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Internet => Web Browsing & Email => Topic started by: Chrysalis on July 29, 2015, 09:47:39 PM

Title: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 29, 2015, 09:47:39 PM
So I migrated some of my use to chrome today and on the basic resource usage and performance observation, firefox has serious problems.

As an example on this forum my average page load time on firefox is about 200-500ms. On chrome its under 100ms consistently, very impressive.  The gap is much wider on heavier sites like youtube.

Looking at resource usage, chrome also blows firefox away in that department as well.

Then there is the fact firefox has no native privilege separation, or auto sandboxing on windows like chrome and IE as well as no process per tab which makes its crash recovery a joke and explains its slow performance with heavy tab usage  Some info here. http://www.howtogeek.com/165264/heres-why-firefox-is-still-years-behind-google-chrome/

I am not 100% happy, seems is no way to have multi row tabs so I found an extension called tabs outliner which puts the tabs in a list, allowing 100s to be loaded and easy to use.

safe script works well (similar to firefox no script)
ublock origin same as firefox but again seems much faster
editthiscookie to adjust cookie lifetimes
enhancedsteam
proxyswitchomega (not sure if will keep this for my proxy management yet)
tabtothenextright
vanillacookiemanager (also not sure if will keep this yet)
you tube centre dev build (on firefox memory skyrockets with this plugin, chrome seems fine however)

For other chrome users some info here if like to tweak stuff.
url -> chrome://flags/

advanced settings here although labeled as experimental

startup flags here which I used many to overide certian behaviours such as moving cache to ram disk and disabling ciphers.  http://peter.sh/experiments/chromium-command-line-switches/#cipher-suite-blacklist

for the curious here is my startup batch file (yes is batch file as syntax too long for explorer shell), note I have some experimental stuff I enabled out of curiosity.

Code: [Select]
start ChromiumPortable.exe --cipher-suite-blacklist=0x009c,0xc009,0xc00a,0xcc15,0x009e --disable-backing-store-limit --disable-3d-apis --disable-breakpad --disable-client-side-phishing-detection --disable-cloud-import --disable-direct-write --disable-directwrite-for-ui --disable-java --disable-password-generation --disable-physical-keyboard-autocorrect --disable-preconnect --enable-remote-fonts --disable-suggestions-service --disable-timezone-tracking-option --disable-webgl --disable-webrtc --disk-cache-dir=R:/CHROME --disk-cache-size=524288000 --dns-prefetch-disable --enable-async-dns --enable-bookmark-undo --enable-devtools-experiments --enable-download-resumption --enable-fast-unload --enable-potentially-annoying-security-features --enable-stale-while-revalidate --enable-strict-mixed-content-checking --enable-strict-powerful-feature-restrictions --enable-smooth-scrolling --enable-tcp-fastopen
among the changes is also some stuff for privacy like disabling dns prefetches and speculative connections.

hope people can give me feedback on my thoughts and list the extensions they use, thanks.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: kitz on July 29, 2015, 10:15:58 PM
For the past few weeks FF seems to have become slow for me. 
It seems to bloat easily and Im wondering if there is some sort of memory issue. (Ive not tested anything).   But Im surprised at just how quickly it can be utilising anything up to 3GB of RAM of late.   I do usually have a lot of windows and tabs open therefore that memory isn't released until all windows are closed... which isnt something I always want to do.   Chrome uses a separate process for each window.

I use a mix of both browsers although FF mostly as thats where all my bookmarks are. I noticed several years ago that chrome was much better at handling certain types of pages and is much quicker..  Ive just never made the transit as there's a few things that niggle me about chrome too.   

Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Weaver on July 29, 2015, 10:56:46 PM
Under recent versions of Windows I wouldn't use anything other than IE (don't know anything about Microsoft Edge) because of IEís split low-rights design. As Iím sure many will know, recent versions of IE (under Vista and above, not WinXp) when run by a standard user, a non-admin, run the critical half of the browser in a reduced-privileges account which is restricted from accessing certain objects that are accessible to the standard user's normal account.

I need to read more about Chromeís security design, but I do remember that Google put in some serious work in this area, however whether or not Google exploit native low-rights split design I couldn't say.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: tbailey2 on July 29, 2015, 11:05:43 PM
For me quite the opposite. Chrome kept locking up the PC so I gave up with it and moved to Waterfox for everything some time back except for compatibility testing. Runs fine and I can actually have rows of tabs and a warning when I try to close them all at once.

IE11 is also a non-runner for me but then IE always has been pretty useless IMHO.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: broadstairs on July 29, 2015, 11:31:20 PM
Well I have yet to better FF on my system, but that is Linux not Windows.

Stuart
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: burakkucat on July 30, 2015, 12:50:41 AM
Firefox ESR (64-bit) just works for me on RHEL6.  ;)
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 30, 2015, 01:01:22 AM
Under recent versions of Windows I wouldn't use anything other than IE (don't know anything about Microsoft Edge) because of IEís split low-rights design. As Iím sure many will know, recent versions of IE (under Vista and above, not WinXp) when run by a standard user, a non-admin, run the critical half of the browser in a reduced-privileges account which is restricted from accessing certain objects that are accessible to the standard user's normal account.

I need to read more about Chromeís security design, but I do remember that Google put in some serious work in this area, however whether or not Google exploit native low-rights split design I couldn't say.

Chrome copies that split low rights design check this screenshot.

Note also the ASLR which firefox and its crummy 32bit doesnt support.

Mozilla's attitude to windows is pretty bad, IE and chrome have had this built in security for years.

Sadly I am moving to chrome from chromium.

Chromium I cannot get flash working plus it excludes all the nice netflix html5 stuff.

Chrome makes it very hard to use extensions not from their store, there is a workaround for you tube center but not the tabsontheright extension, so I have lost that for now.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: loonylion on July 30, 2015, 01:04:58 AM
That's exactly why I don't use chrome. I don't want 900+ browser processes clogging up my process list.

Also 'security' and 'IE' don't belong in the same sentence.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 30, 2015, 01:08:03 AM
The single process is holding firefox back big time tho.

Try having dozens of tabs open in firefox, the entire browser, the gui, garbage collection, content etc. all shares one process, bad for security, bad for performance, and if one tab crashes the entire browser crashes, its an outdated model.  It is even explained in the link I provided in the first post.

Also by the way firefox will go multi process, they are forced to move with the times, they are working on an E10 project currently but it seems a bit of a mess as they have had to hold it back to only one process for all tabs. Seperate from the main process.  In particular the multi process structure is critical for the low level rights.

I have tried to stay loyal to firefox and used it for years, their ineptitude was in part proven when I moved to cyberfox 64bit, that stopped all the crashes I was getting (when their devs claimed 32bit only is enough) however it didnt improve performance as thats all bogged down with their old code design.

In my opinion IE is more secure than firefox.  Firefox does no auto sandboxing and doesnt drop its rights, that is a pretty big flaw.

Firefox improves with the likes of noscript, but IE has noscript functionality built in with its security zones.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: loonylion on July 30, 2015, 01:17:31 AM
I currently have 998 tabs open in firefox and it's not causing any significant issues. plugins are sandboxed. Firefox is way better for web development than chrome also.

IE is far too tightly integrated into the OS, holes in IE allow the entire OS to be compromised, and some dont get fixed for years and years.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Weaver on July 30, 2015, 01:55:00 AM
about Chromeís use of integrity levels/low-rights design here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Integrity_Control
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: tbailey2 on July 30, 2015, 06:28:02 AM
I currently have 998 tabs open in firefox and it's not causing any significant issues. plugins are sandboxed. Firefox is way better for web development than chrome also.

IE is far too tightly integrated into the OS, holes in IE allow the entire OS to be compromised, and some dont get fixed for years and years.

Fully agree. Can't go quite that high but I have 229 tabs open currently with no problems. Also I'm running the 64-bit version, not 32-bit. Likewise for development it's far better. The other BIG problem with Chrome and its subsidiaries is the company that owns it. Google is getting way too big and invasive for me.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 30, 2015, 02:31:58 PM
chrome unloads idle tabs which would shut down the processes.  There is also extensions to speed up that process.

As tony said 64 bit systems are far capable of using heavier loads than 32bit (which the official firefox is stuck on).

Also have the google concerns which is why I stayed away from chrome for so long its also probably why I will still use firefox for some stuff, so I can assess if they fix their problems which would make me move back.

To give an idea of the problems I been having.

32bit - browser start been unstable, crashes and not responding hangs and such usually within a day of usage.
32bit - memory usage grows to 1.5gig within a day or so, at that point it will be running much slower due to constant aggressive garbage collections running every few seconds of which I can see constantly spiking system cpu usage and will be close to crashing due to 32bit limits.
64bit - no crashes but memory will quickly grow to over 2 gig of memory and it still slows down like the 32bit version, the difference is no crashes and doesnt completely hang like the 32bit version, but still stutters when scrolling etc.  Also this version doesn't have the DRM libraries needed for html5 netflix as Mozilla only have them for 32bit.

firefox is so aggressive with garbage collection, I have filed bug reports and so on but no one there is interested in fixing that issue. e.g. I can have the browser sitting idle and exactly every 6 seconds it does a cycle collector and garbage collector run, spiking cpu usage and causing stutters in the browser, if I load a page, it does one during the page load which slows it down and then at least 3 more after its loaded in quick succession.  This aggressive behavior suggests the age old memory leak problem still exists and they using GC to try and cover it up as older versions of firefox were not this bad.

Firefox works ok if very low tabs e.g. less than 10 but it still is slower than both IE and chrome in that configuration and has excessive memory usage as well.  They probably need to start from scratch but cannot as it would trash the user base they got.  With E10 they have had to make many concessions to keep existing addons working.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: tbailey2 on July 30, 2015, 02:59:21 PM
chrome unloads idle tabs which would shut down the processes.  There is also extensions to speed up that process.

FF will go to separate processes by the end of the year they say.

I don't see any evidence of garbage collection, didn't even know it existed. When idling it does just that no spikes at all. Maybe just 32-bit? However, just looked at FF 32-bit on another terminal with 8 tabs open and none of which are refreshing automatically and CPU usage is static at 0%  :-\
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: broadstairs on July 30, 2015, 05:36:36 PM
FF for Linux has had 64-bit official releases now for ages, which is what I run.

Stuart
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 30, 2015, 05:38:40 PM
yep but mozilla treat windows users as second class, and have done for a while.

In regards to garbage collection, I notice it via "stuttering", there is a advanced option to enable that makes gc's and cc's logged to the console and then can watch that console log how frequently its run.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: NewtronStar on July 30, 2015, 11:42:11 PM
It's amazing how many Web sites are moving away from MS IE9 and 10 I have 3 browsers installed on Windows these days MS Internet Explorer Chrome and Firefox it's becoming a lottery as to which site you land on and which browser works better.

It was great in the old days when all sites just used IE5 and 6 and there were no other optional browsers  ;)
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 31, 2015, 02:26:49 AM
well yeah web development is moving fast today, one of IE's problems has been not able to keep up as is no rapid release policy.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: kitz on July 31, 2015, 06:44:46 AM
It's not so much websites are moving away from IE.  It's more that Web standards dictate the use of CSS.  CSS is supposed to mean that pages are viewed exactly the same despite whatever browser you use. Style sheets have been around for about 10yrs now, yet different browsers still don't render the code the same as they are supposed to

IE is one of those browsers that had a reputation for not being able to interpret & render CSS properly, but there are still some others that have quirks. For example see the screen cap from bcat at the top of the forum thread showing how a particular browser isn't lining up a graphic how it should.  I spent hours doing the css and about another hour last night checking and double checking my code and seeing if I could tweak something but still no joy so far.    It's very frustrating for web designers when browsers behave unexpectedly so I can fully understand why some web devs give up if IE doesn't render a page how its supposed to.



Re browsers: - Netscape was the very first browser that I used as it came on a floppy disk with the welcome pack from my first ISP.  MS IE wasn't really heard of back then and until MS started packaging it with their operating system (think Win98?) no one hardly used IE.
I remember Netscape Gold being released and thinking it was the bees knees when they brought that particular version out because of the suite packaged items such as navigator, email client, news reader and what must have been one of the first freebie WYSIWYG html editors.  I can't recall the year exactly Netscape Gold version being released but possibly 97?  It wiped the floor with IE which in the late 90s wasn't very good and quite basic compared to Netscape.

I stuck with Netscape for many many years, only moving to IE when AOL bought Netscape out and ruined it by making it bulky and slow, just like AOL ruined ICQ which was the best messenger client ever. AOL killed both :(

iirc Mozilla came to the rescue of Netscape - Firefox is built on and based from Netscape code.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: loonylion on July 31, 2015, 01:14:56 PM
It was great in the old days when all sites just used IE5 and 6 and there were no other optional browsers  ;)

there was netscape, opera and amaya. and IE rendered webpages wrong even then. Microsoft have always ignored web standards such as CSS in favour of their own ideas of how things should be done. Luckily the majority ignored MS otherwise we'd be paying per email.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on July 31, 2015, 02:09:15 PM
for me firefox doesnt work properly on asda's website yet chrome and IE are fine, so kitz point is valid on that.

I tested "the great suspender" extension on chrome, installed it just before going bed, when I checked my pc today, it had shut down many tab processes, so I can confirm on suspended tabs the processes do indeed get killed.  It excludes tabs which have unfinished filled form data and you can whitelist any sites you choose.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on August 19, 2015, 09:46:10 AM
Got my first chrome issue I cannot resolve.

I leave the browser open for long periods, but it seems if left idle for too long (usually if asleep or out somewhere) it stops been able to open sessions on websites e.g. I cannot authenticate to websites.  Restarting the browser makes it work again.

My theory is that it is silently updating and auto restarting, and when it restarts it doesnt use my syntax options which breaks the sessions.  Evidence supporting this is that when it occurs the chrome icon moves to the end of the windows taskbar.

I did find a guide on how to make updates require manual intervention and configured that yesterday, but its possible that isnt working.

any thoughts?

note if my login is cached via cookies like on kitz, I stay authenticated and can still use those sites, its when trying to login manually.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: d2d4j on August 19, 2015, 12:12:03 PM
Hi

I maybe wrong sorry but this sounds like on the hosting platform, your session has expired, but your browser may still be sending the old session key to website.

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on August 19, 2015, 01:36:25 PM
it has also occured on sites i never logged in before from the browser.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Chrysalis on September 10, 2015, 10:39:46 PM
I solved the session issue.

TheGreatSuspender addon has an option to preserve tabs that have populated form data, seems that option breaks sessions after it suspends tabs.
Title: Re: wow firefox issues worse then I thought - migrating to chrome
Post by: Bowdon on September 18, 2015, 11:41:50 AM
Firefox is getting amazingly bad when it comes to HTML5 players. On the test page on youtube firefox doesn't pass all the checks on my old WinXP machine (I'm waiting for a better deal on the new comps! :) ). But on Chrome on the same XP machine everything works good.