Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: Black Sheep on September 11, 2015, 10:00:20 AM
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I've been pondering on whether to post this or not, due to the 'Attack dogs' that will pounce all over it. I have to say, I'm neutral about it at the moment because it's only just being rolled-out and initially only with BOOST jobs, but will extend to SFI/NGA in time.
It's basically a new 'Health indicator' that will be given to the engineer upon picking up a task on his laptop/i-Phone. We will now see either a green or a red indicator telling us the 'health' of the circuit in regards to speed, errors etc.
We will still visit site and do the PQT, Close-out and Eclipse tests, but we will NOT intervene in the network if the indicator is set to green and all tests pass.
This is a new technology and it has been brought about from 'Extensive research".
Now then, we're not daft on this forum ....... we know there will always be anomalies (HR's etc), but this is a heads-up to the EU's who expect OR to spend long hours trying to scratch another 0.5meg out of their 67Meg connection. Or, the usual low-speed fault that regularly turns out to be the EU's devices. ;) :) :)
As mooted, this is a new offering to we engineers and I'll give it time to bed in and compare my findings, before passing comment.
Admin - slight edit to topic title.
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Thanks for sharing that. Most of us are grateful for these insights.
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I've been pondering on whether to post this or not, due to the 'Attack dogs' that will pounce all over it.
I'm certain that far more people appreciate information that you pass on, than there are that use it to have a dig at BT. I'm one of the former.
I get where youre coming from, I've seen it myself re g.inp when I was trying to give out info. On one hand it was, well its not official, then you try bleeding hard to get something official and its 'oh thats nothing new'. Bangs head on desk because of course its not new, we were saying it here before just unofficially. Can't win sometimes :/
Anyhow, just wanted to say that there are many of us who are very interested on what's going on.
a new 'Health indicator' that will be given to the engineer upon picking up a task on his laptop/i-Phone. We will now see either a green or a red indicator telling us the 'health' of the circuit in regards to speed, errors etc.
Do you by any chance know what the health indicator is based on?
I'm thinking of those types of lines which have happily sync'd at 80/20 for years yet could develop some fault and speeds dip to say 65Mbps. So for example on my own line, would this still pass as green simply because it would be within the estimated speed range of 62.5Mbps [Clean] 51.5Mbps [Impacted] figures that comes from the BTw estimated speed range. Or is it clever than that and will look at past history?
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Is this related to the "Line Test OK" (LTOK) developments, of which there was this graph from the publicly available ISP Forum slides from April on the btwholesale website?
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. . . it's only just being rolled-out and initially only with BOOST jobs, but will extend to SFI/NGA in time.
It's basically a new 'Health indicator' that will be given to the engineer upon picking up a task on his laptop/i-Phone. We will now see either a green or a red indicator telling us the 'health' of the circuit in regards to speed, errors etc.
Thank you for providing that information. Hopefully, with time, you will also be able to provide updates as to its reliability. :)
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This would be absolutely useless in my situation as the checkmark would be green each and every time and nothing would ever be done.
It just makes me more likely to email the CEO of Openreach.
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Thanks for the feedback, and appreciation of the fact that new technologies will always be tried out ..... whether they work or not is another matter. ;)
Alas, there is no in-depth info as to what parameters are being used to collate the data, but I would imagine it's the same stuff as you guys peruse on MDWS, or at least the big four ...... attenuation, SNR, speed, errors ...... ??.
As I've already commented, it's purely BOOST tasks thus far, but OR have been working closely with the CP's so it will be incorporated into SFI/NGA tasks eventually. If the CP does not provide enough data ..... then rather than an 'Indicator' there will be some kind of 'Guidance' in its place.
It is as Kitz suggests, the EU may demand more speed but if the indicator is set to Green, then <quote> 'the speeds they are achieving are above the national average'.
The folk involved in this have obviously put a lot of time into it, so if the naysayers write it off instantly as another conspiracy theory that OR are using it to complete more jobs to meet Ofcom targets, well ........ it won't be anything new. ;) ::) :)
I shall still refer judgement though, until I and my fellow brethren can compare real-life testing against remote historical data collation.
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This would be absolutely useless in my situation as the checkmark would be green each and every time and nothing would ever be done.
It just makes me more likely to email the CEO of Openreach.
I'm sure he'll be looking forward to your correspondence, Alec. :)
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I think my concern over this is just the problem where the end user may be getting well over the average UK speed BUT prior to the call they were getting even more above average and suddenly not. In my view comparisons to UK average speeds is not correct, a sudden drop of a significant amount must be investigated irrespective of what they now get compared to UK average speed. Just saying 'you're above average even now' is simply not acceptable.
Stuart
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Stuart ............... as mooted, the software will be looking at historic speeds, amongst other parameters, ergo a severe drop would likely show as red ?.
There's no conspiracy. ;D
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But that wouldn't help if your line, wiring or environment has always been bad, so that your low speed is the same low speed you were getting in the past.
Isn't a boost visit some kind of special visit, always paid for by the CP, aimed at improving the speed, rather than fixing some fault? Surely there's no point in doing a boost visit then, if the indicator is already green.
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@Black Sheep
I hope it is Historic and not just whether you are within your estimated speed bounds.
When I had a HR fault the estimates changed so my new speed was 'within estimates'.
Historic would of shown that this was not indicative of what the line had been doing.
It will be interesting to find out how you find this works in reality and whether it helps you or hinders your job ;D
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Just stick with that JDSU BS and find those HR fault's don't even bother with a line health indicator Tony has already had a (DLM) line indicator up and running on MDWS for months ;)
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:D :D
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To be serious this new line health indicator would need previous history and current history from the end-users line i am not sure the DLM database holds so much data for each line line in the UK there has to be what's called a data limit for each end-users line.
I guess it could hold upto 3 to 5 years worth of stats for each end-users but it won't look like Roseways stats or Bald_Eagle1 stats it will be BT OR stats ::)
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thanks BS is indeed useful info, so e.g. when an engineer visits we can ask him to show us this data or if he has checked it. :)
Any idea if the threshold for red is different to DLM thresholds?
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I think my concern over this is just the problem where the end user may be getting well over the average UK speed BUT prior to the call they were getting even more above average and suddenly not. In my view comparisons to UK average speeds is not correct, a sudden drop of a significant amount must be investigated irrespective of what they now get compared to UK average speed. Just saying 'you're above average even now' is simply not acceptable.
Stuart
This is correct which raises another question, will GEA failures still count as a failed test?
e.g. if >25% of sync speed is lost in a short time period a line will auto fail the GEA test "REGARDLESS" of what the sync speed and error rate is.
My guess is for a line to be RED it is probably going to have to be in quite a bad state as its probably set very conservatively to keep costs down for openreach. I also wonder if the RED/GREEN is just a quick way for engineers to check GEA status, so GREEN means GEA is passed?
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To be serious this new line health indicator would need previous history and current history from the end-users line i am not sure the DLM database holds so much data for each line line in the UK there has to be what's called a data limit for each end-users line.
I guess it could hold upto 3 to 5 years worth of stats for each end-users but it won't look like Roseways stats or Bald_Eagle1 stats it will be BT OR stats ::)
Your idea makes too much sense.
I thank BS for the information is much appreciated but like most changes to openreach SFI conditions, it is designed as a way to stop CP's and end users pushing for openreach to carry out work on a line.
e.g. my belief has always been openreach should "prove" a drop in speed is due to crosstalk rather than "assuming" it is, and some may remember I posted a while back there needs to be some kind of service which guarantees all physical aspects of the line get checked on a visit regardless if a JDSU passes or not, but of course openreach dont want to pay engineers to spend hours on each callout (and probably also CPs want to pay openreach as little as possible) so this is the situation we have. I would expect it be easy to cross reference the history of a line and check the installation database to see if the time matches any new installations in the area if yes, then is evidence its crosstalk caused, if no, start an investigation.
So I see both sides, it must be frustrating to deal with people who e.g. have triggered a call out for a loss of say 2% of sync speed, but it works both ways it be frustrating for customers to be lied to by engineers and their isp to brush off faults. e.g. I had an engineer tell me the BT wholesale supplied speed estimate was complete rubbish and that speed was for those next to the cabinet (so he claimed the max possible sync speed on my cabinet is 72mbit at 0m distance with no crosstalk), he was been a bit aggressive so I didnt push it with him. Shame not all engineers are not like my install engineer, but even the better engineers will get in trouble if they do work when they not supposed to, as my engineer backs up what BS has said that if tests pass then they supposed to walk.
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But that wouldn't help if your line, wiring or environment has always been bad, so that your low speed is the same low speed you were getting in the past.
Isn't a boost visit some kind of special visit, always paid for by the CP, aimed at improving the speed, rather than fixing some fault? Surely there's no point in doing a boost visit then, if the indicator is already green.
As pointed out previously, the speed will be compared against the national average for a given attenuation ..... so it will help. :)
The only difference with a 'Boost' visit and its sister 'SFI' visit, is that we can do a Hub swap if the original is proven faulty. Nothing special.
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thanks BS is indeed useful info, so e.g. when an engineer visits we can ask him to show us this data or if he has checked it. :)
Any idea if the threshold for red is different to DLM thresholds?
Chrys, we won't be privy to the data .............. we will get a 'Green' or a 'Red' indicator. IF all tests pass at the EU's premises AND we have a 'Green' indicator on the task. Then we close the job off. No network intervention will be done, that is all it is. :)
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Chrys ............... "some may remember I posted a while back there needs to be some kind of service which guarantees all physical aspects of the line get checked on a visit regardless if a JDSU passes or not, but of course openreach dont want to pay engineers to spend hours on each callout (and probably also CPs want to pay openreach as little as possible)"
A lovely thought, but business and financial suicide. It simply is not plausible.
The problem with forum posting is one tends to think of just their situation ..... can you imagine checking all physical aspects on a 200+ carrier pole installation, never mind the UG cable runs ?? We have just one like this on my patch, but in Scotland and Wales, it is common-place.
We have to provide a 'one-glove-fits-all' service, and one that has been agreed with the CP's and Ofcom. We have .... it is SIN 349. Coupled with 'DSL Close out tests' and 'Eclipse CIDT' tests ...... the vast majority of faults will be picked up via one of these tests.
I've said it before on here before, if you could see the actual information our tech-heads use and work with, your mind would be blown. The info on DLM alone, would have B*Cat, Kitz, 4Candles and JGO asking to leave the building. Openreach are part of a FTSE100 company, they know what they are doing ......... and I'm sure they appreciate any feedback on where EU's think they've got it wrong. ;) ;D
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I wonder if this is anything to do with the new BRAT (Brandenburg Rapid Analysis Tool) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#KBD) that BTw is/has released this year available as part of KBD.
I mentioned in another thread a several weeks ago that Ive been trying to get Plusnet to run one on my line, but Ive been told they cant run it because I have an open fault. The 'fault' I have open isnt really a line fault, but more to do with the fact that my line is one of those being monitored because the peak time slowness can be replicated. I know they did try to run it because it actually knocked me offline when it was attempted to run.
RRT has been available for a while for adsl2+ lines, although this data is collected by the element managers its not part of the DLM and information is stored in a separate RRT database.
The new BRAT version supposedly contains more depth analysis and is for NGA lines (FTTC)
This is an example of an adsl2+ line showing hourly sync speed and Err Secs, but it can be drilled down to view 15min slots.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FKBD_RRT.png&hash=1ba1a3cdaa928c6bc238cb8a0724f85955f70d34)
If BT are storing this data and making it available to the SPs, then it makes sense that some of or the same data could be used by the OR engineers?
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I've personally had access to BRAT for a few years now. Alas, only on ADSL profiles ...... it is not available on my GEA profile. :(
I would hazard a guess you are correct with regard to BRAT being used on BT classic circuits, but we have to rely upon the CP's own version of BRAT when looking at DSL fault history, (We request that they send over a data-pack).
BRAT has gotten better with age, it used to summarise all its findings as REIN in a lot of previous cases, but when the attenuation graph was perused it was obvious a HR was allowing in unwanted 'Noise' that BRAT hadn't picked up on.
Now though, it does for the most part recognise if there is a potential 'HR' or similar network issue, (wet joint etc).
You can never, ever achieve a better test than a man in a van turning up at your door and running thorough tests, but I have to admit that the graphing data available to us, is far better of late. :)
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You can never, ever achieve a better test than a man in a van turning up at your door and running thorough tests, but I have to admit that the graphing data available to us, is far better of late. :)
depends if it's a battle hardened BTOR man, a padawan 6 weeks out of college, or a kelly's cowboy :P
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I've personally had access to BRAT for a few years now. Alas, only on ADSL profiles ...... it is not available on my GEA profile. :(
I would hazard a guess you are correct with regard to BRAT being used on BT classic circuits, but we have to rely upon the CP's own version of BRAT when looking at DSL fault history, (We request that they send over a data-pack).
BRAT has gotten better with age, it used to summarise all its findings as REIN in a lot of previous cases, but when the attenuation graph was perused it was obvious a HR was allowing in unwanted 'Noise' that BRAT hadn't picked up on.
Now though, it does for the most part recognise if there is a potential 'HR' or similar network issue, (wet joint etc).
You can never, ever achieve a better test than a man in a van turning up at your door and running thorough tests, but I have to admit that the graphing data available to us, is far better of late. :)
There was supposed to be some big changes to BRAT starting Jan this year, including bringing in a more in-depth Brandenburg test for NGA which is why I was asking Plusnet to try do one on my line, so I could see what the new features look like when run on a live line.
For others that dont have access to BS's info, below is a screen cap of information provided by the 21CN version.. which I should imagine is what BS means about how it has improved. The aim is to bring this over to GEA-FTTC under the name of "Brandenburg NGA" and is supposed to be an enhancement of the existing NGA tests.. specifically to assist in the cause of a drop in speed of the circuit and to help pinpoint interference problems.
It was mentioned in their roadmap that they have plans for some change in Sep 2015, screen cap also below.. which is why I wondered if the line health indicator did have something to do with the new BRAT capability.
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You can never, ever achieve a better test than a man in a van turning up at your door and running thorough tests, but I have to admit that the graphing data available to us, is far better of late. :)
depends if it's a battle hardened BTOR man, a padawan 6 weeks out of college, or a kelly's cowboy :P
;) Cheers ;D
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I wonder if this is anything to do with the new BRAT (Brandenburg Rapid Analysis Tool) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#KBD) that BTw is/has released this year aI've personally had access to BRAT for a few years now. Alas, only on ADSL profiles ...... it is not available on my GEA profile. :(
I would hazard a guess you are correct with regard to BRAT being used on BT classic circuits, but we have to rely upon the CP's own version of BRAT when looking at DSL fault history, (We request that they send over a data-pack).
BRAT has gotten better with age, it used to summarise all its findings as REIN in a lot of previous cases, but when the attenuation graph was perused it was obvious a HR was allowing in unwanted 'Noise' that BRAT hadn't picked up on.
Now though, it does for the most part recognise if there is a potential 'HR' or similar network issue, (wet joint etc).
You can never, ever achieve a better test than a man in a van turning up at your door and running thorough tests, but I have to admit that the graphing data available to us, is far better of late. :)
There was supposed to be some big changes to BRAT starting Jan this year, including bringing in a more in-depth Brandenburg test for NGA which is why I was asking Plusnet to try do one on my line, so I could see what the new features look like when run on a live line.
For others that dont have access to BS's info, below is a screen cap of information provided by the 21CN version.. which I should imagine is what BS means about how it has improved. The aim is to bring this over to GEA-FTTC under the name of "Brandenburg NGA" and is supposed to be an enhancement of the existing NGA tests.. specifically to assist in the cause of a drop in speed of the circuit and to help pinpoint interference problems.
It was mentioned in their roadmap that they have plans for some change in Sep 2015, screen cap also below.. which is why I wondered if the line health indicator did have something to do with the new BRAT capability.
vailable as part of KBD.
I mentioned in another thread a several weeks ago that Ive been trying to get Plusnet to run one on my line, but Ive been told they cant run it because I have an open fault. The 'fault' I have open isnt really a line fault, but more to do with the fact that my line is one of those being monitored because the peak time slowness can be replicated. I know they did try to run it because it actually knocked me offline when it was attempted to run.
RRT has been available for a while for adsl2+ lines, although this data is collected by the element managers its not part of the DLM and information is stored in a separate RRT database.
The new BRAT version supposedly contains more depth analysis and is for NGA lines (FTTC)
This is an example of an adsl2+ line showing hourly sync speed and Err Secs, but it can be drilled down to view 15min slots.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FKBD_RRT.png&hash=1ba1a3cdaa928c6bc238cb8a0724f85955f70d34)
If BT are storing this data and making it available to the SPs, then it makes sense that some of or the same data could be used by the OR engineers?
kitz is this new info on your website for me to read? also is this info he posted on the mod section or something?
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kitz is this new info on your website for me to read?
No its there on the DLM page. I included a link to it in my post, but here it is again as a separate link
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#KBD
also is this info he posted on the mod section or something?
No not at all. It was me who brought up KBD.
It was me who expanded on the topic purely because I was already aware of BRAT and the impending changes this year... and I was wondering it the two were related. It was me who added the screenies which came from elsewhere simply because I thought others may not be aware of what is available from KBD. Its been in place for many years for adsl2+, just not many ISPs seem to use it.
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yep I found that already, but not the new one about the upcoming GEA stuff. I dont see that 2nd screenshot on the page.
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I'm lost, Im not sure what you mean?
Click on the image it shows as long as you click in the right place.
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"Kitz is this new info on your website for me to read? also is this info he posted on the mod section or something?"
Although there is some extremely informative stuff posted in the private section, this isn't one of them Chrys.
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I'm sure he'll be looking forward to your correspondence, Alec. :)
The CEO's team at Openreach are currently talking to TalkTalk's CEO team, whatever that means.
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Means they'll be having a jar down the 'The Ten Bells' in Spitalfields.
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I also have no idea what that means.
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Means they'll probably be having a pint, in a well-known pub in the Spitalfields area of London, and not even giving your circuit a seconds thought.
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I would like to think that emailing the CEO of Openreach would do more than that, thank you.
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If you think that the CEO actually receives e-mails from the general public, you should join them for a pint, Alec. :)
There is a department that deals with high-level escalations, but there has to be reasonable cause to accept that particular complaint.
I haven't read all your posts surrounding you issues, but seem to remember that the consensus of opinion was that there was very little, if anything, wrong with your line ?? Apologies if this is incorrect I haven't time to read everything in-depth.
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I got a reply back from Joe himself.
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I doubt that, Alec. It will have been somebody cap-badged to comment on his behalf. Joe doesn't know how to mend DSL circuits ..... he is a powerful CEO concerned with OR's contribution to BT's market share-price.
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Executive (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/aboutus/ourorganisation/ourexecutiveteam/executiveteam.do)team! Work out how many of that lot could climb a pole or delve a PCP like BS. ;D
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Ha ha ......... horses for courses though ...... I couldn't do what they do either. As an aside, I was chatting to one of those listed a couple of weeks ago, after I]d won a draw to visit BT Tower and have a 6-course lunch in the revolving restaurant with my missus.
Totally and utterly awesome !!! Sorry for going OT. :)
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Me thinks that none of them could.
Me also thinks that all this talk of the pubs and wind ups that someone has been at the wine.
Me finally thinks that since I have a heavy day tomorrow and am up at the crack of dawn that I may also pour myself a glass or two before heading off to bed.
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The finance man's stubble made me think, if BTOR was doing so badly that his bonus had been cut, and he could not afford razor blades! ::)
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"Kitz is this new info on your website for me to read? also is this info he posted on the mod section or something?"
Although there is some extremely informative stuff posted in the private section, this isn't one of them Chrys.
O_o
us peons dont get to know? please tell :)
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It's not called a 'Secret Club' for nothing, Chrys. If you don't know the funny hand-shake sequence, you're not getting in. ;) :)
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(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1012.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf244%2FFiercelyNormal%2Fsalute-o.gif&hash=704205f8ba2c1fa6fd05b57ca84c6b4c23ff44de)
So do I get in? :P
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Ha ha ....... no .......... in fact for your cheek, the 'attenuation fairy' will come round tonight and add 30dB to your downstream value. ;D ;D
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kitz claims there is nothing juicy in there.
Shame we have a community within a community.
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Openreach: because why fix problems when you can give excuses.
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Shame we have a community within a community.
The way BT Openreach works it's very secretive and if KITZ doe's get a whiff of info she will make 100% sure the info is correct before devolving this to the kitizens.
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kitz claims there is nothing juicy in there.
Shame we have a community within a community.
If that barb is aimed at Kitz, then it's out of order. If she has verified information which she is allowed to share, then she will share it. And as for BS, he goes beyond the call of duty to try to give us helpful information, and it seems that all he gets for his trouble is endless whinging about Openreach.
I'm really disappointed that this informative thread has become so degraded.
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Please stop this now. An informative thread has degenerated into rubbish.
The helpful tag was supposed to be in recognition for those who had been helpful to the site in some way. Most other forums have some form of tag in recognition of something they have done.
There is no community within a community. There are 8 or 9 people who have this tag. Its not anything I give out to people who ask, its something in recognition either for time served, useful posts or the likes of BTstaff. No-one is being left out.
There is no juicy private section. There's a total of about 10 threads mostly about moderation/spam issues or I might say if Im away. Again this is no different from anything other forums will have. There's not even a full page of threads, so that goes to show how little it is actually used considering its been around for about 8 years. There's an average of one person per year that may get the tag.
I'm annoyed that I should come home after a long day to feel pressurised to explain or justify something that is no different from any other forum. I could name several other forums that have a policy that if ask then you don't get. In all honesty I was considering adding another couple of names soon. The fuss over the past few days has deterred me from doing so because right now quite annoyed is an understatement.
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Ha ha ....... no .......... in fact for your cheek, the 'attenuation fairy' will come round tonight and add 30dB to your downstream value. ;D ;D
I would laugh but Openreach wants to add attenuation to my line, so this "joke" has backfired I am afraid.
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Thank you NS for understanding.
I do all I can to get info out there. I'm also quite dismayed about the g.inp stuff where I was dropping hints, then to get accused of it being rubbish because I couldn't name sources. So I went to a good deal of time & effort to get someone to publicly put their name to it.... and the response, oh that's nothing new. Of course some of it wasn't new because I may have been saying it in a different way, just unable to name names or sources. I feel I can't win, because it isnt easy to get info from BT. The one thing this site has always done is share what info can be shared. This dates way back to the early days and how BT backhauls and VPs work when there was nothing else out there anywhere.
I can also understand how BS feels, (Eric beat me to it), BS shares info here, but there has been a tendency of late for those threads to degenerate into a BT slanging match. Is it any wonder that people give up bothering trying to get info out there. Some people also fail to realise that if I ever printed or shared everything lock stock and barrel then those sources would dry up for good. Thats hardly of benefit to anyone. Keep pestering someone and they will begin to feel its just not worth the effort.
Can people not tell from the tone of BS post that he's also beginning to wonder why he bothers. The convo then moved on to BRAT (info that I got from another source) .. and suddenly because BS and I was having an open convo then it digresses into clandestine info which never was - Ive known about BRAT for years and am currently attempting to get up to date info regarding the new Brandenburg tool for GEA. This was already mentioned in another thread weeks ago, and when I do get something concrete then it will be shared.
As an aside, and although BS hasn't said so, (because we dont have mythical juicy convo's in pte sections), but to me it looks like sarcasm from someone who is fed up of the bitching and sniping... and thats not something I will stand for either.