Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: skyeci on February 22, 2016, 12:05:02 PM
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Hi,
I hope someone can help please.
Our master socket is in the worst possible place to run all my network gear from and also has no power supply. I made a temporary power extension and installed modem+ router plus other kit so things work for now. My original goal was to get the master socket moved possible by BT but I am concerned that due to already only getting between 40-50mb on my fibre service if BT make the cable longer by having to move it is this gong to result in a sync rate drop ? - I tried to run the modem from an internal extension for testing and it lost about 10mb on the sync rate but was ok again when returned to the master. I have thought of one other option but again unsure if there will be any issues. What would happen if I fitted a cat6 cable (needs to able to be used externally) from the modem then use this to get it back to my router's wan port where I want it. No more than 30metres. Would this create any network performance issues?
I would appreciate it if someone could offer some advice with regards to the master - will moving it by BT result in sync drop due to extending the original cable up to no 30m max - - any other ideas on this or if I get a network cable installed (cat6) from the modem termination point and run this to the desired location would this result in any network performance loss? Ideally it would be great to have the router and modem out the back but I really don't want to drop sync rate any lower than it already is...
Many thanks for any assistance offered..
cheers
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Not sure whether this helps but i just got my home phone cabling rewired and the main socket moved into a different room and my connection has (marginally) improved. It cost £170 all-in.
The technician rewired right from where the line came into the house replacing all the old cabling.
Personally I don't think there is much risk if the work is done by a competent technician.
C
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Wired properly, moving your master socket will have no impact at all on your speed. The signal has already travelled x00 metres to your premises, another 30metres won't make any difference. Your choice if you want to leave the modem where it is and extend by 30M of Cat6 to the router, again, won't make any difference to your speed.
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If you have more than 100M of Cat 5e between the modem and the router you might have issues. 30M of Cat 6 is guaranteed to be fine.
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If your property is fed by an overhead cable then it may be possible to alter where the existing cable enters, it may even be possible to shorten the cable depending on the route it takes.
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Wired properly, moving your master socket will have no impact at all on your speed. The signal has already travelled x00 metres to your premises, another 30metres won't make any difference. Your choice if you want to leave the modem where it is and extend by 30M of Cat6 to the router, again, won't make any difference to your speed.
Ok thanks for the info. I think the best solution is to get the master moved then there is no equipment stuck in the hallway. The cable comes in at the front of the house so perhaps it will be be extended round from there. I suppose worst case if bt wont do what I ask them to do then I could fall back on the cat 6 option from modem lan port to router...
I dont want our internal wiring used so do you think they would agree to running the cable on the outside of the house ground level - dont need the original extensions re-connected either.
Cheers!
Thanks again.
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There won't be a problem at all. You're the customer, you pays the bucks, you can have the cable re-directed anyway you wish so long as it doesn't infringe on our health & safety policies ...... ie: working in lofts (enclosed spaces) etc. :)
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Sounds good. Thanks. And defo no drop in sync if they do it properly?
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No, why would there be.
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Ha ha ..... I'm not willing to stake my reputation on somebody else's workmanship, or the actual true distance of the cable being re-run, or DLM intervening etc .......
As mentioned by Licq though, the distance involved shouldn't have any great impact at all on the synch speed. :)
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My paranoia of the main cable being extended lol ???
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Wired properly, moving your master socket will have no impact at all on your speed. The signal has already travelled x00 metres to your premises, another 30metres won't make any difference. Your choice if you want to leave the modem where it is and extend by 30M of Cat6 to the router, again, won't make any difference to your speed.
The OP isn't talking about ADSL so 30m extra WILL make a difference on VDSL services given he isn't getting 80/20 now.
Edit - ah he's got one of the old modems and is talking about wiring from modem<->router, not extending the pair run.
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But the distance is insignificant compared to the distance already travelled. As Ronski pointed out, depending where the wires go currently, the distance may even be shorter.
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Wired properly, moving your master socket will have no impact at all on your speed. The signal has already travelled x00 metres to your premises, another 30metres won't make any difference. Your choice if you want to leave the modem where it is and extend by 30M of Cat6 to the router, again, won't make any difference to your speed.
The OP isn't talking about ADSL so 30m extra WILL make a difference on VDSL services given he isn't getting 80/20 now.
If you can tell the difference that 30M extra will make in real world scenarios I would be more than surprised.
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But the distance is insignificant compared to the distance already travelled. As Ronski pointed out, depending where the wires go currently, the distance may even be shorter.
It isn't insignificant at all if we were talking about using CAT5/6 to extend the phoneline for VDSL (FTTC) services that already can't run at max speed.
OP seems to be suggesting a long run of network cable from the BT modem to his router which would be fine as its not extending the circuit length for VDSL services.
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Wired properly, moving your master socket will have no impact at all on your speed. The signal has already travelled x00 metres to your premises, another 30metres won't make any difference. Your choice if you want to leave the modem where it is and extend by 30M of Cat6 to the router, again, won't make any difference to your speed.
The OP isn't talking about ADSL so 30m extra WILL make a difference on VDSL services given he isn't getting 80/20 now.
If you can tell the difference that 30M extra will make in real world scenarios I would be more than surprised.
Then I'm sorry but you really don't know what you're on about.
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Hmm much debate. In an ideal world I would like to move the master socket to where the router should be but this will mean making the main cable longer and definetly not shorter. I don't want any further drop in sync rate so if the best option is to extend the lan port from the modem to the router via cat6 (which will be external) and leave the master where it is and not extend the vdsl service then thats what I will have to consider by the sounds of it. ..
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Your choice, if you rewire the network side you won't see any drop in sync speed. If you move the master socket you may see a slight (1-2Mb/s) drop in sync. As I said previously, not sure that you would notice that in the real world unless you are streaming multiple HD films simultaneously or regularly downloading huge files.
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Your choice, if you rewire the network side you won't see any drop in sync speed. If you move the master socket you may see a slight (1-2Mb/s) drop in sync. As I said previously,
Previously you said there would be no drop
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If the master socket move results in less "line length" between you and the FTTC cab then that would be the optimal solution.
If not then running CAT5e (easier to fit than CAT6 & does 1Gbps) from whatever you use at the master socket (modem/router) to where you actually need the service would be optimal.
Do note that if BT get their way and we end up with g.fast several years on then your phoneline length will be even more critical than it is now. Lunacy on wheels but that's the way we're heading.
Connecting CAT5/6 to the FTTC connection point at the master socket isn't something I'd recommend on anything other than ADSL as it will introduce a discontinuity in the transmission line. Basically CAT5/6 doesn't have the same impedance as the BT twisted pair and this is not a "good thing" for VDSL2 (FTTC) and even more problematic with g.fast.
For those of you thinking "oh it doesn't matter" - that's why you're not RF engineers ;)
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Given that BT installers are known to fashion data extension kits from catv with even a couple of pairs removed, what cable should they be using to have the same impedance as BT twisted-pair?
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If the master socket move results in less "line length" between you and the FTTC cab then that would be the optimal solution.
If not then running CAT5e (easier to fit than CAT6 & does 1Gbps) from whatever you use at the master socket (modem/router) to where you actually need the service would be optimal.
Do note that if BT get their way and we end up with g.fast several years on then your phoneline length will be even more critical than it is now. Lunacy on wheels but that's the way we're heading.
Connecting CAT5/6 to the FTTC connection point at the master socket isn't something I'd recommend on anything other than ADSL as it will introduce a discontinuity in the transmission line. Basically CAT5/6 doesn't have the same impedance as the BT twisted pair and this is not a "good thing" for VDSL2 (FTTC) and even more problematic with g.fast.
For those of you thinking "oh it doesn't matter" - that's why you're not RF engineers ;)
Thanks. I think I am going to just buy a reel of cat 6 and extend the cat6 from the lan port of my modem to the other end of the house. This will leave the phone line totally alone and will only be extending my network. I am sure we can put up with the modem in the hallway.
Thanks to all who contributed.
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Your choice, if you rewire the network side you won't see any drop in sync speed. If you move the master socket you may see a slight (1-2Mb/s) drop in sync. As I said previously,
Previously you said there would be no drop
As far as I'm concerned 1-2Mb/s is virtually no drop.
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Where are you getting the 1-2Mb/s from?
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Same place as everybody else, finger in the air. Until the job is completed it is impossible to tell if (a) there will be any drop at all and (b) what it will be if there is one. We don't know the quality of the existing installation.
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I think that's the answer skynewb was after
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Given that BT installers are known to fashion data extension kits from catv with even a couple of pairs removed, what cable should they be using to have the same impedance as BT twisted-pair?
Who knows? It'll depend on what decade your phoneline was installed I'd guess - different gauges/different metals/different cable bundles have been used over the years. I'd be surprised if BT had a clue for a lot of historical plant. Edit - and I'd be astounded if they'd ever had figures for 15/30/60/100MHz insertion losses/xtalk in the first place for that plant.
However what you have to bear in mind is that this is going to become a lot worse if :
a) g.fast is the chosen method to compete with Virgin;
b) Ofcom go full retard & permit sub-loop unbundling on Thursday 25 Feb.
ADSL works up to 2MHz, VDSL2 (FTTC) works up to 15MHz in the UK (30MHz elsewhere), g.fast works up to 110MHz. The higher the frequency, the more problems you have with old copper due to shortening effective antenna lengths. Edit2 - as the effective antenna length shortens then sections of cable with faults/dodgy joints are going to be radiating/receiving a lot more than they do now.
Still I suppose it keeps people in work.
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Why not run the network cable in as a data extension and then see what speed you get, if the drop is too much then it's an easy job to fit network sockets at each end and have the modem by the master socket.
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. . . VDSL2 (FTTC) works up to 15MHz in the UK . . .
Huh? 17 Mhz, I believe. :-\
Let's check: 4096 x 4.3125 kHz = 17664 kHz
i.e.~17 MHz (with some left over!) ;)
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. . . VDSL2 (FTTC) works up to 15MHz in the UK . . .
Huh? 17 Mhz, I believe. :-\
Let's check: 4096 x 4.3125 kHz = 17664 kHz
i.e.~17 MHz (with some left over!) ;)
Quite true, well spotted and mea culpa.
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Quite true, well spotted and mea culpa.
:drink:
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Yeah... and I need a 'bangs heads together icon'!
Better yet.. lets all have one of these and keep it civil. tyvm
:drink:
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Why not run the network cable in as a data extension and then see what speed you get, if the drop is too much then it's an easy job to fit network sockets at each end and have the modem by the master socket.
Er hmm - sorry can you just explain that in a bit more detail please. Thanks
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Why not run the network cable in as a data extension and then see what speed you get, if the drop is too much then it's an easy job to fit network sockets at each end and have the modem by the master socket.
Er hmm - sorry can you just explain that in a bit more detail please. Thanks
He means use a Cat5/6 cable to extend the phoneline temporarily and see what happens to the sync speed. Thats a good idea if you have the cable/connectors to do it.
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Why not run the network cable in as a data extension and then see what speed you get, if the drop is too much then it's an easy job to fit network sockets at each end and have the modem by the master socket.
Er hmm - sorry can you just explain that in a bit more detail please. Thanks
He means use a Cat5/6 cable to extend the phoneline temporarily and see what happens to the sync speed. Thats a good idea if you have the cable/connectors to do it.
Ok this sounds interesting and worth a go perhaps. I have vdsl faceplate on top of the master socket which openreach fitted. I noticed the 2 terminals at the top left behind the lower face plate. Would it be these that I would need to join onto? Marked a and b
I also assume I would also need some sort of face plate faceplate on the end of the 30 metres so I can test it out. I am thinking try this first before actually fitting anything. Do I need to use particular colours or irrelevant provide the right colour goes on the right place.. bit of help here would be great. Thanks!
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Connect to yellow arrowed connectors in the picture. Just use the blu-wh/blu pair (any pair will do as long as it is a pair and not 2 odd wires). Just connect to a temporary RJ11 socket.
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You could use an RJ45 socket because an RJ11 modem lead will plug into an RJ45 socket and then you could use the same socket if you decide to go for the network connection instead.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat5e-Single-Socket-Ethernet-Network/dp/B000Q6LSDQ
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Thanks everyone, really helpful - plenty of options to think about.
Dray - sorry just one query as ever... if I opt for a cat6 kit which comes with a cat6 face plate what pins would I use on the faceplate to connect the cable as a test for the vdsl modem. I believe its 4&5 but not completely sure.
cheers!
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I think so..
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Pins 4 & 5 of a socket that accepts an RJ45 plug would also map to pins 3 & 4 of an RJ11/RJ12 plug.
So if I have followed what you intend to try correctly, you would connect the two IDCs marked A & B from the SSFP to the pins 4 & 5 of the RJ45 socket by using one twisted pair from the CAT5e cable.
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Pins 4 & 5 of a socket that accepts an RJ45 plug would also map to pins 3 & 4 of an RJ11/RJ12 plug.
So if I have followed what you intend to try correctly, you would connect the two IDCs marked A & B from the SSFP to the pins 4 & 5 of the RJ45 socket by using one twisted pair from the CAT5e cable.
Thanks - I am slowly getting it lol.. but just one thing I am going to use CAT6 and not cat 5 so assuming this makes no difference
cheers :)
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CAT6 is over-specification for the current-day situation but its usage will "future-proof" that segment of your wiring.
CAT6 is also stiffer and thus physically more difficult to install than CAT5e.
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But the wiring will be the same
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But the wiring will be the same
Indeed it will. :)
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CAT6 is over-specification for the current-day situation but its usage will "future-proof" that segment of your wiring.
CAT6 is also stiffer and thus physically more difficult to install than CAT5e.
Yeap I know its a bit ott but it means if I have to go Ethernet to ethernet I will be getting gigabit at the router end.
Thanks again to all - will report back once I have had a chance to erm break stuff :lol:
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You can get gigabit on cat5e. I do
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You can get gigabit on cat5e.
b*cat nods in agreement.
1 Gbps uses all four pairs in the cable, whereas 100 Mbps will only use two pairs in the cable.
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Hi
We have used cat5e for many years in gig links, no issue and all have been fluke tested/certified.
There is 1 additional aspect which most forget, and that is the link to broadband speeds, now if broadband speed were higher then your link to internal network, then this becomes the slowest link, but consider that some router gives 1 gb link to internal network, but broadband is currently around 300 mbps, (and that's expensive) why would you install cat6, particularly when you consider fttc is 80/20 max (at the moment) and it may take years for speeds to reach anywhere close to 1 gbps, so we always say overkill.
I am aware Google have started 1 gbps in 5 USA states for under preverlige users, and uk scientists have pushed 5g to 1 gbps, but in the real world, we not see those speeds any time soon I think
Also, personally, for anything higher then 1 gbps I prefer fibre and not cat6
Many thanks
John
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You can get gigabit on cat5e. I do
Yeap my bad!... :-[
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I suppose you can get 10G on cat6 which you can't on cat5, but anyway you may as well start thinking about fibre these days.
One advantage of cat6 is that the copper is thicker so you should get a better VDSL connection.
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whereas 100 Mbps will only use two pairs in the cable.
Which is why I use 2-pair CW1308 phone cable for my in-home LAN. Much easier to run and hide. ;)
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whereas 100 Mbps will only use two pairs in the cable.
Which is why I use 2-pair CW1308 phone cable for my in-home LAN. Much easier to run and hide. ;)
A good tip. :)
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A good tip. :)
Thanks. SWMBO still has no idea we have a cabled LAN connection to the PVR in the lounge, part of it follows the route of an old (now unused) telephone extension (replaced cable pretty much like with like) and it continues very unobtrusively along the skirting board.
Total about 25 to 30 metres due to the meandering route between almost opposite extremes of the house, but no-one except me (and a lot of people online!) knows it's there.
100mbps is fine as I'm only using it for broadband access, currently below 20mbps and even if I get FTTC it will only be about 60.
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Hi everyone
I thought I would update this as I had some time today.. Where ideally I would like the modem and router to be is by sheer luck the first extension in the circuit when the house developers wired the house. We don't use any of the others as we have wireless handsets. I noticed on the extension I wanted to use they had brought the other cables to the backplate and connected them here to make the other sockets work.
So I disconnected the other sockets and used one of the spare pairs from the master socket which goes to the first extension and connected this to the A&B data extension points. I obtained a cat5e faceplate and connected 2 wires on to 4&5 and used a cat5>rj11 modem cable. The modem has duly connected and at present has only lost what appears to be a tiny amount of sync rate when compared with the master.
Looking at the figures its about 700k on the download and around 900k on the upload. Perhaps this could be DLM but maybe this is a workable solution for us as will save paying BT and or a lot of work to get the cable to the back of the house. I suppose the question is could I live with the small drop in speed to make life a whole lot easier.. ::)
Is this method deemed acceptable
Many thanks
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It certainly sounds like it could be OK, but you will really be able to tell when you see the level of errors on your line.
Note an RJ11 plug will fit that socket and work the same.
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ok thanks - I Better hook up the 8800nl and see what it reports. I guess I need to be looking at crc, fec & ses ?
cheers
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Hi everyone
I thought I would update this as I had some time today.. Where ideally I would like the modem and router to be is by sheer luck the first extension in the circuit when the house developers wired the house. We don't use any of the others as we have wireless handsets. I noticed on the extension I wanted to use they had brought the other cables to the backplate and connected them here to make the other sockets work.
So I disconnected the other sockets and used one of the spare pairs from the master socket which goes to the first extension and connected this to the A&B data extension points. I obtained a cat5e faceplate and connected 2 wires on to 4&5 and used a cat5>rj11 modem cable. The modem has duly connected and at present has only lost what appears to be a tiny amount of sync rate when compared with the master.
Looking at the figures its about 700k on the download and around 900k on the upload. Perhaps this could be DLM but maybe this is a workable solution for us as will save paying BT and or a lot of work to get the cable to the back of the house. I suppose the question is could I live with the small drop in speed to make life a whole lot easier.. ::)
Is this method deemed acceptable
Many thanks
Certainly sounds a good result and is perfectly acceptable.
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just trying to get hgstats working on the 8800nl, would anyone mind having a look at the data when I get it working please, thanks ::)
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If you can run it 24*7 that would be ideal.
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yeap its up and running now 24/7 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D - search for user SKYTESTER
latency graph activated too
not much data at the mo but would appreciate some feed back as it grows. I think due to the nightmare of getting the cable to the back of the house from the inside & if this not suitable long term I think I will probably just get the socket moved from the outside and take the hit - trust the developer/bt to fit it the master in the most non usable place ever :lol:
now all my kit has moved to where I want it I really don't want to move it back. Happy to lose a bit of sync rate if this seems like a workable option longterm which in turn = happy life/wife/family lol
many thanks!
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Thanks to all that offered advice. In the end the data extension caused issues so I started cabling from the modem to the router and a couple of other rooms. Completed yesterday with external cat 5e as everything had to go out and round.
All completed and seems ok with gigabit working too. Really happy to be able to get the router in the right place and as an early christmas gift my eci line had g.inp enabled yesterday which resulted in an 8ms delay being removed, nice!
Cheers
(New id on mydsl of skyeci)
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A most satisfactory ending has finally been achieved! :)
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Totally.....fingers crossed the 11ms latency remains. I would take the minor hit on sync rate after g.inp has been enabled just to keep the latency change ;)