Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: shadow4dog on May 16, 2016, 03:18:56 PM
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My ISP has been helping me with why my line is now at the very bottom of the clean estimate. Most of the line tests that the ISP ran came back clear but they also ran a Full Intrusive Line Test which, they say, may show that there is a line fault.
What kind of faults would a Full Instrusive Line test pick up that the normal tests don't?
Thanks
Tim
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I have never seen such a description . . . it's a totally new phrase, to me.
Perhaps Black Sheep or others from the Openreach flock will know? :-\
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Tests have always been called intrusive if there's a probability that it will cause the EU to either lose sync or session.
For example, the xDSL status check test is considered non-intrusive, whilst the xDSL Copper test is intrusive.
On FTTC lines only, there's the GEA Service test (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/GEA_test.png). It's also known as the E2E Access test and fully intrusive.
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Exactly as the lady ^^^^^ says. Via WHOOSH, we can perform intrusive or non-intrusive tests, I have never actually performed the former as I've never had to ...... I can only guess that it involves performing a full MPF test as well as a DSL functionality test, and as such needs the circuit to be 'dead' in order to do IR tests ??
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Ah, I see. Thank you, both.
Hopefully you will have answered Shadow's query. :)
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Hmmmm ?? I've only just clicked on the link above that Kitz provided (GEA service test), and that very much looks like a non-intrusive test to me ?? ??? ???
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According to this http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,2830.msg77430.html#msg77430 OR can't do a woosh test but BT can.
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Are you mistaking ADSL for VDSL testing ??
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Given the dates I think I am. So OR can still do a woosh test. Or is it whoosh?
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Yes, OR can do WHOOSH tests on all FTTC products, regardless of who the re-seller is ....... I do everyday. :)
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Where does the name Whoosh come from is it an abbreviation :)
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I've no idea where the name came from TBH. I (and a few of my colleagues) have wondered over this ourselves in the past ?? We kind of guessed it's onomatopoeic with regard to data flowing through the network/s ??? I've never, ever seen it presented as an acronym (or abbreviation). :)
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Hmmmm ?? I've only just clicked on the link above that Kitz provided (GEA service test), and that very much looks like a non-intrusive test to me ?? ??? ???
That was a GEA test run on my line - it definitely disconnected me when I asked PN to run one for me.
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ETA
From KBD
GEA (Generic Ethernet Access) Service Test (E2E Test in standalone menu) – Fibre products only
This fibre-based test is the equivalent of the copper line test, Status Check, Local Access Network and DLM Data checks seen for
WBC copper. It is also referred to as the SFBB (Super Fast Broad Band) test to BT Wholesale users.
The following criteria may be displayed within the test:
• The overall GEA test outcome returned as a result of the diagnosticsran
• A description of the fault should a fault be found
• An indication if the circuit was in sync when the test was ran
• Downstream and Upstream sync rates
• DSLAM profile
• Circuit performance parameters.
• Fibre based RRT style results
• If an appointment is required or not for any ‘Fail’ results
All GEA Service Tests run via New KBD are set to intrusive. This allows a copper pair test to be run for the copper section of Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC) circuits.
If the ISP performs a Copper Line Test or CIDT via the TSAM, this has ability to interrupt both voice and/or DSL. Depending upon the test type, once the SP has connected to the test head, relay switches can isolate various parts of the network exchange side from the MDF. Usually this means anything after the handover frame.
The SP could if they wish just test exchange side ie from Test head to MSAN which gives them the dial tone... rather than the EU line out via the MDF.
There's a total of 4 states: 1 normal and 3 test. 2 of the test states are fully intrusive. The last one isn't intrusive but that doesn't have the ability to test various line conditions such as loop, atten & a couple of other things required by the RRT & KBD which must be run before Openreach will accept a fault.
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this looks like GEA service test
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiDiJWrq9_MAhUgOsAKHezeBckQFgglMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.btwholesale.com%2Fassets%2Fdocuments%2FOrders_and_Faults%2FBT_Wholesale_Diagnostics_Guide_v1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEr1K983g8Yt_gVgAt9dTatX4mynA (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiDiJWrq9_MAhUgOsAKHezeBckQFgglMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.btwholesale.com%2Fassets%2Fdocuments%2FOrders_and_Faults%2FBT_Wholesale_Diagnostics_Guide_v1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEr1K983g8Yt_gVgAt9dTatX4mynA)
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I can see it states 'All GEA Service Tests run via KBD are set to intrusive', but I have no idea what KBD is ???
I do know I have just performed a WHOOSH GEA test on my own circuit with no loss of connection ...... it returns the same set of results as in the screen-capture you posted in the linky, and quite a bit more to boot.
As we both have inferred, the only intrusive part of the test is the MPF test, the actual DSL testing is completely non-intrusive. :)
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Its interesting the difference between WOOSH/WHOOSH
Originally the WOOSH toolset evolved as a suite of tools for Wholesale based ISPs based from the One Shot test.
The suite of tools was only available to Wholesale Only Operatives.. therefore Im guessing it will some combination of the highlighted initials.
Below is a screen cap from about 2005 showing the WOOSH tool set and results from the One Shot Check
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/WOOSH.gif
KBD = Knowledge Based Diagnostics for ISPs which replaced the WOOSH test.
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this looks like GEA service test
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiDiJWrq9_MAhUgOsAKHezeBckQFgglMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.btwholesale.com%2Fassets%2Fdocuments%2FOrders_and_Faults%2FBT_Wholesale_Diagnostics_Guide_v1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEr1K983g8Yt_gVgAt9dTatX4mynA (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiDiJWrq9_MAhUgOsAKHezeBckQFgglMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.btwholesale.com%2Fassets%2Fdocuments%2FOrders_and_Faults%2FBT_Wholesale_Diagnostics_Guide_v1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEr1K983g8Yt_gVgAt9dTatX4mynA)
Thanks for that NS ............... Knowledge Based Diagnostic = KBD. This is a BT Wholesale tool it appears, and can see the benefits of the intrusive test should a network fault be prevalent ??
An identified network fault would see the task be progressed to a relevant-skilled engineer, and a broadband fault would not be raised at this time. If the network test passes, then the DSL test results will be interpreted and a decision made from there.
If a subsequent DSL fault is raised, then the GEA testing we perform via WHOOSH is completely non-intrusive.
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I'm wondering... and this is only just supposition on my part.
Facts
The original WOOSH test was only available to Wholesale based ISPs, and many, many years ago the likes of Sky kicked up a stink because there was no equivalent for LLU diagnostics.
We then went through a silly phase when WOOSH was withdrawn and neither the ISPs nor visiting BT engineers had access to any of the WOOSH data. KBD was then developed for the ISPs and Openreach engineers got W(H)OOSH back.
Supposition.
What was originally WOOSH, got renamed to WHOOSH for Openreach Engineers?
Its only when performed by the ISP that it becomes intrusive? I can guarantee you that when I asked Plusnet to perform that GEA test on my line last year, it definitely made me lose sync.
Also noted is the fact that you said your WHOOSH GEA test gave you some slightly different info as well as to what the ISPs get. I wonder if for the sake of the LLU ISPs that part of the service does have to be disconnected?
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Hmmm ?? :hmm: :hmm: The WHOOSH being for OR only seems to be a good fit ?? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this is the case ?? :)
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Maybe Ignition has some idea on this ??
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Clever lady, kitz .............. it would appear that WHOOSH is indeed an engineer interface with WOOSH. Who knew ?? :) :)
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I'm wondering if the difference between the ISP/CP tests and the Openreach tests are also related to the location of the "test head". I.e. from whence access to the EU's circuit is obtained? :-\
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Yay... getting there between us. :thumbs:
I've also just found something which says what WOOSH stands for, although I've no idea where that person got the info from or who he is. It seems odd that he should respond to a question some 6 years later. - Link (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21463)
WOOSH - Web Out Of Service Handler.
Note also the reply underneath from Openreachpeep who confirms what I said earlier that it was taken out of service due to in-equivalence.
I couldnt recall the year, but I can certainly recall how the Openreach guys moaned about it (including Ezzer).
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Well I think this is good when your ISP can run a KBD test most of the time I thought they were messing around with saying please wait and then saying have you a mobile phone so we can call you back, it all seems very clear now :thumbs:
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According to the KBD gumph (see earlier post (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17799.msg323723.html#msg323723)) ... its specifically the running of the "Copper Pair Test" in GEA Service Test which makes it intrusive.
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Just looking at the E2E access TEST: this is also intrusive.
E2E Access Test: Fibre service test, also known as the 'GEA Service Test' in the KBD tool. Please note: This test is for 21C Fibre only and is intrusive to the DSL service.
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Yep :)
On FTTC lines only, there's the GEA Service test (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/GEA_test.png). It's also known as the E2E Access test and fully intrusive.
This is what I think they will have run for Shadow4dog.
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Yay... getting there between us. :thumbs:
I've also just found something which says what WOOSH stands for, although I've no idea where that person got the info from or who he is. It seems odd that he should respond to a question some 6 years later. - Link (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21463)
Note also the reply underneath from Openreachpeep who confirms what I said earlier that it was taken out of service due to in-equivalence.
I couldnt recall the year, but I can certainly recall how the Openreach guys moaned about it (including Ezzer).
Having slightly more time on my hands today, I've trawled our intranet for what 'WOOSH' could be an acronym for and nowhere at all does it suggest it is such. I've even found the original 'Detailed Design Document' and from the outset, it is just simply a word that is used with nothing to hide.
I tend to pride myself in knowing most of our acronyms/TLA's, from many years of practice ............. but I have never, ever seen any hint that WOOSH is anything other than a word, and I still stand by the thoughts above that it is simply an example of onomatopoeia ?? :) :)
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Thank you for that excellent explanation.
They've run a 3 of these GEA Service Tests and they have a similar format to the one Kitz links to. I've included the text from one of them. I've no idea what interference observed on week days is all about... because it's missing from one that's run later (probably at the weekend!)
I don't know if it's worth getting Openreach to visit or not.
Thanks
Tim
KBD
EA Test Detail
Circuit ID NA Service ID XXX
Test Outcome Pass
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_0001
Description GEA service test completed and no fault found but unable to check for customer equipment connected to modem.
Main Fault Location OK
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 66.0 Mbps
Upstream Speed 20.0 Mbps
Appointment Required N
Fault Report Advised N
NTE Power Status PowerOn
Voice Line Test Result Pass
Bridge Tap Not Detected
Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise Not Detected
Estimated Line Length In Metres 305.6
Upstream Rate Assessment Very Good
Downstream Rate Assessment Low
Interference Pattern Regular Interference Observed on Week Days
Service Impact Retrains Observed
Interference Duration Longest Occurrence From 07:15 to 07:30
Interference Location Unknown
Home Wiring Problem Not Detected
Downstream Policing Discard Rate 0.0
Customer Traffic Level Upstream and Downstream Traffic Detected
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off
Time Stamp 2016-04-23T17:00:00
Parameters MIN MAX AVG
Down Stream Line Rate 61.9 Mbps 67.1 Mbps 65.6 Mbps
Up Stream Line Rate 20.0 Mbps 20.0 Mbps 20.0 Mbps
Up Time 0.0 Sec 900.0 Sec 889.9 Sec
Retrains 0.0 1.0 0.0
Current and Last 15 Minute Bin Performance
Parameters Last Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins) Current Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins)
Start Time Stamp 2016-05-06T14:45:16.535+01:00 2016-05-06T15:00:16.535+01:00
Ingress Code Violation 0 0
Egress Code Violation 0 0
Errored Seconds 1 0
Severely Errored Seconds 0 0
Unavailable Seconds 0 0