Kitz Forum
Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: JGO on September 15, 2015, 09:06:34 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34174796
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I think it's because they don't know what they're doing in school teaching. I read somewhere that the 3 Rs were developed for the Empire because they were the skills needed to get a job in the Empire. You could teach a child the 3 Rs in New Zealand and they could get a job in Canada or India.
But now the Empire is gone, the 3 Rs are no longer the skills needed in today's job market but they are still the basis of the curriculum taught in school.
We need a fundamental rethink of what to teach in schools to train children to be employable in the 21st century. Computers will be a big part of this but not as they are used currently just to continue to teach out-of-date skills which are no longer required.
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I think it's because they don't know what they're doing in school teaching. I read somewhere that the 3 Rs were developed for the Empire because they were the skills needed to get a job in the Empire. You could teach a child the 3 Rs in New Zealand and they could get a job in Canada or India.
But now the Empire is gone, the 3 Rs are no longer the skills needed in today's job market but they are still the basis of the curriculum taught in school.
We need a fundamental rethink of what to teach in schools to train children to be employable in the 21st century. Computers will be a big part of this but not as they are used currently just to continue to teach out-of-date skills which are no longer required.
I'm sorry but I could not disagree more. The 3Rs are fundamental and the lack of basic maths reading and writing skills are the real problem in today's world. I watch with amusement when seeing what happens to particularly young people today when their batteries in the Iphones go flat or they cannot get a signal. Also the number of times my wife has remonstrated with a checkout operator when she disagrees with the till total and is proved correct because she can do mental arithmetic and it proves the operator scanned something twice or not at all (yes my wife is very honest ;) ).
I am also saddened by the huge amount of bad spelling and grammar and context there is today in both emails (and forum entries ;) ;) although I am not immune from that but it is because I am a lousy typist ;) ), and indeed publications.
I dont disagree that IT needs to be taught and used in schools but only after a good grounding in the 3Rs.
Stuart
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Also the number of times my wife has remonstrated with a checkout operator when she disagrees with the till total and is proved correct because she can do mental arithmetic and it proves the operator scanned something twice or not at all (yes my wife is very honest ;) ).
Now that's a useful skill, my Dad could do it too. He seemed to just add up the items mentally as they were added to the trolley and if his expected figure didn't match the charge, to the penny, he was almost invariably right. Seem to remember some supermarkets offered a discount for items that were wrongly priced, BoGofs and TwoFors that didn't register, he often got to claim it. Right up to when he passed away, in his late eighties. :)
Not always the best person to be stuck behind in the checkout queue, mind. :D
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Reading, maybe. But writing and maths, we have machines that replace those skills.
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I'm with Stuart on this. Arithmetic skills are essential in everyday life, and language skills are essential for clear, unambigous communication. Writing (as in pen and paper) probably is less important nowadays.
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The problem is, the 3Rs are currently underpinning the education system, yet as you have identified we already have people who can't add up or spell. I'm sure the majority have reading difficulty as well.
The 3Rs have already failed.
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Reading, maybe. But writing and maths, we have machines that replace those skills.
But often the underlying principles are still needed, especially when it comes out to sorting out problems caused by things like operator error through misunderstanding. For example banks ( used to) create complex interest arrangements. Sorting it out manually when error comes to light can be a b***** without that knowledge.
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I'm with Stuart on this. Arithmetic skills are essential in everyday life, and language skills are essential for clear, unambigous communication. Writing (as in pen and paper) probably is less important nowadays.
Agreed, yet from experience I know that some people can communicate quite effectively with ignorant grammar.
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The 3Rs have already failed.
One problem is that many people want to teach or be taught "Hard Facts" (also known as "Lies to Students" (c) Sir Terry Pratchett.) so no need to relearn anything ever !
I think computers can be invaluable for many teaching tasks, say, running a lot of trials to demonstrate say that 8 out of 10 on average doesn't mean 8 out of every 10.
(Lesson 1 in evolution ! )
Seeing things happen in front of you in accelerated time will get students to the "Ah !" moment much faster.
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The problem is, the 3Rs are currently underpinning the education system, yet as you have identified we already have people who can't add up or spell. I'm sure the majority have reading difficulty as well.
The 3Rs have already failed.
The problem is the way the 3R's are being taught not that they are irrelevant.
Stuart
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Sorry Dray, I fear we are ganging up on you. Don't take it personally. :)
Reading, maybe. But writing and maths, we have machines that replace those skills.
And these machines, for their continuous cycle of re-invention, depend upon people with... good mathematical skills.
Mathematics is also something that, as a nation, seems to almost blend into our genes, we're generally rather good at it. From the industrial revolution, railways, engines and bridges, to invention of computers... all were facilitated by British mathematical ingenuity.
One of my favourite tales evolves around the evolution of public key cryptography and RSA, without which we'd have no secure internet facilities. After years of research by now-famous academics mainly in the US, there were finally a series of breakthroughs leading to the concepts and tools now in common use, patents were awarded and duly announced them to the world. It was only much later, late 1990s, that our own GCHQ published the evidence that they had actually invented most of it a quite a few years earlier than the US researchers. But rather than seeking patents, the Brits had kept quiet about it. :)
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The problem is, the 3Rs are currently underpinning the education system, yet as you have identified we already have people who can't add up or spell. I'm sure the majority have reading difficulty as well.
The 3Rs have already failed.
I also have to agree with Stuart on this.
The 3R's are essential.
To reply to your quote, the 3R's have not failed but the teaching has.
To be fair this is often because of how the subjects are prescribed to be taught. :(
You need a basic set of skills that do not rely on 'machines' to cover for your 'Blind spots'.
How do you use the 'machines' if you cannot do the 'basic math', as the Americans would say, in your head.
I have seen people use the 'machines' to get the wrong answer because they have no way of knowing the roughly 'right' answer.
As my teachers used to say, "calculators are just a quicker way of getting the wrong answer if you do not know the basic techniques".
Yes you are true, the reading skills are getting worse as well.
Just witness the usual mayhem on forums when people misread/misunderstand an extended argument because they cannot comprehend anything longer than a tweet.
Not to mention the TL;DR mentality. :( >:(
Not all statements can be made briefly, without losing the fine nuances & important facts of the argument.
Simplification *can* change what you say and make your argument invalid by dint of omission.
Language is being changed by these attitudes and the ability to communicate is being dumbed down.
This is not just my opinion but is actively being monitored by many groups.
i.e. OED has to now include txt speak and other contractions of language.
[Yet another Hobby Horse ..... I will need a bigger stable soon ;D ;D :D ]
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We need a fundamental rethink of what to teach in schools to train children to be employable in the 21st century. Computers will be a big part of this but not as they are used currently just to continue to teach out-of-date skills which are no longer required.
This idea has been bought up, many a time and oft.
This sentiment is valid but the end result would be a disaster.
You would have 'vocational' schools that are producing people that are 'keyboard' savvy but would not have the width of knowledge that you need to function in a meaningful and fulfilling world.
You would be producing the modern equivalent of the 'factory' workers or 'Coal miners' of soot encrusted old 19th century Northern towns / cities.
You would be consigning people to their fate because you could not be bothered to educate them better.
Everyone should be able to get the best education possible.
This means that the Teaching profession should be given a bit more respect and more importantly resourced to enable the 'better' education.
Teaching is not a profession that is respected by the state or society any more.
Most people realise too late what they have missed, when they find that they do not have the skills needed in a modern job market.
What is needed is for all the ideas that are regularly 're-cycled' to be examined to see which actual work.
From a teachers perspective the 'rules' are changed every 2-3 years, usually the ideas are from the same 'pot'.
Set 'B' ideas are rejected this year then 3 years down the road Set 'B' ideas are now rediscovered and are the new 'Emperors clothes'...... repeat until bored, retired or dead.
A bit less political 'footballing' and a longer term focus on ideas to give then time to 'bed-in' would help enormously.
There is no simple solution but changing tack every new parliament or change of political flag is game-playing not solving the problem in the long term.
[I must admit that I am influenced by seeing the 'other side' of the problem.
i.e. my Sister was a Teacher/Head Teacher for 30 years and I have seen the change in the job and the focus from each government.
The changes are driven purely by 'Political cant' and not the best interests of your children.]
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I am very much with Stuart on this.
The poor spelling and scary punctuation visible on the web shows that schools aren't succeeding in the basics, although spelling is something that some individuals like my sister just can't seem to grasp and in her case using computers has maid things a hole lot worse.
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has maid things a hole lot worse.
:lol: ;)
Stuart
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Very apt ;D
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That's the kind of help Microsoft Word is giving her, as she churns out CVs and covering letters containing that kind of stuff.
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Anyone who relies on primary schools in England to teach their kids basic literacy and numeracy is either hopelessly naive or very stupid. If you don't teach them how to read/write/times tables yourself then they will rapidly find themselves 2-3 years behind their European peers.
While I'm sure there are some decent primary school teachers, I have yet to meet one. Most of the teachers our kids had in primary school (2000-2009) couldn't spell themselves and in terms of maths - well all I can assume is that its optional in primary teacher training because I'd class several of them as functionally innumerate. Oh and this was in a school classed as above average in Ofsted reports in a fairly wealthy area.
The standard in secondary schools is much better but by the time the kids have been subjected to 7 years of English primary education most of them require remedial classes to bring them anywhere close to where they should be for their age group. This has a serious knock-on effect on English universities, especially in engineering courses as 3 years is considered inadequate by most countries for engineering competence - and that's assuming the undergrads can actually do the required maths in year 1, which most can't. Hence you end up with extremely poor engineering graduates who are typically unable to undertake the work required of them by employers for anything up to 2 years after graduation.
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Anyone who relies on primary schools in England to teach their kids basic literacy and numeracy is either hopelessly naive or very stupid. If you don't teach them how to read/write/times tables yourself then they will rapidly find themselves 2-3 years behind their European peers.
Agree .... no counter argument possible.
While I'm sure there are some decent primary school teachers, I have yet to meet one. Most of the teachers our kids had in primary school (2000-2009) couldn't spell themselves and in terms of maths - well all I can assume is that its optional in primary teacher training because I'd class several of them as functionally innumerate. Oh and this was in a school classed as above average in Ofsted reports in a fairly wealthy area.
Agree to a point: Yet again the problem is Teachers being forced to follow curricula that are more to do with fashion than real educational merit.
Personally, I was at least 1 year ahead of the level that was being taught at Secondary School.
The problem was the Secondary School forced anyone who was ahead to basically 'tread water' while the rest of the year caught up.
Secondary School was not a pleasant experience for me, as my enthusiasm was killed off by that 1st year.
Never really recovered.
The standard in secondary schools is much better but by the time the kids have been subjected to 7 years of English primary education most of them require remedial classes to bring them anywhere close to where they should be for their age group. This has a serious knock-on effect on English universities, especially in engineering courses as 3 years is considered inadequate by most countries for engineering competence - and that's assuming the undergrads can actually do the required maths in year 1, which most can't. Hence you end up with extremely poor engineering graduates who are typically unable to undertake the work required of them by employers for anything up to 2 years after graduation.
Fair point and a problem across many subject areas.
This was not always the case, when I and my Sister went to Secondary School the standard of the pupils was much higher than the standard I see today.
The knowledge obtained covered a wider area and covered basic skills in using your knowledge better.
[This was in a pre-Internet age where what you knew counted more]
Current pupils are asked to cover too many subjects, which by necessity reduces the depth covered.
Although they appear to cover many more subjects, basic problem solving skills appear to be worse.
The graduates produced when these pupils go into further education seem to be less capable that many graduates of old.
Maybe they are being stretched too far, too early and expectations are now being set unfairly but I can only comment on what I have experienced working with *some* new graduates.
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Absolutely IMO, should the 3R's be taught as a fundamental skill. This generation particularly, but also the one before, are seriously lacking in these areas. :no:
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Absolutely IMO, should the 3R's be taught as a fundamental skill. This generation particularly, but also the one before, are seriously lacking in these areas. :no:
I know WHO you are !!! ....... obvious.
On the basis of your comments about Two generations, I can only surmise that you have 'Two hearts' and 'Gallifrey' means something to you.
[Explains the longevity!! ;D]
BTW: Very clever/convenient that you work for BT as the 'Blue Police Phone Box' can be more easily explained away as a memento of the GPO of old. :D :D
or
Maybe I misunderstood. ;D ::)
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Ha ha ...... I'm many things to many people, but I am not a General Practitioner. ;)
A generation is assumed to be 20-25yrs as far as I'm aware ...... so it doesn't make me that old !! ;D ;D
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Ooops!
Slight miscalculation on the generation front then :D :D ;)
Don't worry I was NOT implying you were old.
I am older than I look and less than I feel. ;D
[Dorian loaned me an 'interesting' picture, some time ago] ::)
Age only matters to other people, not to me.
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'Tis but a number.
I think it's widely recognised that although the body matures and begins to slowly break down, one is still only 18 up in one's napper !! ;D ;D I know I am.
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'Tis but a number.
I think it's widely recognised that although the body matures and begins to slowly break down, one is still only 18 up in one's napper !! ;D ;D I know I am.
It gets worse as you descend: time you're half way to the tootsies. I'll leave it there. :-X :o ;)
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I keep telling people I'm 44 but I omit to tell them I count in hexadecimal ;) ;) Used to play darts at work and count in hex as well, that confuses the hell out of poeple in the pub when you say you need double 10 :)
Stuart
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I keep telling people I'm 44 but I omit to tell them I count in hexadecimal ;) ;) Used to play darts at work and count in hex as well, that confuses the hell out of poeple in the pub when you say you need double 10 :)
Stuart
And as I'm sure you'll know, and will have heard countless (in any base) times before, there are only 10 types of people in the world?
Punch line left to the imagination, but easily found on google for anybody who's not heard it. As if. :)