Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: skyeci on April 24, 2016, 08:56:38 PM
-
Hi.
I am looking at getting another vdsl service to run alongside my current link but a little unsure how you can link them up?
I currently use a seperate modem and router so I guess I would need another modem but wouldnt I need something hardware wise to present the wan connection at the router from the 2 lines??
Any advice appreciated.
Many thanks.
-
You need to decide if you want to perform load balancing or line bonding.
The former will just need the right equipment at your end, the latter will require co-operation by the ISP/CP as well as the right equipment at your end. Hence the latter will be more expensive . . .
As an example of line bonding, I will mention Weaver. He has three ADSL2 lines, each line has a modem operating in pure (basic) bridge mode. Each modem is then connected to a Watchfront FireBrick 2500 (http://www.firebrick.co.uk/products_2500.php) -- three WAN ports, one LAN port.
-
To add to what Burakkucat kindly said:
This means that for me a single TCP connection (single download) really does go three times faster. I don't need to have several things going on in order to benefit. Uploads similarly are triple speed.
To be able to do this I need a capable router and the services of a good ISP. I recommend Andrews & Arnold - aa.net.uk.
The router I use, a Firebrick FB2500 also needs the "fully loaded" software load option, the basic model won't do. The routers come with free support and lifetime software updates which include continuous enhancements and improvements, not just bug fixes. The Firebrick is a simply stunning device, a joy to use. You almost certainly need the faster FB2700 model. I would strongly recommend you not buy the FB2500 which is fine for me with my very slow (>3 Mbps) ADSL2 lines.
-
Some users don't get multiple speed single downloads. It takes them the same amount of time to download something when the network is otherwise quiet, unless you are considering the situation where the network is being heavily loaded by multiple users or multiple downloads all going at the same time.
Their kit can have devices with two or more addresses assigned to them simultaneously, one per line, and a machine can get multiple simultaneous streams of stuff inbound to each one of the addresses. The Internet knows there are n lines and has to choose somehow which IP address (for which line) it's going to send stuff to.
In contrast, my router and the machines on my network don't have three IP addresses one per line. They just have addresses that are associated with the entire group of lines, and the internet knows nothing about the three lines. The load splitting over my three lines is handled by the ISP for inbound traffic, and by the router for outbound traffic.
-
Thanks for all the information. Plenty to investigate..
what kit could considered for load balancing - assuming you still need 2 modems etc?
Many thanks.
-
For load balancing I use a TP-Link TL-ER5120 and it works perfect for the 110/36 that I can achieve.
You can either do PPOE or just plug the router into it, I don't think it does MER so you'll probably have to just plug a router into it.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F5274916789.png&hash=638066084cbc6d2d8dd6239f56dee965aecc9cf1)
-
Yes thanks to sky for annoying mer..was going to pm you to ask if you wouldnt mind checking if it has the option to specify username and password referred to as "manual client id" under special isp requirements on routers wan port.
I noticed your ping is 19, I was thinking with 2 lines you would get a better ping rate?
Sorry just one more question... did bt bring a new cable in or use a spare pair on your main bt cable.
Cheers
-
Yes thanks to sky for annoying mer..was going to pm you to ask if you wouldnt mind checking if it has the option to specify username and password referred to as "manual client id" under special isp requirements on routers wan port.
I noticed your ping is 19, I was thinking with 2 lines you would get a better ping rate?
Sorry just one more question... did bt bring a new cable in or use a spare pair on your main bt cable.
Cheers
Ping would be whichever one ends up doing the initial ping, as one of my lines is interleaved it picked up on the ping that line has.
This is more typical
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F5278423016.png&hash=b1cb3f210ab81b8f204b6fb688119914333579ca)
Note you wont get better pings with 2 lines vs 1.
Other things to take into account is it would have no effect on stuff that only supports one 'thread' such as Netflix, however things that support multiple 'threads' can utilize all the available speed things such as Steam downloads and p2p.
When my 2nd line was installed they checked if I had a 2nd pair in my drop wire as I only had one they just installed a 2nd physical cable.
Only options for WAN are in the picture attached
-
Ah ok cheers for that. Shame. May have to wait till I get away from sky eventually....
Thanks for your input..
-
Ah ok cheers for that. Shame. May have to wait till I get away from sky eventually....
Thanks for your input..
You can use Sky
You just have to plug the router into the balancer and select dynamic IP as the method.
In my case
Plusnet line goes directly from modem to balancer with ppoe
BT line goes from modem to HH5 to balancer using Dynamic IP
-
Oh ok. Interesting. So are your network devices sat behind the balancer using a switch or something...
I guess I would need assuming sky gave me a mirror install of my original service
Modem > router> (or all in one)
Balancer >switch> lan devices,wireless ap
Modem>router> (or all in one)
Would I need a wireless ap as well or my wireless devices would be in front of the balancer based on my current routers ability.
Cheers
-
I'm not sure it's possible to have 2 Sky connections in the same name. Anyway one of the advantages of having 2 connections is if you use different suppliers you can still connect even if one is down.
-
Yeah thats a good point, might get a better deal on the on the second fibre service with all the deals about..
Just need to figure out my lan config now to see if can make it all work..
-
Just think of the TPLINK as your router, with the WAN connections on one side and the LAN on the other. You'll need another wireless access point (WAP) maybe an old router, to supply wifi on your LAN.
-
Just following up and one other question if no one minds...
If opting for the load balance method does if matter if you mix speeds.. my sky link is supposed to be 80/20 but may choose a lower speed on the second profile as I rarerly get above 60-68 sync even when I did have g.inp
Thanks
-
No it doesn't matter. It's not really speed as such, it's bandwidth.
-
I'm confused about this thread :-[
I thought 'load balancing' was just balancing bandwidth between 2 connections, so your speed doesn't go up, it just makes your connection more stable and run more smoothly?
As for line bonding, I didn't think line bonding was available for fibre connections? Yet I've seen a couple of people on the forum post speedtest showing over 100Mb/s downloads, S.Stephenson in this thread, and Ignitionnet in another thread. How is this being done?
-
The load balancer allows certain things that support it to utilise both lines at the same time.
Otherwise say you are using 100mbps total on 6 devices the balancer will try to make both lines use 50mbps that is what it means by balancing.
Bonding requires an isp to support it or some complex hardware.
-
As I understand it --
- Load balancing is performed by the end user -- equipment is only required at the EU's end of the circuits.
- Line bonding requires co-operation between the ISP/CP and the end user -- equipment is required at both ends of the circuits.
-
The load balancer allows certain things that support it to utilise both lines at the same time.
Thanks for the reply mate.
I understand that part. But I dont understand why the download and upload speed suddenly doubles on speed tests. I've just watched a guy set a load balancing router up and his speeds appear to double. He was using adsl connections on load balancing and went from download 15Mbps upload 2Mbps to download 30Mbps and upload 4Mbps.
This might be an obvious question, but does that mean his new download speed is really 30Mbps?
I thought load balancing was if you have 2 x 60Mb FTTC lines then if you load balanced the lines you'd still be only be able to download a max of what you would get with 1 line just more efficiently.
I thought line bonding would double your download speeds.
I guess I'm asking, I currently sync at 63Mb. If I was to buy another fttc line and also synced at 63Mb too would my download speed double?
-
> If I was to buy another fttc line and also synced at 63Mb too would my download speed double?
Mine does.
-
Hi weaver
I thought you were fully bonded and not load balanced
On load balanced, you should be able to achieve same speedtest result using just 1 dsl connection, by connecting 2 LAN into load balanced, if seperate load balancer used, on single device with load balance capability, it's a little harder to use 1 dsl line
It does not mean your speed has doubled, as you are just using 1 dsl line, so it cannot, it just means it multi threaded on the speedtest
I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but we have being doing load balancing and fully bonded for a long time, I could even grab a screen capture of a VPN bonded line on upto 6 broadband lines, showing which packets use which lines, and all lines are variant speeds to each other, from different providers including 3G dongles
If you want to see screen capture, it'll be a week or two as I need to call at the clients to make it
Many thanks
John
-
But I dont understand why the download and upload speed suddenly doubles on speed tests. I've just watched a guy set a load balancing router up and his speeds appear to double. He was using adsl connections on load balancing and went from download 15Mbps upload 2Mbps to download 30Mbps and upload 4Mbps.
This might be an obvious question, but does that mean his new download speed is really 30Mbps?
I thought load balancing was if you have 2 x 60Mb FTTC lines then if you load balanced the lines you'd still be only be able to download a max of what you would get with 1 line just more efficiently.
I thought line bonding would double your download speeds.
I guess I'm asking, I currently sync at 63Mb. If I was to buy another fttc line and also synced at 63Mb too would my download speed double?
Yes.
Does it help to think that what you are increasing is the bandwidth rather than the speed? This means you can get more data down the line in the same time.
I prefer to think of traffic on a motorway - everyone travels at the same speed of 70mph but if you double the number of lanes from 3 to 6 you can get twice as many vehicles through in the same amount of time.
-
Due to my horrible net connection I am also looking at aggregating two lines and am very tempted by this box of tricks from TP-Link (http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/TL-R480T%2B.html) which seems very cheap and gets rave reviews generally, probably not as good as the one mentioned above but only £71 and probably good enough for me!
You appear to be able to mix up to 4 different ISP's / different types of connections (ADSL, VDSL, 4G etc).
To my surprise it can also aggregate both connections so you can experience the full bandwidth of both lines when downloading without getting a more expensive bonded connection, I didn't think you could do this without bonded connections - appears I was wrong.
Worth considering?
Chunks
-
You'd have to do policy based routing to maintain state and pin some connections, perhaps HTTPS and other secure connections, to one specific line/IP address - if the line/IP goes down, it can be reassigned but potentially breaking the session, similar to if your dynamic IP changed on a regular DSL line. Otherwise, you will likely find websites log you out when the IP changes, potentially some e-commerce orders being blocked due to the IP change.
I do bonding over 2 lines, which aggregates both up and down, but requires a box in the DC. Similar to the Firebrick setup, but without the Firebrick, using OpenBSD. I get about 82-83% (slowest line, x2, 80% ish of that). With access to both ends means I can control the QoS up/down without flooding the line. I had a slight digression on another topic:
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17674.0.html
-
As I started the post and been reading the responses I am still unclear as to wether 2 load balanced vdsl lines using something like the er-5120 in a home setup will be of any advantage?, i understand the bandwidth should increase but are the usual home internet type programs able to take advantage of this sort of set up? E.g. kids gaming on pc's and consoles at the same time etc..
Seems to be a mixed response as to wether a load balanced 2 line setup will actually increase performance unless I have not understood it correctly
Many thanks for any clarification
-
As you will have more bandwidth you will be able to do more things at once. But are you currently having slowdowns caused by a lack of bandwidth? Perhaps QOS would be a cheaper solution.
-
Seems to be a mixed response as to wether a load balanced 2 line setup will actually increase performance unless I have not understood it correctly
Many thanks for any clarification
Some things yes, somethings no, depends on the application/service.
Running speedtest.net, yes, it will show you around twice the bandwidth. But for others, if you have 2 lines, then for arguments sake 2 people could download at 60M on 2 lines, rather than 30M each on 1, but 1 person on their own may still only be able to download at 60M over 1 line.
-
That's only because you have to use an app that uses multithreading to utilise more than 1 line - Turbo Download Manager for example.
-
I watched this video on Youtube and the guy demonstrates the performance of a load balancer - this might help to understand
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDUfP8a5zNY[/youtube]
He gets double the bandwidth and does a test from about 4 minutes onwards .....
I found it interesting
Chunks
-
That's the guy I watched yesterday.
I don't understand how load balancing is able to show up on the speed test as doubled download and upload speeds, unless its combining both lines for the test only.
In the motorway example more cars can go down the motorway but surely they are only allowed to go a maximum of 70mph? It would just mean when the speedtest car came along it wouldnt be interrupted by any other cars.. and would in theory travel at the full 70mph?
I guess there is one way to find out about this. Anyone who now load balances, as your actual download/upload speeds increased when your downloading a file?
I'd recommend load balancing if you are having bandwidth issues i.e. a lot of devices want to use the Internet at the same time, you'd have more available bandwidth. I'm going to be recommending this solution to a friend soon as her and her family, including gamers and parents who are avid watchers of netflix and other streaming services all struggle for bandwidth, especially at evening times. Load balancing is a perfect solution for big familes lots of devices.
-
Is it not just utilising all the available bandwidth.
No doubt I may find out as looking to order my 2nd line and load balancer shortly hopefully
-
Yes, you'll have more bandwidth available.. so more devices will be able to access the internet with good speeds concurrently.
So if someone is playing games and someone else is downloading a file, before you might have a slow down or buffering if you're trying to watch a streamed movie. But with load balancing it will double the available bandwidth, so your streamed movie would use the extra bandwidth and no slow downs or buffering, hopefully :)
-
Hi
I'm sorry, I am not sure of your current connected speed, but from what I can gather, it's circa 60mbps, so I find it hard to believe with game machines and video streaming, even if you had IP phones, you have exhausted your bandwidth, unless your family is exceptionally large (ie excess of 10 users or or 10 computers/game consoles), given that most work on 2mb each, but let's say it's 4mb, x 10 would give you 40mbps, with leeway spate of 20mb...
I could be wrong though as a lot of information is not given and you maybe on less bandwidth
However, if your doing this primary for games console, to improve gamers experience, then the latency is adapted at the games server, to try to equalise the connected users latency, and it's normal for anything with latency of less then 50ms, to give excellent user experience (I know, I have been an avid gamer for years, playing against a lot of friends from all over the world), some with latency in excess of 350ms, but no real ghosting or sudden loss/seen of user. However, there are a few tricks used by cheaters, to give them an advantage in play, but if caught using these, a full ban on the game follows - light switch is one cheat
Many thanks
Johb
-
Doesn't bandwidth/speed usually come down to 'want' rather than 'need'? Mine certainly does :p
-
Hi
I'm sorry I don't normally reply to these type of comments, but I suppose it depends upon what the reasons are for wanting more bandwidth or speed, and as you state, is a personal choice.
However, if it's connected to games consoles or gamer experience, then I hope the expectation is not that it would improve this experience, as it seldom does, unless it was poor on the connection in the first place
I could be wrong so I apologise in advance as I do not know the specific reasons.
Many thanks
John
-
I love my load balanced setup and it has proved it's worth when one of my ISPs lost routing and I didn't notice.
I started out with a TP-Links and later a Netgear SRX5308... but am now using FreeBSD. It'd be interesting to explore bonding... but I don't have a pc in a data center with a 130Mb unlimited connection to the internet! :-)
Tim
-
Morning, what would be best to do on a budget ! TL-ER5120 with just the ISP's modem/router plugged into it ?! Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
My TL-ER5120 works perfectly fine for my 2 ~60mbps lines.
-
My TL-ER5120 works perfectly fine for my 2 ~60mbps lines.
Thanks, are you just using the ISP's modem/router ?.
-
s.step said higher up the thread when I asked
In my case
Plusnet line goes directly from modem to balancer with ppoe
BT line goes from modem to HH5 to balancer using Dynamic IP
-
Thank you, I've got a second business FTTC line going in soon thought I might as well look at load balancing saying bonded is way to much money !.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
nice, who are your providers.
1 of mine is sky (as already in ) and the other will be BT I suspect.
-
nice, who are your providers.
1 of mine is sky (as already in ) and the other will be BT I suspect.
On Talk Talk Business LLU and second will be Plusnet Business got it for £35 plus vat and £110 quidco cashbank. Can you set WAN static ip's on the t link box ?.
Thanks
-
These are the available options Static IP is one of them.
-
I asked tp link if they would consider adding the option 60/61 for the likes of Sky - they said it could be implemented into later firmwares so might be a chance yet...
-
Seems unlikely as the last firmware update was in 2014, but as the saying goes if you don't ask you don't get.
-
Thanks for the info, what would be the outcome on this scenario?
I have a micro server which has a WAN static IP for a comms channel and few small game servers I host on it ! Plus I also use it for downloading From newsgroups. So could it still have a assigned or forward WAN static IP as well as get double the download speed on newsgroups ?. Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
As the static IP comes from the ISP it will only work through the connection the IP address is from so i'd imagine you'd need to set up a fair amount of policy routing to make sure that all of the services that require the static IP only go through that connection.
As for newsgroups does it support multiple connections?
-
Seems unlikely as the last firmware update was in 2014, but as the saying goes if you don't ask you don't get.
"I have given feedback to our engineer about supporting the MER function on the TL-ER5120. They will check about this issue and adding that function when possible."..
No time scale given though ...
-
Not all but some newsgroups do allow multiple IP's. Well that's all good then thanks for your help.
Just need to source a ER5120 and the second line install and hopefully all runs sweet !.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Just slightly off topic, I've just seen my HP Gen8 micro server has 2 NIC's so could I connect 2 cables to the ER5120 and supply two Static IP's one from each ISP to it ?!
Cheers
-
I'd imagine so would require a fair amount of policy routing though.
-
Morning, I've bought a used TL-ER5120 off eBay and just wondered what would be the best modem/s to plug into it for a ECI Cabinet ? second FTTC install isn't till the 31st May so got some time to fiddle with things.
Thanks
-
I am on eci cab too. The best sync I have had out of unlocked eci,8800nl,sky router to name a few was and is the zyxel 8324 in bridge mode.
-
Thanks, isn't it best to have a Lantiq chip on ECI Cab and a Broadcom on a Huawei cab ?
Thanks
-
For tidiness and screwing it all to the wall under my desk I may just get 2 ECI modems, is it straight forward to unlock them ?! then get a WiFi router and plug it into the ER5120.
Thanks
-
Thanks, isn't it best to have a Lantiq chip on ECI Cab and a Broadcom on a Huawei cab ?
Thanks
Not always, different lines seem to prefer one chip set over the other. I'm on ECI and my ZyXel VMG8324-B10A syncs the best, although I haven't tried an ECI or HG612 for a long time.
-
For tidiness and screwing it all to the wall under my desk I may just get 2 ECI modems, is it straight forward to unlock them ?! then get a WiFi router and plug it into the ER5120.
Thanks
If you want real time stats uploading to mydslstats etc then the eci modem will not do this regardless of wether its unlocked or not.
You can unlock it and put openwrt on it (/r modem version) I have done a couple following the posts on kitz. Its not too bad once you get the case off and drill the board. Ask if you want help...
-
Not worried about mydslstats etc, just want to be able to see syncing info and G.INP info etc, Let me look through eBay for a couple Rev B r versions and I maybe back for some help on them. Cheers
-
Yeap you can get stats either from the gui or via putty etc once they have been unlocked
No probs if you want help
-
Cheers, much appreciated. Thanks
-
Working a treat ;)
http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5371686597 (http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5371686597)
-
Glad I could help ;D - very nice
-
Cheers Ned ;). If i need anything else I know where you are. Ta.