Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: davidmaiden18183 on October 02, 2006, 06:00:14 PM
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Hi. I've just moved to demon Broadband up to 8MB from AOL's 1MB service. BT made the transfer early Friday morning (I was up at 6:00am and it was done), I had connected with Demon by mid day Friday but am yet to see any change in my raw download speed, it does not seem to fluctuate up or down much at all....its hardly like the line is being tested. It been between 3.5-4 days and as I say, still similar raw download speeds as the 1MB line (115 kb per second)
ADSL guide speed tests and BTw's are giving around about:-
Downstream 924.8 Kbps ( = 0.9 Mbps )
Upstream 241.9 Kbps ( = 0.2 Mbps )
Does it normally take more than 4 days before there is any noticeable change, it does not seem like the line is being tested
I'm a little concerned that after purchasing the up to 8MB service I'm still only going to be able to get the same speed I had before (despite BT's availability check telling me I would be up to 4.5MB or 8MB -depending on if I inputted phone number or postcode etc)
Should I be worried?
Has anyone had similar problems?
Anything I can do?
I've had a look on this forum but not found a clear answer I'm afraid
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Hi and welcome to the forums :)
It took 5 days before my bRAS profile was lifted and I saw the "8Mb" speeds.
BTw wont accept any speed related issues from your ISP until the full 10 days has passed.
However, before jumping to conclusions here it may be an idea to check if you have been migrated on to MAX or if a *like for like* migration has occured.
What speed are you syncing to the exchange at?
How to get your line stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.htm).
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I hope this means more to you. I think this means it is not maxxed yet? am I right
ADSL Internet Settings
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 1152 288
Noise margin 29.5 27.0
Output power 18.3 11.8
Attenuation 45.5 22.5
What shoul I be doing next. Your responses are much appreciated :)
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are those good of bad noise margins?
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updated my wireless rotuers firmware and my noise margin has gone down to 27 ;D
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Hiyas
>> Data rate 1152 288
You are still on a 1Mb connection, so it would seem that Demon didnt do a simultaneous migration and regrade. Some ISPs put the speed regrade through separately, in which case it may take another 5 days. Youre best checking with demon to make sure they havent forgotten.
>> are those good of bad noise margins?
>> Attenuation 45.5
Umm...
The BTw rules state that any line with an attenuation figure of over 42dB cant have more than 1Mb.
HOWEVER..
>> Noise margin 29.5
Your SNR Margin is exceedingly good considering your attentuation so you have plenty of leaway there.
Saffy's Maxdsl guestimator is down atm, but based on those figures a rough estimate is you should get in the region of 4.5 - 5Mb on Max.
You do have to bear in mind that it will depend entirely on how much your SNR Margin fluctuates during the day/evening.. its quite common for your SNR Margin to fluctuate /reduce during the evenings.
>>> updated my wireless rotuers firmware and my noise margin has gone down to 27
Possibly a normal evening fluctuation?
As previously mentioned SNR Margins can fluctuate.. the higher your SNR Margin the better.
The lower your attenuation the better, but attenuation should remain static.
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> The BTw rules state that any line with an attenuation figure of over 42dB cant have more than 1Mb
psst.. that's the rule for fixed rate 2Mb... 1Mb is 60dB ;)
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Kitz....do you mean by your estimate that I will get 4.5 - 5Mb as my actual connection, or do you mean that the highest I could hope for?
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I've just spoke to Demon and after a bit of pulling teeth (They oringinally thought I wasnt a new customer and I was ringing to ask why my free upgrade hadnt happened yet - they were telling me all customers are been upgrade and everyone is being upgraded randomly and they will all be upgraded by the end of december! After 5hitting myself I told her I'm a new customer, are you talking about new customers becuase I was told my line would be 8Mb immediatly!)
Anyway, after the confusion they put me on hold and have had some chats with BT, they agree I am still on the same spped line I was before with AOL, however the bandwidth has not yet been updated by BT...... i thought the idea was the migration to a new ISP would be times to allign with when BT schedule the bandwitdth update!
Anyway, demomn have told me that BT have reported back they should have the bandwidth updated by/on Thursday the 5th and I should do a speed test on the 6th.
So I will wait until then, and hopefully all things will be sorted. But I wonder why the migration and regrade dates are different.
What do you guys think? Does everything I've said sound truthul, or am I being fobbed of with the same story they give everyone (pointing the finger at BT before checking for there own faults)?
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Sounds ok to me, if a little inconvenient both for you and Demon.
As kitz has already said, it's possible for an ISP to place a simultaneous migrate and regrade order, which means they can change your speed during the migration. It looks like Demon haven't done that. Doesn't surprise me really, because they're usually quite slow on the uptake of new stuff.
It sounds reasonable that if they've now placed what's known as a Modify order into eCo (the BT systems that ISPs can talk to), then your order should be done tonight, and your router will start connecting at a higher speed. You should see a faster upload speed immediately.
However, don't be surprised if you don't start seeing the new faster download speeds until at least 3 days, sometimes up to 10 days, after you are Maxed. This I think would be applicable even if you'd been done on the simultaneous migrate/regrade path.
So them telling you to do a speedtest on Friday is a little optimistic, IMO. Don't be disheartened if you don't see faster speeds until well into next week - it might even be the weekend after.
Of course it might happen a lot sooner, fingers crossed for you :)
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And with those line stats as they currently are, as long as your SNR doesn't fluctuate too much, I'd go with kitz on that approximation - 4.5 - 5Mb is what you could hope to see on Max. Depending on the lowest sync rate you achieve, that might settle down to a real speed of around 3.5Mbps tops, which is still none too shabby.
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> The BTw rules state that any line with an attenuation figure of over 42dB cant have more than 1Mb
psst.. that's the rule for fixed rate 2Mb... 1Mb is 60dB ;)
ummm.. Im functioning on only 3 hours sleep here and my brain is really fuddled..
But its 0-42 dB for 2Mbps ???
david has 45dB.. therefore only 1Mb... or am I missing something really obvious? ???
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Kitz....do you mean by your estimate that I will get 4.5 - 5Mb as my actual connection, or do you mean that the highest I could hope for?
Its a very rough estimation of what sync speeds you may expect to see when on max.
Depending on how much your SNR Margin fluctuates that will set your data rate profile for throughput.
Also remember... BT let contention become a lot more obvious when on max at peak times.
Mr_Saffron had an estimator which you used to be able to put in your line stats and it would give you an estimate, but it seems to be down atm :/
http://212.23.23.177/calc.htm
I think chris has covered the rest of the stuff :)
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ummm.. Im functioning on only 3 hours sleep here and my brain is really fuddled..
But its 0-42 dB for 2Mbps ???
david has 45dB.. therefore only 1Mb... or am I missing something really obvious? ???
Whoops! Chris is in trouble with the boss. >:D
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naw... hes normally pretty good at picking up any obvious errors.
Thats why I read, re-read, read again.. and again for about 10 times.. thinking... have I missed sommat... and was still unsure.
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/me holds hands up... oops my turn to misread something :(
Sorry for confuddling you kitz!
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Cheers guys, all really good advice you offer on here. I'll just have to play the waiting game now. when my line does get sorted by BT and I am max dsl I believe that is when my 10 day speed setting period will start.
Just as a bit of info, what is the normal trend, does the inital connect speed get cranked up over then 10 days and generally you finish with higher than you first connect with. Does it fluctuate up and down until it settles, or does it tend to remain fairly constant?
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Your line will sync as fast as it can fronm day 1.
If you get frequent dosconnections, your SNR may increase and sync rate may go down.
The data rate, which is the top download speed you'll see, is controlled by the BT "BRAS Profile", this will stay at 1Mb and should suddenly jump up to approx 0.5Mb under the lowest sync speed you achieved within the previous 3 days.
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It sounds reasonable that if they've now placed what's known as a Modify order into eCo (the BT systems that ISPs can talk to), then your order should be done tonight, and your router will start connecting at a higher speed. You should see a faster upload speed immediately.
However, don't be surprised if you don't start seeing the new faster download speeds until at least 3 days, sometimes up to 10 days, after you are Maxed. This I think would be applicable even if you'd been done on the simultaneous migrate/regrade path.
My Upload speed still hasnt changed over the last two day, all is still the same. Hopefully do the regrade on the line sometime today
my line stats now (1100 AM - attenuation down, noise margin slightly down)
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 1152 288
Noise margin 28.7 27.0
Output power 17.3 11.8
Attenuation 42 22.5
line stats before (a few days ago at 10:45 PM)
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 1152 288
Noise margin 29.5 27.0
Output power 18.3 11.8
Attenuation 45.5 22.5
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Given your noise margin is looking nice and stable now, you should be in for a decent Max experience :)
Fingers crossed the regrade is done soon. They normally happen overnight, though.
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afaik... Theres 2 ways which an ISP can submit to BT for a speed regrade with max.
1) This way seems to get done overnight, this is if the ISP submits it manually using the modify order through ECO.
2) Then theres the automated proceedure, where the ISP submits the automated max regrades to BT via an xml list.
This seems to take BT a full 5 working days.
Theres restrictions on the number of both that the ISP can submit to BT.
1) Because of the time it takes the ISP to manually input the details (man hours).
2) BT limit the amount of auto upgrades that the ISP can process per day.
Most max regrades are done using method 2.
Theres a way that you may be able to check to see if a regrade has been processed for your line.
How to check your adsl order status (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/order.htm).
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Given your noise margin is looking nice and stable now, you should be in for a decent Max experience :)
Fingers crossed the regrade is done soon. They normally happen overnight, though.
From the sounds of what had been said, it certainly sounded like they would have put a modify order through... so perhaps theyve just put it on the automated regrade list?
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You would have hoped so. Maybe they're just using the old ordering system which takes a week? I really don't know.
Are demon regrading all their customers to 8Mb? If not, I wouldn't have thought they'd have that much of a backlog of orders. Ho hum.
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still not been regraded anyway. They had told me it would be yesterday. I didnt get the impressin they had forgot to put the regrade throught when my ISP was switched so yesterday should have been the 5th day I guess.....unless they had only put it through when I rang them last (wednesday)
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Hi david..
did you check see if you could get your order status from the link I gave above.
It may tell you which day the regrade is due to go through.
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tried the first online method and there was nothing in there scheduled to be done (but it did say theability to see bills at least would take 24 hours to set up)
Tried the phone number and that said there is nothing scheduled for my number :(
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starting to get frustrated now! rang Demon now they are open and they say my line has been regraded ..... it says so on the BT system so they are now asking me to contact there Tech support to try a few things to improve my speed
My line stats are still the same as they were before i.e.
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 1152 288
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ok now spoke to tech support after a couple of minutes of them examining the database for my details they confirmed that my line hadnt yet been regraded!!!!! (contory to to what the broadband specialist guy had said) however she can not tell me why it hasnt, and when it will be done becuase that as the "provisioning department" and they are closed until monday.
I need to ring them monday, so it will be 10+ days after moving to this ISP that my line may eventually get regraded, then it will be another 10 setting my B-Ras thingy
Why did the broadband techie not listen to me when I told him severla time my downstram speed is "288" which shows a 1MB line, and a maxxed/regraded line wold be higher!
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Sorry to hear that.
I guess you need to be insistent that your regrade order gets put in on Monday. By the way, it doesn't cost the ISP anything to regrade you up to Max, so there's no reason at all why they shouldn't do it.
With any luck, once your regrade does go through, your line rate will increase quicker than 10 days :)
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grrr :/
Hopefully though now youve subscribed to the bt billing thingy, you will be able to check if/when they have put an order through, so you can keep tabs on them.
iirc it takes a few hours though from the ISP submitting before it shows up on the bt checker.
.. and I think it only shows on there if its done through the xml (regrade) upgrade process. (the one where it takes 5 working days).
If its done as a modify order (when its done overnight) then it doesnt always show.
btw, checked with one of the CS reps from my own ISP about the 2 different upgrade processes, and yes there are.
The regrade route is the one apparantly preferred by BTw and the ISPs.
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So can i ask for a modify order from the isp so it gets done overnight. Though i understand they wont have to honor my request & they have limits on how many they can request this way?
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Yep I believe so.
However, there may well be only certain staff that have direct access to the modify system via ECO though.
Hence why most regrades possibly go through on the xml regrade process where it takes BT 5 days.
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I rang demon Broadband provisioning department this morning and as per my regust they have put through for my line to be regraded via the 24hr ECO method. They say the reason why my line had not been regraded was becuase it was missed on the BT system (or something to that effect)
Been on the bt site, and used the order checker thats detailed on this site. There is now something in there which is a good sign seems they have been true to there word. Hopefully I will be enjoying the ADSL max experience soon.
Order ref Placed Description We can do this on: We agreed to deliver by:
ZZH426LC 09 Oct 2006 CHANGE 10 Oct 2006 10 Oct 2006 View detail
detail......
Order reference ZZH426LC
Placed 09 Oct 2006
Description CHANGE
Appointment No date yet
Date due 10 Oct 2006
Status In progress
Last update 09 Oct 2006
Latest update Your order is in progress.
Items in this order
Description Item Quantity Cost Rental
PROVIDE BT IPSTREAM MAX 1 ? 0.0 ? 0.0
CEASE (ADSL) BT IPSTREAM HOME 1000 1 ? 0.0 ? 0.0
PROVIDE REGRADE ADSL 1 ? 0.0 ? 0.0
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We can do this on: 10 Oct 2006
Good... looks at set now. :)
Will probably happen during the wee small hours - around 1.00 - 2.30 am is when they normally get done.
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woohoo ;D
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My line has now been maxed ;D
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 6464 448
Noise margin 7.9 23.0
Output power 19.8 12.3
Attenuation 42 22
before.....
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 1152 288
Noise margin 28.7 27.0
Output power 17.3 11.8
Attenuation 42 22.5
My nose margin seem to have gone down quite alot :( is this normal?
the adslguide speedtest put me at about a 4.9Mbps line at the current state of play.
Over the 10 day bras setting period does the line speed tend to rise or reduce? I downloaded a file or two this monring with my download accelerating programme and transfer speeds fluctuated largely between 220 kb/sec and 580 kb/sec.........I do understand my bras has not been set and adslMax is less consistant than normal adsl.
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The lower noise margin is quite normal - as the sync speed increases, so the noise margin decreases. By default, Max syncs at the best speed it can achieve for a noise margin of 6dB.
The line speed isn't controlled by the bRAS profile. The modem/router will always sync at the best speed it can. However your actual download speed will be limited by the bRAS profile. The profile is continuously reevaluated and reset if necessary to a value determined by your lowest sync speed over the preceding three days (except that blip logic tries to avoid a reduction in profile from a single short-term reduction in sync speed).
Eric
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Yep looks about right.. when I first got maxed my SNR Margin dropped from 31dB down to about 10dB.
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So is my noise margin good now or not?
I dont undestand what you mean. Are data rate and sync speed the same thing? If they are does that not mean my router thats is syncing at max at 6464 and can not and will not go up into the 8000's
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Hi
With max your SNR margin is lower than what it would be on *traditional* adsl.
Remember that SNR Margin can and does fluctuate during the day/night.. therefore the DLM allows you to sync at the highest speed you can, whilst still giving you a margin for fluctuations etc.
Sync speed is what your router is connecting to the exchange at.
data rate is more to do with actual data throughput speed.
Theres an explanation of how it works which may help you understand things a bit better.
How dslMAX works (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm)
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What would you recommend I should do over the next 10 days? I've heard it's best to turn your router off and on every once in a while and to try to use the connection in the quiter times (mornings and afternoons) moreso over eveninngs and night time.
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I think today is my third day of ADSL Max training so my line should be getting stable I guess. My Noise Margin reduces to as low as 6.2 in the evenings moreso when connected at a higher data rate around 7100. However in evenings the data rate does tend to drop to 6100-6600 and the nosise margin comes back up around 7-8. Speed tests at these time can indicate a line as low as 1.3MB.
In the mornings or late at night the noise margin is usually 7.2 or more and the data rate 6600 to 7200.
I've been turning my router off and on once in the morning when I have woke up at 7:00am.... often find the data rate is around 6600 but after switching on and off it typically then connects at 7100 ish.
How interleaving has however been turned on the last few days. I need to ask your guys opinions on this- I play a few online games, is it likely that interleaving is going to cause lag in my gaming experience. I may ask the ISP to turn it off.
Any tips on getting the best out of my line, or what kind of line you think I will have after my 10day training and the margins/bRas etc are set would be much appreciated
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A noise margin of around 6dB is what it should be, and it will vary a bit over the 24 hours. If interleaving has been turned on that suggests that the router has been losing sync several times overnight (when noise margins commonly plummet). Interleaving will help to stabilise the connection, but if it's still unstable you may find that the target noise margin gets increased, with a corresponding reduction in sync speed.
To be honest, I don't think you are doing yourself any favours by switching the router off and on every morning. You are making it sync at a rather higher speed (because noise levels are lower than during the night), but in doing so you are making the connection less stable. It would be better (in my opinion) just to leave the router on and let it find its own stable level.
You can't draw too many conclusions from speed tests until the training period is over. Even then the speed will vary depending on things like exchange congestion, and maybe ISP traffic management. If download speeds are consistently below 2Mbps after the ten days, then you probably have a stuck bRAS profile and you will have to ask your ISP to get it unstuck.
I'm not a gamer, so I can't discuss latency from personal experience. But it's my view that an increase in latency of 20ms or so caused by interleaving should be pretty insignificant when compared with the much higher latency of human beings. I rather suspect that some gamers use this as an excuse for their performance, but maybe that's just my aging cynicism talking. :)
Eric
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I think I tend to agree with just about everything roseway has said.
Theres 2 schools of thought re leave it connected or reboot.
In most instances Id go with the "leave it to find its own level",
although I do appreciate that there may be times when a resync is called for.
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My 10 days as no passed.
Its lunchtime and my figures are
Type - Interleave
Downstream Upstream
Data rate 6944 448
Noise margin 7.5 23.0
Output power 19.8 12.2
Attenuation 42.0 22.0
adsl speed test puts my line at about 1.362 kbps ............. am I getting low results, should I ask for my Bras to be reset? sometimes my line even goes below 1000kbs at this minute which is what I wsa on pre-max
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If you're consistently syncing at over 6000 kbps then you should expect to get download speeds up to about 5000 (depending on network conditions at the time). If you are certain that you never get a much lower sync then it looks as though your bRAS profile may be stuck at 2000 or thereabouts. The usual advice in this situation is to wait a couple more days, then if it's still the same ask your ISP to get the profile unstuck.
Eric
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Hi guys. been meaning to get back on here in ages, but have not had chance tool. My 10 day line testing period was complete sometime ago and despite consistanly around 6400 I am still getting slow speeds. Of an evening I tend to have a 1-1.5MB line, this sometime drops below 1MB - nose markind are typically arount 6-7 at these times.
However today is the first time I've really got on in an afternoon, and mid day today (Thursday) I am still synchonising at 6400 and getting a 1-1.5MB line speed tho my noise markin is a respectable 9.5-10.5
Is this normal? do I have a stuck BRas or something.
I've contacted my ISP (Demon) and they have asked me to complete several speeds test at different times of day using http://www.kbps.co.uk and then to send them an email with the links to the reports.
If it shows poor results they will take the issue with BT.
Am I right in thinking I shoul be getting at least double the speed I am no in early afternoons? where do you think the problem lies?
AS always many thanks for your excellent support and knowledge.
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Yes, you should be getting much faster speeds (at least during quiet periods). Either you've got a stuck profile or your local exchange is subject to severe congestion. You can find out what your current IP profile is set at by going to http://speedtester.bt.com/ but you may well have to try several times before it lets you in. Be prepared for a wait of 2 or 3 minutes while it thinks. :(
Eric
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Hi
Try putting your phone number in on this site to check you exchange status... http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/?
Michael
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the BT test indicated
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 6432 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3184 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
I dont know how it achieve that throughput, all other speed test I am doing give me noe more than 1600kbps (at 10:00AM)
Using the plusnet tool its is showing my exchange details as "VP capacity at this exchange is currently showing as Red."
"BT is reporting that some of the virtual paths at this exchange are not operating within BT Wholesale's planning guidance, although they are still operating within the product specification.
At busy times, your ADSL connection may operate at a reduced speed, although not all customers on your exchange may be affected. You should only contact support if there is no current ETA date set.
The ETA fix time is: 18 Nov 06"
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Hello,
I have only gone on Broadband in the last month from dial-up ( which sometimes was as low as 9kbps !!) and my experience with these speed testers is that you get all different speeds, also the BT speed tester you can never get it to work.
My local exchange is showing the same as yours so I waiting until it's fixed to do any real speed checks.
Regards Michael.
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Yes, it looks as though you're the victim of congestion, David, and there's nothing you can do about that. The other possibility is that your ISP is throttling your connection for some reason (and maybe the BT test isn't subject to that throttling).
Eric
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Hi
Try putting your phone number in on this site to check you exchange status... http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/?
Michael
That 'exchange line status' is a joke - the ETA for fixing mine has been 9th October, 16th October, 23rd October, 30th October, 6th November, 13th November - now it's 30th November. Every time the date for fixing it passes, they just post a new one.
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That data comes directly from BT, so unfortunately it's them that keeps putting the date back. Due to the fact that BT must have changed the criteria for a red exchange and consequently over half of them went red a few weeks ago, I think they're struggling to keep up with due dates at the moment.
I'm not making excuses for BT, you understand!
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Hello
Our next door neighbour called out BT openreach (Broadband), so I took the opportunity to have a chat with the BT chap.
One thing I told him was about the local exchange being on red since October, I could not believe it when he said he did not know about that and he works and lives in this area as well.
From Michael.
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Red status doesn't necessarily indicate any large problem. My local exchange is red too, but my speeds haven't noticeably reduced. As Chris said above, it may just be that BT have changed the criteria. If you're getting a serious reduction in speed all through the day, that rather suggests that the problem could be elsewhere, perhaps in the ISP's traffic management?
Eric