Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: rachael1 on February 25, 2008, 12:16:24 AM
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Hello all,
Please could somebody advise me on the following:
For a couple of years now I have suffered at the hand of my intermittant adsl connection. To cut a long story short, whenever the adsl signal drops (at least twice a day and for anything up to eight hours) so does the signal to my LW radio. Having researched around the subject I decided to see if it was something electrical in my house affecting both the adsl connection and the am frequency, so I switched off the mains power put some batteries in a portable radio and went outside. The noise from the radio was unbearable everywhere I went (despite all my electrical equipment being switched off) except when I stepped into my neighbours garden (we live literally metres from each other) and the signal was as clear as a bell. I assume them that I was stepping in and out of an electromagnetic field. I have no idea what to do about this or to pinpoint what it is that is causing my adsl signal to drop when my neighbour, yards away, experiences no disturbance with his broadband service or his LW radio. I have read the article about REIN but wherever I go with my am radio when the adsl signal is down is similar to a lion roaring. Moreover I have been studying the noise margin on my router stats page (BelkinG+mimo) and the figure never seems to go above 5.9db. Various BT engineers have been to my house and tested the line which they say has little to no noise on it 'well within limits' was the phrase employed. For my sins I am not very technically minded but I am at my wits end and any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.
NB: The radio signal dropout seems to be peculiar to my house alone, my neighbour and I occupy two cottages in a dip on a country lane where the other houses are separated my a good ten to twenty metres and if i drive up and down the road the signal is fine until I come to stop outside my house where it is horrendous, but at my neighbours cottage which backs onto mine it is frustratingly clear. The whole thing is seemingly inexplicable and causing me distress. My husband is a home worker and we are lucky if the adsl works for 30% of the day. Please help!!
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Hi Rachael, and welcome.
So you've got a large pocket of interference which is focused on your house only, and is still present when the mains power is turned off. That's so unusual that I'm tempted to suggest that someone is doing it deliberately. Or maybe the mains supply to a neighbour passes through your property in some way and has a bad connection which is sparking.
I'm afraid I'm baffled here, so maybe someone else will have a better idea.
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Hi Rachael
I'm as baffled as Eric and I do sympathise, having a similar problem, albeit on a much smaller scale. I suffer from bursts of RF interference which I am pretty certain emanate from a sewage pump under the end of my road. Fortunately for me it is only an annoyance, although you'd be surprised how often a burst will coincide a crucial part of a programme, and doesn't seem to affect my ADSL.
As you are in a rural situation I imagine you have overhead electricity supply cables and I wonder, as Eric has suggested, whether there is a fault with either a pole in your garden, or where your drop-wire terminates on the house.
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As a Radio Amateur for many years. In the past I have at other friends (also Hams Radio amateurs) locations suffered a similar experience. I used to operate in my early years on 160 meters the bottom end of the medium wave band. This was also to date me in the period before the Super-grid Hi Voltage power lines criss crossed the nations Countryside. This rendered several sites unusable for our field-day contest competitions in that the super-grid high voltage ironises, (corona effect) etc across the giant insulators either clear glass or ceramic white and the effect is to be observed as probagated directly proportional to the quantity of the water vapour in the air on damp days but when its raining if the insulators mentioned are at the end of the period for which they are due to be cleaned the noise level increases dramatically, in addition whenever it rains then that also at all times produces radiation in the medium wave band which can and does affect normal radio reception. This radiation also produces harmonics or probagation and interference at multiples of the original frequency but at a lower level!
Two things to look into as we have found interference in the past in one case we found interference on medium wave and at 160 meters from a faulty Electricity meter.
and the neighbours cottage may be on a different phase, as all electric suply lines are three phase and alternate groups of houses may be fed from any one of those three phases, the blue, yellow or red phase. This can also be an indication of a mains supply fault dependent on wether the three phase is 'star' or 'delta' feed. Do not confuse these three phase colours with the colour coded mains wires in your houshold supply from the fuse or meter panel.
Hope this gives another possibility.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for your advice. Was extremely interested to read Astral's post about the sewage pump as I think he may have hit the nail on the head. There is a small sewage pump very near to our house that i think may be causing the interference, so this morning i spoke to Welsh Water who were most unhelpful and bounced me back to speak to my electricity company, who told me to speak to the environment agency, who told me to speak to my local environmental health officer who gave me a telephone number for a department concerned with radiation but which turned out to be number for a health insurance company (no irony intended I hope)
I have, however, been out this morning to purchase a NETGEAR DG834GT on the recommendation of a forum member and for once my connection has remained solid (so far anyway - it has only been plugged in for half an hour) but i remain ever hopeful.
Any suggestions on who to contact as regards the pocket of electromagnetism surrounding my house and is it harmful to the health in any degree? As an ex-mining community there are pockets of radon about which can apparently be cancer causing? Is it the same with electromagnetism I wonder? Furthermore if it was found out to be the sewage pump can they do anything about it? Not only do I want a stable ADSL connection but I would actually quite like to listen to my radio once in a while!
Many thanks
Rachael
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Radio interference used to be investigated, for free, many years ago by the Post Office. It is now done by an offshoot of Ofcom;
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/ra179/sec1.htm
I think you have to pay up-front before they will investigate these days. It may be worth wandering about with a portable radio and see if the problem is much worse near the pump. You may then be able to persuade whoever operates it to come and fix it.
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The sewage pump looks like a good possibility. It was naughty of Welsh Water to fob you off, because if their equipment is causing radio interference then they are responsible, and can be required by law to fix the problem.
I don't think you need worry about health problems (although that's just my personal opinion). There very little evidence to support claims that electromagnetism causes health problems, and in no way could it compare with radon, which is a radioactive gas. I think I might be more concerned about the possible dangers of a faulty sewage pump. :)
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If the noise picked up on your radio coinsides with the drop of broadband then you can be very sure thats the cause of the problem.
If you suspect it's the sewage pump I take it this isn't something that runs through your consumer board (fuse box & mains switch). The final thing to try is slowly turning off then on each fuse on the board, or just the mains supply as a whole if you have an older board: all whilst listening to the radio @ 612 khz (mw/am).
One of the main problems with REIN issues is that you can have one item tucked away somewhere generating the interference signal, yet as it's connected to the mains, all the local mains cable acts like the antenna (and one with a power supply built in so making things worse) so you pick up the same volume of interference around a wider area, and the source can be any where inside. It's like listening to a string instument, the noise comes from all of the string almost equaly, but your trying to locate whats causing the string to hum (the bow or finger plucking it
Good grief, I do like my analogies. sometimes I wonder when I read some back, what are you on ? :doh:
Sounds as if this could be your situation. Something (ie the sewage pump) generates the noise, this goes back via the mains a short distance (the supply within your and up to your house).
When using a radio to locate the noise, turn the volume down low when you hear the interference, this make it easyer to hear if it's stronger in any one area
as you go around a suspect area remember to move the radio at 90 degrees horizontaly (and verticaly) just by roughly rotating your hand and wrist a bit. the MW antennea in the radio will pick up signals pointing in one direction better than another (just like when your tuning into a radio station, you sometime need to turn the radio around a bit to get a good reception.
In order to state for certain if the pump is the source then you'll need the interfernce to be on and picked up through the radio, then some one will have to switch the pump off, if the interference goes you've pinpointed the source (sounds like the water company will have to do the switching as it's their equipment which is suspect). Now you've hopefully identified the source you get the next problem...........
As Astral pointed out, the Post Office had the remit to invesgtigate (and power to intervene) with interference issues. Now with a combination of deregulation and the fact we are now swamped with all sorts of elecritical noises and inevitably some stuff may clash with others.
(incidentaly, anyone reading this have a new up to date fancy washing machine which changes programs mid wash ? is you wireless router within a few meters, if so move the router or better still change the channel on the router, I'm being serious this is genuine ! can't mention the make of washer, lets just say think of a thirsty hunting dog :-X)
BT unsuccsesfully tried to get the laws tightened and clarified over this some time ago in anticipation of just this sort of problem. If a source is suspected form a 3rd party, things are very very hazy as to what can be done about it. I've had such a fault to investigate a little while ago, after several visits where I was ther while the inteference poped up, it seemed to possibly come from one of 2 nearby properties. could'nt do anything about it as I didn't have access (& no none would answer the door) :'(
One last thing, it's very easy to suspect overhead cableing be it telephony or mains to a greater degree than other sources. This is because you can see it. last 3 out of 4 interfernce issues i've come across the noice was transmitted back through the underground cabling. So if you ever see an openreach engineer stooping along the pavement with a radio and another small box which makes noises like Sweep from Sooty and Sweep you know what their up to !
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Hello everyone,
Thanks again for all your recommendations, Ofcom link particularly useful. Yet, I have been doing a little more research (people must think I've gone off my rocker sidling around with portable radio whenever the opportunity presents itself) and I actually don't think it is the sewage pump. Firstly it seems that when my ADSL doppped out for three hours or so yesterday afternoon and then again go for four hours in the evening, I went round to pump site (trespassed, I confess) and there was not anywhere near as much inteference there as around my house and the lane outside so I have all but ruled it out. As such the hunt continues.
As a side issue my new Netgear which I switched on at midday yesterday didn't make a jot of difference, have attached some router stats of what happened if anyone is kind enough to take a look and explain - the flatlining occurs at the same time my adsl signal drops and the radio has terrible interference, as you can see not a good day for internet access...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Have you been able to get any idea of the direction the interference is coming from, by turning the radio in different directions? Unless you're right on top of the source you should be able to get an idea of the direction by turning the radio round for maximum signal, then the source will be on a line at right angles to the radio. If you do this from several different positions you might (with luck) end up with a series of lines which meet up more or less at a point, which is where the interference is coming from.
(Perhaps you may need to reassure the neighbours that you haven't really gone mad. :) )
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FWIW - I've found that different routers 'handle' noise better than others. For my noisy line (different situation than yours) switching from Netgear to 2Wire then finally Thomson Speedtouch sorted out all my problems.
The 2Wire is the only manufacturer that I've found that actually mentions in their blurb that it can cope with electrical and RF noise well.
I appreciate you want to really find the source of your noise, but in the meantime you may be able to get a more stable adsl connection by changing routers.
Like your husband I also work from home - so £30 or so to try a different router was well worth it to me.
Just a thought...
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I belive you have definately identified that you have a full REIN issue, this is beyond typical snr issues.
I think you best bet is to raise a fault with your ISP to get a broadband engineer out (idealy one who can specificaly cover REIN, there's not many)
I'm afraid with most ISP's you'll get the run around of "turn the router on/off, try the in the test socket (although this lst one is ALWAYS a must if you havn't tried it) at the master socket, etc,etc.
If the engineer you get can only test the broadband as is without specificaly looking at REIN then they need to close their job with a clear code 69.0 or 69.5 can't remember which ones which (REIN faults are rare and this clear code is tucked away and not to well known of, I seem to remember someone on this forum stating just such a comment).
It may be round the houses but unfortunately it's the procedure as the vast majority of people wouldn't know about REIN let alone how to identifi thats the issue they have.
And make sure if the ISP gets an appointment to try to get the appointment time which overlaps an anticipated time of interference.
The only other thing is can you try testing the dsl with a laptop and borrowing a usb powered modem (quiet a few people have one lying around after buting their own router) you don't need to worry about the user name and password, you'll just be looking for a sync light (dsl light) althouhg you may have to load some software from the modem in order for your laptop to talk to the modem)
This way you can try switching off more equipment in the house to see if sync pops up again, including your pc equipment. Last REIN fault I was able to solve it turned out to be one of the end users lcd computer monitors, turned the power off to it, noise disapeared, dsl sync'ed moment later & everyones snr improved to a better & better figure over the next 5 min's.
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Hello everyone,
Thanks everybody for all their help. You will be pleased to know that I have tracked down the source of all my ADSL problems - a portable television in a house on the opposite side of the lane from me. Through sheer serendipity I saw the old woman who lives there switch her portable TV off from my bedroom window and low and behold my radio went growl and the ADSL dropped. So I got router stats up and did some covert surveillance (spying in layman's terms), went into the street turning the radio around several times and eventually plucked up the courage (well my husband did) to knock on the door and ask her turn the TV on and off a few times while we put the radio on, the second she switched the TV off the radio signal went clear and I nearly wept, after all this time - a portable TV of all things, just goes to show...
Anyway the offending article was a 14in TV DVD combination by a manufacturer called Cello (not music to my ears if you will excuse the pun) so beware.
The TV is now in my outhouse awaiting skipping and tomorrow I am purchasing my neighbour a new portable to make up for the inconvenience. So dodgy portable TVs can be added to the long list of eletrical appliances that can interfere with ADSL.
Regards to all
Rachael
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Well done Rachael, that looks like a result. And very kind of you to buy your neighbour a replacement TV. :)
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I love a story with a happy ending. :)
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Thats excellent news that you found the source, its good of you to replace the neighbours appliance.. but I suppose at the end of the day if it sorts something that has proved to be a real PITA then cost doesnt much come into it.
>> So dodgy portable TVs can be added to the long list of eletrical appliances that can interfere with ADSL.
Along with the dodgy music system that we had reported on these forums by someone else last year :/
Thanks for letting us know, and sharing with us.
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I've seen goods branded "Cello" a few times - can't remember where but I think one of the supermarkets was selling something branded Cello - it looked pretty cheap and nasty to be honest.
Makes me wonder about these "RF interference - meets standards blah blah" statements you get with electrical equipment - either a. how loose and ineffectual the standards are or b. <cynic warning> how well the models that come off the batch production line perform, compared with the prototype they submitted for testing! </cynic warning!>
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Great to see you got a result, And very good of you to offer to buy her a replacement. :thumbs:
What was her inital reaction when your husband explained what you where up to. In a nearby RAF base there was a similar problem, knocked out several broadband lines in 2 blocks. After several visits by a few engineers it was pin-pointed to a coperals TV. Every thing was fine for the 1st 15 min's of use, but once the tv had warmed up; "My internet's dead" >:(,"and mine" :o, "my e-mails stopped" :-\,"damm thing stopped again" :'(, "where's my porn.....ahh!" :-[ :lol:
I think in that case he was pressured into getting himself a new tv
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In reply to Ezzer,
She took the news well but also looked a tad bewildered as we tried to explain that her television was the cause of our internet failing to work. As she is an old lady living on her own (her husband has only recently passed away) I didn't want to burden her with the responsibility of going out and buying a new TV. The portable TV causing the disturbance was in her kitchen and she used it for several hours a day sometimes leaving it on just for company. When we took her new TV set to her yesterday she insisted on giving us half the cost which we accepted but to be perfectly honest didn't really want.
Ethically speaking, I think in this case we were right to replace it on her behalf. Had it been somebody younger and had it affected several people's connections then I would be tempted to ask the party involved to get it replaced. I must say, however, it is a thorny issue especially where neighbours are concerned, faulty as some equipment might be I'm not sure if it is any neighbour's responsibilty to ensure you have an ADSL connection. All round it would have been a much better situation and perhaps more swiftily resolved if an impartial party had observed the interference and having tracked it down, approached the neighbour instead. Yet having put this point forward, I had at least five different Openreach engineers at my property over the years and not one even mentioned REIN or EMI, about time BT had some more training to identify these problems methinks.
NB: Luckily enough we managed to replace the TV for under £100, had it been a £1000 plasma job I think there may have been a problem.
Rachael
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Just thought, fingers crossed hopefully the new one won't do the same!!!
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Very interesting, but how does this problem actually happen ?
Does a component in the TV, (or is it in the PSU of the TV) generate interference in the 612khz region ?
which then feeds back via the mains cables and then up the mains cables to Rachael1's house ?
Or is the interference airbound and broadcast over the airways into Rachael1's property ?
I've read http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm but what components actually generate this and how does the resulting interference travel ?
Would it be a one off faulty TV or is every TV of that particular model likely to be faulty and are the manufacturers breaking the law ?
Any links to more in depth info welcome.
Thanks.
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All of the above.......
Generally every electrical appliance will leak some energy as radio waves. Accross a wide range of frequencies to a degree, but particuarly over certain frequencies in particular, depending on the natural harmonies of particular components.
The problem occurs when something may generate excessive noise which another piece of equipment may be in harmony with, also if i'ts the right noise it may inhibit what the innocent article is reciving. you could be in a room having a conversation with someone, the backround music is heard at a similar volume but bears little effect on the conversation. Now replace this with the same volume of other speech and this becomes distracting, eventualy effecting the ease of conversation your having.
This is normaly caused by an item which isn't working as it should, so when it's either switched on or working harder, the right noise in the right range may affect amongst some things like your broadband
As broadband is asking such a large amount of delecate data it can be one of those things which the sensitivity is really noticeable in this case.
Is it a component or psu ? luck of the draw, anything which uses electrical current is a potential generator of a problem. The more energy it draws the more likely it will cause a problem.
Is it broadcast through the air or back via mains cable ? either.
If you had a radio reciver which would listen to a wide range of frequencies at the same time you'll find we are awash with a wide range of radio noise.
Ever been in a room where one loud brash person distracts you from your conversation or listening, thats in human terms REIN
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I switched a portable radio onto 612khz and was amazed walking around the house all the noises coming off dimmer switches, old telephones, TV (only on standby), energy efficient light bulbs.
Rachael1 found alot of noise on the radio and had a problem with her broadband.
I suppose it is also equally likely that someone could walk around their house with a similar level of noise to Rachael1 on the radio, but not experience any problem with the broadband.
Thanks.
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Well, yes, the radio is just being used as a diagnostic helper. It's not definitive, but it does help to pinpoint where the interference is coming from.
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It's normal to pick up noises every where near electrical appliances via this method, what your looking for is a distinct noise which still exists beyond quarter to half a meter away. try this by an lcd screen. you should hear a distinct buzz which fades away as you move the radio away