Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: tickmike on February 19, 2016, 02:16:56 PM
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Radio Detection Of REIN. (Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise).
Yesterday I did a survey of interference following the cable route, as previously confirmed by an Openreach technician all the way from my house to the exchange 4.5kl away.
Using a medium wave radio set to 612kHz, I had only gone 350 Mts and picked up some quite strong signal and the next, a very, very large signal was just around the corner from the exchange some 4.2kl away.
My isp have been trying different things to improve my line but have said they will arrange an Openreach technician to start doing tests then hand it over to the REIN investigators. :hmm:
Edit.. I also noted a radio transmitter mast about 3.9 kl away next to the cable route, trying to find out what it is used for (it used to be a lighting company ) Could be a mobile phone booster station.
Edit.. It Is.
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Out of interest do you know why people are advised to check at that particular single frequency? For example looking at my own line there doesn't seem to be a dip at that frequency, nor any bit swapping. On the other hand at other frequencies there are quite marked "holes" in the bit loading.
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I think it's a quite part of the band although I did have to move to 615kHz as a french station came up during my tests.
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Out of interest do you know why people are advised to check at that particular single frequency?
Possibly because that's the frequency used by the test gear which Openreach use. Another possible reason is that there aren't any UK medium wave radio stations operating near that frequency. REIN tends to be wideband in nature, so the exact frequency doesn't matter much.
Narrow dips in the bitloading aren't likely to be REIN. They are often caused by strong MW radio stations, and you can check yours here: http://www.mediumwaveradio.com/uk.php (http://www.mediumwaveradio.com/uk.php)
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As Eric says 612kHz is used by BT.
https://www.btwholesale.com/assets/documents/Orders_and_Faults/REIN_Introduction_for_CPs_v10.pdf
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm
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Out of interest do you know why people are advised to check at that particular single frequency? For example looking at my own line there doesn't seem to be a dip at that frequency, nor any bit swapping. On the other hand at other frequencies there are quite marked "holes" in the bit loading.
As pointed out, OR REIN engineers are guided towards using 612kHz (MW) because there generally isn't anything near it, radio station-wise. However, it's only a guide and as another poster commented, that annoying Frenchy station can sometimes be heard so 'tweaking' up or down the frequency scale is acceptable.
Also you could use LW (as well as MW) to locate REIN ....... the advice is to tune in as low down the LW scale as possible. I've never had cause to use LW, so cannot comment on its success rate.
C&P ............ 'A cheap AM radio capable of receiving at least MW band is ideal. Tune it into a station towards the bottom end of the frequency scale that does not pick up a station (i.e. just a bit of background hiss), e.g. ~612kHz.
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REIN is very difficult to pinpoint using 612Khz as most items with mains switching and transformers around the house give out that buzzing noise when the Radio is close to 1 -2 meter of the source all REIN is caused by the the Mains 240v AC
Radio Frequency Interference is easier to pinpoint as it shows up well using graphs tones bitloading you will see a chunk of tones missing in the band of RFI
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Where from the REIN get into modem? From mains or rather wireless? Perhaps power strip with EMI/RFI filter would be helpful.
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Where from the REIN get into modem? From mains or rather wireless? Perhaps power strip with EMI/RFI filter would be helpful.
It would be radiated into the modem just like radio waves the only difference is it's lower down the spectrum at 50hz but these frequency's bleed over into higher frequency's the best way I can describe this it's called resonance.
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NewtronStar: I don't understand. Are power strips with EMI/RFI filter helpful?
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NewtronStar: I don't understand. Are power strips with EMI/RFI filter helpful?
Surge protection is helpful to protect against mains spikes which can cause damage on electronic components that are connected to that power strip and always use one, the other with RFI filters I don't have much faith in them because my Radio Frequency Interference is coming in on the pairs not from the mains 240v AC
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REIN is very difficult to pinpoint using 612Khz as most items with mains switching and transformers around the house give out that buzzing noise when the Radio is close to 1 -2 meter of the source all REIN is caused by the the Mains 240v AC
That's what I found. According to my radio just about everything in the house seemed to radiate something at that frequency, for example the fluorescent lights and LEDs in the garage were just about deafening at close range. What doesn't seem to be clear is how to link that noise with whether it is or is not affecting the DSL other than by switching each device off and watching error rates and SNR (and of course you could do that anyway without the prior AM radio checks).
It's struck me from my single experience with REIN investigation is that it's sometimes used by both ISP and OR as a convenience to avoid having to track down the real fault.
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REIN is very difficult to pinpoint using 612Khz as most items with mains switching and transformers around the house give out that buzzing noise when the Radio is close to 1 -2 meter of the source all REIN is caused by the the Mains 240v AC
That's what I found. According to my radio just about everything in the house seemed to radiate something at that frequency, for example the fluorescent lights and LEDs in the garage were just about deafening at close range. What doesn't seem to be clear is how to link that noise with whether it is or is not affecting the DSL other than by switching each device off and watching error rates and SNR (and of course you could do that anyway without the prior AM radio checks).
It's struck me from my single experience with REIN investigation is that it's sometimes used by both ISP and OR as a convenience to avoid having to track down the real fault.
Your first paragraph is spot-on. Your second couldn't be further from the truth.
Because REIN faulting is effectively a totally free service that Openreach very kindly offer, there has to be a very good reason to have a case raised. For information purposes, the ISP can't have a case raised, only the OR Engineer, and as mooted the pro-forma to this being done is pretty involved.
On both ADSL and VDSL, the engineer has to change the E-side, D-side and carry out a 'Lift & Shift'. As well as ensuring the internal wiring is up to par and a SSFP installed. Then, he/she has to ring the Openreach Diagnostic Centre of Excellence (if it is a BT Classic circuit) to speak with the REIN Team, who will trawl through historical data pretty much like the guys on MDWS do here, to try and determine if REIN is the cause.
The engineer is also sometimes expected to drive around the immediate vicinity with his van radio on 612kHz for the REIN team to listen to.
If it is a LLU circuit, the engineer has to speak with the ISP's Tier 2 service who do the same as OR's DCoE, and they then have to e-mail a data-pack to the REIN Team, who go over it themselves to decide whether a REIN Case is worthy of raising ??
This is not aimed at you aesmith in any way, shape or form. Please don't take it as such ............. but this is an example of how naïve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes. :) :)
The
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> the engineer has to change the E-side, D-side and carry out a 'Lift & Shift'.
BlackSheep, I don't really understand what's involved here, when choosing a new pair are you looking for one that measures rather better than the original?
> this is an example of how naïve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.
Quite true. It would do BT some good in PR terms if the public were to see more of a glimpse into just how much is involved.
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> the engineer has to change the E-side, D-side and carry out a 'Lift & Shift'.
BlackSheep, I don't really understand what's involved here, when choosing a new pair are you looking for one that measures rather better than the original?
> this is an example of how naïve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.
Quite true. It would do BT some good in PR terms if the public were to see more of a glimpse into just how much is involved.
If possible, yes.
The tick-sheet is there as a kind of 'Idiots guide' for engineers. As with all things BT, they have to cover all instances and all levels of aptitude/ability (ie: new starters).
If the PQT passes with flying colours, and there is no sign of erroring at the PCP, then I wouldn't personally perform an E-side change for obvious reasons. Same as on the D-side. But, those are the guidelines and the REIN team are very strict with them, I can't confirm it but I suspect they are targeted at keeping un-paid REIN work to a minimum and to only raise a case if deemed totally necessary ??
[Moderator edited to fix a broken bbc tag.]
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.... but this is an example of how naïve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.
That's the whole point in my opinion, how is Joe Public supposed to know about what goes on "behind the scenes". All we can go on is what we're told by our ISP and by OR guys dispatched on our particular call(s). And in my case all I saw was inability or unwillingness to carry out any further testing once they'd decided it was REIN, and that diagnosis seemed to be based on the the shakiest of grounds.
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.... but this is an example of how naïve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.
That's the whole point in my opinion, how is Joe Public supposed to know about what goes on "behind the scenes". All we can go on is what we're told by our ISP and by OR guys dispatched on our particular call(s). And in my case all I saw was inability or unwillingness to carry out any further testing once they'd decided it was REIN, and that diagnosis seemed to be based on the the shakiest of grounds.
That's the thing, you're not. You have to accept what your ISP tells you as things stand at the minute. Not Openreach's fault, Ofcom dictated it would be this way.
However it is, now or in the future ................. OR and the ISP's don't use REIN as '"sometimes used by both ISP and OR as a convenience to avoid having to track down the real fault.". Which was the point I was hoping to make.
Admin - fixed bb tags.
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What would be interesting to know is how many faults are actually PROVED to be caused by REIN. I rather suspect it is a very low proportion of the number of investigations.
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What would be interesting to know is how many faults are actually PROVED to be caused by REIN. I rather suspect it is a very low proportion of the number of investigations.
I can't give actualities, but based on my own personal experience I'd say approx. 60-70% are true to REIN. This has definitely improved from the 20-30% of cases when I first started REIN faulting. I think both OR and the ISP's started to take it seriously around that time ??
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Now that is interesting, what is the most common cause?
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Now that is interesting, what is the most common cause?
Again, in my own experience ....... set-top boxes. Where I live there are strong Asian/Polish communities, and they have their own 'Chipped' boxes that seem to be a major problem. Don't get me wrong, there's the 'Chipped' SKY boxes as well that emanate REIN due to cheap electronics utilised.
I'd say by far and away, these account for 70-80% of the cases I've attended. The other's have included cheap LED lighting, TV's and a rather tricky one that turned out to be a small fish-tank's flu-tube light, that was only turned on from time-to-time. If you pardon the pun ........ one gets a buzz (Audible REIN noise on 612kHz), when the source is finally found !! :)
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Those all sound like the sources were quite close to the line or to the modem, was that the case? Have you ever had a case where the source was hundreds of yards from the line?
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Those all sound like the sources were quite close to the line or to the modem, was that the case? Have you ever had a case where the source was hundreds of yards from the line?
Absolutely yes.
It took 3 days to locate the source of the 'Noise', and it was affecting EU's up to approx. 1/2 mile away !! The 'noise' had tracked back to the Cab and induced into other D-side cables. I have only ever known this happen this one time.
The offending item turned out to be a decades old stand-alone telephone answering machine. Our area had recently been subject to a massive lightning storm, and it was this unit that had been the subject of the nearby-strike.
The problem we had was, it didn't matter where you drove round with the radio tuned to 612kHz .... the same buzzing-noise pitch could be heard within this enormous 1/2 mile radius !! Generally, we can narrow the area down to a block of houses, etc .....
With the absence of 'Directional Antennaes' that the Precision Test Officers have to hand, we (me and another engineer) had to resort to climbing DP's and using the 444b tester to try and determine where the signal was at its strongest. 3 days later we found the source in this poor, unassuming, elderly gentlemans house. He was so apologetic about it, no matter how many times we told him it was in no way his fault. What a lovely man, compared to todays 'So what' yoof !! :no:
A great learning curve for me, but this really was a one-off from what I've been involved in, before and after this particular case. :)
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small fish-tank's flu-tube light,
I found this was the cause in my friends house but it was using leds on the tank and because they also use these power-line adapters the sync was close to 13 Mbps then removed fish tank lights the sync increased to 26 Mbps then removed the power line adapters and used Cat5 cable the sync increased to 75 Mbps that's is what REIN does on the EU's line :o
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Wow !! that is a helluva increase !!
TBH, it's very rare to receive a VDSL REIN case, probably due to REIN mainly affecting the lower frequencies that provide ADSL service.
In effect, the ADSL user notices the speed drop and sometime inability to attain synch through REIN-swamping noise, whereas due to the large amount of bandwidth left open to VDSL users, they just crack on oblivious to it all. Only someone who is 'switched on' and using stat-based monitoring would probably notice an issue on VDSL services ??
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A couple of interesting cases there, guys. I can see why I prefer digital :'(
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Now that is interesting, what is the most common cause?
Again, in my own experience ....... set-top boxes. Where I live there are strong Asian/Polish communities, and they have their own 'Chipped' boxes that seem to be a major problem. Don't get me wrong, there's the 'Chipped' SKY boxes as well that emanate REIN due to cheap electronics utilised.
I'd say by far and away, these account for 70-80% of the cases I've attended. The other's have included cheap LED lighting, TV's and a rather tricky one that turned out to be a small fish-tank's flu-tube light, that was only turned on from time-to-time. If you pardon the pun ........ one gets a buzz (Audible REIN noise on 612kHz), when the source is finally found !! :)
It ain't the chipped boxes per say ( I've fixed enough with both internal and external PSU's so cheep i'm amazed they actually work properly with the floating earth and ripple), I've personally narrowed it down even further, It's the cheap chinese power supplies and it stretches to a lot modern electronics.
That said, when I investigated my own rein issue I tracked it down to my next door neighbor, and his TV, coupled to a sky HD box via HDMI cable, then transmitting it up the phone line from the boxes built in modem. I offered to fix the offending device and re-cap the PSU before it inevitably blows , he refused. I said don't ask me to fix it when it blows, it blew the rein was gone, he asked me to fix the TV and I said NO, you missed the boat mate.
Also your spot on about rein affecting ADSL more than VDSL, I suspect it less about frequency( I've seen powerline ethernet cause rein at higher VDSL frequencies).
I had the rein before and after I switched to VDSL however there are a few reasons why VDSL is less prone.
the BT Openreach VDSL faceplate filters which I fitted to try to help the ADSL rein made quite a difference even to ADSL2+, I gained 3mbps in my case with the openreach VDSL faceplate (mk1 at the time) over known good microfilters. With openreach VDSL faceplates and managed installs being standard until recently with VDSL, where as most ADSL self installs with connections use Microfilters, i Think this has been a big factor too.
Also because of the extra distance involved with ADSL, by the time the signal gets to your home the signal is far weaker, attenuated and prone to being affected by noise, than the VDSL signal which is generated alot closer to home than the exchange in most cases. This was clear and obvious when I switched to FTTC in the DSL stats, even with the rein at the I had an attainable rate of 94mbps so it wasn't affecting speeds at the time, even in the rein region the SNR on VDSL is vastly better, it would just load up the bit's elsewhere anyway.
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Nice bit of info there Rag ...... thank you.
Obviously, where Openreach are concerned, we aren't faulting down to component level ................ I doubt I could even if I wanted to :lol:. We simply source the item, explain the problems it causes, and then fill a report out that goes back to the ISP via our REIN team.
I absolutely concur about the weakened ADSL signal state etc, but of the many REIN case I've attended now, there's very, very few that have seen the interference go above 3.5Mhz on the Spectrum Analyser in my experience. :)
Our very own Chief Engineers office also replied to my correspondence when I first began REIN faulting asking for details on fault frequencies, they mentioned that even with VDSL affected circuits, it would be as rare as Unicorn poo to have the SA sweep set above 7.5Mhz and see service affecting noise. Like I say, just my experience and there's always something that goes against the grain.
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My case is a little more complex.
I had a very nice BT OR engineer come last week spent 5hrs looking into my problems which has been going on for weeks / months as some of you will remember from some of my other posts.
Something (maybe street lighting ) is affecting the downstream SNR Margin 24/7 364 days a year (note Not 365 as there was one day it did not happen over last xmas new year, but I can not find what day it was).
He said my 4.3kl 'E' side was very good but getting some cross talk on 'D' side, he did a pair swap but only made it a bit better for noise.
It had no effect on the main problem with the changes in ambient light effecting my line.
The drop out on the first graph is either the RAIN team or my isp doing anther copper line test of many.
It's under the RAIN team this week as an urgent investigation.
Should get feed back from isp tomorrow.
Edit .. Note on the second graph about 9am when we had had heavy rain and it went very dark :o
Second edit (My brain :doh: ) Some of the tests when it was getting dark (about 17.15hrs last week) and the change was taking place with the engineer looking on , I turned all power off and pulled the service fuse to prove it was nothing in my house .
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Those all sound like the sources were quite close to the line or to the modem, was that the case? Have you ever had a case where the source was hundreds of yards from the line?
Absolutely yes. ... The offending item turned out to be a decades old stand-alone telephone answering machine. ...
Thanks. But presumably that answering machine was close to at least one phone line, if not actually connected to it. What I meant to ask was whether you'd come across cases where the source was hundreds of yards from any phone phone line.
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Ah right, I see. Erm, from memory nope ...... not distances as great as that in my experience. I do know my colleagues up Cumbria have an on-going issue with the Virgin Pendolino train in as much as when it passes it knocks out quite a few houses due to REIN. It's only momentarily though, until the router (Get this ;)) 'Re-trains'. Sorry.
I have only got this info by word of mouth from a 'Coach' (Lead engineer if you like .... some are good, some aren't), who knows another 'Coach' up there trying to deal with it. I genuinely don't know anything else about it but it does sound like an instance you may be referring to ??
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'Re-trains'. ;D
I used to work on train Pantograph testing at the British Rail Research Division we helped to design the
'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brecknell_Willis_High_Speed_Pantograph'
The modern Pantograph should not produce lots on arc's (sparks), if it happens a one point there could be whats called a neutral section in that location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=x-raw-image:///f207101f721b7d48c898e12d000eee66bdc685324fbd2255b067e699da99c073&imgrefurl=http://www.siemens.com/download?DLA14_41&h=333&w=629&tbnid=SH0bch8QB_JK7M:&docid=J97ztb2UsGDYnM&ei=86HYVu-kC8HWUf7OncAN&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwiv6qPpsKXLAhVBaxQKHX5nB9gQMwhHKB8wHw
You can get arching at a neutral section.
I was involved in interference investigation near London but I found it was a Sewage pump not the railway.
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Up-date on my REIN :) investigation .
Here is an interesting graph !.
You can see on the LHS when it gets dark the downstream dips, then two copper line tests (done by the REIN team [maybe] looking in to what is causing the dip) this upsets the upstream for the rest of the night.
I resisted re-booting. while they are still testing.
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Just had news from my isp
"I've finally had a response from the REIN team. They detected REIN at a third party premises. As a result they've sent an access request letter to that premises requesting permission to continue their investigation."
Maybe if they let them investigate we may get some results at last.
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;D
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If this is any help 98% of my generated errored seconds seems to come from my next door neighbours premises it is a semi detached and once they leave and go to the country house for 4-5 days the ES count drops almost to 0 ES per day.
We know when there back when we here that yappy jack russell >:( and a increase in errored seconds.
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Has anyone tried to use the DIRECTIVE 2014/30/EU to enforce either the owner of faulty equipment or BT/Openreach to resolve the issue of R.E.I.N? This new legislation came into effect recently and basically says that equipment should not cause interference but also and Interestingly, the EMC Directive also requires that equipment should be immune from interference, i.e. the drop lines supplied by BT/OR. I am in a situation where faulty equipment has been proven but neither the owners not BTOR are willing to do anything about it. I have consulted my local Trading Standards and although they agree they cannot prosecute either companies as the issue has been ongoing for over 3 years. I am awaiting a reply from Ofcom regarding this situation and will report back here once I have something to add.
I wonder if there are any BTOR engineers here that may be able to add anything to this? Has this new Directive been discussed with you? If not why? Can you raise it with your managers?
Quick excerpt from the Directive :
Definitions:
(4) ‘electromagnetic compatibility’ means the ability of equipment to function satisfactorily in its electromagnetic environment without introducing intolerable electromagnetic disturbances to other equipment in that environment;
(5) ‘electromagnetic disturbance’ means any electromagnetic phenomenon which may degrade the performance of equipment; an electromagnetic disturbance may be electromagnetic noise, an unwanted signal or a change in the propagation medium itself;
(6) ‘immunity’ means the ability of equipment to perform as intended without degradation in the presence of an electromagnetic disturbance;
(8) ‘electromagnetic environment’ means all electromagnetic phenomena observable in a given location;
Some food for thought there for anyone suffering this very annoying problem!
All the best.
Barnyard
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My understanding of EU directives is that they have no effect, until (if ever) they are passed into law by member states. If BT, or Trading standards, were to be legally compelled to take action it would need to be on the basis of some piece of UK legislation, not an EU directive. If no such UK legislation exists, the EU directive is largely irrelevant to ordinary citizens, organisations and companies.
Happy as always to be corrected, but that is my understanding. :)
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If this is any help 98% of my generated errored seconds seems to come from my next door neighbours premises it is a semi detached and once they leave and go to the country house for 4-5 days the ES count drops almost to 0 ES per day.
We know when there back when we here that yappy jack russell >:( and a increase in errored seconds.
Have you ever found what may be causing the REIN issue? If you do, wait until they go away again and then shoot it! :lol:
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My understanding of EU directives is that they have no effect, until (if ever) they are passed into law by member states. If BT, or Trading standards, were to be legally compelled to take action it would need to be on the basis of some piece of UK legislation, not an EU directive. If no such UK legislation exists, the EU directive is largely irrelevant to ordinary citizens, organisations and companies.
Happy as always to be corrected, but that is my understanding. :)
Read Here: http://findlaw.co.uk/law/government/european_law/basics_european_law/eu-directives.html
It does not need to be passed into law. It is a directive that each member state must abide by.
I must forward this to Ofcom as they seem completely useless at doing anything correctly and worthwhile ;D
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Read Here: http://findlaw.co.uk/law/government/european_law/basics_european_law/eu-directives.html
It does not need to be passed into law. It is a directive that each member state must abide by.
Your link doesn't seem to support what you said, it says that EU directives do need to be made into UK laws.
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Read Here: http://findlaw.co.uk/law/government/european_law/basics_european_law/eu-directives.html
It does not need to be passed into law. It is a directive that each member state must abide by.
As ejs says, the link seems to support my understanding that the only people affected by a directive are the member state legislators (our MPs), as they are required to create a National law that encompasses the directive. But until (if ever) they do so, it has no effect on the rest of us. That remains my understanding, or am I missing something?
Edit: Remove quoted material & acknowledge ejs. :)
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I can see what you are saying, it is somewhat confusing ??? However after taking a lot of advice from Trading Standards and CE they both state that it is in fact applicable. I am still awaiting Ofcom's response and if they agree also I am going to be taking on two Mammoth companies with more legal clout than I dare think about.
This makes for a more digestible piece of reading and makes it a bit clearer. http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/what-is-guide-to-key-eu-terms/eu-legislation-what-is-an-eu-directive.html
Cheers ;D
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I can see what you are saying, it is somewhat confusing ??? However after taking a lot of advice from Trading Standards and CE they both state that it is in fact applicable. I am still awaiting Ofcom's response and if they agree also I am going to be taking on two Mammoth companies with more legal clout than I dare think about.
This makes for a more digestible piece of reading and makes it a bit clearer. http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/what-is-guide-to-key-eu-terms/eu-legislation-what-is-an-eu-directive.html
Cheers ;D
As far as I can see, that link merely supports what I have stated as my understanding, and supports what the previous link said, albeit shrouded in 'ifs' 'buts' and 'maybes', that EU directives must be passed into state law before they take effect.
Which Trading Standards Office have you spoken to? Time was, they were an organisation with real teeth, you could call up and speak to somebody who'd get the job done, but iirc you needed to contact the office where the offender's head office was located. In more recent years they've become pretty much inaccessible, hiding behind 'consumer direct' and lately 'citizens advice'. :(
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I've been REIN faulting for a number of years now, and the way I was told and still appears to be the case, is that we have no powers to remove offending items from EU's premises or 3rd party premises.
That is apart from amateur radio hams. The reasoning being that they are knowingly broadcasting as opposed to say a 3rd party who has cheap LED lighting that emanates HF noise.
I have only had one Ham's equipment found to be a source of REIN (In the beautiful Ribble Valley), and he was more than helpful.
As regards your comment, "BTOR aren't willing to do anything about it". We have already gone outside of our current remit and investigated the source of the REIN affecting your circuit ..... for free !! Openreach don't get paid to do this from anyone, it is a goodwill gesture.
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Sometimes I wish I'd studied law, it seemed so dull when I was young but as I age it gets more interesting. Looking at the directive in more detail, I see it has no transitional period - that may indeed mean intakes effect immediately, not sure? :-\
But also in detail, it includes...
(10)Radio equipment and telecommunications terminal equipment should not be covered by this Directive
That would seem to let the router and DSLAMs off the hook, but for for clarification of what it might mean, I found..
http://www.conformance.co.uk/adirectives/doku.php?id=emc
That page again is where I noticed there is no transitional period, and clarifies that most communications equipment will be excluded, since it is covered instead by the R&TTE Directive, which is summarised here:
http://www.conformance.co.uk/adirectives/doku.php?id=rtte
And that final page confirms that cables and wiring are excluded from R&TTE. If it is the case that terminal equipment is excluded from the EMC directive, and cables and wiring are excluded from R&TTE, it is hard to see how it will have much effect on broadband provision?
I'm not a lawyer, I may be misinterpreting. But RFI and REIN must be problems for DSL all over Europe and despite what many of us may think of EU legislators, it seems unlikely to me that they would concoct a directive that massively impacted the business of Europe wide telecoms operators, like BT.
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I've been REIN faulting for a number of years now, and the way I was told and still appears to be the case, is that we have no powers to remove offending items from EU's premises or 3rd party premises.
It comes down to the fact that there are licensed users of radio equipment who operate under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts 1904 onward, and unlicensed users of the spectrum for ADSL WiFi etc who take what they get. This doesn't preclude some voluntary cooperation (or the odd spot of illegal coercion !)
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The most frustrating part of this ongoing saga is that it could all be sorted in no time at all. The reason it isn't is the elusive R.E.I.N team absolutely refuse to give the information they gained to the company whose cameras are causing the interference. At the time of testing BTOR informed the then present landlord of the establishment where the problems lay and his responding words were. "I do not give a sh*t about peoples broadband, my cameras are more important". I wrote to the Chief Exec of the company explaining the situation and he immediately dispatched the Area Manager to sort this out, however a new landlord had been installed and BTOR refused to supply the information. It took me a freedom of information request through my ISP to gain the information however it excluded which cameras were affected and the Brewery simply walked away leaving 17 properties who all pay line rental thus pay the R.E.I.N. team with broadband that is unfit for purpose. The people who live directly opposite the establishment have had no broadband for 4 years. How ridiculous is it that this should still be ongoing? I have asked for another R.E.I.N test on many many occasions only to be told BTOR refuse to do another test. All it would take is them to show up on a certain day with the Area Manager present and say That one there and That one there. Job done, everyone happy.
This is why I am this juncture. Looking at the legal ramifications as a last resort to try and get this solved.
Sorry it sounds like a rant and it is not directed at anyone but BTOR and the incompetent jobsworths they employ.
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Tell you what, why not get back in touch with them explaining you're happy to pay the hundreds of pounds, to foot the bill for the PTO REIN engineers to attend site ?? I don't think you are grasping the fact that BTOR ARE NOT responsible for 3rd party equipment that is giving off HF noise. It is a gratis service we offer as a goodwill gesture.
We've been to site, we've found the offending items, your ISP will have been told all the relevant information via the subsequent REIN report. it is up to your ISP to then enter into negotiation with the 3rd party ..... NOT OR.
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Latest Update.
Getting back to the subject you will see on my first post I am getting lots of REIN problems, after the first OR technician came he passed it on to the REIN engineer who had sent letters out to some properties so my ISP told me, I have been getting updates from my ISP but nothing very good and this last Monday told my the case was closed by BT .
This morning I have the very knowledgeable nice REIN engineer come to my house, I told him what my ISP told me the case was closed, it's not closed :o.
He did some test and confirmed I had lots of noise coming down my line also told me about some suspect home security camera's on two of my neighbors homes.
He told me he will keep coming back to this case when he can to get to the bottom of it.
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Latest Update.
Getting back to the subject you will see on my first post I am getting lots of REIN problems, after the first OR technician came he passed it on to the REIN engineer who had sent letters out to some properties so my ISP told me, I have been getting updates from my ISP but nothing very good and this last Monday told my the case was closed by BT .
This morning I have the very knowledgeable nice REIN engineer come to my house, I told him what my ISP told me the case was closed, it's not closed :o.
He did some test and confirmed I had lots of noise coming down my line also told me about some suspect home security camera's on two of my neighbors homes.
He told me he will keep coming back to this case when he can to get to the bottom of it.
tickmike. A bit of info for you.
The new Radio Equipment Directive (RED)(2014/53/EU)
has been published to bring it into line with the
New Legislative Framework (NLF).
It came into force on the 13th June 2016 and immediately
replaced R+TTE Directive1999/5/EC without a transition period.
"The Directive represents a further liberalisation of the requirements
for telecom products in Europe since it excludes all wired equipment
from its scope and so fixed line equipment will now be regulated under
the LVD (Low Voltage Directive) and EMC directives in the same way as
any other general electrical apparatus."
What does this mean? Basically it means that BT's lines now fall under the scope of 2014/30/EU and are bound by law that they must adhere to. If BT cannot trace and remove the source of interference they HAVE to insulate their equipment (line) so as it is shielded from the interference and can operate as intended. PM me should you require more advice. I'm sure a certain sheep will be along shortly...
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Do BT's lines really fall under 2014/30/EU?
More definitions from that Directive:
(1) ‘equipment’ means any apparatus or fixed installation;
(2) ‘apparatus’ means any finished appliance or combination thereof made available on the market as a single functional unit, intended for the end-user and liable to generate electromagnetic disturbance, or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such disturbance;
(3) ‘fixed installation’ means a particular combination of several types of apparatus and, where applicable, other devices, which are assembled, installed and intended to be used permanently at a predefined location;
At best, I suppose they might be classed as a "fixed installation", and Article 19 then says that a lot of the Articles (including Article 6 which refers to the requirements in Annex I) in the Directive are not compulsory for fixed installations. They used twisted pair cabling, that was the good engineering practice used.
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Do BT's lines really fall under 2014/30/EU?
I too was a little unsure whether the directive covered such instances, so in order to gain clarification I contacted my MEP ( Derek Vaughan) and questioned him on the subject. Here is a direct copy of the response minus personal details.
"It seems that in principle, your reading of the legislation is correct. (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU is aligned with the New Legislative framework and it is noted on the Commissions own website that the Directive takes "the same scope" as the Directive that it replaced. That Directive (2004/108/EC) did not cover fixed lines. However, given the specific citation in 2014/53/EU this Directive does apply to fixed line terminal equipment."
To further seek clarification I have also contacted Greg Clark. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and await his response. If he and his department agree that BT's lines now do indeed fall under the remit of 2014/53/EU then we can expect OFCOM and ISP's to pressure BT to act in cases where REIN is proven. Fingers crossed!
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Have you looked at the Directive itself, specifically what it says about fixed installations (Article 19)? It says most of the things in the Directive are not compulsory for fixed installations.
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A "Certain sheep" is here ;) ..... and has had no information whatsoever filtered down to him regarding any changes in REIN faulting/detection.
The one thing 'we' do really well, is keep our people informed of regulatory issues, therefore I am not going to get excited about whatever this latest offering is, just yet. :)
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Have you looked at the Directive itself, specifically what it says about fixed installations (Article 19)? It says most of the things in the Directive are not compulsory for fixed installations.
I have read it several times over and this is why I seek clarification. If the directive itself does not cover fixed installations then there is absolutely no legislation whatsoever that does, that in itself would be dangerous and not what the directives intended in their scope. Remember this was written before the new RED directive was passed into law. Also the directives set the bare minimum legal requirement, member states can add their own additional standards but cannot dilute or remove any part or whole from the directive itself. The RED directive was specifically designed to place telecommunications equipment into the control of the EMC 2014/30/EU in order to remove ambiguity and set clear standards that operators must follow.
Let's hope the powers in Whitehall agree without delay and do away with BT excuses of not being able to act on third party equipment.
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I think the Directive is primarily intended for electrical devices you can buy in shops that must have that CE mark on them. I'm not sure it was really intended to apply to Openreach's telephone cabling.
Article 19
Fixed installations
1. Apparatus which has been made available on the market and which may be incorporated into a fixed installation shall be subject to all relevant provisions for apparatus set out in this Directive.
However, the requirements of Articles 6 to 12 and Articles 14 to 18 shall not be compulsory in the case of apparatus which is intended for incorporation into a particular fixed installation and is otherwise not made available on the market.
2. Where there are indications of non-compliance of the fixed installation, in particular, where there are complaints about disturbances being generated by the installation, the competent authorities of the Member State concerned may request evidence of compliance of the fixed installation, and, when appropriate, initiate an evaluation.
Where non-compliance is established, the competent authorities shall impose appropriate measures to bring the fixed installation into compliance with the essential requirements set out in Annex I.
I suppose the fixed installation this would refer to would be the security cameras, not BT's cables. I don't think it would require BT to shield their cables or anything like that, but it might enable something to be done about the source of the interference.
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Wouldn't it be more likely that if BT lines were covered, wouldn't it be more to do with policing radiation from the lines?
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Wouldn't it be more likely that if BT lines were covered, wouldn't it be more to do with policing radiation from the lines?
Indeed, that is a good point.
Consider this:
All xDSL circuits have two transceivers, one at each end of the circuit, linked together with a metallic pathway. That metallic pathway must be viewed as a radio frequency transmission line. xDSL transceivers are not licensed to radiate RF signals into free space, i.e. act as RF broadcast transmitters.
The typical logic used for "arguing the case" when there is interference to an xDSL circuit is fundamentally wrong. The provision of an xDSL based broadband service uses a technology that has to be accepted as prone to interference and no diktats, directives, humbug or legislation can change the fundamental physical laws of the Universe.
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Not directly related to REIN, as such, but my findings may shed some light on what's going on with unlawful RF emitters.
We've just completed building a new low energy house, which happens to be down at the bottom of a valley, so is a bit of a radio blackspot. This means that any interference at all tends to be noticeable, on FM and AM radios. What we did find out, very early on, was that the majority of LED lighting power supplies were simply appalling at emitting broad band RFI. All the ones we purchased were CE marked, meaning they should have been tested for RF emissions (I used to be Head of Type Approval for all UK Maritime Radio, Radar and Navigation Equipment, and was a Notified Body under the EMC and Low Voltage Directive, with test labs etc).
I have a software defined radio (a cheap Chinese unit) that goes from 100KHz to 1.7GHz and with some open source software and a decent sniffer antenna it makes tracking RFI sources easy. What that showed me was that all of the LED power supplies we'd bought, from UK lighting suppliers, were falsely CE marked. All were made in China, and when I opened a few up to look inside found that none had even any basic EMI suppression or screening.
Places like Ebay and Amazon are awash with even worse bits of kit like this. In essence, the majority of devices with a switched mode power supply that I looked at, that came from the Far East, were illegal in terms of EMC compliance.
No one seems to be prepared to do anything about this, and TBH, the only reason I got interested in trying to sort it out was because of our poor radio reception and the interference whenever a light was turned on. My fix was to find some properly designed and manufactured power supplies, that did genuinely comply with the EMC Directive and which therefore didn't emit loads of broadband interference.
I still have the software defined radio, and can say that it's a very useful tool, when used with a simple spectrum analyser programme, for tracking down sources of interference. If people suspect REIN then it might be worth looking at some DIY testing with something relatively cheap like this in order to track down the source.
I very strongly suspect that it's a problem that is going to get a great deal worse as the number of cheap, non-compliant and falsely marked electronic devices increase. I spoke to Trading Standards and to the suppliers of the illegally marked items, but frankly had very little joy. One well-known DIY supplier did remove the offending LED lights from their range, and were honest enough to tell me that they relied on their supply chain to check what they were stocking, and that if something had a CE label on then they assumed that it was compliant with the EMC and LV Directives. As an aside, I can add that there are a lot of bits of kit that are CE marked and are electrically dangerous, as they don't comply with the LV Directive either.
I'm not sure if this helps, or not, but the figures quoted earlier for the percentage of faults that were found to be genuine REIN does not surprise me at all, neither do the items of equipment mentioned. It's a safe bet that anything unbranded with a switched mode power supply in it is going to be probable source of high amplitude RFI, and no one seems to really care about it too much.
If there's anything I can help with on the RFI/EMC side, or the sort of kit that's around to do rough and ready checks of the spectrum around lines, then I'm happy to help. The problem is getting the problem fixed! As mentioned earlier, no one has any real powers to confiscate illegally marked bits of electrical equipment that are radiating a lot of RFI, it seems.
Jeremy
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In essence, the majority of devices with a switched mode power supply that I looked at, that came from the Far East, were illegal in terms of EMC compliance.
It is coming up to that time of year again when we install are modern crimbo trees with fancy led lights and switched mode power supply and fancy electronics to change the phaze & colour of these led bulbs and which impacts our VDSL signal in the home this effected the FEC's it just went crazy
Lets hope the Billion 8800NL copes better this Christmas with this offending Xmas tree as the HG612 & BB2 hated it
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Not directly related to REIN, as such, but my findings may shed some light on what's going on with unlawful RF emitters....<much deleted, but read!>
Fascinating insight, Jeremy, welcome to the debate. :)
I had always assumed that the radiating equipment was legal, if inconvenient, but perhaps not always so.
Regarding CE marking vs reality, I can't help wondering if there might be a comparison with EU diesel emissions standards vs reality? But that is a whole different Pandora's box that may be better left unopened. :blush: :D
Back on topic, somewhere buried on Kitz forums I documented some massive RF interference that I traced with near certainty to a local house that had suffered flooding, and had a flood abatement pump installed. These pumps seem to be remotely controlled by modulated (analogue) RF signals over mains, with obviously detrimental results. Out of sympathy to the victim of the flood I decided not to complain but still, slightly astonishing that such a device would be legal. >:(
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I'll admit to being astounded by the level of fraud going on when it comes to CE safety marking. Until I started looking at LED power supplies, I had no idea that flagrant disregard for EMC (and LV safety) standards was so widespread.
The problem seems to be just cost-cutting by the far-eastern manufacturers. None of the switched mode LED power supplies that I looked at had any RF shielding and none had any form of supply filtering. They typically operated at a few hundred kHz and all of the ones I looked at sent pulses at the switching frequency directly to the LEDs, down unscreened wires.
There's long been a rumour going around that the letters "CE" on any Chinese made electrical equipment really means "China Export" as far as the manufacturers are concerned, and that many unscrupulous suppliers deliberately make this marking look near-identical to the EU approval mark. An added problem is that approval is delegated, so when a product arrives in an EU state with a CE mark, there is an automatic assumption that the manufacturer has conducted the appropriate testing and certification. Sadly, this is never checked, so fraudulently marked products can easily make their way into our homes.
The level of interference generated by a reasonably powerful switched mode power supply, with no shielding or filtering is easily powerful enough to cause interference to a wide range of equipment, and sadly copper phone wires make pretty good antennas, so are almost certain to pickup interference of this level.
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It may also be worth noting that in my experience, not all 'noise' heard using the handheld-radio detecting method is actually service affecting noise.
Only in the last month myself and another engineer found a PSU (for a BT Business system as it goes ::) ), that was so 'Noisy', it could be heard on the van radio for a distance of two terraced blocks either side of it. However, it had no effect on the actual DSL spectrum.
We still haven't found the true source as yet.
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The Radio detection of two foreign radio stations 5990 Khz and 7330 Khz is definitely service effecting noise as it causes lower SNRM in the evenings ;)
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It may also be worth noting that in my experience, not all 'noise' heard using the handheld-radio detecting method is actually service affecting noise.
That's interesting because one of the OR guys who was out on a broadband call with us did a scan with a little portable radio, picked up quite a loud noise from our PVR but he didn't think it significant. Said something along the lines of we could move it further from the router if we were worried. Subsequently my tests showed that neither error rate nor noise margin are affected by switching that equipment on or off.
Do you have a tester that can pick the noise up from the line, so you can match it's signature to the frequency and pattern heard on the radio?
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That's interesting because one of the OR guys who was out on a broadband call with us did a scan with a little portable radio, picked up quite a loud noise from our PVR but he didn't think it significant. Said something along the lines of we could move it further from the router if we were worried. Subsequently my tests showed that neither error rate nor noise margin are affected by switching that equipment on or off.
Do you have a tester that can pick the noise up from the line, so you can match it's signature to the frequency and pattern heard on the radio?
Oh how I wish, sir !!!! ::) ;) ;D
The Precision Test Officers (PTO's) have such devices offered to them, but us lesser mortals have to make do with our experience and guile. :)
The kit that they have will capture the footprint of the 'noise' as shown on their Spectrum Analyser, (Forget the radio - that is purely to aid with faulting only if REIN patterns have been confirmed on the SA).
They then attach their Directional Antennae and sweep around in arc's until the same trace appears on their 'Footprint screen'.
I only request a PTO in perhaps 5% of cases, if that !!! I can only assume other REIN engineers across the country are similar ...... as such, I'm guessing there isn't a business case to supply us with the necessary expensive equipment the PTO's have ???
No doubt there's a few folk on here that could probably knock up something very similar from a Cornflakes packet, a coat-hanger and an old crystal radio set ?? ;) ;D
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As an aside ........... I've found (often enough) that when driving near premises that have solar-panels installed, the radio will scream at 612Khz MW, but they have no effect on the DSL bit-loading at all.
I know from embarrassing personal experience, after I was telling the occupant of one house (in a smug way), how his solar-panels make our radio's scream at us, and that it's naughty for broadband signals. I looked a right dick when it was proved otherwise. :blush: ::)
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That's interesting, presumably it's the invertors making the noise and maybe propagating it onto power cables. I wonder if that's what our man picked up with his van, miles from our house and phone cables but near to two small wind turbines. Was it a sort of harsh 50Hz buzzing?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
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That's interesting, presumably it's the invertors making the noise and maybe propagating it onto power cables. I wonder if that's what our man picked up with his van, miles from our house and phone cables but near to two small wind turbines. Was it a sort of harsh 50Hz buzzing?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Indeed. I've just had a quick look for a sound-byte that used to be available on our internal web-pages, but can't seem to locate it ??
If you've driven under the large overhead electricity transmission cables with your radio playing, which I'm sure you have ;), then the buzzing noise that produces is very similar.
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No doubt there's a few folk on here that could probably knock up something very similar from a Cornflakes packet, a coat-hanger and an old crystal radio set ?? ;) ;D
That's it - Cornflakes! All these years I have been using Rice Krispies and could not get rid of the snap, cr.............
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Some 4 years ago I had a terrible time on ADSL2+ with REIN that caused immediate resyncs and loss of d/l speed. Eventually traced it to a neighbours faulty inverter PSU within their monitor. "Oh yes it keeps turning off out after an hour or so and have to leave it for half an hour before switching it on again...." :-X
Anyway, here are some recordings I made from a portable Roberts radio around 612kHz wandering around outside if that helps.
REIN Quiet (https://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/REIN-quiet.mp3)
REIN Active (http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/REIN-active.mp3)
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tbailey2: I have sometimes similar REIN.
http://www.filedropper.com/buzzing
It sounds as hum noise.
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Time for a slight reallity check perhaps, as this thread seems to be switching between RFI and REIN?
They are not the same thing.
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REIN can be cured if the source is found and can be replaced to stop it effecting the ADSL & VDSl frequency spectrum, RFI cannot be cured as it is most likely a Radio Transmitter which is effecting certain frequency's in the ADSL & VDSL spectrum yet they both interfere with broadband the same way.
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My own understanding is as follow, happy to stand corrected....
RFI is interference that affects radio frequencies. It is not necessarily caused by radio transmitters, it often radiates from (for example) badly designed or faulty switch mode power supplies, among other culprits. Radio transmitters operating within legal frequency and power bands emit RF energy, but that is intentional, it is not RFI.
REIN, by its acronym, is impulse noise, such as may emit from the spark generated by the brushes of an electric motor.
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Shine comes from an electrical arc causes RF and a radio transmission is also RF and Rein is also RF so all of them should come under Radio Frequency Interference as it covers the whole AM and SW band and further
T/Storm lighting also causes RF splatter which you can here on 612KHZ
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Indeed, REIN may cause interference at radio frequencies, hence it qualifies as RFI.
My old (now deceased) vacuum cleaner used to cause flashes to appear on my TV. I'd say that was RFI from an impulsive (REIN) source.
But suppose I were to fire up an illegal 'pirate' radio station, that interfered with peoples' broadband. Surely that would be RFI but not REIN? Similarly I'd argue that a 'bad' PSU would emit RFI but, as the source is from a badly designed oscillator, there is no 'impulse, so it should not be called REIN. :-\
Apols for the indulgence in pedantic detail, it is simply a topic that I've begun to think about recently through no better reason than boredom, and that the weather's a bit too miserable to go out much this time of year. :)
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I'm curious what is the way of REIN getting to the router. Mains or rather induction on phone cables?
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Rein/RFI does not get inside the modem from the mains socket all or most of the interference is being picked up from DSL cables or internal wiring and even on the D-SIDE and all the interference is then seen by your modem as noise.
For example those mains Powerline adapters don't effect the mains it's the RFI output produced on the mains cable that bombards us with this RF noise and that gets into our broadband cables and as you know ends up at the modem.
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I agree with sevenyearmuddle - RFI or REIN is the source mechanism of the interference - it can travel by induction, conduction or radiation, quite possibly by more than one at a time.
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Is power supply one of the things which move REIN to the router?
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Is power supply one of the things which move REIN to the router?
Yes but only if the PSU has become faulty there should be RF suppression components built into the circuitry but if that fails then RF noise bleeds over to other devices.