Kitz Forum
Computer Software => Windows 10 => Topic started by: AArdvark on August 20, 2015, 08:39:41 PM
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MS have announced a new 'unified Microsoft services policy' which has been running from the start of this month. (Didn't hear that one!)
It covers Xbox, Bing, Cortana, OneDrive, Outlook.com, Skype and Xbox Live as far as I can tell.
All these things happen to 'spill' over onto your PC which is now running Win10. :o ::) ;) [MS: If it isn't it should be. You know it makes sense.]
Therefore if you combine the new 'Services Policy' with the new improved EULA you have no right to control anything according to MS.
I anticipated some movement, obviously I underestimated the drive the 'Scent of Money' would generate, it gives the right to control what s/w and h/w you are allowed to use to MS. (Where have I seen that idea before ??!! ::) )
Give a little bit of time and some subtle scope creep in the T's & C's and it is all over for Personal Computing as we know it.
Probably, on further thought, Subtle is not a word MS seem to know.
They are really running at full speed toward emulating Apple and their total control of their users.
If you have a slight feeling of uneasiness and can feel/hear a faint rustling/clinking noise .... it's just MS lightening your pockets of any spare cash ! ;D
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPGvAlxWbabYX6KJ2949-nnFKZvF_lBgH81foOOjVOY4ddPZog8N5PbG81)
......... It's just a practice run so everyone gets used to the concept.
When they get your CC numbers & Bank Account details the process won't hurt at all! Honestly.:D :D
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/19/microsofts_walled_garden_is_no_pleasure_park_for_consumers_says_pirate_party_mep/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/19/microsofts_walled_garden_is_no_pleasure_park_for_consumers_says_pirate_party_mep/)
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it gives the right to control what s/w and h/w you are allowed to use to MS. (Where have I seen that idea before ??!! ::) )
Oh dear... That is really one of the things that pees me off big time with Apple. Its like I love my ipad, but it bugs the hell out of me how Apple has so much control over what I can and cant do with it and the next tablet I purchase wont be Apple purely because of the control.
If MS start going down this route, then it could drive some of the more tech savy towards abandoning Windows in favour of Linux
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I'm not convinced the Apple comparison works.
As I see the world Apple, as a rule, simply constrain what you can do so it fits the design constraints of the hardware, and of the OS.
This has benefits... my 2009 Mac Mini still works with the latest OS/X whilst my iPad 2, approaching four years old, still runs latest iOS 8.
More significantly, as anybody ditchijg an insecure Android will appreciate, the aging iPad gets the security updates as soon as they are available. Current rumours are that my 2009 Mac Mini will continue to work with OS Post Yosemite and that iPAD 2s, all of which will be about four or five years old, will work with iOS 9.
just my opinion. :)
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I see the benefits .... IF..... you have a choice to buy in to the Apple Vision or not.
I will fight for your right to choose but if everyone goes down the same route it is bad all round.
Once it is the norm do you think Apple or any other large corporation will simply remain as they are.
It will be yet another race to bottom.
If MS is seen as having an advantage in how they leverage all the 'Data' they harvest and is seen to be challenging Apple and/or their plans they will 'evolve' in a similar way.
Every company who sees the opportunity to stick its snout in the trough and get rich will do the same.
My problem is that once the ability to have some privacy is gone, that is the end of that.
No-one will NOT monitise their users because it is the norm.
To not do so would be to go against the best interest of your shareholders. End of Story.
I am not a luddite fighting against 'Progress', I value privacy as a principle and I think we should fight for its preservation before it is too late.
[Clarion call over ;D]
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I agree that privacy is the principle concern and the way M$ is going should worry everyone. Currently Apple are not going that way, the monetise their customer base by restricting what you can do with your Apple hardware and by getting buy in to a lifestyle product.
By the way Android is inherently no more insecure than any Apple product, virus writers and hackers will always attack platforms which are likely to provide the best return on their investment just like regular developers. M$ and Android platforms represent huge numbers when compared to Apple equivalent products so where do you think hackers put their efforts. Linux is in a similar position to Apple in that respect.
What M$ is doing is very different and to be deplored but I dont believe for one minute that will stop them. I had already decided not to run M$ software as much as possible and this only confirms my view was correct. My two laptops will NEVER get W10, the one running W8.1 will get converted to Linux in the next few weeks and my W7 one will go the same route when I have found Linux weather software which works as well as my current stuff does (at present nothing comes close), however I only ditched W2K a few months ago so I think I have a few years of life with W7 yet. ;)
Prior to my retirement I worked on security software with some defence clients so I have a good understanding of security in all forms of IT. However much M$ will try what they are doing is a big issue for both security and privacy. No one has any right to access my data in any way at all without my express permission and with W10 there is no way easily to prevent M$ from doing this under the covers and I for one do not believe they are capable of providing secure storage for any data they obtain, plus I dont trust what they might use it for.
Stuart
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I have to say I don't have any privacy concerns with Apple, not sure what the W10 privacy comparisons are really based upon?
Re security, it's not that Android is any less secure than iOS, it's just that it's much easier for Apple to push out updates to fix any vulnerabilities that might emerge, even to older hardware. They can do so because they control both the hardware and OS. That's much harder with Android, owing to the complexity of updating, with dependencies on both Google and handset makers. What chance of (say) Samsung, for example, pushing out Android security fixes for an Android phone that is four or five years old?
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As if to prove my point about 'evolution' of companies 'data grabbing'.
Spotify have announce a change in their T's & C's and want to have access to more of 'your' data to provide a 'better' service.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34016658 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34016658)
This is what I mean, all companies watch the market and see what is now allowable\'slips through the net' and change their 'data needs' to not miss out. :o :( >:(
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Personally I think the wholesale abandonment of privacy dates back to pre home PCs and Internet.
In late 80s and early 90s, retailers began to offer 'loyalty' cards. Customers were offered a small financial reward in return for allowing the retailer to collect detailed data on every purchase, save that data for all eternity, and to sell that information to whoever they wanted for their own financial reward. Personally I reacted with horror, and can honestly say I have never accepted a loyalty card, but I was a bit shocked by the wholesale take up, and surrender of privacy, by the rest of the population.
Even Waitrose, supposedly a reserve of intellectuals, now offers a data-mining card - in return for a paper cup of coffee at the door, you surrender all privacy regarding shopping habits. It seems to have had good uptake. :(
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You are true the 1st dabbling in the arena of collecting customer data was Store Cards.
The same 'Customer' mentality seems to prevail now of only seeing the short-term gain and not seeing the long-term loss.
Even better now the short-term gain is 'made up' and still the people clamor to give all their privacy away for something they did not know they wanted !
??? :no: :'(
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Yes store cards were probably the start of most of it, however the big difference between store cards and what M$ is now doing is that the customer had an open and obvious choice to use a card or not to use one. This is something which with W10 is not a choice which is in anyway so obvious in that 99% of people will be totally oblivious to what is happening to their data, and potentially we are talking much more information most people would NOT want mined!
Stuart
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From what I have read here and elsewhere, I agree about W10 privacy issues. It is actually quite frustrating, as our windows system is long overdue replacement (8 yr old hardware, still on XP). I can't get enthusiastic about any of the current M$ options, especially W10, and yet for various reasons we do want a Windows system. :(
Last time around, when we bought XP, we splashed out on an expensive full license for Microsoft Office. But last time I looked, (pre-W10) even that in recent iterations seems to be going heavily cloud-based, and hard to opt out, with Microsoft pitching it as a good thing. For that reason alone, we probably won't buy Microsoft Office this time, no matter what Windows version we end up with. I run Open Office on the MAC - it's slow, a bit clunky, and crashes more often than you'd like, but does the job once you get used to its quirks. Hopefully, it will suffice on Windows too.
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These days I use LibreOffice which was forked from OpenOffice some time ago, having never been a M$ Office user even at work ;) I cant compare but I believe LibreOffice might be worth a look, runs fine on my wife's W8.1 laptop. I run it on Linux which is different ;) Unless you have stuff for which M$ is essential I do honestly believe that a KDE based Linux system can be a good alternative without a huge learning curve these days as a replacement for XP etc. Well worth downloading a USB drive bootable copy and having a play, there is very little you cant find Linux software for and most hardware is supported these days.
Stuart
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I have friends who use LibreOffice on Windows systems and are completely happy with it.
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Thanks for the tip, I'll check out libre office.
For reasons I won't go into, we actually have Linux, Mac and Windows systems, and each have their uses. We're probably ready to start to migrate away from Windows, but not yet able to burn the bridge. We certainly need a Mac for OS X as I do iOS development as a hobby, and the development tools are totally dependent on Apple's licensing servers which, of course, require OS X.
latest thoughts (since this morning ;) ) actually are to replace the windows box hardware with a decent Mac Mini, and then multi boot it with Windows 8.1 and Linux. I'll need to make sure that's possible and legal (by Apple's licence), but don't see why it shouldn't be? Apple even sanction the Windows part of it with OS X bootcamp. That may be the best way of laying a path that leads us in the long term to get rid of windows, whilst keeping both other options open...
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I second (or third :) )the Libreoffice comments.
I moved to Libreoffice a few years ago and it works fine.
(Wanted to break my MS habit after fighting/supporting other peoples .pst crashes. I moved to Thunderbird & LibreOffice (OpenOffice 1st then moved))
There are always people that say it is not able to support the most complex spreadsheets & the presentation s/w is harder to use than MS's etc etc
For general use I have never had a problem.
If you need to use it in anger, test it with your most complex documents/spreadsheets etc. Only costs a little of your time.
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I'll need to make sure that's possible and legal (by Apple's licence), but don't see why it shouldn't be?
That's what gets my goat about Apple, if you own the damn hardware then in my view you can do what you want with it and Stuff Apple.
Stuart
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Apple's view is more like you are buying a lifetime lease.
The device allows access to the Apple ecosystem but Apple control everything else. This includes what can and cannot 'touch' their hardware or networks etc.
Great for Apple but misunderstood by many including their own customers.
Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
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Actually, Apple are pretty generous with what you can/cannot do with Macs.
For example, new OS versions are usually nearly (or completely) free. After all, you've paid for the MAC. And, having chosen to install the new OS, Apple (at least in the time I've been using MACs) are quite happy for you to multi boot old and new OS on same PC, no extra license required.
If you want to dual boot Microsoft Windows on MAC, they not only allow it but make it very easy...
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201468
As stated, I'm not aware of any restriction against installing Linux. I'd be surprised if there were, but would want to read the small print again just to make sure.
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I simply do not accept that Apple have any rights at all over the hardware you purchase and therefore own. If they only allowed you to rent the hardware that would be different. However as you own it they have no rights over what you do with it whatsoever, and in my view that also applies to reverse engineering it if you so wish, provided that is is ONLY for your personal use. That also applies to installing any software you want on it, OS or application s/w.
Stuart
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@broadstairs
I could agree with your sentiments BUT Apple do make it clear what you are allowed to do (if you look before you sign on the dotted line ;D )
It is part of the judgement you make when you buy into the whole Apple 'World'.
@sevenlayermuddle
I simply have a different view of apple to you.
What you see as generous I see as nothing more than allowing you to play the way Apple want you to play.
e.g. Allowing multiple versions of IOS to be installed does not have any negative side for Apple as they need to allow some backward compatibility and in all cases you are using the 'allowed' OS.
Further, allowing you to use MS OSes in a virtual machine is simply conceding that there might be some software you need to run which is NOT produced by Apple.
I am not saying the restrictions are malicious but are controlling compared to the freedom you had :'( with MS and have with *nix.
You characterise Apple as being somehow altruistic while I see them as a very carefully designed machine to make lots of money.
No decisions are personal they are calculated to the last cent.
The difference between MS & Apple is the subtlety of their interactions with their customers.
MS hits you over the head with a large club and says 'You must'
Apple caresses your brow while pushing you steadily but inexorably towards the 'Apple Way'.
In both cases you end up where the vendor want you to be ;D ;D
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OS X is software, not hardware, and so, just like Microsoft Windows and (yes) Linux it is subject to a licence agreement that will tell users what they can and cannot do.
If you don't want to run OS X then I'm not aware of any restrictions on use of Mac hardware, pretty sure you can do what you like with the hardware.
It's really no different to Windows or Linux, all have licences agreements, just the terms of the licence are different.
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I simply have a different view of apple to you.
Clearly. :)
May I ask, is your view based on personal experience?
My view is based on experience and moreover it is gained on experience of using Apple products alongside Linux and Microsoft, often all three at the same time.
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Sorry I don't do 'Apple' so OSX is correct not IOS ..... Oops ;D
I have never heard of anyone buying Apple hardware to NOT use the Apple OS as it was designed for.
It would be an expensive way to get the hardware.
Which would not run MS OSes well if at all due to incompatibilities ..... (I don't mean via a virtual machine as that is using OSX)
*nix maybe but you would have to search for drivers etc to make all the hardware work. (Not sure that they are all available)
We seem to be 'arguing' about Apple which was not my intent.
If you like the Hardware/Software and like the Apple way of doing things that is your choice which I am totally happy for you to do.
I just wish people would understand fully what they are doing, just as with MS and Win10 now.
Informed consent is what it comes down to.
There is far too little of it with MS win10 which started this thread.
I like the usability of Apples kit generally but not the 'cost' to buy into the whole ethos.
Your view if different and so your decision to use Apple kit. Fair enough.
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I simply have a different view of apple to you.
Clearly. :)
May I ask, is your view based on personal experience?
My view is based on experience and moreover it is gained on experience of using Apple products alongside Linux and Microsoft, often all three at the same time.
I have used Apple kit in the past having to support some people who insisted on have different kit to everyone else.
As stated the usability is not the issue.
It is very nice and isolates from lots of issues with the hardware but having worked with kit from the hardware up that isolation can be annoying at times.
Apple tries to design kit that 'just works', to do that they have controlled everything to make incompatibilities as small as possible and reduce errors .... great and good !
This leads to one of those situations where the decision is 'If you want that .... you have to accept this'.
The 'This' in Apples case is that I must pass too much of my data (by my measure) though Apples computers.
I don't want to do that so apple is not on my 'Buy list'.
Others want the features of living in an 'Apple world' so trade one against the other.
That is it in a nutshell.
Which links back to my general problems with privacy with MS, Apple and Google etc etc
I am not picking on Apple, they are simply the 'experts' that obviously MS are trying to emulate ... badly. ;D
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I do agree that Apple (well Macs) are very nice to use almost as good as my beloved Amiga which I had to retire some years ago sadly, for my mind one of the best ever computers ruined by hugely bad management at Commodore. In fact I use to run the Mac OS (pre OSX days) on a Mac emulator on my Amiga ;). It is without doubt well designed and generally works but it is in my view hugely overpriced for what you get. That said MAC/OSX is good and if it suits your purpose (and you can afford it) then that's fine, although I dont hold the same view of the phone products.
I do feel however that many large corporations are going the route of saying you can create your data but we will get access to it by fair means or potentially foul, which is why I dont use the cloud and never will, all my data is held on my own equipment. M$ have taken this all a big step too far in my view and I hope it will come back to bite them hard at a later stage (probably when huge amounts of customer data is exposed on the web), I fully expect this to happen.
Stuart
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As far as I can see, people don't care about their personal/private data given the amount they provide to Facebook etc. Further, they freely share anything they know about me, for example, as well.
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Which is why I only use Facebook and Twitter to view stuff and never post any data on there. I have copyrighted stuff removed from Facebook in the past and never flinch from chasing anything which is used without permission AND accreditation. I do hate the way people use these so called social media sites, in fact I often feel anti-social media would be more appropriate especially considering the number of people who dont look where they are going as they are too busy on their phones doing this stuff. Who gives a s*** that someone has just been to their favourite coffee shop or just run 3.8 miles round a park!
Stuart
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As far as I can see, people don't care about their personal/private data
Most peepz don't understand that they are giving it. They havent even read the EULA which states what the hardware or software manufacture take.
Sorry 7LM Apple are the worse for this. If you have an Iphone with Siri read what data apple collects from using that :'(
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As far as I can see, people don't care about their personal/private data given the amount they provide to Facebook etc. Further, they freely share anything they know about me, for example, as well.
It is because of this attitude, that has been carefully fostered, that MS et al are pushing the boundaries and will keep pushing them.
I too dislike the fact that not only are people giving away their own data but by indirection they are giving my data away as well.
I have never signed up to any service/site that publishes data about me, unless I choose to.
Facebook, Twitter etc are of no interest .... Sorry! :o
It's not that I have anything of major national importance to lose ;D it is just I don't feel I should help the process along by following the crowd.
The latest thing I have read is a 'Secure E-mail' app which destroys the message after it is read. (Wasn't there a similar thing for Photo's ? )
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33650488 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33650488) [Confidential CC is the Company]
Don't get the point as it is not secure if the message can be read. A fancy UI the makes reading the message difficult is no protection.
Wait for the 1st app that is able to read the messages without the obscuring UI.
Also it is yet another attempt to get buy-in for the 'X' (secure mail) as a lead-in to using 'Y' (other services) ..... you know where that leads ;D ;D :D
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[Sorry 7LM Apple are the worse for this. If you have an Iphone with Siri read what data apple collects from using that :'(
The difference is, it is obvious that Siri is going to upload content to Apple, it even refuses to work if you don't have a connection. If it bothers you, you can disable it. I strike a middle ground by disabling 'Hey Siri' as I'm not comfortable with the possibility it might be 'listening' to unintended conversation, that way Siri only listens when I press a button to make it do so.
Similarly, I have seen 'spotlight' criticises. But it performs a web search, so how the heck did critics think it worked, other than by uploading the searches? And there is of course no need to use the facility and even if you do, it is easily configurable.
But that bears no comparison at all to the criticisms of W10, whereby it is suggested (in this thread and elsewhere) that W10 uploads data for which there is no obvious justification, and make it very difficult if not impossible to opt out. Have I jumped to conclusions prematurely in supporting criticism of W10?
If this is really the only kind of thing that Microsoft are doing, I may have to reconsider my criticisms of W10. ???
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@sevenlayermuddle
It comes back to 'Informed consent' as stated.
If you are happy with the 'Give' and 'take' ..... OK
Too many are not noticing what it happening when the press they 'Quick Update' Button.
I realise that I am doing a 'King Canute' but some noise needs to be made. :( >:(
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I do feel however that many large corporations are going the route of saying you can create your data but we will get access to it by fair means or potentially foul, which is why I dont use the cloud and never will, all my data is held on my own equipment. M$ have taken this all a big step too far in my view and I hope it will come back to bite them hard at a later stage (probably when huge amounts of customer data is exposed on the web), I fully expect this to happen.
Totally agree, re cloud, scares me a lot.
Apple are role model in that respect, at least. Yes they encourage you to use an iCloud sign in when setting up an OS X user but it clear what they are asking, it is easy to say 'no', and the answer is accepted.
Similarly with iOS, you don't have to sign up to iCloud and even if you do, you can sign out again. Same for the App store. Contrast with Android... one reason I stopped using my own darned Android was the multitude of devious ways google seemed to be contriving to get me signed back in again to my google account, even when I thought I'd signed out.
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it is obvious that Siri is going to upload content to Apple
Unfotunately it isn't obvious to a large percentage for the reason I stated previously. And to touch on a point that AArdvark made Siri and I guess other product state they will store data about 3rd party. So Info about me could be stored without my knowledge or consent.
Even if you turn "off" features they can be turned on again remotely by the provider. So how knows BB maybe listening and watching without your consent or knowledge.
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To round off the Apple references in this thread...
There are many reasons for not using Apple software. Just 'not liking Apple' is a very good reason, we are all entitled to our opinions, and I'm a big believer in going with hunches.
But not using Apple because of privacy concerns is frankly absurd. Privacy invasion is just not Apple's thing, especially compared with the likes of Microsoft and Google. And yet, I'd bet good money that most of those claiming to be worried about Apple's privacy have an Android phone. :)
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You feel compelled to 'defend' Apples 'Honour' ....... From what ? and Why ?
They are a Business just like MS and Google and others.
They will monitise their users just like everyone else.
Unless you have access to their source and know everything they do, you can only surmise they are not as bad as the others.
You are now debating 'shades of gray' as in 'up to that point is good' but 'after that point is bad'.
Monitising your users on the basis of their data is bad ..... Full Stop.
Doing it 'nicely' does not change anything.
You are debating a 'feeling' about/for a corporate entity ???
This whole 'shades of gray' attitude is part of the problem as Apple get away with it on the basis of a 'feeling', yet there is nothing to stop them evolving their techniques.
They are obviously very good at it and that is why they are being copied.
Is it possible for Apple to ever be considered 'Bad' ?
Slick advertising and extremely effective building of a 'Apple mentality' in the workers and the customers is proof to me that they are just as driven to make money as anyone else.
Apple make money because they are good at manipulating their customers and selling a 'life style image', that is not a person but a corporate machine focused on money & profit.
Like\love your apple products if you want but becoming an Evangelist for the 'Apple Image' is too far for me. ;D
Think carefully is there any other product that you own that you would defend to this degree, as not just you like the product but feel compelled to defend a presumed attack on the company itself like it was a real person.
Do you not think this is strange to have such a personal investment in a 'Company'. ?
I am sorry if this offends you but I am amazed at this reaction for/about a Company !
Remember also its products are produced by people who are NOT living the 'Apple Life Style' because that generates more profits for Apple.
Does that not give you a clue that they are a Corporate entity chasing profits just like MS & Google !
Finally, MS, Google & Apple will all tell me that the data they take is for my benefit and to ensure a better experience etc etc
Why is MS & Googles word worth less than Apples or vice versa ?
Any Corporate entity that makes the amount of money MS, Google & Apple make, is NOT my friend and will not be working for my benefit.
Of this I can be very very sure. !! ;D ;D :D
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Frankly Arrdvark, I am finding it hard to follow your logic.
But may I ask, do you have an Android phone?
If so, let me see, you are clearly concerned about privacy, yet you are using the services and software of Google ... In the words of Mr McEnroe 30 odd years ago...
you can not be serious'. :)
If you're phone is not Android then please accept grovelling apologies. :blush:
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Please advise where the logic is faulty and I will explain or correct ?
Yes I do own an Android Phone but I do not log into any Google services or store any data on Google as the real me or tbh very very little as any ID.
My Id is made up and contains no real data.
I cannot be traced or tracked as me.
You may be able to know where my phone is, if I have GPS switched on.
My home signal is so bad I connect via Broadband so as far as the world is concerned I am at the point 3's network joins to the Internet.
I only store things in the cloud that are of my choosing.
You would be lucky to find a photograph of me, never mind anything else.
My phone is for making calls and not for dumping my whole life in other peoples faces.
I do not use Twitter, Facebook etc etc
I use the bits of the Internet that serve me and no more.
As I am constrained from being able to build my own phone that is the best I can do and still have a mobile.
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I have both an Iphone 6 and find the OS IMO very aukward and a Windows phone which I prefer the OS but it too has its problems not least the crappy sound.
But the point being discussed is that everyone is hell bent on getting information on you, your habbits and those you know. Even apps which dont need to do this insist you give it.
Whilst a lot of good has been gained from the vast amount of data which has been gained in recent years, individuals have no control over what is gained, who has access or how its used. As such we are only a few steps from being manipulated in sinister ways. “All power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.” >:D
IF you dont think you are being manipulated just consider how barefruits and Google works.
You may be able to know where my phone is, if I have GPS switched on
AArdvark I hope you have WiFi disabled otherwise your phone can still be tracked
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AArdvark I hope you have WiFi disabled otherwise your phone can still be tracked
;D ;D
I know, I never use Wi-fi outside. I have signed up for the Free O2 Wi-fi but never used it. (Yet another Id that is 'not me' :) )