there yet more problem with my line? or was this DLM?

The Senior Engineer who came out a while back believed my line would have "multiple problems"
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2016, 03:36:43 PM
The circuit has gone crazy!  :crazy:

The Hlog plot is showing a metallic pathway defect, there are SES per hour being logged, DS CRC per minute in the thousands, DS FEC per minute in the hundreds of thousands, SNRM "all over the place" and nine resynchronisation events have been logged over the last 24 hours.

  :(   :-X
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 03:40:30 PM
@burakkucat,

how can you tell there's a "metallic pathway defect" from looking at the HLog? What does it mean & why's it caused?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2016, 04:07:01 PM
I've been "reading" Hlog plots for many years and so, at a glance, I can see that there is a problem.

Look at the image I've attached, below. See the segment of the curve to the right of the cursor? It should not look like that, it should be a smooth curve . . .

Unfortunately I am unable to say what is the cause and, thus, how to fix the defect.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 04:13:39 PM
@burakkucat,

HLog is the attenuation per tone? My HLog seems to have went back to normal

There seems to be a problem when it is raining.

There is a junction half way down the main cable.

Could the maintenance duct being filled with rain cause this?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2016, 04:25:11 PM
HLog is the attenuation per tone?

Yes, it can be considered as that.

Quote
My HLog seems to have went back to normal

When the last resynchronisation event occurred at 1607 hours.

Quote
There seems to be a problem when it is raining.

There is a junction half way down the main cable.

Could the maintenance duct being filled with rain cause this?

If your problems are rain related, it would not be down to water in a duct . . .

Many ducts (and the cables contained therein) across the whole of the Openreach access network are permanently water-logged.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 04:27:56 PM
@burakkucat,

what could it be then? I've already had a d-side swap from pole to junction box.

What's the next step I should take to get this fixed?

Maybe the main underground cable is just to old?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 06, 2016, 04:33:43 PM
You know what I'd do?! Go back to ADSL.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 04:35:53 PM
@William Grimsley,

I already had ADSL & it cut out constantly too
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 06, 2016, 04:43:48 PM
But, you're paying for a service that's more expensive than ADSL!
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2016, 04:52:27 PM
what could it be then? I've already had a d-side swap from pole to junction box.

What's the next step I should take to get this fixed?

Maybe the main underground cable is just to old?

Could you obtain & set up a Raspberry-Pi to enable you to constantly gather circuit statistics and upload to MDWS? We really need to see a sequence of days and not N hours of monitoring every 24 hours.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 06, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
Just watching that line crumble, quite exciting to watch. Sorry, I'm so sad aren't I? :P

Why isn't G.INP active? That would help the line so much!
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 06:50:39 PM
@burakkucat,

could the problem be a leak in the Distribution Point? My DP is bent, image attached

yeah, I'll buy a Pi if I can't get this sorted


@William Grimsley,

I'm not going back to ADSL, it sucks, too slow for me, I'm 6km from the exchange
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 06, 2016, 06:53:09 PM
Ouch, that looks a bit bent.

Ahh, 6 km, barely get a service then! What is your BT Broadband Availability Checker result?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 06:59:49 PM
@William Grimsley,

availability checker is wrong, my actuals are a lot higher:
   
VDSL Range A (Clean)    5.8    3.3    1.2    0.8    --    Available    --    --
VDSL Range B (Impacted)    5.8    2.3    1.2    0.5    --    Available    --    --
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 06, 2016, 07:15:52 PM
Bit like me but sort of shows why you can't get Openreach to fix your fault.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2016, 07:36:08 PM
could the problem be a leak in the Distribution Point?

If it is a result of water ingress into the DP then I would not expect the fault to come & go as abruptly as it does.

Quote
My DP is bent, image attached

The actual DP is at the top of that pole. It is the rectangular box just below the "halo" ring to which the various drop cables are attached. What is seen further down the pole is just an arc of excess cable which is entering a joint closure. (I refer to such joint closures as "giants' thimbles".)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 07:59:17 PM
@burakkucat,

then could the leak be in the joint enclosure?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2016, 08:28:53 PM
then could the leak be in the joint enclosure?

Yes, that is a possibility but, once again, I would not expect the problem to "come and go" so abruptly, as if someone was operating a switch.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 06, 2016, 08:32:04 PM
@burakkucat,

then could the leak be in the joint enclosure?

should there not be 2 gel crimps also inside the enclosure which stops moisture affecting your pairs
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 06, 2016, 09:27:57 PM
@burakkucat, @NewtronStar,

my disconnections seem to be preceded by lots of FEC's & then CRC's, could these errors be caused by rain?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 06, 2016, 11:29:55 PM
Once you have the RPi up and running you can use uk weather radar and see if the rain and DSL stats have something in common.

 
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 07, 2016, 12:12:17 AM
@NewtronStar,

I can see if it's raining out my window lol :)

Strange HLog & Quite Line before I go to bed, attached
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: roseway on July 07, 2016, 07:14:32 AM
Do remember that HLog and QLN are only snapshots of conditions at the time of the last resync. They aren't updated in real time.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 07, 2016, 07:21:06 AM
True, though with the state of his line, it's nearly like real time!

At least G.INP has come on, you can see how well the line is performing now!
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 07, 2016, 08:34:29 AM
@roseway, @William Grimsley,

cheers, yeah with all the re connections HLog seemed to be in real time :)

10.7Mb downstream today, no rain, supposedly going to rain at the weekend so I'll see if it's the cause then
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: renluop on July 07, 2016, 08:58:00 AM
Excuse me for butting in with what may be a silly question.

Are QLN and Hlog in anyway technically related?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 07, 2016, 09:08:22 AM
@renluop,

from my understanding but I might be wrong:

- HLog shows the Attenuation per tone
- Quite Line shows how much noise there is per tone

The lower the values the poorer the quality of the tones

The 2 graphs are probably combined with other info to give your tone graph...
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: roseway on July 07, 2016, 10:32:56 AM
@renluop: QLN and HLog are quite different things. The only connection is that both are measured immediately before sync.

QLN (Quiet Line Noise) is a measure of the background noise on the line over the frequency range in the absence of any DSL activity.

HLog (Logarithmic Channel Characteristics Function) is effectively the gain of the line over the frequency range, in logarithmic units (dB). This is the inverse of attenuation.

Quote
The 2 graphs are probably combined with other info to give your tone graph...

No, that's not the case. All the other reported values are determined in real time.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 07, 2016, 10:48:18 AM
@roseway,

are the HLog & QLN values used by the LCP (Link Connection Protocol) when establishing connections? Resulting in your connection rate?

Was I right in saying the lower the values of these graphs results in lower quality of the tones?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: roseway on July 07, 2016, 12:38:32 PM
LCP is concerned with authenticating the internet connection after sync. So it's not related to the connection speed.

I'm no expert on HLog and QLN, so I'm afraid I can't help with your other questions.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 07, 2016, 05:22:11 PM
Tiniest bit of rain & I've had disconnections, could there be a problem with the new line that was installed?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 07, 2016, 06:02:59 PM
There clearly is a circuit fault but the problem is identifying "what and where". Fifteen resynchronisation events in the last 24 hours.  :(

If you are located in the Surrey hills, to the south east of Guildford, I am sure that Walter would be willing to trundle the wheelbarrow around to your location and initiate a comprehensive infrastructure review & circuit monitoring session.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 07, 2016, 08:41:21 PM
Eeek, look at the line now! :-X
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 07, 2016, 10:40:32 PM
Yeah I'm disappointed, been working on getting reliable broadband for a year & a half now since my ADSL started cutting out

I finally get a 10Mb line & it cuts out on the slightest bit of rain  >:(

Fix 1 problem, gets another  :(
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: renluop on July 08, 2016, 07:32:08 AM
.....
If you are located in the Surrey hills, to the south east of Guildford, I am sure that Walter would be willing to trundle the wheelbarrow around to your location and initiate a comprehensive infrastructure review & circuit monitoring session.
Is he still about? I looked at his record: he hasn't posted here since February. Do hope he's OK!
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 09:04:08 AM
Rained this morning, no cut out

Could the disconnections have been caused by DLM getting used to the new line?

Edit: cut out again but it stopped raining
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 09:43:40 AM
Nope, your line is still dropping out more than what DLM would induce. I really don't know what to say now, I think you're going to have to either put with the service or go back to ADSL, I'd choose the latter.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 09:47:19 AM
@William Grimsley,

as I said, I had ADSL & it cut out too
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 09:53:30 AM
Right, ok I best not try and discuss that with you then, countless times I've said that you're paying for a more expensive service for no noticeable gain in speed, I really wouldn't have bought FTTC with those line estimates either.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 08, 2016, 09:54:27 AM
It's an odd suggestion to go back to ADSL. With FTTC you know any phone line fault is between you and the cabinet so should be a relatively easy fix.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 09:59:42 AM
I knew that... ::)

But, by the sounds of it, there looks like there's no way of fixing this fault, as you can probably identify by the thread length...
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 08, 2016, 10:06:42 AM
I don't think the thread length is related to the number of Openreach visits, is it?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 10:09:03 AM
@Dray,

there's only been 1 Openreach visit since the thread started. I've had 5 call outs but only 2 where works been done.

Testing the line with my HHB5 at the moment
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 08, 2016, 10:29:08 AM
As you know, the only way to get this fixed is by an Openreach visit. I imagine you're trying to gain enough knowledge to advise the technician what action to take - that could work or have the opposite effect. For my problems, the best approach, the one that worked, was friendly chat but in deference to his greater expertise.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 10:56:12 AM
@Dray,

at this point I feel like giving up on it, the current problem could be major or it could be small

I'd revert back to ADSL but I could run into the same problem again
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 11:02:19 AM
Hmm, I applaude you for continuing with this to try and get it sorted, but there has to be a time where you do have to potentially give up on something. Why not contact your ISP and see if they could do a good deal on FTTC if not ADSL.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2016, 12:17:50 PM
As you know, the only way to get this fixed is by an Openreach visit. I imagine you're trying to gain enough knowledge to advise the technician what action to take - that could work or have the opposite effect. For my problems, the best approach, the one that worked, was friendly chat but in deference to his greater expertise.

Ha ha ...... he knows ^^^^.  ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 01:23:25 PM
Another Engineer coming tomorrow,

Last 2 BT Retail Customer support agents said "PPPoE connection is down" - what does this mean?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 08, 2016, 05:12:36 PM
"PPPoE connection is down" - what does this mean?

Keeping things at a very basic level, there are two fundamental components of a G.993.2 (VDSL2) based Internet service. The first is maintaining the DSLAM and the modem in a synchronised state. The second is achieving and maintaining a Point-to-Point Protocol over Ethernet session with the CP providing your Internet service. It is the latter which was observed to be "down" or "absent".

Having looked at your circuit's recent behaviour (via MDWS) I have (very tentatively and without any hard & fast real, physical evidence) come to the conclusion that there is a defective connection (joint) somewhere in the circuit. Such a defect will account for the numerous resynchronisation events we have witnessed and whenever such an event occurs the PPPoE session will, ipso facto, also be lost. (If I was tasked to fault-find and then fix your circuit, I would find that evidence of multiple resynchronisation events to be most useful knowledge . . . As shown by the blue trace in the second image I have attached, below.)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 08, 2016, 05:18:45 PM
[off topic]
Is he still about? I looked at his record: he hasn't posted here since February. Do hope he's OK!

Yes, Walter is well and still trundling his wheelbarrow around, helping end-users to get the best from their xDSL services.  :)
[/off topic]
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 05:43:48 PM
@burakkucat,

thanks for your analysis, I will show the Engineer your thoughts & graph, cheers
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 08, 2016, 06:55:32 PM
Right, ok I best not try and discuss that with you then, countless times I've said that you're paying for a more expensive service for no noticeable gain in speed, I really wouldn't have bought FTTC with those line estimates either.
no noticeable gain? he only got 2mb on adsl!! he's been jumping between 6mb - 10mb with fibre. you can barely stream iplayer on 2mb. I remember going from dial-up > 0.5mb >  1mb > 2mb and at the time thinking those were considerable increases. 2mb > 6mb would be enough for me to order fttc, never mind 10mb. considering his achievable upload, 40/2 from the likes of talktalk is free for 12 months, then only £10 for the last 6 months. that's massively worth it imo.

going back to adsl wouldn't/shouldn't be an option. he clearly has a problem with his line, and with persistence OR should get it fixed.

OR should be able to leave something at the EUs home to monitor the line over a longer period. The chances of an intermittent fault happening right when an engineer is visiting is slim. The snrm graphs for your line are up and down like a yoyo, with periods of decent stability inbetween.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 07:06:47 PM
@j0hn,

thanks for your analysis. Yeah ADSL is not an option for me because I live 6km from my exchange, 3km to my Fibre cabinet. I cut out more than half of the metal wire by using Fibre.

I agree, I said to William before that 2Mb is junk, 8Mb is acceptable, 10Mb is fantastic for 2.8km from the cabinet.

I believe the problem is the rain getting into a joint, since the rain cleared today I haven't experienced any cut outs
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 07:15:40 PM
Sorry, but I don't agree, especially if you're tight on budget. I certainly wouldn't purchase a FTTC service if my line was very dodgy, and yes my line was dodgy on ADSL up until about 2 months before we switched to FTTC. Why would you want to use a fibre service when you can only receive 6 Mbps? If I was in your shoes, I would move back to ADSL, that is my opinion and I'm not budging from it. Obviously, most users on here would just get FTTC if it was available and not think about the potential costs and that it would bring nothing to their internet experience.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
@William Grimsley,

the only way to get a dodgy line fixed is to keep paying, keep investigating & keep getting Engineers out until it's fixed.

2Mb ADSL is not good enough for me, it's like paying for 1 shoe, I need 2.

I need good VDSL for the next several years until FTTP is rolled out so I look at the time & £ spent as a necessity
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
I understand...
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 08, 2016, 07:42:16 PM
everyone's entitled to their opinion. My opinion is some just see the word fibre and expect too much from the service. it's no more a fibre service than adsl. they both use fibre for hundreds of miles, with copper towards the end of the line. FTTC simply removes a little more copper.

he paid the same for his 2mb adsl as others do for 20mb adsl. now he pays the same for his 10mb as others do for 80mb. his upload is also up to 1mb now, a massive jump from adsl. 2mb isn't enough for a whole bunch of internet services, including the likes of iplayer. 10mb is enough to run 2 hd iplayer streams at the same time.

Max has already made it clear he's happy with his FTTC speeds compared to adsl. I reckon a majority would pay a little more to go from 2mb to 10mb.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 08, 2016, 07:50:40 PM
the last 5 hours have been pretty rock solid max, with only 5 or 6 ES in that time, very stable snrm. has it rained in your part of the country today?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 07:54:45 PM
ADSL doesn't use fibre? ADSL is stored in the exchange and then travels either overhead or underground through copper to the PCP then to the EU.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 08:00:15 PM
@j0hn,

It was pretty wet when I woke up this morning & it was raining, I was getting disconnections. The Sun came out & it is completely dry now, no disconnections. I had to turn of the electricity earlier cause were were getting a new fridge installed tho.

@William Grimsley,

I think j0hn means the back bone of the internet uses Fibre between the exchanges

Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 08, 2016, 08:30:47 PM
ADSL doesn't use fibre? ADSL is stored in the exchange and then travels either overhead or underground through copper to the PCP then to the EU.
It does though. it's fibre to the exchange, then copper to your home. some countries have ADSL in the cabinet. we simply call it "Fibre to the cabinet" as an advertising con. In reality though VDLS2 is no more Fibre broadband than ADSL, just a little less copper. In some cases it's more copper than others. My local exchange has 2 AIO Cabinets in front of it for local EO lines. When customers change from ADSL to VDSL2 it's suddenly called Fibre broadband, even though it's the exact same amount of copper/fibre. The ASA shot themselves in the foot allowing Virgin to advertise their HFC as Fibre broadband for years. It's only because of this that VDSL2 is sold as Fiibre broadband.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 08, 2016, 09:00:08 PM
All I can suggest is another Engineer visit the amount of retrains are bad but the end-user can also cause retrains by rebooting their modem.

I do try to take members DSL stats at face value yet there are many ways to fake it to look much worse than it is for reasons I don't understand.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 09:10:49 PM
Oh, that's a new thing I've learnt today. Where does the fibre come from to the exchanges though? I presume the head exchange feeds the other sub exchanges?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 08, 2016, 09:15:24 PM
Oh, that's a new thing I've learnt today. Where does the fibre come from to the exchanges though? I presume the head exchange feeds the other sub exchanges?

You will be learning stuff every day until your six foot under, no one is an expert even the experts have a lot to learn  :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: licquorice on July 08, 2016, 09:30:04 PM
Oh, that's a new thing I've learnt today. Where does the fibre come from to the exchanges though? I presume the head exchange feeds the other sub exchanges?

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/21cn_network.htm
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 09:55:54 PM
Thank you, licquorice (apologies for earlier). :-[

Now it makes sense! :D
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 09:57:16 PM
@NewtronStar,

my DSL Stats showed I had 20+ disconnections yesterday but when I rang BT Retail they said they had only 5 recorded which was strange.

The down time for turning off the electricity I couldn't help but I had already booked another Engineer before that.

Rained a bit lightly there, SNR dropped a bit, FEC's dropped a lot, stopped raining now though

Edit: I turn off my Linux DSL machine at night because of fire hazard but the router is left on
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 08, 2016, 10:37:32 PM
Fire hazard? I leave my PC on most of the time!
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 08, 2016, 10:51:03 PM
@William Grimsley,

it's a 10 year old machine, I don't like having machines left on overnight while I'm asleep just in case.

When I eventually get a Raspberry Pi I'll leave it on, I'll get a fire alarm for my office too
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 09, 2016, 01:42:26 PM
Question: could some of the FEC's on my line be caused due to the Wireless on my router?

No Engineer arrived today but my line has been ok so far...

Edit: I said there was no FEC's when the wifi lost connection but that makes sense due to no wifi connection
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 10, 2016, 12:22:38 AM
FEC's are simply potential errors that were corrected before they became errors. They are perfectly normal, especially with how your line has been. dlm has turned on error correction on your line. you had over 30 resyncs in the last 2 days dlm is making quite a few changes to your line to try stabilise it.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 10, 2016, 06:25:36 PM
The Engineer didn't show up yesterday

Things were going well until now; Down to 1.8Mb
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 10, 2016, 07:26:28 PM
I'm surprised DLM took action so quickly, I can't really see why your Downstream SNR Margin should be that high?!

I mean, there was nothing wrong with your line before the resync, what is also odd is that G.INP has been enabled on Upstream too! :-X

To now say your line is dropping out with such a high SNR Margin is really strange.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 10, 2016, 09:03:35 PM
I mean, there was nothing wrong with your line before the resync, what is also odd is that G.INP has been enabled on Upstream too! :-X

G.INP for Huawei cabinets on the upstream has not gone away it's just not used as the default these days until a line is having serious issues  :(
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 10, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
Yeah, I knew that, that's why I was a bit worried.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: j0hn on July 11, 2016, 12:02:10 AM
The Engineer didn't show up yesterday

Things were going well until now; Down to 1.8Mb
CRC's are pretty irrelevant also. More important, and more serious a problem is the Error seconds. you had over 2000 Error Seconds in the space of 2 hours. This was accompanied by over 500 Severely Error Seconds (even worse than ES). that will by your line resynced and came back with so low a sync. It's now back up to 9mb.

Make sure to show the engineer your snrm graphs. Clearly there's a problem on your line, that's very intermittent.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 12:03:51 AM
@j0hn,

cheers for your analysis, are ES & SES not caused by FEC's & CRC's?

If not what causes them?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 12:17:50 AM
It's all documented here http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm

Noise is often the cause of problems
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 11, 2016, 12:20:11 AM
CRC's are pretty irrelevant also.

That surely has to be a typo in j0hn's post.

CRCs are very relevant. CRCs are responsible for the ES and the SES.

However FECs are less relevant as they are "CRCs that didn't happen" due to the intervention of the error correcting mechanisms.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 12:32:03 AM
@burakkucat,

CRC- Cyclic Redundancy check, FEC - Forward Error Correction

I understand CRCs & FECs are maths checks on the data transmitted, CRC's can't be corrected but FEC's can

A high number of FEC's would result in CRCs imo
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 12:33:58 AM
FEC's are corrected - they aren't errors, they can't cause anything.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 12:36:09 AM
@Dray,

the higher the number of FEC's then the more data needs corrected.

Once the data becomes so corrupted it will no longer be able to be corrected resulting in CRC's?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 12:41:24 AM
Yeah but that won't be a FEC, that will be an uncorrected error. An errored second is a period of time (a second) which contains at least one error (e.g. an uncorrected error).
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 12:44:49 AM
@Dray,

What's the difference between an ES & a SES then?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 12:46:11 AM
From the link I posted
Quote
A Severely Errored Second is a one second period which contains 30% or more errored blocks OR several other events
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 12:49:33 AM
@Dray,

cheers, I'll have to ring again tomorrow. They said an Engineer would come out Saturday past but never did. Said they'd send me a conformation txt but never did either.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 01:02:10 AM
You can track BT faults here https://www.bt.com/faults
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 01:20:41 AM
@Dray,

cheers, I've been using it & all methods of complaining for ages now lol  :D
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: parkdale on July 11, 2016, 06:35:47 PM
It took several vists over a couple of months to sort my line noise out but now i've gained 2db on my down stream.
Downside is I seem to get more errors on my line than before.... but it could be down to constant resync's.
So keep badgering them ;D it will payoff in the end.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 06:39:23 PM
@parkdale,

I've been complaining for 7 months, it's nearly fixed but need this last problem sorted or it's all in vain
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 11, 2016, 08:00:55 PM
Guys,

how can you tell if your line is affected by Crosstalk when viewing DSL Stats graphs?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: ejs on July 11, 2016, 08:42:33 PM
From the link I posted
Quote
A Severely Errored Second is a one second period which contains 30% or more errored blocks OR several other events

I'm not sure where that definition of a Severely Errored Second originates from, but for DSL, it's defined in G.997.1 as a second containing 18 or more CRC errors, or one of various other events.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 09:01:11 PM
Here http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: ejs on July 11, 2016, 09:15:39 PM
I gathered that, I was wondering where it came from originally.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: Dray on July 11, 2016, 09:25:51 PM
Plenty of hits on Google, including https://www.itu.int/ITU-T/formal-language/itu-t/g/g774.1/2001/g774.1.html
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on July 11, 2016, 10:04:09 PM
From this sequence ...

From the link I posted
Quote
A Severely Errored Second is a one second period which contains 30% or more errored blocks OR several other events

and...

I'm not sure where that definition of a Severely Errored Second originates from, but for DSL, it's defined in G.997.1 as a second containing 18 or more CRC errors, or one of various other events.

and this link ...

Here http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm


I gathered that, I was wondering where it came from originally.

May I offer an answer that could meet both statements?

From the link, we are told that ADSL modems generate 4000 frames per second, and that a superframe consists of 68 ADSL frames plus one synchronisation frame. That tells us there are 58 superframes every second.

I believe (and have for a long time (https://community.plus.net/t5/Broadband/FEC-CRC-HEC-Errors-Are-these-in-a-normal-range/m-p/691802#M102261), apparently) that the CRC check is performed per superframe - so the data being transmitted can result in 58 CRC errors per second.

18 CRC errors per second is pretty close to being 30% of the 58 blocks per second.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: licquorice on July 12, 2016, 02:12:21 PM
Certainly in the SDH world (with which I'm much more familiar than DSL) a SES is a second in which contains 30% or greater errored blocks OR other severe events. Block size obviously dependant on the signal in question but proportional to the bit rate.  ITU G826 describes.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 13, 2016, 01:30:35 PM
Guys,

Senior Engineer who knows everything about broadband was with me today.

He re-crimped my NTE, fixed up the junction box on the pole that was crooked and checked the diagnostics from that pole & my NTE.

He said my AC Balance was 66db at the pole but 56db at the NTE. He re-crimped the line in the attic & now the AC balance at my NTE is 59 db.

What's AC balance & how can it affect my line? Could it be the sole cause of my disconnections?

cheers
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 13, 2016, 01:36:22 PM
Hopefully what the Openreach engineer has done has finally fixed your issue, I commend you for putting up with this. :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 13, 2016, 01:37:58 PM
@William Grimsley,

cheers, I think I'll be putting up with issues until FTTP is rolled out  :no:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 13, 2016, 01:40:00 PM
A shame, you want to check out my recent thread, it's going to be an interesting evening seeing if we get any noise. :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 13, 2016, 01:41:59 PM
@William Grimsley,

I seen it, in comparison with me your speeds are great. As long as your line is reliable I think you should enjoy your broadband
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 13, 2016, 07:02:43 PM
Any1 know the answer to the AC Balance question above?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: William Grimsley on July 13, 2016, 07:10:25 PM
@William Grimsley,

I seen it, in comparison with me your speeds are great. As long as your line is reliable I think you should enjoy your broadband

It's incredible isn't it, quite shocked to say how poor the line condition was nearly 2 years ago. I don't understand how being told to "power down the router for 30 minutes" is great advice when the line is stable.

Any1 know the answer to the AC Balance question above?

Unfortunately not, sorry.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: davinci8128 on July 13, 2016, 08:26:39 PM
You can think of AC balance as the ability of the line to repel interference/noise. The higher the value the less prone the line is to external interference. It is actually a negative number.

You want this to be above 60 db for a good circuit.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 13, 2016, 08:31:10 PM
Thanks @davinci8128,

he said the AC Balance was 59+ at the NTE now, I think 59.6 I think, so nearly a good circuit.

I'm surprised at how just 1 connection can cause such a problem. There are so many connections, could have several problems  :no:

Any of the graphs on DSL Stats show the AC Balance?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 17, 2016, 10:27:46 AM
Disconnection this morning; went from 9.5Mb to 4.5Mb

There is a broken street right above the underground cable, 0.8km from the cabinet

Could it be the cause?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 26, 2016, 05:22:31 PM
Got my Raspberry Pi & DSLStats set up!

Plus Fire Alarm :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 27, 2016, 01:46:30 AM
Got my Raspberry Pi & DSLStats set up!

Plus Fire Alarm :)

  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 27, 2016, 10:31:51 PM
I can already see the big SNRm dive just after 20:30 the effects of atmospheric RFI on longer lines  where the SNRm starts to rise in the early morning and then reaches it's maxium at 12pm and stays steady during the day until 20:00

And the cycle continues but times start to shift as you move from summer to winter and back to summer it's as regular as clockwork.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 27, 2016, 11:24:44 PM
Perhaps a forced resynchronisation event, at around 0800 hours, will result in a DS SNRM plot with a minimum of 4 dB and a maximum of 6 dB? (At present, the minimum is about 7.2 dB and the maximum is about 9 dB.)  :-\
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 03:52:47 PM
@burakkucat, @NewtronStar,

There are 0.8km of street lights at my cabinet causing noise too, they are timed & light dependent.

The reason for the high SNR was because 1 of the lights directly above the underground cable was broken IMO.

The electricity for the broken light is probably fed down the earth cable into the ground where the cable is caused REIN.

I reported the broken light & it was fixed 2 days later. Hopefully my SNR will drop & my speeds increase :)
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 05:20:12 PM
I see that your circuit underwent a resynchronisation event at 0510 hours this morning which resulted in a reduction of both the DS and US SNRM.

Then, for some other reason, there was a stepwise reduction in the DS SNRM at about 0950 hours which persisted until about 1150 hours. At the latter time the DS SNRM recovered, almost to the same value that existed prior to about 0950 hours.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
@burakkucat,

the reason for that trench in my SNR graph was the Oven being on. I get the same when I use my treadmill,

any idea why this happens? Just EMI?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 05:50:10 PM
I am very surprised that your oven has such an effect. What type of oven is it?

I wonder, is your electricity an overhead feed and are you in a rural location?

I am aware of two instances where a treadmill has caused significant REIN interference to xDSL circuits and in both cases the cause was identified by the spurious RF noise generated.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 06:10:47 PM
@burakkucat,

it's an older oven, the fan assisted part was used.

My electricity is overhead to a pole then underground into the garage mains & into our attic from there.

1.png - shows the drop cable into the house & the final electrical pole behind
2.png - shows the final telephone pole & the electrical transformer our electricity is attached too behind
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 06:37:36 PM
Hmm . . . I'm not sure what to advise.

Do you see a dimming of any of your lights when the oven (or other heavy electrical load) is turned on?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 06:40:19 PM
@burakkucat,

I haven't noticed any dimming but the oven is only on during the day so the lights wouldn't be on.

There is also a small housing estate behind that transformer which has about 5 street lights too.

We live in a rural area, the setup for EMI for us is pretty bad.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: WWWombat on July 28, 2016, 06:44:26 PM
Does your oven have a non-fan mode?

That might allow us to confirm whether the problem is caused by the high load from the heating elements, or EMI from the motor driving the fan.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 06:47:05 PM
@WWWombat,

yeah it has a non fan compartment. I'll check next time it's on.

If it's due to high load the problem is at the transformer?

Would make sense because it happens when the treadmill is on too & the treadmill is way out in the garage away from the telephone socket
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 08:57:26 PM
. . . the treadmill is way out in the garage away from the telephone socket

It might be that the treadmill is generating copious RF interference which is then travelling through the mains wiring, entering the modem/router via that pathway.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 08:58:57 PM
@burakkucat,

any way to prevent that?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2016, 09:19:51 PM
Using a mains conditioner with RFI filter is the only thing I know to prevent this
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 09:40:29 PM
@NewtronStar,

cheers for the info, would a Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) work too?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 09:41:41 PM
Another thing to consider is whether that pole-mounted electricity transformer is starting to show its age . . . arcing between the turns of one winding, when the load is increased.  :-\

Perhaps you could check for wideband spurious RF emanations in the vicinity of the pole with the aid of a de-tuned radio, checking in the 300 - 650 kHz frequency range.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 09:43:45 PM
@burakkucat,

yeah it's old, the cables needed to be covered with a plastic coating last Christmas because they started sagging & touching blowing the fuse several times
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 09:55:00 PM
Hmm . . . That is the sort of occurrence about which I was thinking. So it appears that the LV mains infrastructure is somewhat degraded due to age and it could be protesting when the load is suddenly increased.

We do have some members who are experienced in the field of mains electricity distribution (and transmission). Perhaps others may have some suggestions as to what to check, etc.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2016, 10:02:27 PM
@NewtronStar,

cheers for the info, would a Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) work too?

If you have one then try it
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 10:10:50 PM
@NewtronStar,

I was thinking of getting 1 in case my electricity went off so I'd still have internet access.

@burakkucat,

Is the problem literally the quality of the electricity to the router's power plug?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2016, 10:23:19 PM
The only way to be sure is to isolate the mains to the modem there are two ways you can do this.
A. Use a Car Battery 12v DC and get the polarity right + -  of course to modem
B. use a Car Jump starter pack that has a 12v DC output socket and connect to the modem
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 10:34:55 PM
@NewtronStar,

would a car jump starter pack not be the same as a UPS?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on July 28, 2016, 10:42:41 PM
Is the problem literally the quality of the electricity to the router's power plug?

At the moment we really don't know. So far, everything I have mentioned could be a possibility. Now is the time to experiment, one step at a time, and then to analyse the results so obtained.

N*Star has suggested temporarily isolating the CPE from the mains electricity supply. Whilst in that state you could then check for the effect of (1) turning on the oven (2) using the treadmill.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 10:54:46 PM
@burakkucat,

I'll monitor my graphs for the mean time. I don't have a car charger with a plug tho.

Spent a lot of £ already on my internet so maxed out for the minute.

I'll be investigating an UPS or power conditioner in future probably
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2016, 11:17:06 PM
The car jump starter pack will need an adapter as seen in photo always double check the polarity with volt meter to make sure the polarity is the same as the modems PSU.

Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on July 28, 2016, 11:43:20 PM
@NewtronStar,

I wouldn't attempt it tbh, I don't know enough about electronics so would be too concerned about frying my gear lol
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 02, 2016, 04:31:00 PM
Turned my Treadmill in the garage on for the 1st time in ages today, a big decline in my SNRM while it was on (as attached)

Will need to investigate this
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: roseway on August 02, 2016, 04:43:20 PM
Some years ago, treadmills were rather notorious for interfering with broadband. It's gone a bit quiet in recent years, but I'm not at all surprised that the issue has popped up again. I'm not sure if we ever worked out whether is was mains conducted or radiated interference, but it would certainly be worth trying a mains filter in the supply to the treadmill.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 02, 2016, 06:00:03 PM
@roseway,

In my uneducated opinion in electronics the problem is either:

- The outside transformer emitting EMI when the treadmill is turned on directly into the telephone cable
- The increased load causes the AC power to fluctuate more, the power adapters (transformers) for the phone & router which are beside the router are emitting more EMI

if it is either of the cases, should I ask for the electricity company to service their transformer?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 11, 2016, 11:26:29 PM
Had 8 disconnections today, was there a BT outage today?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on August 11, 2016, 11:59:44 PM
. . . was there a BT outage today?

Nothing of which that I am aware.  :-\
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 12, 2016, 12:05:49 AM
I checked the BT Fault tracker & there were faults today for broadband, didn't mention my area though

There is a electronic road sign sitting right above the telephone cable at the moment, could it be that?
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on August 12, 2016, 12:19:24 AM
There is a electronic road sign sitting right above the telephone cable at the moment, could it be that?

I really could not say. Hopefully the sign will soon be gone . . . once Tuesday 16th August arrives?  :-\
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 12, 2016, 12:22:27 AM
I doubt it, I think there's gona be substantial roadworks.

Couldn't be good that sign sitting there, the lights flash & it's got solar panels to charge the batteries - EMI emissions

I get rid of 1 problem another comes straight along
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on August 12, 2016, 01:29:08 AM
Couldn't be good that sign sitting there, the lights flash & it's got solar panels to charge the batteries - EMI emissions

Ouch. And with one wheel removed it would not be an easy task to "relocate" that sign!  :-X
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 31, 2016, 10:41:54 PM
They have dug up the road between my cabinet & the exchange exposing the cables

I have been experiencing lower speeds & more noise since

Could this be because those with ADSL on my line are experiencing more noise on theirs?

I don't see how this work would affect my fibre cable
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on August 31, 2016, 11:48:33 PM
Your expanded Hlog plot looks quite satisfactorily smooth and without any major deformities.

Considering where the road-works have occurred in relationship to the PCP and its fibre twin, I would agree with your suggestion. It does appear that the elevated noise level, thus depressed SNR and synchronisation speed, is a secondary effect arising from those circuits carrying xDSL services of exchange origin.

You mention "exposing the cables". From my understanding of your description, I would be very surprised to know that the E-side cables were not ducted. Was there any evidence of ducting that had been broken away? Perhaps those exposed cables were DIG (direct in ground) D-side cables, as there is no logical reason why D-side cables should not travel in the direction towards the exchange. Considering the PCP to be just a marker on a map, D-side cables should be expected to radiate in a full 360 degrees from that point.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on August 31, 2016, 11:59:37 PM
@burakkucat,

Thanks for your analysis, the problems never stop :(

The underground cables are ducted & buried directly in the ground, just the sides are exposed. I didn't notice any broken duct.

The exposed cables are exchange to PCP cables. I know because the route from the exchange to my house is pretty straight & the telephone poles are all on that side of the road.

Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: burakkucat on September 01, 2016, 12:49:06 AM
Hmm . . .  :(  The only hope is that once all the road-works are complete, that the exchange-originating xDSL circuits revert back to their prior state and thus become less of disturbers to your own VDSL2 service.
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on September 01, 2016, 12:52:23 AM
@burakkucat,

hopefully once the road works stop & the cables are recovered things will improve.

I've just realised I have to monitor not just the broken street lights from the cabinet to my house but the street lights from the exchange to my house as the quality of the ADSL connections on my line affect my connection  :no:
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on September 07, 2016, 01:23:49 AM
Been getting 1Mb the past few days  >:(

I can see there has been a network outage from BT Service Faults, any1 know about this?

My HLog is a mess
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on September 07, 2016, 10:56:16 PM
Disconnection tonight, went out in the car to check the street lights

1 light out permanently, then when driving home all the street lights shorted out for a minute

So there's a big problem there  :(

Reported the fault
Title: Re: Advice on poor quality line
Post by: MaximusPrime on September 14, 2016, 04:10:32 PM
Hi Guys,

is there a large BT outage?

I reported a fault last week, it's still not fixed. Fault tracker said my line should be fixed tomorrow.

But a new fault for my town has been opened on the Service Status Faults page today, says it won't be fixed until Monday.

Getting a 3.5Mb on my HHB5 at the moment, intermittent