Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: tuk on March 17, 2008, 06:20:49 PM
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Im trying to figure out my BT setup as Im about rewire my house for phone and broadband.
The problem is my 'Drop Wire' enters by the kitchen.
It then connects to a small yellow oval box(BT 60-70's style)) which doesn't seem like the master box, when i look inside(its a mess) from what i can see 4 wires come in and 4 wires go out.
The 4 wires coming out go through to the living room and connect to what looks like a modern type Master Box(bottom faceplate etc), I can also see 2 wires emerging from this Box for the extensions so this does look like a Master Box.
To me it looks like the oval thingy in the kitchen is the old 'Master Box' and everything after this box has been installed a'la non BT including the modern master box.
...so Im thinking I can rewire everything after the oval box without tampering with BT's equipement?????
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Not officially, no. BT own everything up to the master socket, and you do need the master socket because it contains surge suppressing components and other things. Your best technical option would be to replace the master socket faceplate with a filtered faceplate, and connect your extensions to that. The possible downside of that is that you would have to position your modem/router close to the master socket, but it would give you the best performance.
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The small yellow thing is a "Block terminal" essentialy not a master socket, it's just a connection point between your drop wire and the internal Cable (lead-in) which leads up to what you describe as the master socket. and this is all part of BTw monopoly wiring. To get this moved/changed etc is done by BT and yes will involve a charge.
From the master socket faceplate you can fit your own internal wiring, the best cheepest way is obtaining cableing from a diy store along with an insertion tool, the basic ones cost about 70p but if your going to fit a number of sockets it's worth investing in the full blown idc tool as it makes life a lot easyer. ;D
Colour codes, blue wire with white rings go in termination number 2,
white wire with blue rings go in termination number 5 (both of these are the voice & dsl wires)
Orange wire with white rings goes in no.3 (bell wire which gets phones to ring in all your extentions)
any others are spare, so if you have a 2nd line a single 6 wire cable can support this.
Spere wires don't coild them around the cable, looks neat, old practice but causes problems with data, and the same thing don't coild them round in a nice ring, (coil the surplus in a coil then flatten the coil so they just run back & forth
Don't put more than 3 wires in any idc, always hold the insertion tool straight before terminating (failure on both these can cause a fault which is infuriating to locate) ???
Run cable at least 50mm away from mains cables for any lenght.
run the cable along the top of skirting boards and around the top of door frames.
Never under carpet or across high foot traffic areas such as the floors across doors (guaranteed fault sometime in the future)
If you have a profiled skiting board then running the cable along the profile is ideal as particuarly after a coat of paint it should really look as it its part of the moulding. (only problem here is if some one later cuts through the cable while working on the skirting board. spent hour one morling with an 85m run only for the dial tone to dissapear mid test. Then found the chippys mate complete with saw in hand >:()
Only use staples if the stapler is tapered (otherwise your guaranteed to pass a staple somewhere through the cable) don't use a stapler if the staples are tight on the cable causing a pin-cusion effect (lots of little dsl faults)
Easyest method is to use cleats, not as pretty, but a lot easyer.
And before putting a staple/cleat in make sure your not about to put it through an exising cable which looks like part of a door frame/skirting board (done that my 1st time :-[)
If your looking to completely sort everything, best option is look to use an adsl face plate. The main problem is the master socket is the only plase with a dsl signal, all your extentions will just have normal telephony. You can have brand new perfectly fitted extention wiring & still find it kills your internet connection :no:
Or stuff the whole idea and just go for cordless, phones and router ;D
(I've also listed all this in case anyone reading this is thinking/doing the same or trying to locate what might be causing an issue on dsl with their internal wiring)
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Thanks for all the prompt and detailed info guys, much appreciated.
Lots to think about..it would be nice to have an adsl faceplate, but it would have to be in the Living Room and thats the only place I don't need a BB terminal. I wish I could at least replace the wiring between the 'Block Terminal' and the Master socket cos it looks terrible..the BlockTerminal is practically hanging off the wall with too much surplus wiring inside u can hardly close the lid without crushing it..
I would like to rewire with the finest materials available creating the terminals shown in pic 2..so any input from you guys would be good, wireless is a consideration but only if its as fast or faster than using wire..and even then Id still rather use wire to avoid living with excess radio signals...also I cant have any lag issues for Gaming purposes..even if the lag is tiny...so minimizing total cable length etc is essential
The other things is, and i don't even know if this is possible???, Bed 1,2 each need to have a separate router using the same BB obviously, sometimes only 1 router will be on and other times both will be on...but basically they need to work independently of each other
Pic 1: Current wiring situation, although I seem to get decent attenuation in 'Bed 2':
Uptime: 0 days, 4:17:31
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 5,600
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 107.27 / 705.95
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 19.5 / 32.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 26.0 / 11.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 169 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 15,189
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 261
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 20
Pic 2: Is where I need tel and BB terminals
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internal wiring dosn't have to be telecom dedicated. you could have a non wireless router. Typicaly they have 4 ethernet outputs. You could always fit cable using cat5 cable which would plug into the back of your router, and have a socket the other end via which a pc/laptop can plug into.
Remember the exchange can only speack to one modem at a time (or modem/router combination) although you can run a hub only unit from a router output
following may give an idea.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menuno=11716&FromMenu=y&doy=18m3&MenuName=Modular%20Wall%20Accessories
http://www.maplin.co.uk/family.aspx?menu=1668&MenuName=Wired+Networking&worldid=-3&doy=18m3
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menuno=12568&FromMenu=y&doy=18m3&MenuName=Telephone%20Cables
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Yes indeed, it would be nice to rewire that section between the block terminal and the mastersocket that looks so bad and might be causing problems. If you did, the block terminal and the BT mastersocket would remain, with new wiring between them - no BT engineer would see anything to question if they had to visit in the future. The only problem would be if you messed up the job and had to call BT out to fix your mistakes. You would then be in a bit of trouble as you aren't supposed to touch anything before the mastersocket. Pity you're not supposed to do it.
Why are 2 routers needed ? Don't hit me but I just need to check you do understand that a router can allow 2 PCs to use one broadband connection. I think the only way to be able to use 2 routers independently is to have 2 lines coming into the house, or one adsl and one virgin cable connection ... expensive.
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You don't need two routers to run two PC's! (and you can't have two routers on at the same time on one telephone line)
If you get a "4 port router" it will have four ethernet ports. You then run Cat 5e ethernet cable to each bedroom which will plug in to the back of the PC's. Both PC's can use the internet simultaneously. You could also put a ethernet switch (as many ports as you want) in a bedroom which would allow more PC's to be connected.
If the router was a wireless router (these frequently have 4 ethernet ports as well) you would be able to use several laptops, and the PC's in the bedrooms at the same time. Obviously the more devices using the internet at the same time will slow each of them down, but it should be perfectly usable for general browsing and email with up to 10 or 20 PC's :P
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Thanks, Iv read all your advice and hopefully understood, Iv posted the pic of my beta wiring plan, so basically I need tel and broadband in 3 rooms...let me know what you guys think
The only problem would be if you messed up the job and had to call BT out to fix your mistakes
Whats the worst that could happen, I mean as long as I follow wiring diagrams I should be ok right?..or is this harder than it seems
I was thinking 2 routers because both bedrooms need internet but the other bedroom wont always have access to the bedroom with the router(to turn it on), so I'm thinking of putting the router beside the 'Master Socket in the living room and running cat5e to each of the bedrooms..this will solve the 2 router thing as well as providing internet in the living room..so 3 for the price of 2 + router will provide occasional wireless access for using the lappy in the garden hehehe..cant wait to get started
Further questions..sorry ???
Bearing in mind I want to use the best materials to ensure the best connection possible and avoid any wierd internet lag issues when more than one pc is using the router..I need good connection for gaming..stable low ping etc...
1) I seen cat6-7 cable is available would this be better than cat5e..any disadvantages??
2) Will my wiring setup be compatible for adsl2 for when i get it in the summer
3) Is there any overhead from having the router next to the master socket in the living room as opposed to beside the PC in the bedroom(using normal short cable that comes with router)
4) Does an Ethernet switch allow multiple pc's to use 1 cat5e cable...Bedroom 2 will have 2 pc's needing wired internet access..so its something Il need to consider..is there an overhead compared to using separate cables from the router for each pc
5) Would this setup act like a home network, or would i have to wire differently to have a home network..like say an office..where multiple pc's can see each other as well as sharing internet
6) What do you think about taking the cable(Not the Red cable obviously) up through the loft and dropping it into the rooms at the desired places..maybe this would require shorter cable lengths than running it around door frames etc...
7) Ok, If I'm going to all this I may as well rewire between the 'Block Terminal' --> 'Master Socket. Since BT put this wire in..British Gas have covered the wire with a vent shaft for the boiler...Is it possible to buy the exact same wire that BT use??..or could I use better cable??..and what about the BT and MS boxes can they be bought somewhere??..would BT notice
8. What good quality cable should I use for my tel. extensions...are their any issues from running it alongside the cat5e-7 cable
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Unless you want Gigabit speeds between your PC's Cat 5e is perfectly adequate (you'd probably get away with Cat 5 - but I wouldn't recommend it). Cat 5e is fine fine 100MB speeds - remember the maximum you are going to get on ADSL2+ is 24MB so you will be future proof.
I'd strongly recommend having the router direct in to the master socket - extensions are a frequent cause of problems.
In the bedroom with multiple PC's you need a ethernet switch, e.g. http://www.ebuyer.com/product/26037 This will allow up to 4 PC's in that room (you plug the Cat 5e in to one of the 5 ports).
This will give you a full home network.
If going through the loft is easier - definitely do that.
You can't touch any wire before the master socket - only BT can do that.
Why don't you get a cordless phone with multiple handsets? Put the base unit near the master socket (but physically keep away from the router as much as possible and make sure router and phone are on totally different channels). That way you don't need extension wiring for the phones (and you'll have a phone you can use in the garden!).
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The one problem we found with a cordless suite registered to a single base was that only one handset could be used at any one time... It doesn't sound much but we were used to picking up the phone anywhere and "handing over" if you know what I mean.
we now use multiple bases+handsets now and we can do this again.
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True. We have one wired phone (in my office) and a single base unit - it does mean that we can both be talking to a daughter at the same time who is away at boarding school.
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Just a note about the cat5e network cable...
Each length must be "point to point" so to speak - a single cable length must be connected to a single device at either end, be it the router, switch PC etc.
Just saying that as by the looks of the pic (which doesn't show where you would use a switch so appologies if this is something you already know) in Bed 2 you want two connections.
This is fine if you have a switch connected to the feed from the router and then cables to each PC/laptop/console etc but don't hardwire two cables into one - it doesn't work ::)
I just mentioned it as I have met people who have not been fully aware of the principles of networking and have tried doing it that way.
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Just as an aside I have BT Synergy 700 phones. It has an "int" key - which has multi-purpose functions. Paging, transfering calls between handsets and also what they call 3 way conversation which allows 2 phones to be talking to the external caller. The later function only works if you use the synergy handsets registered to the same synergy base station and only 2 of any of the handsets can talk to the external call at the same time.
The phones are about 3 year old now so not sure if that model is still available, but even if it isnt I should imagine there would be a newer version with the same function. Still worth having a wired phone though - cause the cordless ones dont work during a powercut.
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Heh if you can remember how to transfer a call to another handset and remember which handset is which when you need to then you're doing way better than me :lol:
Wired is always better than wireless when building a network. Wireless is convenient but sooner or later someone else will use that channel - we've had this on the wireless LAN, DECT phones and even the doorbell! (I kid you not)
"This is fine if you have a switch connected to the feed from the router and then cables to each PC/laptop/console etc but don't hardwire two cables into one - it doesn't work"
soms - it does if you only want 100Mbps cabling as that only needs 4 wires, so you can run wiring for two 100Mbps sockets with one run of CAT5 cabling. Its a bit naughty and I really wouldn't recommend it anywhere other than in the home but you can get away with all sorts of bodges on 100Mbps ethernet :)
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If I understand your diagrams, you could put one ethernet cable from router to a switch in bed2, then from the switch - two cable stay in bed 2, one cable goes across to bed 1, and 1 cable goes down to the room below. Might simplify the wiring ?
Then get cordless phones which allow all the features that you require as mentioned above.
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soms - it does if you only want 100Mbps cabling as that only needs 4 wires, so you can run wiring for two 100Mbps sockets with one run of CAT5 cabling. Its a bit naughty and I really wouldn't recommend it anywhere other than in the home but you can get away with all sorts of bodges on 100Mbps ethernet :)
Yes thats quite right :)
I was referring to someone attaching two lead ends in parallel to one plug.
I had forgotten about the little plastic couplers which allow two leads to be merged into one at each end, very useful if you only need two connections at the end as it saves having to buy a switch.
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Thanks again for all your feedback..
Sorry for the delay, house renovations atm hence the cable questions..so not much time to log on
Im going to be forced to swap ISP's before I can install my network(so much sanding still to do sigh!), AOL 8Mb-->02 16Mb ADSL2 should I?:
1)Replace my faceplate and plug my PC directly into the Master socket while 02 attenuate my line and then return my pc to the bedroom on the extension when they are finished
or
2)Wait until my network is installed then ask them to re-test my line
or
3)Would it be possible to have(until I can install the cable):
1 router into the MS in the living room
1 router in the bedroom wired to pc
Then use the bedroom router to access the net via the MS router using wireless, in effect use the ms router as a wireless gateway with the bed router as the client
4)Something else
remember the maximum you are going to get on ADSL2+ is 24MB so you will be future proof.
...would there be any disadvantages to going up to something like cat6-7..
You can't touch any wire before the master socket - only BT can do that.
Coudnt I replace the wire between the MS and the block terminal so that BT coudnt tell the difference
Just saying that as by the looks of the pic (which doesn't show where you would use a switch so appologies if this is something you already know) in Bed 2 you want two connections.
I would probably run an extra cat cable for this connection
Why don't you get a cordless phone with multiple handsets?
I prefer wired
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Im going to be forced to swap ISP's before I can install my network(so much sanding still to do sigh!), AOL 8Mb-->02 16Mb ADSL2 should I?:
Up to you - looking at your line attenuation and current SNR, you may get a 8 - 9 Mbps sync speed with O2, at a very rough guestimate.
1)Replace my faceplate and plug my PC directly into the Master socket while 02 attenuate my line and then return my pc to the bedroom on the extension when they are finished
or
2)Wait until my network is installed then ask them to re-test my line
or
3)Would it be possible to have(until I can install the cable):
1 router into the MS in the living room
1 router in the bedroom wired to pc
Then use the bedroom router to access the net via the MS router using wireless, in effect use the ms router as a wireless gateway with the bed router as the client
4)Something else
1. Think you're getting a bit muddled with terminology there... there is no such process as 'attenuating' a line. Are you thinking of the 10-day training period you often see talked about? If so, this isn't really an issue on a non-BT line.
2. Again, no point if you're switching to O2.
3. Theoretically, yes... IF the router you're using as a wireless gateway supports acting as a wireless access client. Alternatively if all your routers support WDS (wireless distribution service) which in basic terms allows two or more routers to work together to enlarge the wireless coverage footprint of the same wireless signal. I've never set up WDS so I don't know any of the little caveats / tricks etc.
4. Beg, steal or borrow USB wireless dongles (it's amazing how many people now have these floating around spare!) to connect your PCs to the one router - probably much simpler to set up than configuring routers as clients or WDS.
remember the maximum you are going to get on ADSL2+ is 24MB so you will be future proof.
...would there be any disadvantages to going up to something like cat6-7..
Other than that it'd cost a bomb in comparison, no! However, there wouldn't be any advantage either. CAT5e cable runs perfectly at 1Gbps. To be honest, your router probably only supports 100Mbps anyway - you don't need any faster unless you're regularly transferring a lot of data between computers on your LAN, and then you'd have to buy a Gigabit switch. It's up to you, it certainly wouldn't hurt, but like I say, you would see no gain by using CAT6 or 7 instead of CAT5e cable. I somehow can't see 10Gbps home networking being used in the next few years at least!
You can't touch any wire before the master socket - only BT can do that.
Coudnt I replace the wire between the MS and the block terminal so that BT coudnt tell the difference
Basically, you're not allowed to. If you choose to do so and are confident in doing so, that's up to you - just make sure you don't call BT out if it stops working!
I would like to make it clear that replacing BT-owned wiring is an action which is not recommended or endorsed by this website, and you could end up being issued with a penalty charge if BT determine a line fault to be caused by unauthorised modification of their wiring.
Just saying that as by the looks of the pic (which doesn't show where you would use a switch so appologies if this is something you already know) in Bed 2 you want two connections.
I would probably run an extra cat cable for this connection
If you have room to do it and can tidy it away easily enough, go for it. Only other way would be to install a small switch or hub in the Bed 2 room (2 / 4 port 100Mbps hubs / switches are dirt cheap now, or you could even use a spare router if you have one, as simply a glorified Ethernet switch!)
Hope that helps!
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All good info again, just a quick reply from me ..rush rush rush..Iv got my mac now and 25 more days to use it
If so, this isn't really an issue on a non-BT line.
2. Again, no point if you're switching to O2.
Its a BT line Iv got, as far as I understand u need a BT line to get 02,ideally I would rather have all my cabling down before the 'training period'..wireless dongles may be the answer to tide me over until then..then means my training period should be accurate for my new cable..Ima bit foggy here..Im thinking the training stuff will happen between my router and 02's kit in the exchange..so everything I plug into my router wont effect it? ie wireless dongles etc..
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>> Im thinking the training stuff will happen between my router and 02's kit in the exchange..so everything I plug into my router wont effect it? ie wireless dongles etc..
Correct.
Although to stand the best chance make sure you use the master socket if you havent already got around to ensuring that your internal wiring is at the best it can be.
Also whilst Be/O2 do have a training period it isnt quite as strict as the BT one - ie theres no IP profiling to further limit your speeds.