Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: Chunkers on February 12, 2016, 09:06:10 AM
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I have a 'difficult' phone line, with help from some cool people on these forums I was recently able to confirm that my phone line is poor quality and containing a lot of non-copper (aluminium?). Although vDSL is now available in my area and on my exchange I decided not to upgrade due to the these issues as the predicted rates are actually lower than my ADSL 2+ connection.
I use a Billion 7800N as a modem bridged to an Asus AC68U router for my ADSL 2+ but I have had some recent issues suggesting my Billion 7800N is maybe showing signs of age and I want to replace it with a newer, better performing modem. I am currently using my 'backup' a TP-Link TD-W8980, with the latest firmware the problems I previously encountered seem to have been resolved and it is doing OK (for my line) :
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe352%2FJolltax%2FCrap%2FTD-W8980_zpsh0br6wkh.jpg&hash=5f090b9536e4c64555524610c2f898b2604e0a55)
So I am looking for a bridge modem :
- Broadcom chipset (latest/best is the BCM63168 (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Broadband-Carrier-Access/xDSL-CPE-Solutions/BCM63168)?)
- Act as bridge to my AC68U
- Don't need any fancy features / wireless / switch just a really good bridge/modem
- Capability to upgrade to vDSL in the future if I move or my line improves
I don't mind paying for the best modem and connection performance so budget is flexible, no problem buying a router and disabling the wireless etc if thats what it takes. I get the impression from these forums that the ZyXEL VMG8324-B10A (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/zyxel_VMG8324-B10A_review.htm) is favoured. It looks from the reviews that this would marginally outperform the Huawei HG612 3b in my situation - does this sound right?
EDIT : I just noticed the Netgear D7000 (http://www.netgear.co.uk/home/products/networking/dsl-modems-routers/D7000.aspx) and the Billion 8800NL (http://www.billion.uk.com/product/vdsl/8800NL.htm) also feature the same chipset as the Zyxel - is there much to choose between them as a bridge modem?
There seems to be a relatively small number of modems / routers using this chipset now as I guess most people are switching to FTTC based solutions.
Are there any other better or more suitable options people can suggest?
Regards
Chunks :cool:
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Hi
If it is Broadcom based and new (i.e. not had chance to degrade with use over the months and years), then they all tend to be very similar in performance. That's not to say you may find one that works better on your line than another, but that same one may be worse for someone else. So your only option is try one and see it how it fairs.
The ZyXEL is fairly unique as it has an extra noise filter, now this is essentially a long piece of wire wrapped around in a coil, so on a long line it might reduce your sync speed, as you've made that long line a little longer, but then it may be more stable and sync higher if the noise on your line is the type it tackles. I think the fact no expense is spared on the ZyXEL to include that filter (most do not), then I assume they've built it to a slightly better quality overall, and most seem to find it does very well.
I would avoid the Netgear D7000, internally the construction is stripped to the bone and done to a budget a lot lower than the price it sells at, mainly because you are paying for the Wi-Fi spec and bragging rights, which you wouldn't be using.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Phil
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i use the 8800nl as a bridge its small and cheap, the problem is it's now discontinued
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Thanks for the replies, I have also read mixed reviews for the D7000 so I will probably avoid it. It seems surprisingly hard to find a BCM63168 based router and I spotted a ZyXEL VMG8324-B10A advertised as 'new' for £45 on ebay so I got itchy fingers and snapped it up :)
It seems like both the ZyXEL VMG8324-B10A and the 8800NL are discontinued although the 8800NL seems to be available on Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Billion-8800NL-Gigabit-Wireless-Router/dp/B00K6D2ESM) quite cheaply. Zyxel's new line-up don't seem to get very favourable reviews tbh
This would appear to leave people who want a BCM63168 very short of options.
I like the fact that there are a lot of peeps on here using the ZyXEL and there appears to be plenty of firm-wares to choose from so I will give it a go.
Still interested in whether there are better options though......
Thanks for the help!
Chunks
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i use the 8800nl as a bridge its small and cheap, the problem is it's now discontinued
The Billion BiPAC 8800NL isn't discontinued. It's still available.
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Weaver gets good results from his D-Link modems, but I don't know if they're Broadcom chipset. Seem to work well on a long line though.
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It seems surprisingly hard to find a BCM63168 based router and I spotted a ZyXEL VMG8324-B10A advertised as 'new' for £45 on ebay so I got itchy fingers and snapped it up :)
Until I read this, I was going to suggest just getting a cheap ADSL2+ modem which tends to work well on long/aluminium lines such as the BT 2 Wire..
However, all VDSL modems on sale in the UK should support ADSL2+ as well - its part of Openreach's minimum spec for them to to connected to their network - and then by the time you decide to move to a fibre connection, newer chipsets and models will have been released (perhaps suporting G.Fast as well)
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Although all VDSL2 modems that I can think of do also support ADSL2+, the entire ADSL2+ section of BT SIN 498 is marked as optional (and also, there seems to have been a bit too much copy and paste used for the ADSL2+ section of SIN 498, since it refers to upstream retransmission, which is not part of G.998.4 for ADSL2+).
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Until I read this, I was going to suggest just getting a cheap ADSL2+ modem which tends to work well on long/aluminium lines such as the BT 2 Wire..
No worries, I jumped the gun but I'm pretty sure I can dispose of it on ebay again if I need to at a small loss or donate it to a family member.
I am away on business atm and ultimately I just want something there when I get home, if it doesn't work out i will be going back to the TP-Link and trying something else!
Chunks
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As it happens I am now facing a similar situation myself.
I also run my modems in bridge mode with PPP/Firewall on a separate router.
The Billion 7800N Bipac that I have been using for the last couple of years just
failed, refusing to sync to the exchange so I am temporarily using a spare TP-Link TD-W8970
I also have a rural, long, slow, troublesome noisy line and the Billion has been By Far the best modem I have tested on it.
So I also would prefer another good Broadcom chipset for its great ADSL1 performance
- and sadly that was not a typo. :-(
with the possibility to also work with FTTC - if we ever get a cabinet installed.
I too have noted that the zyxel has had a good reception here on Kitz.
And would be interested to give it a try.
One feature that I would not like to lose would be the Billions GUI inteface which allows to adjust the SNR
a little which I have used on occasion to 'bump up' sync speed just enough to get into the next speed band.
So I have two questions:
1) Can user of the newer Billion 8800 reassure me that this feature still exists?[1]
(If not i would consider ebay for a used 7800N)
2) Can users of the zyxel tell me if I can adjust SNR easily?*
Please feel free to also comment with other suggestions- all useful contributions gratefully received.
:-)
[1] see 'hidden' feature at: http://x.x.x.x/snr.cgi
*yes I know I can telnet to the command line and enact the correct incantation via the broadcom binary to poke at the chipset settings, but this does not meet the general users definition of 'user friendly' and AFAIUI is not persistent across reboot/power cycle.
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Weaver gets good results from his D-Link modems, but I don't know if they're Broadcom chipset. Seem to work well on a long line though.
The DLink DSL-320B-Z1 modems are very good on an ultra-long ADSL1 line, very aggressive and tenacious. They do not meet your spec as they don't speak VDSL2, and are not Broadcom devices (MediaTek SoC I think). My line is 4.55 miles, 65 dB d/s attn. Strongly recommended. Cheap (~£20).
How to obtain one: AA shop - See below. Must only be used in bridge modem mode, never in router mode, as they are supposed to be diabolical routers, but no prob as a persistent config option will make this go away.
Buy them from the AAISP shop (available to non-AA users):
http://aa.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html
preconfigured in modem-only mode, so nothing to do.
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Weaver gets good results from his D-Link modems, but I don't know if they're Broadcom chipset. Seem to work well on a long line though.
The DLink DSL-320B-Z1 modems are very good on an ultra-long ADSL1 line, very aggressive and tenacious. They do not meet your spec as they don't speak VDSL2, and are not Broadcom devices (MediaTek SoC I think). My line is 4.55 miles, 65 dB d/s attn. Strongly recommended. Cheap (~£20).
How to obtain one: AA shop - See below. Must only be used in bridge modem mode, never in router mode, as they are supposed to be diabolical routers, but no prob as a persistent config option will make this go away.
Buy them from the AAISP shop (available to non-AA users):
http://aa.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html
preconfigured in modem-only mode, so nothing to do.
At this price it might make a good backup to my backup, I might hover on evil-bay and look for one, thanks for the post!
Chunks
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Don't let the low price fool you, they're the best performers I've ever tried on my 65 dB line. And the AA shop does the setup for you (essential).
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Found this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/D-Link-DSL-320B-ADSL2-Ethernet-Modem-/281826812410?hash=item419e2fe1fa:g:-4wAAOSw14xWHNso) :
Is this the same model (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/D-Link-DSL-321B-ADSL2-Modem-Rev-Z1-/281932520330?hash=item41a47cdb8a:g:0ssAAOSwZVhWS2GF)?
love a bargain .... can't help myself
Chunks
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The "321" listing was I thought a typo but although the pictures are very very bad, I think I can make out 321 in one of them. So stay away from the 321, who knows what it is. Mind you, what's there to lose?
Given the fact it won't work properly until it's been configured correctly, I would stick with the AA shop, saves you time and grief.
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There are two different D-Link products called DSL-320B, I believe the good one is the curvy looking one that looks like it should stand upright.
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I snapped one up as a backup (completely unnecessary) but seemed like a bargain :)
Thanks for the advice!
Chunks
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But remember, don't use it until you've configured it into modem-only bridge mode.
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But remember, don't use it until you've configured it into modem-only bridge mode.
I will, it'll be interesting to see how it copes with my line compared to the Zyxel, I think I have a pretty good spread of modem chipsets now Trend, Infineon, Broadcom, Mediatek (types not models obviously)!
I probably need to put some stuff on ebay ...................... lol
Chunks
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Please keep us informed, I'd love to hear how the DLinks stand up in comparison with other modems.
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@weaver
Well done sir!
Thank you for alerting us to this interesting line of investigation. ;D
I note that the earlier version of the DLink DSL-320B (with the squarer case) sold as 'Revision A1' or 'Revision D' did indeed have the Broadcom chipset.
official spec (http://official spec)
http://www.dlink.com/-/media/Consumer_Products/DSL/DSL%20320B/Datasheet/DSL_320B_Datasheet_EN_UK.pdf
D-Link says it supports telnet,ssh and SNMP !!!
-Telnet/SSH access for configuration
-SNMP v.1 and v.2c w/ MIB-I and MIB-II
- Local access via console (optional)
To me decent monitoring capabilities is almost a 'must have' feature.
That in itself was almost enough to provoke me to order a used one off of ebay, just to try it out.
But then I was completely put off by this post who describes the 'bridge mode' as really being a disastrously unuseable 'half bridge mode' using subnetting, DHCP and arp. <GAK> :-X
"D-Link DSL-320B: A truly awful modem"
http://phil.lavin.me.uk/2012/01/d-link-dsl-320b-a-truly-awful-modem/
Given the date and the picture of the squarer case I deduce he was using the first A1 model.
I was only considering the later D model because there is a vuln and updated image for it.
https://www.exploit-db.com/exploits/25251/
"Firmware fixes security vulnerabilities." Date: 30.4.2013
http://www.dlink.com/ba/hr/support/product/dsl-321b-adsl-2-ethernet-modem?revision=deu_revd#downloads
Unfortunately I think this is what the spec means by:
- Ethernet to ADSL Self-Learning Transparent Bridging
:( :( :(
Can anyone here chime in with any real life usage experience?
@aesmith I was chatting in another thread about SNMP.
Do you have any experience to share using Network Monitoring with DLink ?
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I haven't used SNMP with D-Link for many years, not since the main D-Link product that we used was a 12 port 10BaseT hub. However when I looked at these modems I concluded that they don't support SNMP. The data sheet may say so, but there's no reference in the manual. And the manual screenshots don't show SNMP on the "Advanced" page which is where SNMP settings seem to be configured other D-Link products.
I'm afraid I now think that SNMP support is being dropped or reduced in consumer equipment. Linksys used to have good support, but the feature's been removed from more recent products.
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Chunks :cool:
Literally, like? Hahaha! :P :P :lol: :lol:
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Chunks :cool:
Literally, like? Hahaha! :P :P :lol: :lol:
It's just a handle but I am fairly chunky :giggle:
Thank you for alerting us to this interesting line of investigation. ;D
Well, I am happy to do some fiddling and get some relative performance numbers and report back but don't expect a full blown analysis! I have also taken the precaution of booking a Telecomms Engineer to come and give my house wiring a once over as I have been having some internal wiring issues (currently plumbed into the engineers socket on the main BT inlet). I have done some testing of my own and the extension wiring is a bit nasty.
I won't start any of this until next week as I am currently abroad on business and my first few days back I mainly drink :drink:.
Once I sober up I'll do some comparisons.
Cheers big ears!
Chunks
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@G.DMT
See earlier thread
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16583.msg306491.html#msg306491
I wasn't aware of a hardware Rev A1. I know of the D1, the square flat one (see pics in thread). It seems that the D1 and A1 are history, can't be sure. I've bought seven Z1 devices in the last year or so, and all the units that have arrived are the sit-up-and-beg h/w rev Z1 devices. How do we know what's what? I am going by the model number and serial no sticker on the underside that has hw rev Z1 on all the latest units.
The D1 was a completely different device according to that earlier thread. Loonylion had a D1 and said it was shite. Andrews and Arnold amongst others have said repeatedly that the devices are garbage if in router mode, although I don't know why.
As modems though, they "just work". You plug them in and they do the right thing. They even support RFC 4638 for full size MTU/MRU 1500+8, if you are not using 20CN and you are using a compatible router, and have a straightforward Ethernet link between modem and router, devoid of weirdness or malice.
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@weaver Thanks for posting that link. I had somehow missed that thread.
sorry - am obviously turning up late to the discussion!
I did see this thread http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15504.msg293294.html#msg293294
Where you tried out the vigor 130 (lantiq) and commented that it wasn't nearly as good as your
'venerable Netgear DG834 v3'
I had the similar experience testing 2 other modems (not vigor) with the lantiq chipset and similar results- the were not as good as my venerable Netgear DG834 v3.
Whilst I don't have anything like the line length (and thus attenuation) to deal with that you do at > 4.3 km
this line has suffered a great deal of fluctuation/instability.
Hence my interest in your posts.
The Billion 7800 was the best modem I found so far for my line.
Noticeably better than 3 other equivalent chipset Broadcom based competitors.
One the one hand I might _hope_ that buying the Billions replacement might live up to the standards set by its exceptional predecessor, I do have my doubts about that.
The B7800N was renowned for the exceptional quality of its analogue circuitry.
As you will probably know, that is the bit that differentiated it from its competitors (which employ the same chipsets (and the same Broadcam supplied binary chipset drivers).
It originally cost £120 new :'( (with delivery) ... the replacement costs only about half that so I won't hold out unrealistic expectations.
On the other hand the I see that the ZyXEL has been specifically mentioned as having extra care lavished on the implementation of the analogue circuitry - hence my interest.
Yes - I could buy them both, and the possibility of a third contender is intriguing, but that would be a substantial outlay! :(
So better to ask here. ;) ... and besides that also means that others can potentially share in any learning.
I will await any and all feedback with interest.
:)
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Hi
The Billion 7800 was a bit of a dogs dinner internally, very poor construction. See the full catalog of build issues here http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showpost.php?s=ba08767d38d39e30c2e0a236501ec660&p=15389638&postcount=14
It had corroding glue used on the board and heat-sinks half hanging off chips, it certainly didn't live up to its premium pricing. I think the fact it worked as well as it did was just down to luck, or perhaps because the board was half empty it placed the analogue section further away from electrically noisy components on the board.
Regards
Phil
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The Billion 7800 was a bit of a dogs dinner internally, very poor construction.
The Billion 7800 was the best modem I found so far for my line.
I have to agree with both of these comments, for me the modem on my Billion has so far been the best for stability (equaling the performance of my old Speedtouch v6 which was also great). However I have also experienced the horrible build quality had 2 replacements over the time I have owned it (since 2012 I think?) and mine suffered from the corroding glue/solder issue a couple of years back and died.
This led to me recently ordering the Zyxel VMG8324 and the D-Link 320B as replacements now my 3rd 7800N is showing signs of imminent death.
My infineon TP-LInk router is much improved since I bought it, I am guessing because of firmware improvements. I also had an Asus AC55U (Trend) which is totally unusable on my line and highly unstable. When I speak to my neighbours many of them terrible problems with their stock ISP-supplied gear, they all start to glaze over when I start talking about noise, aluminium, SNR, modems and chipsets though so I don't bother, I just smile and look concerned. I guess in reality your average punter woudn't even know how to log into their router, let alone upgrade the firmware or look at the stats .....
My secret hope is that the Zyxel will prove to have the performance of the Billion but with much improved build quality.
If they weren't so badly made I think the Billion 7800N would be a great second hand buy as a modem, sadly I wouldn't recommend one.
Chunks