Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: sharpz44 on July 05, 2015, 07:24:53 PM
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Hi, looking at my line stats on billion 8800 axl in bridge connnected to asus Ac87U I am getting high pings, could some look at the stats for me please.
ode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 3.8 1.8
Attenuation (dB) 10.2 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 13.6 -5.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 90624 15751
Rate (Kbps) 79994 20000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 55 236
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 64 5
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 14 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0223 0.3771
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 25152 5410
D (interleaver depth) 1419 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 70 255
N (RS codeword size) 70 255
Delay (msec) 8 0
INP (DMT symbol) 3.00 0.00
OH Frames 132993813 23115130
OH Frame Errors 45 1449
RS Words 4059798291 1886065
RS Correctable Errors 25829719 38252
RS Uncorrectable Errors 1812 0
HEC Errors 567 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 475280030 0
Data Cells 241192040 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 7 964
Total SES 0 2
Total UAS 28 28
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Can you post a tracert to bbc.co.uk please?
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I am rather surprised to see "3.8 1.8" as the DS/US SNRM, respectively. :-\
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well on a tracert its 17-25 , cant copy the tracert have no clipboard, wht surprised at SNR I am close to exchange.
Thanks
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Your distance from the exchange is not relevant for a VDSL2 (FTTC) circuit.
Normally, the SNRM will be at 6 dB or higher for both DS & US of a FTTC circuit.
I also note that the synchronisation rate for the US (20000 kbps) is currently higher than the attainable rate for US (15751 kbps). When considered with the very low value of the US SNRM (1.8 dB), it makes me think that there is severe service-affecting disturber coupling into your circuit.
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Thanks for reply, is there a way to fix this,also I was looking at the high interleaved depth and that's what made me think the ping was bad,not very good at understanding the stats,but one thing I know is when gaming it's not right,would it be a good idea to try and get BT to re sync the line ..thanks for your help
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Is 17ms bad?
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Well it was at 146ms when I did a BT wholesale test and that what made me think something was wrong,also seems poor online gaming for some reason, not sure how good the wholsale test is after doing the tracert
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Is 17ms bad?
17ms to the server from the same country is pretty bad tho, especially for fibre optic. I am pretty sure people from abroad, mayble netherlands or germany get same or lower latency to bbc.co.uk.
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I am rather surprised to see "3.8 1.8" as the DS/US SNRM, respectively. :-\
I believe (but don't quote me) that certain modems allow you to override this with a "stability/speed" slider, but the way I read the OP was that the Billion was playing modem and the Asus was handling PPPoE (I might have misread).
I would have thought the error counts (which in turn are driving the DLM to force interleaving/higher latency) are a direct result of running the line below 6dB.
Case in point: I usually have 6.0 - 6.3 SNRM over the course of the day - this dropped to 5.n over the past few days with all of the warm weather. My Traffic lights were showing Yellow on MDWS and my actual speed was higher than my attainable. Yesterday the DLM kicked in put me back to 6.2, and dropped my downstream to 49000 (attainable 55000). All of my traffic lights are green now (and presumably the speed will creep back up when the weather cools down).
I guess the question I have is why hasn't the DLM corrected the OPs SNRM to something a little less error prone?
Question to sharpz44: have you tweaked any settings on the modem, or is it even possible with the equipment/firmware you're running?
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Is 17ms bad?
17ms to the server from the same country is pretty bad tho, especially for fibre optic.
That's OK depending on where you are in the UK - we all know that BT (for Infinity products) route their traffic all over the place, other ISPs may be better.
Add in a couple of ms for wifi, firewall, QoS etc on the home end, the fact 8ms is being added for interleaving and I'd say this was a pretty good line - just need to get the errors down so that it isn't interleaved - this'll get it to <10ms.
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As has already been mentioned, distance to the cab or exchange is of little relevance. You are talking just meters and its kilometers that add on the latency.. so it depends where in the UK you are located. Im up in the NW and until fairly recently then 16ms was considered the average time to get from the NW to London.
BTwholesale have recently been rejigging their network and bringing in MSE bRAS which shaves an extra couple of seconds off that time.
The other thing to mention is that we have been noticing that customers of BTretail do seem to experience slightly higher latency than some of the other UK ISPs :(
From your stats you obviously have interleaving and error correction (INP) applied so that will account for additional delay. I would not class 17ms bad for a line which has interleaving applied.
I would not let that line run at SNR margins of 3.8 and 1.8 and suggest you perform a resync to bring your SNRm back to the default 6dB. Its the low SNRm which will be causing errors to accrue, which is what will make DLM apply interleaving. When errors are generated then this is when you can sometimes see latency very briefly start to lag and may account for the higher latency you say you sometimes see.
I know the line is currently running at 20Mbps upstream and a resync could give you a lower speed, but if you dont do it, then DLM will do it for you and add error protection.
I'd also be monitoring/graphing your SNRm to see how much it varies over the course of the day. Based on your downstream atten then you should easily be able to manage 20Mbps and if you cant, then its suggestive of faulty internal wiring or a line fault.
If you do a quite line test can you hear any noise?
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Thanks for the advice,the billion was never tweaked and also my wiring is a high speed cable with all extensions removed from main socket, those stats were taken after 43 days up time, also I updated the billion firmware and the down sync dropped to 73,had some hassle connected to my asus again.? So unplugged it as was frustrated and put openreach back in, so today decided to try again and now the billion does not even get DSL , so it's getting binned and back to my eci modem, I shall ring BT and ask them to reset my connection
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So contact BT, got put through to a level 2 guy who agreed that the Snr was incorrect and to reset it,also told me that interleaved would be reomoved as part of the Snr reset , so will see what happens, really appreciate the help from you guys.. Thanks
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I'm not sure BT can do a reset over the phone, I think it needs an engineer to attend and do it.
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So they might be fobbing me off, I knew I should never have gone with BT , and I'm Norwich as that was asked , I asked them to reset the line so not sure if they can do that remotely or not, I have know sent back the billion 8800 and decided to use MDWS as this seems good, all I want is low ping ,it's driving me mad, I wonder what the best ISP in UK is for online gaming
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Dray is correct, they cannot do a reset over the phone. DLM resets can only be performed by an Openreach engineer after completion of a line fault.
However, resyncing your modem should automatically re-align your SNRm back to its default value of 6dB.
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So I now have an engineer coming out to sort this out,whats best thing to get him to do,would a line reset get it back on track,also I will ask him if he knows that G.INP is enabled while I`m at it. Thanks
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Since an engineer has been already booked then I would ensure you point out the issue is with the upstream.
However he may see that you are syncing at 20Mbps and not see any issue with this and be oblivious to the fact that your SNRm is so low.
The only way that you can prove their is an issue is by resyncing (rebooting) your modem. Has your ISP not asked you to do this already?
If you have rebooted what are your new line stats? The issue may even clear itself on a reboot.
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So they might be fobbing me off, I knew I should never have gone with BT , and I'm Norwich as that was asked , I asked them to reset the line so not sure if they can do that remotely or not, I have know sent back the billion 8800 and decided to use MDWS as this seems good, all I want is low ping ,it's driving me mad, I wonder what the best ISP in UK is for online gaming
Oooh. Which exchange/roughly what area?
I work near Hall Road, but live close to Dereham. Latency from this part of the world seems a bit crap if I'm honest (considering London is not that far compared to say where Kitz is in NW England) - my first hop is currently ~20ms latency without interleaving (but that's plus.net for you!), slightly better latency on a commercial leased line (VM) @work, but that has some (deliberate) wacky routing.
If your cabinet is reasonably "new" chances are it doesn't have G.INP yet - depends if you're on an older cabinet or one of the new BDUK/council funded cabinets.
If you know your cabinet number+exchange, the rest is easy enough to work out...
Once your SNRM is ~6dB, your speed will drop a bit, your errors will reduce and interleaving will be removed - then you should get lower pings, but don't expect it to be much lower than 10ms...
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I'm in Acle
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I'm in Acle
If you're on cab 7 it might have G.INP, otherwise you're on an ECI cabinet and I don't think you'll be getting it anytime soon.
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here are the stats off MDWS
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here are the stats off MDWS
I believe that it is cab 8 and it is ECI,so why not getting it
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I was under the impression that they're not rolling it out to ECI cabinets until the Hauwei ones are all done, but this is something the others know more about...
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So apparently they reset my line, still high interleaved on it...
Status
xDSL
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.3 6.5
Attenuation (dB) 10.2 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 13.5 -6.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 87368 22988
Rate (Kbps) 73265 20000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 51 236
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 64 5
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0226 0.3771
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 22672 5410
D (interleaver depth) 1435 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 64 255
N (RS codeword size) 64 255
Delay (msec) 8 0
INP (DMT symbol) 3.00 0.00
OH Frames 61711177 14505480
OH Frame Errors 1 839
RS Words 2913159421 727129
RS Correctable Errors 37121 4527
RS Uncorrectable Errors 1 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 4025728151 0
Data Cells 188599601 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 1 550
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 0 0
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Forgot to mention that I know it was reset as interleaved depth was at 1 down 1 up then changed again.is it a case of just letting the line stay stable for a long time and hoping the DLM wil sort it out
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Any help with these latest stats would be appreciated ... Thanks
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Just on another note I am using the billion as modem which is Broadcom ,would this have a negative effect as my cab is ECI
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I'm replying so you don't feel like that you are being ignored. :)
I read the first 14 lines of your statistics, above and it looks quite reasonable. (But I am no expert in pronouncing upon a VDSL2 circuit. For that you need an Eagle, a Wombat, a Penguin or other member of the varied menagerie that gathers here. :angel: )
I would far prefer to use a modem with a Broadcom chipset rather than to attempt to "match" the device at t'other end. In your case, I really don't think there will be a negative effect.
Now where is that Eagle? :whistle:
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Thank you, they did reset it and it changed for 1 day, I will keep the billion connected as my plan is to maintain this connection as I want that DLM to notice , I work away and go on Monday for 3 weeks so will be interesting to see if it has changed when I come home, my main point is that interleaved that's applied even after one good day,my ping is 30+ and very annoying for gaming
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Now the stupid SNR has gone to 12 this is strange
Status
xDSL
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 12.4 12.2
Attenuation (dB) 10.2 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 13.5 -6.6
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 109305 30262
Rate (Kbps) 73265 20000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 51 236
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 64 5
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0226 0.3771
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 22672 5410
D (interleaver depth) 1435 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 64 255
N (RS codeword size) 64 255
Delay (msec) 8 0
INP (DMT symbol) 3.00 0.00
OH Frames 51804582 12176892
OH Frame Errors 7 284
RS Words 377071272 2854989
RS Correctable Errors 147701 2137
RS Uncorrectable Errors 11 0
HEC Errors 4 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 2000515688 0
Data Cells 91579872 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 2 243
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 0 0
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Not being rude but I always thought that kitz forum was the place to get help,maybe not then
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Not being rude but I always thought that kitz forum was the place to get help,maybe not then
I'm sorry you feel that way. ???
Looking at you prior two posts, all I see is a service that is almost operating at its design maximum . . . 73 Mbps DS & 20 Mbps US. The fact that the signal to noise ratio margin is just over 12 dB for both DS and US is because your circuit is operating so well. Essentially you have that extra 6 dB as a "buffer" which would have to be "eroded" before service degradation would become apparent.
It is silly o'clock in the morning and I can hear my bed calling me, so I really don't want to review all of the previous posts to this thread. If you would please post a summary of the help you need, I'll see what I can do later today . . . Unless someone else responds before I am next here.
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Even a top-grade ISP will have limits as to what they can do given the lack of control over the workings of DLM. If Black Sheep is around, he might be able to elaborate on this point. :-(
There are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable people on kitz, but sometimes it comes to a point where our top experts are occupied, and users' difficulties are such that an outstanding ISP is the way to go. (cracked record :-) )
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Apologies for the delay in response.
here are the stats off MDWS
Is 456240DSF you?
Looking at those stats over the past 20 days. I cant see any indication that that particular line has been reset.
INP has been at 3.0 for at least the past 20 days, and interleaving delay also hasn't moved from 8.
Im also confused because that line is showing a current sync of 57728 for the past 11 days which doesnt tie up with stats you posted above.
I was wanting to see what was happening with your SNRm and how much it varied over the course of the day, but I cant see any indication of that either, although there is a break in logging a couple of days ago.
As said in a previous post I'd need to see your SNRm variance before commenting further, but going off your stats alone - certain DLM intervention can cause an increase in SNRm - ie banding - I cant recall the exact figures off hand but Im sure one of the bands is in the 74Mbps region. If you have been banded at 74 then that could account for the 73265 sync with an SNRm of 12dB. Based on the hard stats youve posted I cannot see any reason why DLM should be coming down so hard on you.. and that is why we need to look at SNRm variance and the amount of errored seconds.
The other thing that springs to mind... have you been swapping out routers and/or doing lots of resyncs? If so DLM could be punishing you for that.
A warning that I may not pick up on this immediately - I have so much family stuff going on right now Im not sure if Im coming or going... and am miles behind with forum posts :/
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Thanks for the reply
Is 456240DSF you? Yes that's my stats , I find it strange they do not add up ,the stats I posted are from my billion 8800 ,also I think may have had about 3 resets from swapping equipment and firmware upgrades but that was 3 weeks ago ,I was previously getting 74down and a ping of 12 now it's 60 and ping is 30 so that is what I am trying to resolve,I did think about putting openreach eci modem back in but do not want to DC . I will monitor it, thanks for your help
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I was previously getting 74down and a ping of 12 now it's 60
Now it's 57.73 down.
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So not sure why such a difference between my billion and MDSLweb, also by 74down that was my speed test results
Today is this stats,BT are p00
Status
xDSL
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 12.1 11.9
Attenuation (dB) 10.2 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 13.5 -6.6
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 108199 29759
Rate (Kbps) 73265 20000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 51 236
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 64 5
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0226 0.3771
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 22672 5410
D (interleaver depth) 1435 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 64 255
N (RS codeword size) 64 255
Delay (msec) 8 0
INP (DMT symbol) 3.00 0.00
OH Frames 49922371 11734470
OH Frame Errors 0 358
RS Words 4190192412 3943430
RS Correctable Errors 135815 2657
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 1615733922 0
Data Cells 223611002 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 0 269
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 0 0
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Sorry for being a pain,on a side note the chap that I know around the corner who is 79 is with talk talk and went around and done a firmware upgrade for him on his asus 66u,done a speed test after and his ping was 12ms,so I know my line is rubbish
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Hi
If it's just a ping where you want lower times for gaming, please search forum for the different username to use, which should give you lower ping times more inline with what your wanting.
If you have static external IP, these will not work and you would need to revert to your username and password.
You should not have to repower your router, just drop PPP
I hope it helps
Many thanks
John
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Thanks for the reply
Is 456240DSF you? Yes that's my stats ,
I don't think they are your stats on MDWS.
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Thanks for the reply
Is 456240DSF you? Yes that's my stats ,
I don't think they are your stats on MDWS.
That's what comes up when I logged in
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Thanks for the reply
Is 456240DSF you? Yes that's my stats ,
I don't think they are your stats on MDWS.
I suspect he's registered as sharpz1644 but that user has never uploaded anything :-\
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Yes it's sharpz1644
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If it's just a ping where you want lower times for gaming, please search forum for the different username to use, which should give you lower ping times more inline with what your wanting.
If you have static external IP, these will not work and you would need to revert to your username and password.
You should not have to repower your router, just drop PPP
I'm not sure what this means :(
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Thanks for the reply
Is 456240DSF you? Yes that's my stats ,
I don't think they are your stats on MDWS.
That's what comes up when I logged in
Er, that's the default first person in the list when you initially log on. At that point it is unlikely any data exists from you so it chooses the first user listed instead.
What program are you using to upload then? You chose your own username when you registered remember? As I said earlier, you have never uploaded anything...
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i just thought I could register and see my stats,obviously not sure how to use MDWS
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i just thought I could register and see my stats,obviously not sure how to use MDWS
You have to capture them from your modem and upload them.
An app called DSLStats (http://www.s446074245.websitehome.co.uk/) does this.
Another app HG612-Modem-stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612stats_setup.htm) also does this.
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thanks Dray, I`ve just set it up know, though on dsl web stats says I`m down but not, I shall read more about this, BT lied to me saying they reset the line, think my contract is up and will be binning them,just need to find a good isp, I used claranet when on adsl but when I switched to fibre they were really bad.
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Hi
Sorry, I could not remember the post but here it is for you
I hope it helps
Many thanks
John
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=15260.msg284146#msg284146
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Thank you d2d4j, also My Web stats are now up and running sharpz44
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changed the username and left password as bt but would not connect to the internet
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Looks like the DLM has finally sorted my line out after 34 days uptime, thanks for the help on Kitz.
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.6 6.6
Attenuation (dB) 10.1 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 13.6 -6.8
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 82377 22951
Rate (Kbps) 79987 20000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 239 236
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 23 5
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 0 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0955 0.3771
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 20104 5410
D (interleaver depth) 1 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 240 255
N (RS codeword size) 240 255
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 0.00 0.00
OH Frames 443181912 104171832
OH Frame Errors 76729 18081
RS Words 0 1568216
RS Correctable Errors 0 291205
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 20422 0
OCD Errors 372 0
LCD Errors 372 0
Total Cells 2559382934 0
Data Cells 2727146197 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 7250 12314
Total SES 11 5
Total UAS 38 27
;D ;D ;D