Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: deron on January 11, 2016, 10:54:48 PM
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Just out of interest, what would g.inp do to a line affected by the Satan that are homeplugs?
Would it help defeat the loss of sync due to interference?
[Moderator note: I've split this post off to create a new topic under Broadband Technology.]
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Welcome to the Kitz forum.
If the homeplugs are injecting noise into the incoming xDSL line, then I would expect G.Inp to attempt to correct the resultant errors. How successful might it be? Who knows . . . :-\
(It is my personal opinion that the best place for any make of homeplug is in with the electrical and electronics recycling.)
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Agreed. Homeplug = evil
And should be made legally prohibited from sale.
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Spewing out rfi intentionally is not cool, whether it be down the mains or over the airwaves,
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Glad to see I am not the only one with an aversion to homeplugs. Hopefully I will remain free of their noise for the foreseeable future.
Being a radio amateur anything that 'leaks' RF and causes interference is evil but that aside I have had to carry out some 'modifications' to the limited phone wiring in my house when I was experimenting transmitting around 1.8MHz which isn't all that far from the frequencies ADSL uses as I understand it. When I was first started experimenting every time I transmitted I caused the connection to drop. My cure was wrapping the cable from the modem router to the microfilter around chunky ferrite rings and replacing the microfilter at the same time. Believe it or not it cured my issues.
My point is that maybe if home plugs are causing issues or do when G.Inp is implemented some well wound ferrite rings may help or even solve the problem entirely if you must use homeplugs.
(Mods: Hope this isn't too off topic but thought it might be useful either now or later.)
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"Top Band" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/160-meter_band) (160 metres) is the frequency band 1800 - 2000 kHz which falls into the upper reaches of ADSL2+ and VDSL2.
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I didn't go quite that far as I didn't want to confuse matters :D
But yes. It was the tip about the ferrites I thought may be useful
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Never had any issues with homeplugs here.
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I'm not sure what the difference is between the good and bad ones, but the latest ones use some high frequencies too, spewed out around the power cables. I've been to a friends house and he was wondering what was causing his internet problems, on the DSL lines, pulled the home plugs problem solved!
I agree with the sentiment, powerline ethernet = evil .
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I've got three in service at the moment, one connected to the router, one providing wireless coverage and Ethernet to the desktop PC at the back of the house, one in the workshop. They're on my list to check for interference, now I've finally got live error stats I can try to eliminate local equipment. Only problem is that DSL Stats runs on the desktop over the powerline adapters, so I'll need to rig up something temporary. All that I know at the moment is that they don't change attenuation or noise margin, nor do they kick the DSL off.
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homeplugs is sort of like nicotine, its something that should be banned but because its so widely used now they are stuck leaving it be.
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homeplugs is sort of like nicotine, its something that should be banned but because its so widely used now they are stuck leaving it be.
Well yes but with say HG612_modem_stats or DSLstats running you can see the damage it does on your DSL lungs the average users out there won't even know the damage PLA's can do on their line but it's not permanent once they are removed the evil devices and then let the DLM recover the damaged line stats.
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Well yes but with say HG612_modem_stats or DSLstats running you can see the damage it does on your DSL
What would be the best parameter(s) to look at to see if they're having any effect?
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The most obvious indicator would be a lower and/or more variable SNRM when the device in question is operating. In a really bad case it might trigger a resync.
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Apologies, if I am felt to be butting in with an irrelevance, having only an ADSL2+ connection.
Are FTTx G.Inp set ups much more sensitive than steam ones like mine? I ask, because on or off, player in use or not, I do not see any perceptible change in SNRM, which has been steady between 3.3 and 3.4 dB.
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Apologies, if I am felt to be butting in with an irrelevance, having only an ADSL2+ connection.
Are FTTx G.Inp set ups much more sensitive than steam ones like mine? I ask, because on or off, player in use or not, I do not see any perceptible change in SNRM, which has been steady between 3.3 and 3.4 dB.
ADSL2+ only goes up to 2MHz, if the homeplug is operating above that then an ADSL2+ connection wouldn't be affected. FTTC goes up to 17MHz currently
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The most obvious indicator would be a lower and/or more variable SNRM when the device in question is operating. In a really bad case it might trigger a resync.
Cheers. No particular change in Noise Margin when I switched them off at 08:40. It's maybe not authoritative because my line is showing zillions of FECs at the moment, but they don't seem to change when the powerline stuff is switched off either. I'll test again when (if) the line finally gets fixed, but it doesn't appear to me that they are THE problem at the moment.
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@renluop: Homeplugs interfere with some systems and don't interfere with others. As far as I know, they can interfere with ADSL2+ systems, but that certainly doesn't mean that they will.
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@renluop: Homeplugs interfere with some systems and don't interfere with others. As far as I know, they can interfere with ADSL2+ systems, but that certainly doesn't mean that they will.
EXACTLY ! (and WiFi is similar) It may be cheaper (in cash and/or effort) than Ethernet but there is no guarantee of optimum performance. If it works it is luck, and this may run out if a neighbor gets interference !
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I'm fairly sure the interference comes from the poorly designed switch mode PSUs built into the home plugs. I'm pretty sure someone on here proved the point and set out the tests made to establish that fact. Not surprising really since it is so easy and cheap to throw together the bits necessary to build a SMPSU and most produce wide spectrum noise. It is another thing entirely to make a design that keeps the noise to a sensible level. Chances are that specific models will have the same SMPSU design and provided they don't use alternative manufacturers' capacitors, if you find one that works without problems, others of the same manufacture will too.
Tony
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You may well be right there, Tony. I'm quite sure that's the case with WiFi (i.e. it's the PSU which interferes with DSL connections, not the WiFi itself). I'm not so certain about homeplugs, but it's a believable theory.
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Chances are that specific models will have the same SMPSU design and provided they don't use alternative manufacturers' capacitors, if you find one that works without problems, others of the same manufacture will too.
Tony
most or all components from capacitors to resisters are made in china the manufacturers name on the outside of the device is completely different to who make the electronics in the inside.
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Agreed. Homeplug = evil
And should be made legally prohibited from sale.
I cant recall the exact details now, but it was either Sweden or Norway who banned certain power line adapters due to the amount of RFI that they produced. One of the models they banned was the same as which BT was quite happily selling in their online store (tplink model). There's a thread somewhere on these forums from a few years ago in which I reported the details. OFCOM doesnt care and didnt want to interfere [pun].
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> OFCOM doesnt care and didnt want to interfere [pun]
Groan :'( :lol:
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Agreed. Homeplug = evil
And should be made legally prohibited from sale.
I cant recall the exact details now, but it was either Sweden or Norway who banned certain power line adapters due to the amount of RFI that they produced.
It was Norway.
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Wouldn't mind testing a pair of PLA's other than the TP-LINK 200Mbps (TL-PA211) but have a feeling that even with a different make or model the interference will still show up.
If anyone would like to send me a pair of PLA's i'll test them and make and observation on how it effects the broadband or not and then send it back postage free :)
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> OFCOM doesnt care and didnt want to interfere [pun]
Groan :'( :lol:
of course, it has no impact on telecom competition so they dont care.
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If anyone would like to send me a pair of PLA's i'll test them and make and observation on how it effects the broadband or not and then send it back postage free :)
I've got a spare pair not in service and currently surplus to requirements, I'll look them out and see whether they're of interest to you.
I'm also interested in your comment about TP-Link, I have two TL-WPA4220 and one TL-PA4010, and my tentative tests suggested that they did not have any impact. They're out of service at the moment but removing them didn't seem to change either SNR or error rate.
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If anyone would like to send me a pair of PLA's i'll test them and make and observation on how it effects the broadband or not and then send it back postage free :)
I've got a spare pair not in service and currently surplus to requirements, I'll look them out and see whether they're of interest to you.
I'm also interested in your comment about TP-Link, I have two TL-WPA4220 and one TL-PA4010, and my tentative tests suggested that they did not have any impact. They're out of service at the moment but removing them didn't seem to change either SNR or error rate.
I tried every home plug going some years back and always ended up with millions of FECs and a lost connection just plugging them in and switching on let alone trying to actually connect. Tried some wireless Devolo homeplugs and same problem so gave up.
A few months back while at someone else's house trying to sort out some wiring, I spotted they had some I'd never seen before. And they had a spare pair so borrowed them expecting the usual failure. But no, they worked flawlessly without the slightest trace of any noise above my floor level of around 300-1000 FEC/min and certainly zero affect on any other stats.
So bought a pair of my own and have been using ever since.
They are BT products (Broadband Extender) but don't know who actually makes them but they are very different appearance-wise to others.
It may just be my setup here but nothing in the wiring or equipment has changed since trying the previous ones.
The ones I have are these:
http://www.shop.bt.com/products/bt-mini-wi-fi-home-hotspot-500-kit-079029-9N14.html?refs=50910 (http://www.shop.bt.com/products/bt-mini-wi-fi-home-hotspot-500-kit-079029-9N14.html?refs=50910)
They do make a 'larger' (Dual Band) version but haven't tried these.
I do have a spare master plug (the one on the left). I'll see if I can pick up the other one somewhere and can then loan that if you like..
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They are BT products (Broadband Extender) but don't know who actually makes them but they are very different appearance-wise to others.
It may just be my setup here but nothing in the wiring or equipment has changed since trying the previous ones.
The ones I have are these:
http://www.shop.bt.com/products/bt-mini-wi-fi-home-hotspot-500-kit-079029-9N14.html?refs=50910 (http://www.shop.bt.com/products/bt-mini-wi-fi-home-hotspot-500-kit-079029-9N14.html?refs=50910)
I had the same BT set last summer and also noticed no impact on my FTTC connection. However, I have since given them away as I got a Home Hub 5 which has much better Wifi than the Plusnet ADSL modem it replaced.
At the time, BT were selling them on offer for around £30. If I got any now, I guess I would want dual band ones..
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I cant recall the exact details now, but it was either Sweden or Norway who banned certain power line adapters due to the amount of RFI that they produced.
It was Norway.
Thank you. I didn't get around to searching for the post I had in mind, which is here: PLT, DSL, PowerLine Adaptors & EMI (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14695.0.html)
of course, it has no impact on telecom competition so they dont care.
OFCOMs stance has always been that they refuse to intervene - link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/05/ofcom_plt_response/)
Ive not seen anything more about that more parliament consultation and any conclusions drawn.
If anyone has time they may wish to trawl through the OFCOM docs on PLT here (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/plt/).
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Wouldn't mind testing a pair of PLA's other than the TP-LINK 200Mbps (TL-PA211) but have a feeling that even with a different make or model the interference will still show up.
The completely spare adapters that I have are branded "Simpler Networks", marked on the back as "200Mbps PLC Mini Passthrough". Reportedly these were supplied by BT (or O/R) on some sorts of installs.
I'd be interested in testing these myself as well, do you have any more details on the methodology of your previous testing? However I only have 20CN ADSL.