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Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 07:01:34 AM

Title: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 07:01:34 AM
Plusnet have started to move some of their customers over to a new Dedicated WBMC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBMC_dedicated) network.

Dedicated WBMC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBMC_dedicated) is a logical move for Plusnet to make - As their customer base increased, they have outgrown Shared WBMC and what it was originally designed for.  The signs that something was brewing was first spotted on their forums (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147446.msg1297561.html#msg1297561) on the 5th of Jan 2016.

What is WBMC?

A full explanation can be found on the main website: WBC/WBMC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm), but in brief it is one of the ways how your internet traffic is routed between your home and your ISP.

 
 
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FWBMC_dedicated_thumb.png&hash=0431602b7a1bb399b94d3e79c3846a2835c42db4) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBMC_dedicated)
Dedicated WBMC
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FWBMC_shared_thumb.png&hash=a53a42539c8f9897f8681ef76e85a34b8118d8f1) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBMC_shared)
Shared WBMC


Issues with the Shared MSILs.

It has been obvious that since January 2015 during peak times some of the Shared WBMC MSILs have been experiencing difficulties and some customers with 80Mbps were seeing peak time congestion down to just 12.5Mbps. Plusnet always maintained that they had sufficient bandwidth of their host links meaning that once the SVLAN had been ruled out then it is most likely to be congestion at the MSILs.
I been saying since March 2015 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14902.msg282007.html#msg282007) that the shared MSILs (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#MSIL) owned by BT wholesale were the most likely point of congestion. 
 
Adrian Kennard (http://www.revk.uk/) owner of the ISP AAISP (http://aaisp.net/) has also been reporting since early 2015 that there was a problem at the BTw Interconnects. [which is where the MSILs are located].

I believe Zen & Uno may also have been affected.  The issue does not go away upon migration to another ISP that also uses shared WBMC.  Gateway hopping can sometimes provide temporary relief if you end up on a different MSIL.   That said BTw may have fixed the issue at certain locations.  I have not personally seen any problems with Manchester for the past few months.   I suffered quite badly though at times for at least 6 months or more. 
Talktalk and Sky who have their own network were not affected.   BTretail was also unaffected as they already use dedicated WBMC. Plusnet moving away from shared may actually be beneficial for the remaining shared ISPs.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thinkbroadband.com%2Fspeedtest%2Fbutton%2F142766067221294883023-mini.png&hash=37d25342efbb4397bdca0b2939c80cdc50d9c829) (http://http:http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html?id=142766067221294883023)

It should be noted that Plusnet moving to Dedicated WBMC was not a direct result of issues with the shared MSILs, as mentioned above, they simply outgrew what Shared WBMC was designed for.

Benefits of Dedicated WBMC

Although traffic still goes over the BT core network, it is sectioned away from other Shared WBMC bandwidth and provided the ISP purchases sufficient bandwidth at the nodes then issues such as the peak time congestion seen last year should not re-occur.   Shared WBMC is designed for ISPs who cannot afford to purchase bandwidth at each of the Interconnects.

The ISP has much more control over routing so it could mean slightly lower latency.    For example BT retail uses dedicated WBMC and if one of their customers lives in Manchester and wants information say from the Met Office whose server is located in Birmingham.  Then the customer would hop on to the core at Manchester and hop off at Birmingham.  This is not possible with shared WBMC as all traffic would have to from Manchester to London where the ISP has their host link, and then go back up to Birmingham. 
Whether Plusnet will do this or not remains to be seen.  It will depend on where they have interconnects and direct peering.

A note about tracerts when on Dedicated WBMC:-    With shared WBMC all BTw based routing is hidden using L2TP so you will never see any of the BTw routing hops.   With dedicated you will likely see the RAS/ Interconnect routers.    It may look like you have more hops, but in reality you wont.   With shared they are still there, just hidden.

Time Scale

No official statement has yet been issued by Plusnet about a time scale for migrating customers over to the new network, but it may be best if they roll out in stages.  Plusnet will have to ensure that they purchase sufficient bandwidth at each of the core nodes that they connect to.   Some people may recall the bumpy ride that Enta had when they first purchased their own WBC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBC_Interconnects) MSILs and until they adjusted to how much bandwidth their users were needing at each of the interlinks around the UK, there were some areas of congestion. 

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FWBC_interconnects.png&hash=0d0ac019dc5f689146045ae2764cd2aa9512fe0b)
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 07:03:22 AM
Comments aimed at Plusnet

It is a big mystery to me why Plusnet have with-held this information.   Plusnet should be telling users what they are doing.  We are not all BT/TT users and we will notice changes in our routing.  It took me once glance to suspect what they were doing, and then a simple look at a tracert to be pretty damn sure what they had done.  Please don't treat us as mushrooms.   

This is a positive step that should proudly be announced.   It would also stop what I've no doubt will be a lot of forth coming queries from some of your user base.   At least officially announce things such as this on your forums beforehand so the techies will know,  Joe Bloggs probably wont care.. but not all of us are stupid.  There is no reason to hide something that will come out in the wash anyhow.

OK, there may be some teething problems until you gauge bandwidth correctly, but don't you think its better to warn us.   That way we will understand and be patient rather than moaning if one of the nodes needs a bit more bandwidth.    Talk to us, tell us and you'll be surprised at what a difference it makes when it comes to complaints. 

Since last year they have known the problem was with the shared MSILs but refused to publicly state where the issue lay, if Plusnet had been more open at the time, then it would have saved a lot of grief and bad feelings on the forums.   



Myths

Plusnet is highly unlikely to ever use WBC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBC_WBMC_difference), nor do BT retail use WBC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#WBC_WBMC_difference).  This is a myth I see again and again on other forums that really needs to be put to bed. 

Why on earth would a BT owned company use a third party (eg Murphx) for backhaul transit when BT own what is supposedly one of the best CORE networks with the most redundancy.   As Ive said elsewhere, it would be akin to British airways flying all their paying passengers on Virgin Planes.    They'd be paying their competitor for transit when they own their own perfectly good routing.  :no:


Notes

Thanks to jelv for originally bringing the PN post (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147446.msg1297561.html#msg1297561) to my attention and asking what I thought it may be (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16707.msg308083.html#msg308083).  Credit also to oldjim (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147447.0.html) for first spotting something odd about that post.

The explanation from the rep of a cease being place implies a change of ISP service provision.  A tracert supplied by a forum member confirmed to me that Plusnet were no longer using shared WBMC - hop 4 shows a private network at what must be the Core Node (or near the RAS in old money).

This is confirmed as definite.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: AArdvark on January 07, 2016, 07:23:51 AM
Questions:
Will Plusnet move some or all their customers to Dedicated WBMC ?

Can they run a mix of shared and dedicated WBMC ?

(Will dedicated WBMC be used *only* to solve the Problems in areas of congestion and everyone else left as they are ?)


Sent from my LG G3 via Tapatalk (Typos & bad formatting are free)

Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: AArdvark on January 07, 2016, 07:25:49 AM
Sorry lost the 1st line, which follows.

Thanks for the info and heads-up.

Sent from my LG G3 via Tapatalk (Typos & bad formatting are free)

Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 07:43:47 AM
They can run a mix...  but once they have their own MSILs it would be false economy not to eventually transfer all customers over.   
So say for eg they rented a MSIL in Birmingham, then customers who pass through Birmingham will be added. 

Its pointless paying for MSILs and also paying for host links.    Host links are subject to a contract period [or were last time I looked which was a long while ago], so I would imagine they will eventually start closing these down when any contract period is up.   They may be able to buy out contract early which is something they have done before when moving over to larger pipes.

No idea how Plusnet will stage it..   to me it would make sense to move FTTC first in order to judge better bandwidth requirements, then say put on the adsl users. 
Enta moved en-mass so hopefully PN learn from Enta's experience and do so at a slightly more sedate pace.  Perhaps moving the vISPs over last.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Weaver on January 07, 2016, 09:24:02 AM
Kitz, how big is PlusNet?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Weaver on January 07, 2016, 09:24:39 AM
Excellent post btw
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 07, 2016, 09:45:28 AM
Quote from: Weaver on January 07, 2016, 09:24:02 AM
Kitz, how big is PlusNet?

Based on the growth rate we were seeing and the numbers online when they removed the graphs they should have around 950,000 users by now (they should have had a boost following the TalkTalk hack so it may be more).
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: WWWombat on January 07, 2016, 11:39:39 AM
Very interesting move.

950k users is certainly a number where an ISP ought to be considering the dedicated WBMC option, though the details of migration (via an overnight cease) look poor. I guess BTW haven't had many ISP's grow over the threshold to make the transition, to make them think of an easier migration path.

I'm still on the old setup, with a connection that has been up for 60 days now.

There are some posts by PN staff stating that things won't always be visible via traceroute. I wonder why not?

@Kitz
"This is confirmed as definite"
Is that confirmation based on seeing the traceroute? Or an independent confirmation via other means?

I see in your diagrams of WBMC, you show that connections into node C via a bRAS and "21CN backhaul". Is the lack of a bRAS/backhaul for nodes A and B significant? Or just a shortcut, and we should assume they exist there too?

Does the recent introduction of MSE bRAS (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/MSE_BRAS.htm) affect the logical view of "node C"? Does the existence of 50x as many bRAS mean there are many more interconnect nodes, APs and MSILs? Or has the new bRAS placement meant that there is a split in the "21CN backhaul", with one leg from MSAN to bRAS, and another leg between bRAS and interconnect node?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: gazaai on January 07, 2016, 07:49:50 PM
Does anyone think they will have better ping times than BT Retail because of this? My Contract ends soon and I thinking about changing provider to possibly lower latency.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 07, 2016, 08:57:18 PM
This change should be totally transparent to the user. So what are Plusnet doing? Sending them a text message:

Quote
Your Broadband order has successfully completed. if you want any more information go to ............

If the user hasn't changed anything, that is going to confuse and worry them and they'll probably try to contact Plusnet to find out what is going on. But that's alright because we all know that the support staff just sit around all day waiting for calls to come in as they are over-resourced!
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Weaver on January 07, 2016, 08:59:02 PM
@jelv - that's utter madness
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 09:16:54 PM
Quote
@Kitz
"This is confirmed as definite"
Is that confirmation based on seeing the traceroute? Or an independent confirmation via other means?

Initially I suspected because of the cease.  Once I'd seen the tracert it was a pretty sure bet.
It was confirmed last night by other means.  Once I'd sussed it and said so,  there was no point denying it otherwise they would have just looked stupid.

Quote
Is the lack of a bRAS/backhaul for nodes A and B significant? Or just a shortcut, and we should assume they exist there too?

Yes,  its a short cut to show that they will have other nodes.   
The backhaul, bRAS, BTRADIUS etc will still be there as will the MSANs (or DSLAMs in the case of fttc).

Quote
stating that things won't always be visible via traceroute. I wonder why not?

No idea sorry that does seem a little strange - as does the fact atm how both the core node by the RAS and the end node shows an ip as part of a private network.   Whether in time & once all the nodes are live they may allocate external IPs to show proper ownership I dont know.  They have a lot more flexibility to do what they like,

One thought does spring to mind though & jelv will perhaps recall this too.   
Many years ago, and soon after BT bought Plusnet a few of us were invited to trial what Plusnet called the 'RIN' network.  Looking back with and with hind sight, we may have been beta testing dedicated WBMC for BTretail.   We were issued with BTr IP addresses and as with dedicated you could see all the hops that are normally hidden with shared WBMC... or IPstream as it was back then.  The timescale certainly fits .. anyhow I digress slightly, but the interesting thing was the amount of direct peering which cuts out many hops.   I gave an example above with the met office.      JANET is another, but there are plenty more..  but an interesting one was doing a tracert to someone also on the RIN trial but in the next town to me.      My trace was done in about 3 hops total, there was the Manchester RAS (not responding to ICMP), then another IP, then his IP.  I could ping him in about 12ms.  (ie 6ms to the RAS and 6ms back to him.

Compare this with on shared and how traffic has to go all the way down to London and back up the country through Manchester again and then back on to him, you are talking more like 24ms to ping someone in the same town as me.
So.. as I mentioned in my first post, they could do a lot more direct routing which could cut out the London gateway hops which we are now so used to seeing.

Quote
Does the recent introduction of MSE bRAS affect the logical view of "node C"? Does the existence of 50x as many bRAS mean there are many more interconnect nodes, APs and MSILs? Or has the new bRAS placement meant that there is a split in the "21CN backhaul", with one leg from MSAN to bRAS, and another leg between bRAS and interconnect node?

Ive not seen anything documented about this..  my speculation and thats all it is .... to me it seems logical that it doesnt quite do either, but 'split' would be the closest interpretation, because its still in effect 'backhaul' until it reaches the Core node.     

They have added a few new nodes but absolutely no where near enough to make all the MSE bRAS core nodes.   There always has been some nodes which are core nodes but not interconnects and vice versa.   The main benefit of MSE bRAS is authentication occurs closer and sooner.   The old style RAS had 2 main functions 1) authentication and 2) routing traffic on to the CORE.

Under the new system
1) Authentication is done nearer as would any policies such as QoS normally carried out at the RAS.   
2) 21CN Routing carries on as normal   

There is already a structure in place whereby the backhaul traffic passes through a series of switches and routers until it reaches the Core node location.  - see the diagram here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/21cn_network.htm#21CN_network_diagram).

Apologies if Ive missed an important point when it comes to protocols as thats not my forte and Im far too tired to look it up and think things through properly,  so I shall leave someone else to comment on ATM v PPPoE and if that is affected by changes to location.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 09:34:13 PM
Quote from: WWWombat on January 07, 2016, 11:39:39 AM

950k users is certainly a number where an ISP ought to be considering the dedicated WBMC option, though the details of migration (via an overnight cease) look poor. I guess BTW haven't had many ISP's grow over the threshold to make the transition, to make them think of an easier migration path.


Oops forgot to comment on this.   
I was surprised when I went back to Plusnet that they werent using dedicated because they had sufficient customers to make it viable.     I lost interest in what they were doing for a while when I was with BE.   One of the first things that BT actually did when they took over Plusnet was add extra capacity.. and quite a lot of it.   Its not just the cost of the pipes but also the Junipers.   iirc I moved out from PN just as the RIN trials were finishing, so maybe they decided that shared was the most cost efficient at that time.   Its really only been in about the past 3 years that they have gone way over the 500k.

Like you say, I cannot think of any other ISP that has been in this particular situation.   
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Weaver on January 07, 2016, 09:34:43 PM
[off-topic] Kitz, could you walk me through the protocol stack changes as we go across the BT 21CN network some day when you're really really bored, just very quickly? If memory serves, then MPLS, Ethernet, L2TP and so on all have their places? Am re-reading your own magnum opus plus Wikipedia. I was trying to think about how an IPv6 packet would make it from an end-user to an IPv6 server such as Google, which now prefers IPv6 (in my case).

I suspect I've asked this question before one day, in which case I beg you all for your indulgence, but my brain has turned to mush, and continues to do so when trying to dig out protocol stack diagrams of BT-land.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 09:44:59 PM
As per above, protocols aren't really my forte.   I know the basics - ie what I learnt many years ago when doing a degree..  but much of that Ive now forgotten... and obviously some of protocols on a need to know basis only if theyve been mentioned so many times..  but Im afraid this isnt an area where Ive ever been that much interested in, so I'm not the best person to ask. :(
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 07, 2016, 10:18:37 PM
Quote from: kitz on January 07, 2016, 09:16:54 PM
One thought does spring to mind though & jelv will perhaps recall this too.

Funny you should say that: this (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,75843.0.html) is one of the topics on the Plusnet Community forums I was looking at yesterday!

Edit: just gone looking some more to find a RIN tracert. Here's one of mine from back then: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,71225.msg564853.html#msg564853

Use this search in Google to find out more about the RIN trial: site:community.plus.net RIN -wap2 -printpage
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 07, 2016, 11:07:05 PM
The tracert's have the same pattern as BTr now, with a low latency on the first hop before it reaches plusnet's core network.

So i am 99% sure this is a move to WBMC dedicated from shared.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 07, 2016, 11:21:06 PM
Quote
So i am 99% sure this is a move to WBMC dedicated from shared.

I am 100%.  I had it confirmed last night.

Quote
unny you should say that: this is one of the topics on the Plusnet Community forums I was looking at yesterday!

Thanks for that, it would be interesting to review it again..  goes to read :)
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 07, 2016, 11:34:48 PM
kitz its a shame they still wont say it publicly tho, and comments like this I think does them more harm than good, this is from bob plusnet staff member.

Quote
The decision to do so (which has been long in the making), is not a direct response to yours or any body else's reported problems though

I think they think its better PR to pretend there was no confirmed issues (in doing so saying they not acting on complaints) and just say this would have happened regardless, whilst I think its harmful.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: burakkucat on January 07, 2016, 11:49:29 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 07, 2016, 10:18:37 PM
. . . this (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,75843.0.html) is one of the topics on the Plusnet Community forums I was looking at yesterday!

That is utter shambles of non-support! As there was never any public conclusion to that thread, I presume the end-user decided to become an ex-Plusnet customer.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: tickmike on January 08, 2016, 09:46:52 PM
Have you seen this
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/01/uk-isp-plusnet-quietly-swaps-to-a-dedicated-wbmc-network-platform.html
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 08, 2016, 10:55:03 PM
... and now we see the first post where it's gone wrong:

Quote from: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147553.0.html
I've been moved across internally from your old network to the new one. Ever since I've had no Internet as I can't now authenticate with the server. Tried multiple routers, cables, modems all to no avail. Had engineer come out and nothing he can do. All I've been told is that until more people get the same issue it'll just be logged with the support team. Are any others experiencing the same problem

One wonders how many users who either don't post on the forums, or can't access the internet via mobile to post are in a similar boat?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 08, 2016, 10:59:18 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 07, 2016, 08:57:18 PM
This change should be totally transparent to the user. So what are Plusnet doing? Sending them a text message:

Quote
Your Broadband order has successfully completed. if you want any more information go to ............

If the user hasn't changed anything, that is going to confuse and worry them and they'll probably try to contact Plusnet to find out what is going on. But that's alright because we all know that the support staff just sit around all day waiting for calls to come in as they are over-resourced!

Just seen a Usenet post where the user has rung up to find out what is going on exactly as I predicted.

God knows what some of the decision makers in Plusnet towers have between their ears - I know what it isn't!
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 09, 2016, 12:51:48 AM
Quote from: jelv on January 08, 2016, 10:55:03 PM
... and now we see the first post where it's gone wrong:

Quote from: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147553.0.html
I've been moved across internally from your old network to the new one. Ever since I've had no Internet as I can't now authenticate with the server. Tried multiple routers, cables, modems all to no avail. Had engineer come out and nothing he can do. All I've been told is that until more people get the same issue it'll just be logged with the support team. Are any others experiencing the same problem

One wonders how many users who either don't post on the forums, or can't access the internet via mobile to post are in a similar boat?

That sounds a bit strange.   If it is migration to the new platform then odd they should send out an engineer.   I take it they do have sync?
If it is an authentication issue then there will be nothing that an OR engineer could do either at the home or exchange.
If the EU has been migrated to the new platform and if Plusnet can see that they submitted a request, then they should be checking with which realm is listed on the BTw SSB (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/equip2.htm#authentication) list.
A simple test would be to see if they can log into the BTw realm.

Not sure if it will work but certainly worth a shot
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/bttest.htm
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 13, 2016, 02:06:21 PM
This isn't going as it should!


Quote from: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147447.msg1299562.html#msg1299562
I received a Txt message yesterday evening informing me that my broadband order had been completed! I had not changed anything.

This morning I checked my account and found a ticket saying I had migrated to another supplier and for checks to be made to see if I owed anything! I have not migrated and in fact recently renewed my contract.

After my wife and I returned home at mid day I found no internet connection so rand PlusNet, 15 minute wait, I was only getting lunch ready so I can do two things at once!

When call answered Checks made I was informed I had been switched to the new network and would need to reset the router as it was not recognised on the network, so pin in hole and reset, after it rebooted internet was back working.

So looks like switching customers over to new network does not always go seamlessly and also says you have migrated!

Derek
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: big360 on January 13, 2016, 06:32:24 PM
I've been having issues with speedtests not going over 15Mbps for the past week even though the modem was connected at 40Mbps and BTw checker showed IP profile of 38Mbps. Spoke to Plusnet net and apparently it was related to me moving to this new network. What was odd was the tracert's I've been doing the over the past few days suggested I was still on old network. They made a change today and line reconnected. Speedtest results back to normal and trace now indicates I'm on new network.

Tracing route to ntp.plus.net [212.159.6.9]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.254]
  2    25 ms    26 ms    25 ms  195.166.130.210
  3    26 ms    26 ms    26 ms  link1-central10.pcl-ag06.plus.net [84.93.249.161]
  4    28 ms    26 ms    26 ms  po2.pcl-gw01.plus.net [195.166.129.41]
  5    30 ms    29 ms    26 ms  cdns01.plus.net [212.159.6.9]
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 13, 2016, 06:43:32 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 13, 2016, 02:06:21 PM
This isn't going as it should!

Oh dear :(   
Afaik Plusnet are the first ISP to move from shared to dedicated.   Enta has been through similar with shared to WBC but I cant recall if there were problems with any of their customers during migration.
It seems odd that it would take a full router reset would clear the issue.  I note that bob denied its anything to do with TR069.
Perhaps a stale session which would have cleared during that time-frame anyhow?

---

andrewsimk case looks a lot more serious and something different.
It would be interesting to see if he could log into the BTw realm though. 



Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 13, 2016, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: big360 on January 13, 2016, 06:32:24 PM
I've been having issues with speedtests not going over 15Mbps for the past week even though the modem was connected at 40Mbps and BTw checker showed IP profile of 38Mbps. Spoke to Plusnet net and apparently it was related to me moving to this new network. What was odd was the tracert's I've been doing the over the past few days suggested I was still on old network. They made a change today and line reconnected. Speedtest results back to normal and trace now indicates I'm on new network.

Tracing route to ntp.plus.net [212.159.6.9]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.254]
  2    25 ms    26 ms    25 ms  195.166.130.210
  3    26 ms    26 ms    26 ms  link1-central10.pcl-ag06.plus.net [84.93.249.161]
  4    28 ms    26 ms    26 ms  po2.pcl-gw01.plus.net [195.166.129.41]
  5    30 ms    29 ms    26 ms  cdns01.plus.net [212.159.6.9]


No answer why this should be.  Was that 15Mbps at all times of the day and I wonder what your PN profile was set at. :hmm:
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: big360 on January 13, 2016, 06:56:10 PM
It was all times of the day. The plusnet line profile page showed it as being 14.9Mb before which I pointed out to Plusnet support as they said they could not find any issues with their standard tests. After the change  today the line profile page is now showing 40Mb. Pings a bit better now too. Happy days!  :)
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 13, 2016, 07:02:39 PM
Quote from: kitz on January 07, 2016, 07:01:34 AM

Issues with the Shared MSILs.

It has been obvious that since January 2015 during peak times some of the Shared WBMC MSILs have been experiencing difficulties and some customers with 80Mbps were seeing peak time congestion down to just 12.5Mbps. Plusnet always maintained that they had sufficient bandwidth of their host links meaning that once the SVLAN had been ruled out then it is most likely to be congestion at the MSILs.
I been saying since March 2015 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14902.msg282007.html#msg282007) that the shared MSILs (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm#MSIL) owned by BT wholesale were the most likely point of congestion.   


The ticket which I have had open since July 2015 where they finally admitted,

I can confirm that we are managing to replicate the issue on this side, work to eliminate the cause of this issue is ongoing and we hope to have further information shortly.

It was later confirmed that my account was one of those where the issue could be reliably replicated and the MSILs were the likely issue.   
The ticket has remained open since then with a few updates .  In Dec I got
Quote
[INTERNAL]
Further work being completed - Problem 89196.
This Question is now on hold until Monday 11th January at 7:00am.

Yesterday my ticket was closed

Quote
Thank you for your continued patience and apologies in the delay in getting back to you.

I have spoken further with our backend team and they have informed me that the majority of the problems we were seeing during peak times have now been resolved. There are further investigations ongoing for isolated cases with our suppliers but overall you should have seen an improvement. If you continue to see peak time slowdowns then please do let us know and we shall complete further investigation for you.


Edited to correct typo:  July 2016 >  July 2015
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 13, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Quote from: big360 on January 13, 2016, 06:56:10 PM
It was all times of the day. The plusnet line profile page showed it as being 14.9Mb before which I pointed out to Plusnet support as they said they could not find any issues with their standard tests. After the change  today the line profile page is now showing 40Mb. Pings a bit better now too. Happy days!  :)

I wondered if that could be the case.   
I would therefore suspect that the 15Mb was unrelated to the impending move, and Plusnet should really have been able to reset that for you there and then, but perhaps didnt like to mess with anything their side as they will have been able to see that you were due to go over to the new network. 

As it turned out it looks like migration to the new platform has automatically done this for you.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: WWWombat on January 13, 2016, 09:42:48 PM
Quote from: kitz on January 13, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Quote from: big360 on January 13, 2016, 06:56:10 PM
It was all times of the day. The plusnet line profile page showed it as being 14.9Mb before which I pointed out to Plusnet support as they said they could not find any issues with their standard tests. After the change  today the line profile page is now showing 40Mb. Pings a bit better now too. Happy days!  :)

I wondered if that could be the case.   
I would therefore suspect that the 15Mb was unrelated to the impending move, and Plusnet should really have been able to reset that for you there and then, but perhaps didnt like to mess with anything their side as they will have been able to see that you were due to go over to the new network. 

As it turned out it looks like migration to the new platform has automatically done this for you.

I wondered if the migration to the new system has triggered a false IP-profile-delta report in PN's backend - which resulted in the wrong IP profile being set. This certainly happened in the middle of migrations from ADSL to FTTC. Perhaps some default (even held within BT Wholesale) has been passed through.

We're now watching our account very carefully ... but if someone could report how much advance warning could be gleaned by monitoring the "closed" tickets (ie how far before the migration does a ticket appear), it would help...
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: WWWombat on January 13, 2016, 09:45:26 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 13, 2016, 02:06:21 PM
This isn't going as it should!
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. Rick Cook, The Wizardry Compiled

I was struck by your .sig, jelv, in this pending morass.

I reckon, on this one, that Plusnet is proving that the Universe keeps sending those idiots, and the software engineers just can't keep up...
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 14, 2016, 05:21:31 AM
kitz did you have to poke anyone higher up to get that kind of response to your tickets? mine were just closed with comments saying product is within spec.

obviously that was factored in to my decision to leave plusnet.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 14, 2016, 01:53:51 PM
Quote from: Chrysalis on January 14, 2016, 05:21:31 AM
kitz did you have to poke anyone higher up to get that kind of response to your tickets? mine were just closed with comments saying product is within spec.

obviously that was factored in to my decision to leave plusnet.

No. 
I was as you know originally posting on the forums, but got peed off at certain people denying there was an issue & some of the garbage that was spouted... so I decided to open a ticket.   At first I got the generic tests and ensure you are using ethernet not wifi etc.   
I had a bit of firm but polite rant saying I've already told you this and I suggest you look at this thread on your forums.  It went quiet for a couple of days, then for some reason was picked up by a complaints advisor and I got a PM on their forums from one of whom I shall call the 'old school reps' who I now think is pretty high up on the networking side of things.    As I told you at the time, said person knows his stuff and told me that they had been monitoring my line and had been able to replicate the issue and basically confirmed that my theory re the MSILs could be correct.  I was told they were investigating and were not taking it lightly.   I did post something on the PN forums to this effect but there was that much ho-ha going on at the time it was probably lost.  Also the fact that Bob said it wasn't capacity at their end.  Im inclined to believe Bob as he doesnt, nor has he ever done the BS.  So I sat back and waited because I'd also got a pile of other things going on that was taking up all my time.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 14, 2016, 03:12:14 PM
I've had a PM from Kitz confirming who it was at Plusnet - he has been there a long time, was heavily involved with the network configuration from way back and really knows his stuff. I had a testing session with him where I was disconnecting/connecting, he was looking at which MSIL I'd connected through and I'd run a TBB speed test looking for the slow x1 result. He was able to accurately predict before I ran each test whether it would be good or bad.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 14, 2016, 04:38:28 PM
Yeah I was told also before, but was just curious if said person had to push someone in tech support to treat it seriously.

For sure that idiot on the plusnet forums derailed that thread so much it made the message even harder to get across.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 14, 2016, 05:27:36 PM
Kitz (or anyone else): is there anything in how the WBMC dedicated is configured or bandwidth purchased that would make sense of Plusnet offering 40/2 and not 40/10?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: burakkucat on January 14, 2016, 07:10:01 PM
[off topic]
I wonder if the reason for Plusnet dropping the supply of the 40/10 product was planned because they may be soon supplying the 55/10 product?
[/off topic]
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: ktz392837 on January 14, 2016, 08:04:29 PM
Is there an easy way of finding out if you are on the new network and which wbmc node you are on?  Thanks
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 14, 2016, 11:08:57 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 14, 2016, 05:27:36 PM
Kitz (or anyone else): is there anything in how the WBMC dedicated is configured or bandwidth purchased that would make sense of Plusnet offering 40/2 and not 40/10?

Nope as per the old centrals and shared its bandwidth is symmetric.   
The savings of 40/2 was IMHO possibly something to do with reaping back the previous 80/20 they did even if the EU could only get 40/10.    Bit of a waste of money really that was and they were the only ISP that did this.  So I'd say it will have been purely down to the £3+VAT pm savings on the port component.   I dont know how many fttc users they do have but just say half are on fttc, and they manage to put half of those on 40/2 then that is a potential saving of 75k per month.

Quote
[off topic]
I wonder if the reason for Plusnet dropping the supply of the 40/10 product was planned because they may be soon supplying the 55/10 product?
[/off topic]

Don't know,  depends what the charging structure is for the product, not even sure if the SP's would be aware of its impending release back when they decided to drop to 40/2.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 14, 2016, 11:17:03 PM
Quote from: ktz392837 on January 14, 2016, 08:04:29 PM
Is there an easy way of finding out if you are on the new network and which wbmc node you are on?  Thanks

atm by doing a tracert.
If you are on dedicated then you will see a hop with a private IP eg 172.17.xx
From the tracerts Ive seen, the interconnect routers arent configured to respond to ICMP ping so it doesnt give anything away about location.

The private IPs indicate Plusnets network, whether or not in time they allocate public IPs which could make the locations more visible (as BTretail/consumer do) I dont know. :/
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 15, 2016, 09:39:18 AM
I thought it was probably symmetric.

Isn't the difference between 40/2 and 40/10 only .50p?

40/20 was a bonkers idea in the first place!
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: ejs on January 15, 2016, 09:55:24 AM
From the WBC price spreadsheet, 40/2 is £13 and 40/10 is £14 per month, ex VAT of course. 80/20 is £16. 55/10 isn't listed in the WBC price list yet.

Perhaps 55/10 will be the new "Fibre Extra" offering, and 80/20 will be reserved for BT Infinity.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: aesmith on January 15, 2016, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: burakkucat on January 14, 2016, 07:10:01 PM
I wonder if the reason for Plusnet dropping the supply of the 40/10 product was planned because they may be soon supplying the 55/10 product?
If I understand correctly Plusnet never used 40/10, they used to supply a 40/20 service which they provisioned by buying 80/20 from BTW/OR and then applying their own capping to the download speed to create the 40/20.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 15, 2016, 11:25:17 AM
Yes, that's why I said it was bonkers. Paying BTw 80/20 price while charging the customer significantly less than they charged their genuine 80/20 customers.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: roseway on January 15, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
Edit - I may be talking nonsense, which isn't unusual

It looks as though I'm on the new network now:

Quote
root@nuthatch:/home/eric# traceroute -I ntp.plus.net
traceroute to ntp.plus.net (212.159.13.50), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  home.gateway.home.gateway (192.168.1.254)  0.550 ms  0.551 ms  0.941 ms
 2  195.166.130.194 (195.166.130.194)  19.725 ms  19.736 ms  19.744 ms
 3  irb.14.ptw-cr01.plus.net (84.93.249.65)  11.719 ms  11.727 ms  11.726 ms
 4  ae2.ptw-cr02.plus.net (195.166.129.5)  11.725 ms  11.733 ms  12.124 ms
 5  po2.ptw-gw02.plus.net (195.166.129.39)  12.506 ms  12.509 ms  12.927 ms
 6  * * *
 7  ntp.plus.net (212.159.13.50)  10.969 ms  10.370 ms  10.375 ms
root@nuthatch:/home/eric#

In my case it was quite seamless. A couple of nights ago I noticed that, according to http://usertools.plus.net/@gateway (http://usertools.plus.net/@gateway) I'd been moved from ptw-bng01 to pcl-ag03, and the above traceroute resulted.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 15, 2016, 11:53:13 AM
The wholesale costs of a port from Openreach are:

Code: [Select]
Openreach product Monthly wholesale cost (ex. VAT)
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 40/2 £6.90
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 40/10 £7.40
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 55/10 £8.40
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 80/20 £9.95
GEA-FTTP 110/15         £13.15
GEA-FTTP 220/20         £15.61
GEA-FTTP 320/30         £29.61
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: HPsauce on January 15, 2016, 01:27:09 PM
Sorry to appear dumb, but what element of the gateway or tracert tells you you are on the new WBMC network?
I am:
Quote
currently connected to gateway pcl-bng03. This is located in City Lifeline House.
And:
Tracing route to ntp.plus.net [212.159.13.49] over a maximum of 30 hops:
  1     3 ms     1 ms     1 ms  BThomehub.home [192.168.1.254]
  2     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  lo0.10.central12.pcl-bng03.plus.net [195.166.130.166]
  3     9 ms     9 ms     9 ms  irb.12.pcl-cr02.plus.net [84.93.249.114]
  4     9 ms    10 ms     9 ms  po2.pcl-gw02.plus.net [195.166.129.43]
  5     8 ms     8 ms     9 ms  cdns01.plus.net [212.159.13.49]
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Al1264 on January 15, 2016, 01:51:49 PM
Quote from: roseway on January 15, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
It looks as though I'm on the new network now:

Quote
root@nuthatch:/home/eric# traceroute -I ntp.plus.net
traceroute to ntp.plus.net (212.159.13.50), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  home.gateway.home.gateway (192.168.1.254)  0.550 ms  0.551 ms  0.941 ms
 2  195.166.130.194 (195.166.130.194)  19.725 ms  19.736 ms  19.744 ms
 3  irb.14.ptw-cr01.plus.net (84.93.249.65)  11.719 ms  11.727 ms  11.726 ms
 4  ae2.ptw-cr02.plus.net (195.166.129.5)  11.725 ms  11.733 ms  12.124 ms
 5  po2.ptw-gw02.plus.net (195.166.129.39)  12.506 ms  12.509 ms  12.927 ms
 6  * * *
 7  ntp.plus.net (212.159.13.50)  10.969 ms  10.370 ms  10.375 ms
root@nuthatch:/home/eric#

In my case it was quite seamless. A couple of nights ago I noticed that, according to http://usertools.plus.net/@gateway I'd been moved from ptw-bng01 to pcl-ag03, and the above traceroute resulted.
I don't think that's the new network TBH, 195.166.130.194 is in the range of the typical existing gateways, it's just missing its rDNS.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: renluop on January 15, 2016, 01:54:53 PM
+1 HPSauce's query above.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 15, 2016, 02:26:28 PM
@roseway

Quote from: kitz on January 14, 2016, 11:17:03 PM
If you are on dedicated then you will see a hop with a private IP eg 172.17.xx
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 15, 2016, 03:13:03 PM
As I Said on the plusnet forums, the 2 give away's are.

1 - A new hop with lower latency indicating you are hitting a entry point nearer to you (as is on BT retail).
2 - First external hop on a ip with no RDNS.  As these managed dedicated services the pattern seems they dont want to bother with reverse dns.

Calling it a new network might be a bit of a stretch, the actual plusnet network is probably the same, the bit that is changed is in how they interact with BT wholesale.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Al1264 on January 15, 2016, 04:12:31 PM
Quote from: Chrysalis on January 15, 2016, 03:13:03 PM
Calling it a new network might be a bit of a stretch, the actual plusnet network is probably the same, the bit that is changed is in how they interact with BT wholesale.
'Network with a little new bit'  :)
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 15, 2016, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: Chrysalis on January 15, 2016, 03:13:03 PM
2 - First external hop on a ip with no RDNS.  As these managed dedicated services the pattern seems they dont want to bother with reverse dns.

The problem with saying that is that Plusnet have been shockingly bad recently at setting up the RDNS for new end points (see http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,134822.0.html - there's end points that have been live for months which still haven't been properly configured). That why Kitz's definition is the correct one to use:

Quote from: jelv on January 15, 2016, 02:26:28 PM
@roseway

Quote from: kitz on January 14, 2016, 11:17:03 PM
If you are on dedicated then you will see a hop with a private IP eg 172.17.xx

Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 15, 2016, 05:23:03 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 15, 2016, 11:25:17 AM
Yes, that's why I said it was bonkers. Paying BTw 80/20 price while charging the customer significantly less than they charged their genuine 80/20 customers.

Because they were using 80/20 to provision 40Mb, its why I said price differential of £3 and a potential saving of 75k per month if they could get half of their users to downgrade to the 40/10 product. 
Judging by what Ive seen they were quite successful in getting people - particularly those not in the know and those that arent aware - to renew their package.   They seemed to be on an all-out campaign to get anyone who was on 40/20 to 'downgrade' knowing that the average man in the street doesnt look at the upload.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 15, 2016, 05:45:59 PM
Quote from: roseway on January 15, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
Edit - I may be talking nonsense, which isn't unusual

It looks as though I'm on the new network now:

Quote
root@nuthatch:/home/eric# traceroute -I ntp.plus.net
traceroute to ntp.plus.net (212.159.13.50), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  home.gateway.home.gateway (192.168.1.254)  0.550 ms  0.551 ms  0.941 ms
 2  195.166.130.194 (195.166.130.194)  19.725 ms  19.736 ms  19.744 ms
 3  irb.14.ptw-cr01.plus.net (84.93.249.65)  11.719 ms  11.727 ms  11.726 ms
 4  ae2.ptw-cr02.plus.net (195.166.129.5)  11.725 ms  11.733 ms  12.124 ms
 5  po2.ptw-gw02.plus.net (195.166.129.39)  12.506 ms  12.509 ms  12.927 ms
 6  * * *
 7  ntp.plus.net (212.159.13.50)  10.969 ms  10.370 ms  10.375 ms
root@nuthatch:/home/eric#

In my case it was quite seamless. A couple of nights ago I noticed that, according to http://usertools.plus.net/@gateway (http://usertools.plus.net/@gateway) I'd been moved from ptw-bng01 to pcl-ag03, and the above traceroute resulted.

Im with Al1264, that doesnt look like dedicated Im afraid. :(

Quote from: HPsauce on January 15, 2016, 01:27:09 PM
Sorry to appear dumb, but what element of the gateway or tracert tells you you are on the new WBMC network?
I am:
Quote
currently connected to gateway pcl-bng03. This is located in City Lifeline House.
And:
Tracing route to ntp.plus.net [212.159.13.49] over a maximum of 30 hops:
  1     3 ms     1 ms     1 ms  BThomehub.home [192.168.1.254]
  2     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  lo0.10.central12.pcl-bng03.plus.net [195.166.130.166]
  3     9 ms     9 ms     9 ms  irb.12.pcl-cr02.plus.net [84.93.249.114]
  4     9 ms    10 ms     9 ms  po2.pcl-gw02.plus.net [195.166.129.43]
  5     8 ms     8 ms     9 ms  cdns01.plus.net [212.159.13.49]

The gateway isnt the giveaway, you need to be looking at the routing prior to the the gateway.

Quote from: renluop on January 15, 2016, 01:54:53 PM
+1 HPSauce's query above.



Sorry if I was a bit brief with "If you are on dedicated then you will see a hop with a private IP eg 172.17.xx" although that is the most obvious.

The full signs which give it away are in this post I made on the 6th of Jan (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16707.msg308086.html#msg308086)

What you are looking for is an ICMP response somewhere in the 6/7/8 ms region (if you aren't interleaved) as this is the average time for the majority of lines to be able to reach one of the Interconnect nodes. 
You are also very likely to see the BTw Interconnect routers listed as a hop, but these usually dont respond to ICMP.
As well as the 172.x address at the Interconnect node, you will also probably see a 172.x address at the place of exit off the core which will take a few ms more, but be about the same time or within 1ms as the gateway hop.
I know the above description is vague, but its more about the timings and at the moment the 172.x private addresses.   This could change because they could later assign a proper address to those 172.x hops.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 15, 2016, 06:06:28 PM
Quote from: gt94sss2 on January 15, 2016, 11:53:13 AM
The wholesale costs of a port from Openreach are:

Code: [Select]
Openreach product Monthly wholesale cost (ex. VAT)
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 40/2 £6.90
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 40/10 £7.40
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 55/10 £8.40
GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP 80/20 £9.95
GEA-FTTP 110/15         £13.15
GEA-FTTP 220/20         £15.61
GEA-FTTP 320/30         £29.61

Thank you for that.  Although those are the GEA connection port costs it does perhaps give an indication of what region the WBC/WMBC components could be.

GEA port costs are those made to the likes of the LLU providers such as Sky and TT who connect to the OLT at the exchange.
WBC/WMBC both use the BTw backhaul (exchange -> Interconnect) and according to the latest BTw price list are:

Quote
Standard EU Rental (FTTC 40Mbps Downstream, 2Mbps Upstream)   Month   £13.00
Standard EU Rental (FTTC 40Mbps Downstream, 10Mbps Upstream)   Month   £14.00
Standard EU Rental (FTTC 80Mbps Downstream, 20Mbps Upstream)   Month   £16.00


I'd therefore make a guess that 55/10 would come in at £15.00.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: burakkucat on January 15, 2016, 06:08:50 PM
Quote from: kitz on January 13, 2016, 07:02:39 PM
The ticket which I have had open since July 2016 . . .

Something niggled when I first read the above phrase and it has only just dawned on me -- as we are currently in January 2016 (as of the date of this post) then July 2016 is still in the future! Hence I presume the above should read July 2015.  :-\
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 15, 2016, 06:09:44 PM
oops it should.   I will edit.  Thanks for pointing out my typo.   :-[
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 16, 2016, 08:48:18 PM
Quote from: jelv on January 15, 2016, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: Chrysalis on January 15, 2016, 03:13:03 PM
2 - First external hop on a ip with no RDNS.  As these managed dedicated services the pattern seems they dont want to bother with reverse dns.

The problem with saying that is that Plusnet have been shockingly bad recently at setting up the RDNS for new end points (see http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,134822.0.html - there's end points that have been live for months which still haven't been properly configured). That why Kitz's definition is the correct one to use:

Quote from: jelv on January 15, 2016, 02:26:28 PM
@roseway

Quote from: kitz on January 14, 2016, 11:17:03 PM
If you are on dedicated then you will see a hop with a private IP eg 172.17.xx



I have never seen them setup a gateway with no RDNS, but only the wrong RDNS.

But yes RDNS isnt the only thing to check, you need to know what latency you usually get and if a new extra hop appears with lower latency then you have probably been moved. It might be multiple extra hops, when I was on BT there was about 4-5 hops visible on the BTw routing.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 18, 2016, 12:40:43 PM
Interesting:

Quote from: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147733.msg1300636.html#msg1300636
Slight more info, this is my gateway.

You are currently connected to gateway pcn-ar01.

This is located in Colindale Point of Presence
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 18, 2016, 01:37:45 PM
Colindale PoP is where the EU will have exited the Core and joined the more traditional PN routing.

I mentioned in the first post that now they are using dedicated they have the flexibility for traffic to come off any of the core nodes they like.   I wouldnt like to predict what they will do and if they will eventually arrange more peering at certain nodes.   For the time being it looks like traffic is still going through the telehouse peering...  which is understandable as most large organisations peer from here.    They could in future peer direct with JANET in Manchester or the MetOffice in Birmingham etc to decrease latency for those in the north.  Right now it will be more important to get all the nodes connected and customers migrated over.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 18, 2016, 02:47:33 PM
Rather than it being Colindale specifically I was more interested in the fact that the gateway checker will now tell you if you are on the new network.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 18, 2016, 05:34:59 PM
Sorry, think I missed the point that it had come from the gateway checker.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: big360 on January 28, 2016, 10:47:24 PM
Anyone know a  reason why I would have been moved back to the "old" network?

Quote from: big360 on January 13, 2016, 06:32:24 PM
Tracing route to ntp.plus.net [212.159.6.9]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.254]
  2    25 ms    26 ms    25 ms  195.166.130.210
  3    26 ms    26 ms    26 ms  link1-central10.pcl-ag06.plus.net [84.93.249.161]
  4    28 ms    26 ms    26 ms  po2.pcl-gw01.plus.net [195.166.129.41]
  5    30 ms    29 ms    26 ms  cdns01.plus.net [212.159.6.9]

Today

Tracing route to ntp.plus.net [212.159.6.9]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.254]
  2    28 ms    31 ms    26 ms  lo0-central10.ptn-ag03.plus.net [195.166.128.192]
  3    27 ms    26 ms    26 ms  link-a-central10.ptn-gw01.plus.net [212.159.2.136]
  4    26 ms    27 ms    35 ms  212.159.0.108
  5    39 ms    26 ms    25 ms  ae2.ptw-cr02.plus.net [195.166.129.5]
  6    26 ms    29 ms    29 ms  po2.ptw-gw02.plus.net [195.166.129.39]
  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  8    29 ms    27 ms    26 ms  cdns01.plus.net [212.159.6.9]

Trace complete.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 28, 2016, 11:26:17 PM
You've posted two tracerts from the old network - could you tell us what made you think you'd been moved to the new one?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: big360 on January 29, 2016, 02:24:53 PM
Plusnet support had said I had been moved when I called them with speed issues. I also thought that unresolved 195.166.130.210 address meant I was on new network but I've just seen the previous posts about the 172. address for new network so I guess plusnet were telling me porkies..
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: ejs on January 29, 2016, 03:37:54 PM
Plusnet did also say (https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147447.msg1297901.html#msg1297901) that not everyone would see the different traceroutes.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 29, 2016, 03:47:42 PM
Just had a thought: when I connect I see these entries in my router log:

Code: [Select]
<38> Jan 29 15:41:03 PPP CHAP Receive challenge from rhost bras-red2.sl (Internet)
<38> Jan 29 15:41:03 PPP CHAP Receive challenge from rhost JUNOS (Internet)
I wonder if those change when you are on the new network?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: ejs on January 29, 2016, 04:01:48 PM
I don't think those will tell you much, unless people can correlate a change in the one like your "bras-red2.sl" with a switch to the new network. I think the first one, bras-red2.sl, or mine like acc-aln6.tw, is a part of the BTWholesale network before it's gone to Plusnet, and the JUNOS part is just the name of the Plusnet gateway.

I think the acc-aln6.tw in mine is the MSE in the Tunbridge Wells exchange, so it's probably not going to change whatever Plusnet do.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: Chrysalis on January 29, 2016, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: ejs on January 29, 2016, 03:37:54 PM
Plusnet did also say (https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147447.msg1297901.html#msg1297901) that not everyone would see the different traceroutes.

Then the rep who said that is probably wrong, I think they trying to cause confusion.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on January 29, 2016, 10:53:00 PM
Junos means a bng I think. If you get one of the ag's it gives you it's actual name.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: niemand on January 30, 2016, 11:46:52 AM
Yeah JunOS is the operating system the Juniper ERXs (https://www.juniper.net/us/en/local/pdf/datasheets/1000074-en.pdf) that Plusnet call BNGs are using.

The other bit I *think* indicates you landed on BRAS Redback 2 (http://www.ericsson.com/ourportfolio/products/se-family?nav=productcategory004%7Cfgb_101_0192) in BTW's Slough PoP. Ericsson acquired Redback Networks a while ago hence the Ericsson page. Don't quote me on that, I know BTW used Redback kit extensively at one point.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on January 30, 2016, 01:59:13 PM
Quote
I *think* indicates you landed on BRAS Redback 2 in BTW's Slough

That would fit.
Historic naming of the bRAS has usually always indicated the type of equipment/number/location   eg

esr5.manchester5.broadband.bt.net  = Cisco ESR 
ERX3.Manchester2 = Juniper ERX

Quote
I think the acc-aln6.tw in mine is the MSE

A few years ago they purchased a large amount of Alcatel 7750's (https://www.alcatel-lucent.com/products/7750-service-router) which were put to use as MSE bRAS.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on March 18, 2016, 07:34:09 AM
There's been a post with more information about this:

Quote from: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,147447.msg1313460.html#msg1313460
Hi everyone,

Been a while since I've posted on here, been very busy working on the new network so I'd just like to try and clear up a few things about what we're doing here.

I'll start with timescales. The new network is being enabled geographically and by product and customers are being moved in batches each week using these and other selection criteria (we aren't moving customers that have an open fault or are in the process of upgrading to fibre for example). Until full national coverage is ready it makes it tricky to put new customers on so we're just electively moving existing customers for the time being until we've completed the coverage.

We've asked a few people to help out with testing and as we've run out of areas where we have staff members and I'd like to say thanks to those that said they will, it's really appreciated as it means we can get some feedback before we move thousands of people over. Next on the list is Cardiff next week and Edinburgh at the beginning of April.

Gateway hopping is now something that you won't see in the same way as the new network doesn't have gateways as such to hop between. On the old network your connection would be routed to the BT BRAS which would then in turn send the traffic to one of our gateways over L2TP where your PPP session terminates. On the new network the PPP session terminates on the BT BRAS instead and the traffic is simply IP over to us. Which is why you see a load of different hops in the traceroute, those hops are there on the old network but they are hidden because by the L2TP tunnel. The new network is built on 100Gbps technology too with multiple routes through the network which can change without having to gateway hop and therefore should be more seamless.

Also without having the gateways we're also removing a point of failure and piece of fragility - the L2TP session. There are certain types of maintenance work or certain types of outage that can cause a drop of the L2TP session meaning from a customer point of view they have to wait for their router to detect the session is down and re-establish it, in most cases that's quite quick but on the new network because we now see IP traffic the session won't drop and the traffic just fails over to another route without anyone noticing.

As the PPP session terminates on the BT BRAS the IP address that you are assigned is given by the BT BRAS, depending on how many customers we have on the BRAS you're on you're likely to see very similar IP addresses, even the same IP address each time you disconnect and reconnect. We provide BT a big pool of IPs and they divvy them out to each BRAS based on how many customers we have on each one. Even on the old network you'd still be connecting to the same BT BRAS every time just now we're having the BRAS give you the IP address instead of having it pass the traffic on to our gateways.

Let me know if there's anything else that needs clarifying and I'll try and clear it up.     

Regards,
Dave Tomlinson
PlusNet (http://www.plus.net) Network Services (http://community.plus.net/blog/tag/iplayer/)
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: kitz on March 18, 2016, 07:49:03 PM
Thanks for posting that jelv.

Quote
The new network is being enabled geographically

TBH I think that is quite wise and Im sure that I said such at the beginning, that its better if they can to do it in stages.
   
When moving from IPStream to WBC, Enta did it all at once and it became quite disruptive for many as some of the PoPs groaned and users complained about lack of bandwidth.   Although PN arent using WBC -  WBMC Dedicated is more like WBC in many ways than it is to WBMC shared..  so this way they should be able to react quicker if there are any issues.  :fingers:

Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on March 18, 2016, 10:18:12 PM
There's more information on the linked topic.

Apparently those on fixed IPs will still be terminated on the BNG's via L2TP and hence won't see any change to their tracert.

20CN users will not go on to the new network.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: renluop on March 18, 2016, 10:42:44 PM
Quote from: jelv on March 18, 2016, 10:18:12 PM
There's more information on the linked topic.

Apparently those on fixed IPs will still be terminated on the BNG's via L2TP and hence won't see any change to their tracert.

20CN users will not go on to the new network.
Another likely dippy question! What will happen to anyone going fixed IP, who is on the new network; will they stay or revert back to BNG via L2TP?
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: jelv on March 19, 2016, 09:47:42 AM
You've not understood: people on fixed IPs will be moved to the new network but instead of the session being terminated on the BT BRAS it will be tunnelled through and terminated on a BNG.
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network
Post by: renluop on March 19, 2016, 10:33:59 AM
Please forgive age and stupidity! ;D
Title: Re: Plusnet move to Dedicated WBMC Network - progress report
Post by: jelv on October 28, 2016, 08:19:46 PM
This is a copy of a post I've just made on the Plusnet Community forums
(link (https://community.plus.net/t5/General-Chat/Progress-of-migration-to-new-network-from-WBMC-Shared-to-WBMC/m-p/1380854#M210653))

Progress of migration to new network (from WBMC Shared to WBMC dedicated)

Re: Planned Network Maintenance - Tuesday 1st November 01:00 - 06:00 (https://community.plus.net/t5/Service-Status/Planned-Network-Maintenance-Tuesday-1st-November-01-00-06-00/td-p/1380800)

These regular service posts obviously relate to the migration of users on to the new network as intimated by the cryptic
Quote
Possibly. As part of this maintenance some customers will be disconnected from the Internet. Any customers disconnected should reconnect automatically elsewhere on the network.
I've been watching the progress of this project since it started at the beginning of the year (I get to see the collated users online graphs). As people are moved to the new network they disappear from the graph. I presume those on fixed IPs still appear on the graph as they still connect to the bng's. Allowing for continued growth in customer numbers it appears that in excess of 500,000 users are now on the new network.

{See attached image "Users online year.png"}

What can also be seen is the pause in early August when they finally put the migrations on hold while they sorted out the packet loss issues.

The weekly graph for this week is also quite revealing:

{See attached image "users online week.png"}

What can clearly be seen is that around 25,000 users were moved to the new network in the maintenance slot in the early hours of Tuesday morning (https://community.plus.net/t5/Service-Status/Planned-Network-Maintenance-Tuesday-25th-October-01-00-06-00/td-p/1379513).
We don't know where this will bottom out as we don't know how many users in total are on fixed IPs, but guessing from the figures it looks like another 4 or 5 months to complete the program if they carry on at the current rate.

Decommissioned gateways

Another observation is that it appears that gateways pcl-bng04 and ptw-bng02 have been decommissioned. I posted a bit back (https://community.plus.net/t5/Plusnet-Feedback/Gateways-being-shut-down/m-p/1369387) asking if anyone was on those gateways (no-one replied to say they were). Recently I've noticed that there seem to be no users on ptn-ag2. It looks also as if ptw-ag02 may be decommissioned soon as well.