Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: EVIL-SCOTSMAN on October 06, 2006, 12:21:38 AM
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Hi, this is my first post, so be gentle with me :)
anyway, back to the question at hand.
I have just migrated to BT adslmax, and I was wondering if my stats are good, particulary the SNR margin.
I have been put on interleaving, and I get roughly 500 FEC errors daily ( most are when the pc is turned off but the router is still connected ), I have asked to have interleaving turned off due to the 30-40ms ping time increase in gameing.
Also my snr margin is normally 10.5 highest to 9 lowest, I used DMT tool to boost it to 12 after reading kitz website as he says 12 is a better number to have regarding the SNR margin.
Now 2 questions.
1, is my SNR margin ok at 12, or even at the old figure of 9 lowest and 10.5 highest, and in general are my stats ok ?
2, was i wise in asking to get interleaving turned off, as I was always on fast mode for the last 4 years without any problem, even tho I was at 2mb, but with interleaving on for 4 days, I had 1500 FEC errors ( again, most are caused when the pc is off but router is still on) and no CRC and no HEC errors, so is it wise for me to have interleaving turned off ? as the only reason I want it turned off is due to increased latency which is obvious for me when playing BF2.
My BRAS is set at 7000kbps and i am on day 7 of my training period.
If there is anything out of the ordinary with my stats could someone point them out to me, as although I am clued up with pc's I havent really worried about router/connection stats until I migrated, and I want to make syure i am getting the best out of the line that I possibly can.
Cheers.
E.S.
Uptime: 0 days, 0:06:45
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 8,096
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [KB/KB]: 32.00 / 170.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.5 / 18.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.0 / 12.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
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Hi and welcome to the forums. :)
Your attenuation of 18dB is decent. :)
An SNR Margin of 9dB is fine on MAX as long as it is stablish and doesn't drop too low.
9 - 10.5 is perfectly ok. - The 12dB on my site refers to traditional (2Mb) adsl.
Once your SNR Margin starts to drop below 10dB on a traditional fixed rate line then you are likely to have problems.
DSL Max works slightly differently and is more tolerant at working at lower SNR Margins and
When you say you changed your SNR.. I'm assuming you changed your "Target SNR", this isn't the same as your SNR Margin.
You have a sync rate that doesn't occur very often and this may be as a result of you changing your target SNR when you perhaps didn't need to.
(Increasing your Target SNR will usually result in a drop in sync speed, but stabilising your line).
Theres something odd about the sync rate of 8,096 whereby it apparently provides the most increased latency of all the sync profiles.
It has the maximum error correction and interleave depth, and adds quite a large overhead for the error correction. (Interleave and error correction work alongside each other on BT Max.).
Some users have reported that FEC errors have increased when interleaving is turned on.
I must admit Ive never used the DMT tool since my router doesn't support it, and therefore iirc Ive not written anything about it.
I think perhaps soms/roseway/mr_chris who have netgears will be able to advise you more about it.
But if I were you, based on those stats, Id undo what you did with the DMT tool, and let your line find its own level again. Since you dont have any CRC or HERC errors you may well be fine.
See how it performs a few days by itself then apply to have interleaving removed.
You dont actually say which router you have but because you are talking DMT Im assuming its perhaps a netgear.
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I have the bt home hub, and yes i just found out that when i raised the target snr margin, it indeed dropped my sync speed to 7672 or something, so i will reset the hub in 2 minutes.
all that i was really worried about was the fact of my snr which is 10.5 and drops at peak time say 9 pm to about 9-9.5 then it stabalises again, it never drops below 9.
As for the 8096, i cant say, i do know that many ppl have the same sync speed as that, and it falls inbetween 6.5mb bras profile and 7150kbps bras profile, thats why i am on 7000kbps.
but as long as you think all my stats are fine, then I am happy, as I say, it was just the snr margin, but funnily enoguh, in DMT, its called target noise margin, and when I tweak it, my snr margin actually goes higher in the router stats, as it was always at 10ish but now its at 12, and when i raised it too high, it messed up my sync speed, so I think I will reset the router back to normal.
I was just curious if 1500 FEC errors in 4 days was alot ??? but BT have said that interleaving will be turned off, I had the line for 2 days with no errors and then suddenly they turned interleaving on and i started to get errors and my speed dropped, but not by too much ?
Thanks for your help.
E.S.
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Ok, i reset the router and did some other changes to the router, and now i am back to a bras profile of 6500 because i sync'd about 3 or 4 times within 5 minutes or so, so it has now dropped me back to 6500kbps, and I have 2-3 days of my training period left....
Will my profile go back upto 7000kbps if i leave the router on for 3 solid days, or will my 10 days run out before that and it will never get higher than 6500kbps ?
This is gonna pee me off if because i turned off my router a few times that it has lowered my profile to the extent that i now have no time left to get it back upto 7000kbps before my ten days are up.
so my question is, will my profile go back upto 7000kbps regardless if the ten day training period is up or will it stay at 6500kbps for ever if i dont manage to get the profile back upto 7k before the 10 days are over ?
cheers.
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Don't worry about the drop in bRAS profile. The profile is continuously reevaluated throughout your time on Max, not just in the first ten days. In general, the profile will be set at a level based on the lowest sync rate over the last three days, so if it falls as yours has it should rise again after three days of higher sync rate.
Have a look at this page http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm for more information. At the bottom of the page is a table telling you what profile speed to expect.
Eric
(PS Note to Kitz: DMT works with Speedtouch routers, not Netgear. Tweaking can be very successful at optimising the connection, but you do have to be prepared to wait several days. There's a new version of DMT which works with some Belkin routers.)
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>> DMT works with Speedtouch routers, not Netgear
ty roseway..
I sussed that last night after I went to have another look at it..
I noticed theres a new verion out which also now supposedly supports the DG834GT which is a broadcom router.. at which point I got distracted cause it was...
ooooh my routers a broadcom.. so I downloaded it and it works with the Voyager too. so thats the V2100, V2110 and V2091 it should also work with now.
But as it was late I didnt get too far....zzzzzzzz
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Phew, I am happy that it will rise again regardless of whether it is within the 10 day period or not, as I was thinking, that it would be stuck at what the bras profile is set at during the 10 days thus nothing will be able to get it past that once it was set, but if it is continuous I should go back upto 7k within a couple of days :D even if it is after my training period, that was my main concern, but i dont like the way that it happens, as if you turn off your router more than a few times, within say 5 minutes, BT's machine will think that you are having a problem and then lower the rate, as thats what happened to me, now I have to wait 3 days for the machine to chill out....
me thinks i still prefer my fixed line. none of this jiggery pockery business, you got what it said on the tin. :)
BTW, how can you reset DMT sot hat your router is back to defaults ? as I had raised the target snr margin and then set that as the default, and when i deleted DMT tool from my pc and reset the router/flashed the router my snr margin was still on the higher rate of 12 which is the raised rate of 12, as it was only on 10 before, so how can i successfully undo all of dmt tools changes ????
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BT called me about 20 minutes ago and told me that interleaving has now been turned off, so i reset the router to clear all the rrors so everything would show 0.
19 minutes later and this is what i see in my hub.
Uptime: 0 days, 0:19:04
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 8,096
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 1.76 / 10.47
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.5 / 18.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.0 / 8.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 10 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3,590
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 15
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 14
Interleaving is still turned on, and to a greater degree than it was before, as I now get HEC errors and cyclic redundancy errors also.
wtf has happened, as they surely havent turned off interleaving ???????
its 100 times worse than it ever was....
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I think perhaps soms/roseway/mr_chris who have netgears will be able to advise you more about it
Lol, I don't have a Netgear ::)
(presently using Linksys but considering move to BT DSL Max w/ Home Hub)
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**** it, i dumped bt total 8 days in to a new contract and have signed up for bt business broadband option 2, which is 29.99 and gives me unlimted downloads, and best of all, alot lot better customer support, UK tech customer support at that.
My buddy works at the biz tech support department and says it is nothing like the poor show they put on for residential BB owners.
I get activated again on the 16th, so here goes, anything to get away from that dire support tht is called BB total tech support.
stats since i posted earlier.
Uptime: 0 days, 6:17:27
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 8,096
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 31.93 / 247.30
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.5 / 18.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 8.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 94 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 48,406
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 112
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 94
Aint they lovely ? :) :(:(
I forgot to add the max 500kbit ps that I am now getting, all this occured after BT called at tea time and said interleaving is now off.
they lied and turned it on to its highest setting i think ? due to all the FEC erros, previously i would of been lucky to get just FEC errors and only 1500 over a 5 day period....
[Small edit by moderator. Please keep it clean]
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:(
Just a warning about interleaving.
Ive come across this several times recently... whereby its becoming a nightmare to get BTWholesale to remove interleaving.
BTW tell you ISP that interleaving has been removed.. but it hasnt been - and customers can see it hasnt been because its still showing as being on in their router.
This has been affecting many different ISPs and I dont think any of them have quite managed to get to the bottom of it yet.
mr_chris is also struggling with the same thing - he knows damn well that interleaving is still being applied despite BTw saying its been turned off.
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Yea, check this out.
Last night BT contacted me and said interleaving was off, it could either be the router isnt registering it or my pc is messed up.
They asked to do a remote session to my pc to check, I let them and i had telnet and DMT all open so they could see that interleaving was still on.
my stats since 6pm last night after they called me to say it has been turned off.
Uptime: 0 days, 22:28:25
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 8,096
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 110.85 / 2.17
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.5 / 18.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 8.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 365 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 165,945
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 455
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 401
crazy stats, considering everything was A ok just minutes before they supposdly turned it off.
I dont really care at this stage, as on the 16th my line should retrain when I move over to business.
I just hope they dont charge me for the remainder of my bt total contract, as i have only had total for 9 days, but i spose with distance selling laws I still have a cooling off period of 14 or 30 days ?.
If anyone knows if I will be charged the remainder of my total contract for moving/upgradeing to business, then I would reallly like to hear if anyone has the answer, but in the terms and conditions for total, it says if you are in a contract and you upgrade to any bt broadband product, you will then be re contracted for another 12 months, so i guess it will just switch over and start again from scratch but i will be under 12 month contract with bt biz bb.
if anyone has any info regarding upgradeing/changing contract i would greatfully like to hear any info they may have.
Cheers
E.S.
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well, I thought i should atleast continue the saga :)
Just lost inet connection for 30 mins
I turned router off and on thinking maybe it was that, but it wasnt, well as far as i can make out anyway.
10 ish minutes after being reconnected, my stats are like this
Uptime: 0 days, 0:11:58
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 8,096
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 6.55 / 61.95
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.5 / 18.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.0 / 11.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
so all the errors are fixed, and I am not getting FEC errors at the moment, but, but it still shows me as being on interleaved, well so telnet says anyway.
I aint touching a thing, it will stay like that til i get my leet router back from being RMA'd so i can dump the bt hub and get connected to BT biz....
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Good luck on biz :)
Keep an eye on the interleaving thing though... as I said earlier BTw are often saying that they have turned interleaving off when it hasnt been.
Give your ISP proof by showing them a screen cap of your router with it showing as being on.
Also ask your ISP to do a WOOSH test, which should also show them if interleaving is switched on.
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Cheers kitz ;)
I got a call from BT this morning from a decent bloke, he said that when the machine that does interleaving is set to auto, even tho interleaving may be off on that line, it will still show interleaving...
We had a 20 minute convo, and he was a real cool bloke, but just this second my line went awol, and i thought ah crap, but check out telnet stats.
Channel Mode : Fast
Available Bandwidth : Downstream 8128 Upstream 448
I now have interleaving off and I am syncing at full speed :) and not a bloody error in sight :)
I am now a happy chappy.
I just thought I should at least tell you about my happy ending :)
And when I hook up with BT biz next monday it will get better, as congestion will be non existant at night where I live I should think and UK tech support based in Alness.
Cheers for answering thta few questions I had earlier ;)
E.S.
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Hey thats brilliant news... glad you got there in the end. :)
Thanks for letting us know. :thumbs:
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I just wanted to clarify a statment in the post above for other readers
>> the machine that does interleaving is set to auto,
>> even tho interleaving may be off on that line, it will still show interleaving
Interleaving (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm)
Interleaving is set to "auto" by default and interleaving is then controlled by the DLM process.
It is possible to arrange to have interleaving set to permanently "on" or "off" via your ISP.
Theres 3 states
ON - permanently on
OFF - permanently off
AUTO - on or off as required.
Im on the default auto setting and my router shows
Latency Type : Fast
If interleaving is not on then your router should show FAST mode
The DMT tool shows it as ADSL Fast Path.
If your router shows Interleave depth as 1 that means no interleaving.
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Yea, I thought the dude who called me really didnt know what he was talkin about when he said it would still show interleaving to be on, even tho its turned off ?
anyway, on monday the interleaving got turned off, but later that day the bt home hub started showing some errors, I just left it and didnt really bother with it, on tuesday my RMA'd router came back to me, and I hooked that up, and its been a stable connection with no errors since tuesday morning.
So I think all of the errors and me being put on interleaving in the first place was due to a crappy bt home hub, as that is the only router out of my collection of 4 that shows errors and all on the download side, my other 2 routers dont show any errors, but they cant sync as high as 8mbit only my RMA'd router can sync at 8mbit, and that also shows no errors, so all of the problems I suspect were caused by the magic piece of kit that is called bt home hub.
I would advise ppl to stay clear of them and use a decent retail router rather than the freebie hub.
I am just waiting for my bRAS profile to go up from 7000kbps to 7150kbps now as I have been synced at 8128 since monday dinnertime, should happen today at somepoint ???
Cheers
E.S.
EDIT:
bRAS profile now hitting 7150 :) that is all my problems sorted, until i get reactivated with business then i start all over again :S
I now get roughly 800 - 850 kbytes down at off peak times and roughly anything from 300 - 650kbytes at peak times, but 800 was the magic figure that I wanted to hit, so i am uber happy, least i know my line can handle it no problem, and I also did some other tests and it says my line can sync if it was allowed to at 8900* or thereabouts, so there is a fair bit of room left in my line yet :) roll on adsl 2 :D
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Yep... one of the things that can occur with interleaving on is more FEC errors... although each line is different.
Its a well known fact that some routers ARE better than others at hanging on to your connection.. so stick with your own router.. and hide the hub in a cupboard for a spare.
>> 800 - 850 kbytes
Thats none too shabby at all :D
Brilliant :D :D 8)
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I did tests at different times of the day, check em out.
they seem to be pretty stable now :P ;D
Download Speed: 6798 kbps (849.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 313 kbps (39.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6814 kbps (851.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 374 kbps (46.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6799 kbps (849.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 374 kbps (46.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6583 kbps (822.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 374 kbps (46.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6756 kbps (844.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 374 kbps (46.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6777 kbps (847.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 372 kbps (46.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6900 kbps (862.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 324 kbps (40.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6843 kbps (855.4 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 374 kbps (46.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6870 kbps (858.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 372 kbps (46.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
Download Speed: 6846 kbps (855.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 374 kbps (46.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
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I would advise ppl to stay clear of them and use a decent retail router rather than the freebie hub.
Our Linksys is appalling when it comes to errors. I suspect the line rather than the hardware but all the same there are hundreds and then thousands of errors.
When I can finally migrate (awaiting MAC code) I will get the Home Hub and give it a go. It is nice to actually get something for free and i'll see how it goes. I can't imagine the router is solely to blame when it comes to monitoring errors and for those who don't mind a few - why bother purchasing a retail router? For arguments sake the vast majority of ADSL users have no idea of how it works and would be completely oblivious to error stats etc.
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OMG look at those speeds 8). Youre pushing the max you can get.
Obviously theres no problems at your exchange .
Well done you :)
/me is jealous