Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: Busa on April 22, 2016, 05:14:54 PM
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After two visits on the 11/04/16 and 21/04/16 by Openreach to correct a low upload speed on my line they managed on both occasions to not only make the upload speed no better or even worse they have also managed to drop my download speed by some 20%.
After several telephone calls and chat sessions to PlusNet I'm keep getting the "your line is operating within the limits" and a refusal to get me a Broadband Engineer to rectify the issues caused by the Telephone Engineers Openreach actually sent.
It may well be just within the estimated speeds however my line has always operated at the high end of the estimate on download, now it has fallen into the realms of a 40/10 connection when I'm actually paying for an 80/20 connection.
I did have a line rate of some 51 to 54Mbps prior to the 11/04/16 when that visit dropped it to 47.6Mbps, now after the visit on 21/04/16 I have a line rate of 41.4Mbps a drop of some 10Mbps in two botched Openreach visits.
Any ideas how can I escalate this issue as I'm just hitting a brick wall in both chat and on the 0800 number?
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After several telephone calls and chat sessions to PlusNet I'm keep getting the "your line is operating within the limits"
That was the attitude that finally pushed me to jump ship, on top of the extreme unpleasantness of trying to work with them on a fault, they were always trying to back off citing the estimated speed as some sort of standard. Fortunately I'd already managed to get an agreement that I could jump ship without contractual penalty, so at that stage I simply closed the fault ticket and placed my migration orders. As a precaution I cancelled the Direct Debit, just as well because they did try to charge the penalty.
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@Busa
Could you please summarise what your original fault was, what the low upload speed is, and what you think it should be?
Unfortunately, there's nothing much to guarantee that you'll always continue to get the speeds you once got. There's always the chance, especially when trying to fix a non-problem, that whatever gets done might actually make things worse rather than better.
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The minimum FTTC A for my upload is 7.5Mbps I was getting less than 5.5Mbps hence PlusNet arranged two Openreach visits. On both of those visits they have failed to make any difference to the upload but have managed to drop my download speed by some 10Mbps. The last visit has managed to drop every tone above 2169 to 0dB.
As said PlusNet arranged these visits when my line was running at a far better speed, they are now playing the "it's running within the estimate" card after Openreach made a mess of things and left knowing they had.
Both visits were supposed to be carried out by a broadband engineer, neither were and they admitted as much to me, in fact the last one did 't even have equipment that was working correctly.
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Just for clarity from DSL stats, the first was taken almost a month ago before the first visit by Openreach, the second was taken yesterday after the second Openreach visit :
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(I've deleted a lot of stuff I probably ought not to say, here's the short version.)
If you are not satisfied with their response to your fault, raise a complaint.
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LOL, I have tried but have no idea if it has been raised via the 0800 number as there seems to be no way of telling.
Is there a formal complaint form or number for Plusnet?
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The complaint number seems to have disappeared. What I did at one stage was write the whole thing, the use online chat and ask them to raise a complaint - then paste in the text.
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They should raise a ticket on you account
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Well after several conversations today, in all of which I asked for this to be raised as a formal complaint they have added no new ticket nor added anything to my existing one.
Think I'll go on chat and ask there too as I can at least get the chat transcript from that.
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I think I'm misremembering, when I first complained there was an online form you could use for a complaint, but it was the form that disappeared later not the phone number. By that stage I took the view the telephoning Plusnet was impossible (I'd experienced too many hold time of an hour or more) and that's why I used the instant chat.
Also have a complain on their forum, not necessarily about the specifics, but about how to get a complaint registered. Since posts there are visible to the public I think they may be more sensitive. That's what I had to do to get any response on my billing dispute - not that it's resolved the incorrect bill but at least there was another named individual agreeing that it is incorrect.
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https://www.plus.net/wizard/?p=wizard&page=22909&wizard_id=38
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Thanks for that although I managed to find it a little earlier this evening and raised another ticket as a complaint.
I'm totally hacked off with the useless staff at PlusNet who just quote minimum rates to you regardless of the evidence and fact Openreach have destroyed my otherwise perfectly fine download speed.
On the plus side Virgin are in the process of putting fibre in my street, groundworks and box (right outside my house) are in just waiting on the cables to be pulled through then I think it's time to kick BT, Openreach and any product using their shoddy infrastructure into touch. They can swivel if they think I'll be paying the rest of my contract period too, they have cost me over £1100 in lost work over the two days with Openreach messing my line up and this has now been ongoing for almost 3 months now.
I have no doubt it's the BT effect slowly but surely taking hold of PlusNet, even the staff used to be more understanding. Now I find some of them are impolite, arrogant and spend their time apologising which just winds me up even more as it's a scripted response which is totally false. I even had one in a chat session today call me by the wrong name then when I pulled him up about it he apologised stating he was in several chats at the same time. I cut him off straight after getting a transcript of the chat and telling him that as he had far more important customers to deal with I was leaving the chat. I would sack him, even for just admitting that to a paying client!
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I hope VM serves you better then because they're well known for having major contention issues. 150mbps can be less than 10mbps at busy times
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I can't comment but I was with Telewest many moons ago before VM took over and that was far better than any FTTC.
I'll take my chances with shiny new infrastructure once it's in over the old copper and *&$% aluminium BT offer. Hopefully I'll not see too much contention as most of my neighbours are old and don't like change ;D
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have you resynced to see if it fixes the tone issue (actually reboot modem).
If the behaviour persists you clearly have some kind of fault.
The problem is this system with openreach and the CPs they dont look at faults as a malfunctioning protocol, but rather a very simplistic view of speeds and estimated speeds. They e.g. could say well after your last visit, there is simply new crosstalk and that's part and parcel of the service.
I would suggest PM'ing one of the plusnet staff on the plusnet forums to see if they will push this along, if you still hit a brick wall then change isp.
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First thing I did and it has not made any difference. The problem seems to be total incompetence on the part of openreach and the fact his equipment was giving random test results every time he used it. He even showed me my line speed getting slower the further from my house he tested it! ::)
Basically he has dropped me onto another pair and has not tested it at all, he also admitted he was not the qualified broadband engineer I was promised, which was fairly obvious.
The issue I have now is getting this through the thick and unhelpful skulls at plusnet.
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Well I've just come of yet another chat and then a phone call to PlusNet and they are still refusing to sent the Broadband Engineer they requested I have in the first place.
They are still quoting the minimum acceptable regardless of the fact I've lost 10Mbps in the last two botched openreach visits stating they can't send an engineer when it is within the tolerance.
I took great pleasure in asking them why they sent the previous two when it was actually better than it is now, this they could not answer. Why do they not understand (or more likely not want to understand) they are obliged to give me the best possible performance my line can achieve not the bear minimum?
Well unless I get a reasonable response from them by Monday I'll be calling their retentions team and cancelling every service I have with them and they can swivel if they think I'll be paying cancellation charges, they can offset their charges with my own lost revenue from the last two openreach visits which would put them seriously out of pocket should I pass my invoices on.
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What makes you think that they are obliged to give you the best possible performance your line could possibly achieve?
In a way, your line is already operating at the best possible speed it can currently achieve, that's how we tend to operate DSL in this country with these "up to" headline speeds.
If there's no indication of any fault, they'd have to book a boost or SFI visit, which would almost certainly cost them (unless the SFI visit finds something considered a fault). The amount of support time you've already taken up, you've probably already cost them more than any profit they might have otherwise been looking to make from you over a year.
I think the stupidest thing is that they probably shouldn't have sent the previous two engineers in the first place.
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I believe they are obliged to send them given the fact they screwed it up in the first place, this was PlusNet and Openreach's doing, not mine, it was PlusNet that insisted on these visits.
There is most definitely a fault as half my tone range has vanished along with an actual 10Mbps of download speed and my upload speed is still below the low estimate and still dropping.
Being quite frank the cost to PlusNet is of little concern to me, they are there to provide me the service I pay for and have been happily receiving. My clients couldn't care less if my costs spiral out of control so long as I can't hit them with a variation order. Besides, as it was Openreach who screwed this up surely PlusNet have cause to refuse to pay for this service themselves.
I really can't believe anyone would think this is acceptable at all, it's like asking the bank for £100, they take it from your account then give you £75, would you accept that?
As for your comment about the two previous visits, I do agree and actually advised PlusNet it would be pointless as most of the issues I had were in the evenings and no issues during normal working hours so Openreach would almost certainly not find a problem anyway. As already said it was PlusNet who insisted on these visits when my line was functioning at a far better rate and I have that as evidence.
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People often seem to say that the engineer visit was their ISP's or some part of BT's idea, but surely it wouldn't have been suggested if you hadn't raised a fault, and you didn't have to accept the engineer visit?
Few people seem to care about who ends up paying for a whole lot of hassle trying to fix some relatively minor issue, so long as it's not them, it doesn't matter, it'll come out of everyone else's line rental.
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In a way, your line is already operating at the best possible speed it can currently achieve, that's how we tend to operate DSL in this country with these "up to" headline speeds.
I think that depends on why the speed has dropped, and I don't think we know that in this case. If the line used to run at 50+ meg, and now only runs at 40 then clearly something's changed and if the something is the characteristics of the line then I think there's a good case for saying that's a fault. If it's external interference, or cross talk due to more subscribers on the same cabinet then maybe it is just something that has to be lived with.
By the way, how's the phone line? Maybe a broadband engineer isn't the right animal in this case.
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I know exactly what has changed they have put me on another pair which is performing worse and as they didn't have any working test equipment with them they didn't test it, they just sloped off asked me to try it and they would be back. An hour later they phoned me at which point I advised whatever they had done was worse they told me thy would not be coming back. How in any way shape or form is this acceptable and why should I have to live with the consequences of their incompetence?
As already said the last guy actually showed me the line speed decreasing the further he got from my house and his tester was showing random line speeds when tried at the same point. He actually admitted his equipment was faulty.
My line was working 20% faster on the download prior to the last two Openreach visits, fact. I was promised a Broadband Engineer on both occasions, fact. I got two Telephone Engineers who openly admitted they didn't have a clue, also a fact.
Phone line is fine, as said the issue was and always has been my upload speed however now Openreach have managed to drag my download speed to an equality poor level.
I'm actually paying for 80/20 which I was happy to pay for given the 49Mbps down/7.5Mbps up but since the last Openreach vist I'm only getting levels in line with a 40/10 service some 38.5Mbps down/5.8Mbps up.
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This is often what happens when trying to fix something that's barely a problem in the first place, pointless things get done which may make things worse, the whole thing is a waste of time and money, and everyone is unhappy. But Plusnet have dug themselves into a hole, so now have to dig themselves out of it.
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But Plusnet have dug themselves into a hole, so now have to dig themselves out of it.
It would help if they put down the shovel and stepped back from the hole ;D
I find it totally unbelievable what the general public are expected to accept in this country for services they hand over money for.
If companies put as much effort and money into doing the right thing and making things better rather than fobbing people off and making excuses just think how much easier life would be. Unfortunately this is not the way we think or work in the UK, it's usually a case of let's make one, sell it at the highest price possible then all retire, stuff everyone else.
The Japanese (as an example) are usually thinking generations ahead on investment, they will constantly develop and improve their products whilst reducing costs, sell it at a loss to flood the market killing the competition then make their money back in services and spares over the long term. Far more reliable and forward thinking, it pains me to say this an a British Engineer! :-[
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I am backing busa on this one, clearly a problem to be solved.
I have never heard of plusnet been this stubborn before tho.
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On one hand, they said they were happy with 49Mbps down/7.5Mbps up, yet on the other hand, they had the first engineer out when their line speed was 50019kbps down, 7048kbps up (it's difficult to read the numbers in the jpg, but I think they are zeroes not sixes). I didn't realise that the low end of the estimate was a guaranteed minimum speed. So now, after the first two engineers which shouldn't have been sent, they've got to send another engineer to put things back to where they were before the first visit, and also presumably try to solve the issue of the upload being under the low end of the estimate?
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That 7048 kbps was actually the highest figure on the upstream I'd seen since February, it was down at less than 6000 kbps most of the time.
The 49/7.5 I quoted where actual download/upload speeds I was getting not the line rates.
As said it was Plusnet that insisted on the Openreach visits on both occasions, I was happy to have the visit in the evening as that was when the issues were happening, obviously Openreach do not work 24/7 which I find unbelievable. Fault finding when faults do not occur is a little pointless wouldn't you agree?
I have pointed out to them they where happy to send Openreach on both the 11/04/16 and then again on 21/04/16 when on both occasions my speed (and connection in general) was far better than it is now that they are refusing. I'd like to find out from, in their own words exactly what their reasoning is now. I'll keep you posted.
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Just to make things a little clearer a couple of BTW Speedtests taken on 06/04/16 and within the last 15 mins today 24/04/16, both on same pc on wired connection:
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I think it could be either of:
- The first and second engineers shouldn't have been sent.
- They sent out an engineer because they had to be seen to be doing something, rather than just tell you that oh well, speeds can go down over time. Perhaps they were hoping the engineer would plug in their tester, tell you everything was fine and you were still getting fairly good speeds, and explain all sorts of reasons why you speeds could have dropped that they can't do anything about. They were hoping that an engineer checking things and telling you that there's no fault would have satisfied you that they've tried to fix your issue. Obviously this backfired terribly when one of the engineers made things worse.
I also wonder if Plusnet have some fixed monthly budget to spend on engineer visits, so if it hasn't been used up yet, some people get a boost or SFI engineer visit to make Plusnet look good, if it's been used up, other people get told that there's nothing they can do.
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I think it could be either of:
- The first and second engineers shouldn't have been sent.
- They sent out an engineer because they had to be seen to be doing something, rather than just tell you that oh well, speeds can go down over time. Perhaps they were hoping the engineer would plug in their tester, tell you everything was fine and you were still getting fairly good speeds, and explain all sorts of reasons why you speeds could have dropped that they can't do anything about. They were hoping that an engineer checking things and telling you that there's no fault would have satisfied you that they've tried to fix your issue. Obviously this backfired terribly when one of the engineers made things worse.
I also wonder if Plusnet have some fixed monthly budget to spend on engineer visits, so if it hasn't been used up yet, some people get a boost or SFI engineer visit to make Plusnet look good, if it's been used up, other people get told that there's nothing they can do.
In my case today with plusnet
Estimated line speed:
80Mb (This may vary between 65.2Mb and 80Mb) - Checked on 2016-04-19 12:18:33
I currently am syncing at 57mbps and when ringing them they said they are sending out an engineer to do some external work to see what can be done, they said to expect an update by Wednesday.
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Actually I've had four "engineers", two on each occasion.
On 11/04/16 I had one that didn't have a clue and all he did was "telephone stuff", the other did nothing other than keep his hands in his pockets except to puff on his electronic cigarette.
On 21/04/16 I had another turn up who did "telephone stuff" with faulty test equipment, he called his mate to come over, another "telephone stuff" guy. They proceeded to take readings all over the place with said faulty equipment, surprisingly getting no useable information, they then swapped me onto another pair and buggered off without testing it or waiting for me to see if it was better or worse. They did say they would be back, then an hour later phoned me and after me telling them it was far worse told me they would not be returning!
Busted flushes the lot of them.
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Just been checking out some alternative ISP's for next week should PlusNet decide not to budge and found the Aquiss estimate to be interesting given it is pretty much what I did get on the download and is better on the upload. The upload is actually what I used to get some 3 years ago on FTTC, whether that is still possible though, who knows as it seems to me PlusNet and Openreach will give you the bear minimum (or less!) and nothing else.
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If the VM network is freshly built you should be in good shape, Busa.
This is where I find out you're just down the road from me or something. Although I say that VM are building at a fair pace - 15-20,000 premises per week now.
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Virgin Media groundworks are done but no cables in yet, no idea what the eta on the project is but given the way Plusnet and Openreach are treating me now it can't come soon enough.
I still have 17 months on my Plusnet contract too but based upon the fact they have constructively reduced my service I firmly believe I have grounds to get out of this as it stands and should things not be resolved I will fight. As a Project Manager I do like a contractual challenge ;D
It is in the best interests of PlusNet to get this sorted out as you can be sure my reviews with neighbours will not go down well, most of whom have had issues with Openreach themselves anyway. Having said that I don't want them all on the Virgin network do I :no:
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It is in the best interests of PlusNet to get this sorted out as you can be sure my reviews with neighbours will not go down well, most of whom have had issues with Openreach themselves anyway. Having said that I don't want them all on the Virgin network do I :no:
Should be fine. The kit going in is relatively simple to upgrade if there are any capacity issues looming.
Certainly uptake in this general area was in some cases pretty high and capacity was added promptly.
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Well after a further 1.3/4 hours of being passed from Retentions to Technical PlusNet have flatly refused to give me the Broadband Engineer I was promised before Openreach destroyed my line.
I've asked them the following questions which so far they have failed to answer:
Why won't you book an Openreach Boost Engineer to rectify the issues caused by Openreach on my line?
Do you only provide the minimum service to paying customers or do you have a policy of providing the best possible connection the line can manage? Mine can mange at least 10Mbps more than at present.
Why do you tell me you can't book a further Openreach appointment to rectify their mistakes because my line is within limits when it is some 10Mbps less than it was on the two previous occasions you did book Openreach visits?
Is it worth taking this up with the Ombudsman as it is plain to me they will not fix the problem they have caused and are also refusing to release me from my contract? Any ideas on the best course of action other than just cancelling my Direct Debit and letting them sing for it? >:( >:( >:(
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Have you tried the BT CEO?
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No, but just raised a formal complaint through their online dispute resolution path.
Just noticed they have actually deleted my 3 month old ticket too, not just closed but actually deleted it! Unfortunately for them I have a full copy of it!
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Just been in chat with PlusNet again and they have told me they have not deleted my ticket, strange as it's not there, ticket number is 119535989 and here are all my tickets open and closed.
Fortunately I have a complete copy of the above ticket as I've raised a formal dispute with PlusNet and cited that ticket.
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Just sent a rather lengthy email to Andy Baker PlusNet's CEO too.
I really can't believe the pig headed attitude and fact they are punishing me for the incompetence of Openreach.
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Forgot to add, I've also got a thread going on the PlusNet forum if anyone is interested:
https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/Two-OR-visits-and-they-have-made-my-line-worse-on-both-visits/td-p/1328854
Any support would be most welcome, who knows where this might lead if left unchecked!
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Before involving the Regulator, it would be in your best interest to ask Plusnet for a formal deadlock letter. :-\
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Good point, many thanks for that.
I'll call Plusnet again first thing tomorrow and request one.
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Happy to report I received a response from Andy Baker the CEO of PlusNet this morning. He has escalated this issue for me so hopefully I'll get this resolved now.
Frustrating that you have to go to these lengths to get a company to give a reasonable response after they (or their suppliers in this case Openreach) mess things up, let's see what happens now the big boys are involved.
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Further update, I had a call yesterday from one of Plusnets Complaints Advisors who has now been assigned to my case.
I've been advised by said advisor "Openreach are ready to send out an engineer", just waiting on the arrangements for this now but hopefully we are heading in the right direction.
I can but dream .......... ;)
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:)
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Openreach booked for tomorrow morning again.
Fingers crossed I get someone decent who will actually fix this for me, or at the very least put it back the way it was!
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given its escalated I expect its a speed boost engineer, they tend to be much more willing to do some work.
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Well Openreach have been and gone again, guess what?
Yup my download speed has dropped a further 2Mbps and the guy claims I can't get any more even though I had more before he started!!!! >:( >:( >:(
Forgot to add I've also had this same guy a few times in the past and he is very quick to state he can't guarantee getting my speed back and telling me this is the very best possible when it blatantly is not. I tried explaining and showing him all of the evidence showing I had 10Mbps more 2.1./2 weeks ago but you just get the glazed look and "well I have no idea what the last guy has done".
Unbelievable! ::)
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climb up your pole and cut your pair off, bit hard to claim its in full working order then :p
embarrassing for openreach their JDSU's cannot detect this knackered pair. I assume you still have the frequency cutoff?
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That sounds a bit extreme :silly:
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Yes still missing tones 2169 onwards from my line.
I must have every Openreach reject/failure in my area!
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Have you ruled out your modem as the problem?
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Which one?
I have so far tried Netgear D7000, ZyXel SBG3300-N, HH5A, Openreach ECI Modem and an unlocked Openreach Huawei Modem.
I get the best results from the D7000 and SBG3300-N even though my cabinet is ECI.
Actually one thing the guy today did not do was a DLM reset again, could that be the cause of my low line rate or would it not matter?
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So they all sync around the same speed?
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Very similar with variance for time of day and SNR with the exception of the HH5A and Huawei which tend to give me slightly lower speeds especially on the upload.
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Which rules out the modem as the problem
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He also mentioned the earlier engineer, not sure if it was on the 11/04/16 or the 21/04/16 had done a lift and shift but all he did today was try a few different pairs and now I'm actually running slower than I was at 8am this morning.
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What's you sync speed now? Also can I ask, what was your sync speed originally, and what was the estimate?
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Around 2.1/2 weeks ago I had a line rate of over 51Mbps with a sync rate of >50Mbps and actual download speed of 48-49Mbps.
On 11/04/16 after the first OR visit line rate dropped to 47.5Mbps with a sync of around 46.5Mbps and download speeds of around 45Mbps
On 21/04/16 line rate dropped to 41Mbps with a sync of around 40Mbps with download speeds of just over 38Mbps.
I managed to get my line rate back up to around 44Mbps by strategic rebooting and putting my old Mk2 filter back on in place of the Mk3, I tend to get better download speed with the mk2 but worse upload.
This morning I was synced at 44Mbps and after openreach I am now synced at 42Mbps with the mk2 filter but my line speed has now dropped to 41.7Mbps:
From DSLStats:
xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6535 Kbps, Downstream rate = 41752 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 6431 Kbps, Downstream rate = 42102 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 5.9 6.1
Attn(dB): 22.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.7 4.1
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 19 33
B: 239 201
M: 1 1
T: 64 5
R: 0 16
S: 0.1814 0.9983
L: 10584 1747
D: 1 1
I: 240 218
N: 240 218
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He also mentioned the earlier engineer, not sure if it was on the 11/04/16 or the 21/04/16 had done a lift and shift but all he did today was try a few different pairs and now I'm actually running slower than I was at 8am this morning.
are you sure he swapped pairs?
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Well he was away for a couple of hours and told me he had swapped pairs and even though he could see the speed is now lower again after his intervention he just shrugged and said that's the best he could do.
I'm livid that no one from Openreach seems to want to try and trace the issue they have somehow caused for me in a methodical manner, they wouldn't last long in the oil and gas game with me :no:
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Ok that rules out the pair I think then.
To be honest your speed loss is well within expected loss of speed for crosstalk, that doesnt concern me, what does concern me is your frequency cutoff.
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I could accept crosstalk if it had not been fine until openreach started fiddling. These where instant drops in speed after their visits.
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This morning I was synced at 44Mbps and after openreach I am now synced at 42Mbps with the mk2 filter but my line speed has now dropped to 41.7Mbps:
Max: Upstream rate = 6535 Kbps, Downstream rate = 41752 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 6431 Kbps, Downstream rate = 42102 Kbps
Thanks for that. I'm just a bit confused by your terminology here.
To me your sync speed is 42102 Mbps
and your max attainable is 41752 Mbps
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Yes that's how I see it, but the max attainable should be (and usually is) higher than the sync speed.
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Yes, but the max attainable is just a number calculated by the modem as far as I know, it's not the line rate
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Well regardless my sync rate is still far lower.
For comparison I've just found this from the 11/04/16 after my first openreach visit when my sync rate dropped from 49Mbps, I'll see if I can find one that predates 11/04/16
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Found one but not sure on exact date, just know it was before 11/04/16:
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So I take it your sync speeds are now in the FTTC B (Impacted) estimate?
Did you rule out your own extension wiring? I mean do you have any? are you connected to the master socket?
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What was the original problem with the upload on the line? And what does the Openreach DSLchecker say for it?
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Extension wiring is not the problem unless it has suddenly changed on all three days Openreach visited in the last 3 weeks. That and I have the choice of Openreach Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 filtered faceplates, currently the Mk2 gives me the higher sync rate (above) but previous one where with the Mk3 which seems to drop the sync rate by 2Mbps downstream but increases the upstream slightly.
Yes connected to the master socket using a 0.5m high quality DSL cable.
As said above the original issue was upload of just over 5Mbps when the Low for FTTC A is 7.5 for my line.
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Is the extension wiring connected to the master socket faceplate? It should be.
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Yes
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Have you tried the modem in the test socket on the master socket with the extensions disconnected?
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Yes and no change to sync rates.
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Have you got one of these GEA line tests?
as seen here? http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17657.msg321936.html#msg321936
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Here are three, the first from prior to openreach's first visit, the second between the first and 2nd visit and the final one from today after the third openreach visit.
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I think you should push for a port swap - or migrate to Sky or TalkTalk which would involve a port swap.
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I seem to have a decent High Level Complaints Advisor on my side now and I've informed him that the OR guy today advised me on one of the two previous visits a lift and shift was carried out. He was amazed by this as the notes from the previous OR visits do not mention anything, at least he seems to be on a mission to get to the bottom of all of this for me.
Problem is I still have 17 months of my contract to run although if this is not sorted out soon I'll be pushing for this to be cancelled, which I don't feel is unreasonable after they have moved the goal posts some 20%.
TBH I'd rather hold out for VM as they have done all the groundworks and put the cab across the road from my house, just need the cables running now but no idea when this will happen. Most of my neighbours are already talking about ditching their own FTTC packages due to issues they have had themselves with OR over the years too.
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Seems my SNR is far less stable along with my max attainable rate this evening too.
It usually drops slowly by around 0.5dB between 6pm and 10pm before climbing back above 6dB.
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Thinking about the original drop in upstream bandwidth, perhaps that could have been due to an increased level of Upstream Power Back Off (UPBO), caused by someone newly connected to your cabinet being the proud owner of the longest line on your cabinet. The idea of UPBO is to make the upstream signals from each line all the same strength when they arrive at the cabinet. This means shorter lines have to reduce their upstream transmit power so that their upstream signal arrives at the cabinet at the same power level as the signal from a longer line, the signal from the longer being being attenuated more with distance.
I did notice the upstream transmit power was 5.8 in one set of stats, then 5.2, then later even lower. Unfortunately most modems don't seem to display the UPBO level they've been assigned, although they must know it because they must know the maximum power level they are supposed to transmit at. Also unfortunately, I'm not really sure which is the cause and effect with a reduced upstream power level and reduced upstream bandwidth. It could be that the bandwidth is lower because of the reduced power level, or it could be that the bandwidth is lower for some other reason, which results in fewer tones being used, and then the aggregated power level over all the tones in use is lower, because fewer tones are in use.
I don't think there's really anything that can currently be done about increased UPBO reducing your upstream speed, if that's even what happened originally.
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That has only happened with every Openreach visit and would find it hard to believe another line longer than mine was connected on all three occasions, the main issue is now the downstream being some 10Mbps lower than it was prior to the Openreach visits rather than the original upstream being low and it is actually lower than ever now.
Yes the power on both upstream and downstream has changed, the attenuation has also increased on my line giving an estimated line length some 60m longer than it was on 11/04/16 so it is fairly obvious to me Openreach have changed something on my line when they have been fiddling.
I was also told by the last Openreach guy on 28/04/16 that a lift and shift had been carried out by one of the two previous visits, either on 11/04/16 or the 21/04/16. I suspect if it was then this would have been on the 21/04/16 when the Openreach guy didn't even have working test equipment. I've advised PlusNet of this and they have informed me there are no Openreach notes stating this as fact but advise me they are investigating. TBH I have absolutely no confidence in the abilities of any Openreach staff I've had, so far they have all been too quick to tell me they can't do any more at the beginning of a job! Maybe I've been very unlucky but I don't rate them based upon my experience to date.
PlusNet after one attempt to rectify this have so far offered me "a small reduction in my monthly contract rate" which as far as I'm concerned it a total cop out. I've asked them to try a port swap and that after all the grief this has caused me and my lack of faith in both PlusNet and Openreach I will not accept anything that keeps me in a contract with a vastly reduced service. My connection will get far worse once DLM kicks in and interleaving drops my speed even further. I've requested the complaints advisor assigned to me calls me back to discuss this, as it would seem to me Openreach are the tail wagging the dog!
I'll keep you all posted.
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Well I'm still waiting for PlusNet to see if they can get Openreach to do anything regarding putting right their shoddy workmanship still.
The Plusnet complains advisor has said if they cannot resolve this or Openreach refuse to do any more then they will remove any cancellation charges from my account.
Not really good enough is it given the fact I'm stuck with Openreach until VM get their cables pulled in. How the hell can a company do a job three times that actually makes things worse on all three occasions then refuse to put it right?
The saga continues ........ ::) >:(
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Well after no further response from PlusNet yet again I've had to contact them and rattle their cage.
I now find the only offer they have given me after 13 weeks and a total of 4 Openreach visits, 3 of which have actually decreased my service is to leave with no penalty or stay as is!
So basically Openreach make a total mess of things you lose 20% of the service you had and they refuse to fix the issue they caused in the first place, so much for "We will do you proud", more like "WE WILL DO YOU!!" >:( >:(
I'm furious, I've asked for a deadlock letter and written to Andy Baker the CEO of PlusNet for a second time as I do not believe PlusNet cannot get this fixed by Openreach considering it was Openreach that caused this in the first place.
Openreach the tail wagging the dog that is PlusNet!
Openreach should be disbanded as it's obvious they hold the industry to ransom due to their total monopoly.
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Busa,
Your experience to date matches mine 100%.
Plusnet will not challenge OR under any circumstances!!!
I also have had my line quality degraded by OR and ran into the same brickwall.
Currently, I am getting 60000/20000 on a line that consistently is at Max Attainable 73xxx.
The line tests state No impacts on the line such as REIN, Crosstalk etc etc
I was banded at 66999 *after* the last OR visit (approx 1 year ago) and on 31/03/16 the line was resynced by DLM to 60000/20000.
Plusnet will not chase OR to get a DLM reset.
I have been getting the run around and now get repeated 'the line is within estimates' standard script.
If you manage to get Plusnet to relent please let me know how!!!
Regarding OR I dare not get started as I will offend certain parties :) !!!
As you can see now, regardless of all the promises of change, OR still have total control and can ignore 'their' customers as of old.
We do not matter to OR and Plusnet are too scared to stand up to them.
Best of luck.
Sent from my Samsung SM-P900 via Tapatalk (Typos & Bad formatting are free)
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60Mbps is still better than what a lot of other people can get.
If the lower end of your estimate is to be considered as some sort of minimum guaranteed speed, should people's speeds be capped to the upper end of their estimate?
I'd like to see Openreach doing more to improve the slowest or worst under-performing lines, but that's never going to happen, it's always done on the basis of whoever is complaining the loudest.
And there needs to be more clarity on what is and what isn't a fault - the situation in this thread could have been avoided by not sending out any engineers in the first place.
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@ejs
With all due respect and hopefully without causing offence, I fail to see how quoting that other people get far less is of any relevance at all. I mean I used to get 28.8k in the early to mid 90's and still could but it's hardly relevant and I buy a service based upon my own expectation not what someone else gets.
Having said that maybe it would be fairer if it was paid for on a pro rata basis. I bet things would be done to improve the speeds, fix faults and actually train staff properly if that was the case.
In my case I was getting a connection rate of 50Mbps give or take 1Mbps and this has been reduced to 40Mbps (and still dropping), I accepted that and agreed to paid in full for an 80/20 service based upon this speed as a given based upon almost 4 years of FTTC on a full cabinet.
In my case this is not just a degradation in the service it is blatant vandalism by Openreach and PlusNet my point of sale and supplier are doing nothing to get this corrected.
I'm now seeing:
- A 70 fold increase in errors
- Increased Attenuation
- My download has dropped some 20% (before interleaving kicks in)
- My upload is still way below the 7.5Mbps low level.
Ties too close to Openreach perhaps, that and Openreach having a monopoly?
@ AArdvark
I don't really care if I offend people, that's their problem if all I do is report the truth as I see it. If I'm wrong them I'll hold my hands up and apologise but refusing to answer my questions and giving me political answers is just a red rag to a bull with me I'm afraid. I'm not a typical apathetic Brit ;)
I've written to Andy Baker again, maybe try that but I suspect giving me a complaints advisor was all a smoke screen as after another Openreach visit they have made matters even worse. They call these Engineers, I may be a little harsh here but based upon my experience to date they don't even qualify as Technicians and I wouldn't trust any of the ones I've had to cross the road unaided.
At present all I've been offered to date is as said:
- Leave without penalty
- Continue as is paying the same price for a lesser service.
- Drop onto 40/10 then at end of contract move to 40/2.
None of these are acceptable and actually do nothing to compensate me at all. I would take the first option of VM was live, but as yet all we have is the groundwork and cabinet with no cabling so not really an option right now. any other supplier is still tied to Openreach so pointless.
I'll let you know once I get a further response.
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May I make the suggestion that you take option one, leave Plusnet without penalty? :-\ Then take your custom to Andrews and Arnold (http://aa.net.uk), pass all your currently gathered data to them and allow them to take up & continue the cause with Openreach, on your behalf.
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I'd love too but they don't seem to do an Unlimited option and with kids who are constantly on consoles, youtube, etc. we use quite a bit of data so it would work out very expensive.
TBH I'd love ditching Openreach all together more as I don't really see why we should have to fight for a reasonable service at all.
I was also looking at https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/ (https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/) as they do FTTC with a month to month contract for a little more, anyone have any experience of them?
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Do you really think you use more than 1TB monthly?
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We can do on the odd month :-[ ;)
Even so £60 a month will be hard to justify to the missus and the fact it is still a 12 month contract puts me off even knowing A&A actively pursue Openreach to correct things.
It also looks like it doesn't include telephone or calls?
I'm hopeful VM will be in within a few months so if need be and PlusNet do nothing I will just hold out until then.
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if you using more than 1TB then have a word with your kids because that is absolutely insane usage.
The only type of usage I can see exceeding that is warez downloading.
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Not just the kids mind I need to grab some pretty big 3d models at times as I work in the Oil and Gas game. A full 3d model of an entire platform including subsea layout or FPSO can be a little large as you can imagine.
No warez here
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I need to grab some pretty big 3d models at times as I work in the Oil and Gas game. A full 3d model of an entire platform including subsea layout or FPSO can be a little large as you can imagine
So do you have a business account? :-X
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I use multiple Terabytes per month, I'd imagine a few are due to the BT TV though.
Also if you're uploading these same models it will be slower by a fair amount on virgin media.
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I watch lots of HD netflix and dont come anywhere near close that, also download my games digitally, as well as use other on demand tv/movie services.
Things like BT iptv will be compressed enough so it works without a super fast speed and as a result you not going to get multi TB a month just watching iptv.
Of course if you downloading 4k bluray's a few dozen a month then you can be in the TB's :)
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So do you have a business account? :-X
No but then I don't have a business either, just the same as downloading electronic books doesn't mean I own a library ;)
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Also if you're uploading these same models it will be slower by a fair amount on virgin media.
No uploading of models, just download so I can check a few things when required.
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The AA price may look expensive but it includes the landline rental. How does the price compare to what you currently pay for fibre + phone?
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Currently only paying £32 for line rental and broadband. I pay an extra £3 for free evening and weekend calls too and have a Static IP which cost me the one off fee of £5.
Still works out almost double the cost and then I'd have to go through all the pain of the last 13 weeks again with no guarantee of a fix still.
As of this morning with the introduction of interleaving my speed has now dropped to below the FTTC A Low rate on the downstream and it is still some 1.7Mbps below on the upstream. I've now lost 13Mbps from my download speed in a month, that's 27%!
From DSLStats my actual Max line Rate has increased whilst the actual connection rate has decreased:
xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6532 Kbps, Downstream rate = 45555 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 6466 Kbps, Downstream rate = 37770 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 6.1
Attn(dB): 22.2 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.4 3.5
I'm currently waiting for a call from the PlusNet Complaints Advisor, I really want to hear his defence for this now.
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This (price) is the problem. Cheap ISPs like Plusnet are driving the price right down, now nobody want to pay more for a better service. This in turn shrinks the market for said better service, and makes it's price even higher. I noticed on Plusnet's forums that there were almost as many complaints from existing customer upset because they can't get free broadband like a new customer, as there were people complaining about the poor service.
For me the price wasn't such an issue, on a 20CN non low priced exchange I couldn't get any of these dirt cheap offers anyway, and on a slow line I don't need hundreds of gig per month. So A&A works out £7.50 pm more expensive, I've saved £4 of that by moving the phone line to Pulse 8, and could save more still by moving the line to A&A which would make it effectively no price increase at all.
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Price isn't the real issue for me either but I really can't be bothered to go through all this pain again whilst keep putting money in the pockets of Openreach/BT if I change supplier.
I'll keep on at PlusNet, I have a good case now my download and upload speeds are both below the FTTC A Low range, some 14Mbps download less than prior to my Openreach visit on 11/04/16. My line is not impacted at all either.
I am expecting a call today from their Complaints Advisor, let's see what he has to say now.
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PlusNet are totally unbelievable, just picked up a voicemail left by the Complaints Advisor and he has said they will send out an Openreach Engineer again should I wish however if they do not find anything they will charge me!!
Let me get this straight, I have to pay for someone to not find the fault they caused in the first place?
Are they having a ******* laugh!!! >:( >:( :blush: >:( >:(
[Edited for language - Roseway]
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I agree the system stinks, but you have two realistic options, suck up what plusnet are offering, or move to aaisp who are more likely to chase the problem down.
Also sky have a cooling off period which doesnt expire when line live, I didnt know until someone used it a few days ago on the sky forums. So sky might be an option, migrate, report a fault when below estimate, if they dont do anything migrate out again penalty free. Apparently sky have a higher openreach support contract because they LLU.
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Well that's not how I think.
I think, and I may be in the weird minority here, that when you sign up to a contract both parties should uphold their end of the contract.
I will not walk away from this unless it is in my interests financially, I will stay put and make life very difficult for PlusNet, at least in the short term.
Let's face it there are plenty of high profile forums I can post on, it hurts them far more than it hurts me.
This is the response I got from PlusNet today:
Dear Mr XXX,
I called about 1pm and missed you. A voice mail was left as I’ll be in a meeting later today.
I mentioned ADSL because I was trying to emphasise the difference in speeds, and that you were achieving a fibre speed, hence the cost of the service. I apologise if this didn’t come across as I wished it to.
Your estimate is very relevant. As more people get fibre in your area, the estimate will become more accurate, and the sync speeds may well drop. Based on the last engineers visits, you were lucky to get the speeds which you initially did.
Pairs won’t be continually swapped until a better pair is found unless a verified fault is found on the line.
If you want us to arrange further engineers, I’m happy to do this for you. However, there will be a charge if the engineers don’t find anything wrong.
I will cancel your fees now, but cannot leave them permanently off the account. I will reply apply them if you remain with us.
If you want me to proceed with the visit, please leave suitable times and I'll try to arrange them for you.
Kind regards,
XXX XXXXX
My response to this was:
XXXX,
Let me get this straight, I have to pay for Openreach to not find the fault they caused in the first place? I do not think so!
Did you read any of the above I've just posted, my speed has dropped and as you can see from the BTW Speedtest my download speed is now below the FTTC A Clean Low level, my upload is also still below the FTTC A Low level, my ping has massively increased, my attenuation has increased, power levels on the line have dropped. This is a total failure on every aspect of my line.
If Openreach cannot find a fault that they have caused that has lost me some 13Mbps in actual download speed, has not rectified the upload speed and has left me with the lowest level of service in some 4 years on FTTC then I fail to see why I should have to pay for their lack of ability, I'd like PlusNet to explain this to me.
Regarding the removal of exit fees from my account, may I also point out you are not meeting the obligation of the contract I signed up too so I expect this to be removed permanently regardless of my decision to stay or leave.
I look forward to your response and would very much like to discuss this with you after 4pm today if possible.
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I don't think the low end of your estimate is supposed to be a minimum guaranteed speed. BT.com offers me a FTTC estimate of 20 - 30 Mb (which is my A range), and a minimum guaranteed speed of 17 Mb, which is in the middle of by B range (which is 23 - 11 Mb). I don't think Plusnet offer any minimum guaranteed speeds.
I think the contract you signed up to might not actually be what you want it to be or think it should be.
I am not disputing what you've said about one or more of the Openreach visits having reduced your speed, and therefore I expect it will require another Openreach visit to restore your speed to what is was before.
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judging by their reply that suggests you still within your estimate? As the CS agent is saying its relevant.
If you are within your estimate range, sadly legally you probably have a weak case, your graphs with half the signal missing suggests a fault, the problem is openreach dont use that data to diagnose the line, they do a very simplistic JDSU test that is designed to only fail in extreme cases. Openreach dont care about snrm, bitloading, hlog etc. All they look at is line stability and if speed is within a reasonable range, their reasonable range is clearly different to what you consider reasonable.
Also whats the bit about the fee's?
End of the day what matters more? your wallet or service quality? it seems your wallet does.
ejs likewise sky's guaranteed speed is below the clean range also, I think mine was 40 something mbit, well below my BTw speed estimate.
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That was before the drop I once again suffered today.
As for the estimate I consider the range quoted by the DSLChecker to be reasonable, I'm below that level now and my cab has been pretty much full for some time and I was achieving 49Mbps until Openreach got involved so hardly think a sudden influx of new users is the issue. I would also find it hard to believe this happened on every day they visited me and progressively dropped my speed.
The bit about the fees is removing the penalty for early exit.
This is not as simple as a choice between my wallet or quality and your assumption is actually quite offensive as you know nothing about me at all. I expect to receive what I agree to contractually for the money that was also contractually agreed. I expect the people running the service to have a level of expertise and training to make the service meet those levels.
Is it wrong to expect the service you were promised and pay for?
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What a particularly unpleasant attitude from Plusnet! Even by the standards of the stuff I had from them.
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If Plusnet learn anything from this fiasco, it'll be that they should be more careful about sending out engineers for non-problems in the first place!
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Yes and not to try and fob off Geordie Engineers ;)
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Well I have Openreach coming yet again tomorrow.
This should be interesting as my download speed is now only 33.8Mbps that's a drop of 15.2Mbps (31%) in a month.
Hopefully I get someone who knows and cares enough to fix this but based on the fact PlusNet could not guarantee I'll even get a Broadband Engineer I don't hold up much hope ::) :-[
I really hope I'm wrong! :(
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Have you had a pair swap? - I had lots of issues when I moved over to fibre. In the end after a number of visits I insisted on a pair swap. Gained on the sync and so far no loss of speed yet. Just thought it might be worth a shot if not already done..
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A pair swap was IMHO what caused this in the first place. :-[
OK well another Openreach visit today and they did manage to recover most of my speed back to a connection rate of 47.5Mbps back up from under 35Mbps.
Not all good though as some of this will be down to interleaving coming off with the DLM reset, it's still below the 51Mbps I had before the first Openreach visit on 12/04/16 and not 1/2 hour after the guy left my SNR instantly dropped (N.B. Not a decline but a sudden drop) from 6.2dB to 5.5dB along with a sudden drop of some 1Mbps on the max achievable line rate. The max attainable line rate is currently sat at some 1.6Mbps less than the actual line rate.
As expected errors are through the roof again so no doubt once DLM introduces interleaving again I'll drop further.
So to sum up some improvement, I believe they are sending another Engineer out to check for REIN along the route to my cabinet but will have to wait and see I guess.
The sad thing is why Plusnet and Openreach put me through this in the first place, it's fairly obvious now I was right not just to put up with it or leave as there is actually a problem that needs fixing.
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Still seeing sudden drops and increases in SNR and max attainable line rate, any ideas what could be causing this:
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Although that graph scale makes it look dramatic, if I read it correctly the variation is only around 1dB. Does the drop correspond with a significant increase in errors?
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No errors are not consistent with the sudden SNR change.
I've never had sudden changes like this before, always very slow and usually no more than 1dB over the course of a 24 hour period.
Even worse it's happening all of the time, before I just usually got the slow decline in the evenings before it started to rise again around 10pm. During the day it's always been very stable but not since yesterday.
The strange thing is it's always a 0.7dB step change. So far today:
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A pair swap was IMHO what caused this in the first place. :-[
So did they do another pair swap to swap you back to your original pair?
The sad thing is why Plusnet and Openreach put me through this in the first place, it's fairly obvious now I was right not just to put up with it or leave as there is actually a problem that needs fixing.
I don't really agree. It sounds like things are still worse than before the first pair swap. If it is a REIN issue, that's not something Openreach have any control over, no-one seems to have the authority to break down someone's door and confiscate some electrical device because it's reducing your SNR margin by 0.7 dB, if that's what's causing it.
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They have done multiple pair swaps over the last month. Although the visit yesterday was the only one with any success after the initial drop in speed.
I have been told on numerous occasions I had a line with zero REIN, RFI etc. Even so it was fine until 11/04/16 when Openreach managed to drop my speed drastically, then again on 21/04/16 and finally to the lowest level ever on 28/04/16.
If it is showing I now have REIN then it is more likely to be a commercial property between my house and the cabinet, there are quite a few car showrooms with lovely fluorescent lighting on route. Having said that I hardly think they are turning the lighting on and off every hour or so :P
As said this only happened since yesterday.
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I have Openreach checking for REIN on Friday now but after speaking to the guy who will be carrying out the investigation he thinks after an initial survey that it won't be REIN.
My max attainable line rate has gone back to over 50Mbps but my actual connection speed is dropping almost every day still. My SNR is still jumping up and down by exactly 0.7dB at random times during the day and night and overall it is falling each day by some 0.1 to 0.3dB.
All very strange and as said before this was not happening with the SNR/Max Line Rate until the last visit.
Any ideas what could be causing the sudden 0.7dB change at random intervals? It's definitely nothing in my house causing it.
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Well as suspected there is no REIN.
I still have no explanation why my SNR is suddenly fluctuating by exactly 0.7dB at random times of the day and night, why my attenuation is higher, why half my usable tone range has vanished, why my SNR is slowly drifting down each and every day, it has dropped from 6.2dB to 4.6dB in less than 2 days and it's still dropping.
Does anyone have any ideas as it would seem openreach can't even work out what they have done themselves!
All after openreach intervention
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Think I've solved the reducing SNR, it was the D7000. It's still seeing sudden fluctuations of 0.7dB on my SBG3300-N but at least it's holding the SNR over a 24 hour period.
The D7000 has been returned and I'm going to try the D7800 as I'm on an ECI cabinet.
The rest of the issues still however persist.
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I wonder if that reducing SNR is/was cosmetic. My router on ADSL shows reducing SNR over a few days from a synchronisation, if I resynch the SNR reverts to the original value at the same synch speed. However the reduced SNR doesn't seem to result in higher error rates.