Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: NewtronStar on May 05, 2015, 11:52:17 PM
-
Hi guys as my current FTTC product is with BT and i am in the process to migrate to EE now an email has come in to show £6.00 for modem/router thats what we agreed on but below this I see a £50 charge for FTTC activation thats come out of the blue.
We were already charged £50 by BT to activate FTTC on my line 3 years ago why would EE charge another £50 to activate FTTC on my line.
Have been onto EE and they say it's £25 for fttc activation, is this the norm when migratin from an ISP on FTTC to another ???.
I have only 6 days left to cancel so please respond quickly thanks.
-
iirc when I checked the BTWholesale price list the other day, FTTC migration is £11 + VAT
-
iirc when I checked the BTWholesale price list the other day, FTTC migration is £11 + VAT
Thanks thats £13.20 including VAT knowhere near the £25 EE are asking for that's a rip off.
-
Has been £11.00 since November 2014 also the Min term contract for FTTC >>FTTC migrations is now only 1 month min term ,for migrations where the EU has had FTTC service for the past 12mths that is both Openreach GEA and Wholesale t &c's as from Nov 2014
So far none of the mass market ISP's have started passing these on , AAISP do a 6mth Min term and activation fee is proportionate @£15, I think Pulse8 do a no contract FTTC product range, but like AAISP is usage capped and they charge £30 activation,
-
iirc when I checked the BTWholesale price list the other day, FTTC migration is £11 + VAT
Thanks thats £13.20 including VAT knowhere near the £25 EE are asking for that's a rip off.
That's half of what plusnet charge if you don't move line rental to them( £50.00 ) even for migrations !!! and a 18mths tie in :ouch:
-
Its a £1 charge to Migrate using a (MAC) to aa fftc home1 ;)
-
Its a £1 charge to Migrate using a (MAC) to aa fftc home1 ;)
AA have been charging a lower fee for quite some time, Adrian makes reference to it in one of his rants , shame they will never do unlimited as i have a lot of respect for him and his company, in particular with his stance on snooping and censorship web blocking ect
-
AA have been charging a lower fee for quite some time, Adrian makes reference to it in one of his rants , shame they will never do unlimited
Cheers i didnt know this that you would be charged a fibre activation charge when moving to another provider, just thought that was a one of fee when moving from ADSL to FTTC it never crossed my mind i would be charged again as i am still using the BTw FTTC product the only difference is the usage is unlimited.
-
Many thanks for all your quick replys it was very helpful during my call to EE this morning and was able to negotiate a very good activation fee :)
It's no wonder people don't migrate to often with their contact is up to another provider when faced with an undisclosed fee of £50 to activate FTTC when moving your FTTC to another FTTC provider.
-
Happy that you managed to negotiate a deal for the activation costs :)
-
I have a question regarding switch over from BT to EE, during the long conversation the activation fee comes from the Openreach engineer having to goto the exchange and switch the line over to EE/orange is that true ?
As I don't have any LLU providers on my line number and it's just basic BTw FTTC i find the above hard to believe.
-
For migration of any xDSL service (i.e. G.Dmt, ADSL2, ADSL2+ or VDSL2) to VDSL2 there is nothing to be done at the exchange. The "loosing" supplier turns off the service in software and the "gaining" supplier turns on the service in software.
In the "fibre cabinet" there is a low-pass filter for each circuit which serves two purposes:
- To stop the VDSL2 signal travelling down the E-side cable back to the exchange.
- To stop any G.Dmt, ADSL2 or ADSL2+ signal originating from exchange based equipment travelling down the D-side cable to the end-user.
Attached below is an image showing the bank of low-pass filters installed in a Huawei equipped cabinet. (Fitted with a Huawei SmartAX MA5603T MSAN, with the potential for 288 circuits.)
-
For migration of any xDSL service (i.e. G.Dmt, ADSL2, ADSL2+ or VDSL2) to VDSL2 there is nothing to be done at the exchange. The "loosing" supplier turns off the service in software and the "gaining" supplier turns on the service in software.
Thats what i thought B*CAT and why i argued with the EE support section there is now need for the OR Engineer to visit the exchange to switch the line from BT to EE have to :D with the lack of training and knowledge the telephone BB support has these days.
I am not sure what your hinting at with this filter as the exchange that supplies the E-side to my fibre cabinet comes from a different exchange that supplies the voice/telephoney they both end up in my PCP cabinet number 1 (D-side to my premises)
-
iirc when I checked the BTWholesale price list the other day, FTTC migration is £11 + VAT
sadly although ofcom have regulated the wholesale FTTC migration process, I see not a single Retailer has adjusted.
On migration the wholesale fee is £11 and only 1 month commit, but retailers still have 12+ month commits with activation fee's.
Another clear sign of market failure but ofcom dont seem keen to regulate at the retail level.
-
I am not sure what your hinting at with this filter as the exchange that supplies the E-side to my fibre cabinet comes from a different exchange that supplies the voice/telephoney they both end up in my PCP cabinet number 1 (D-side to my premises)
All VDSL2 circuits have a low-pass filter associated with them. Ignoring from whence the fibre-optic feed to the DSLAM originates (i.e. the the fibre head-end), the low-pass filters are relevant to the metallic pathway. There is actually one very big third reason for the low-pass filters' existence (so big, I overlooked it in my posting, above) and that is to stop the metallic pathway back to the telephony serving exchange (the E-side cable) acting as a bridging tap across the VDSL2 circuit!
-
Another clear sign of market failure but ofcom dont seem keen to regulate at the retail level.
It sure does Chry but was a able to get around this fee under the sales act clause ;)
that is to stop the metallic pathway back to the telephony serving exchange (the E-side cable) acting as a bridging tap across the VDSL2 circuit!
Think i understand now.
-
For migration of any xDSL service (i.e. G.Dmt, ADSL2, ADSL2+ or VDSL2) to VDSL2 there is nothing to be done at the exchange. The "loosing" supplier turns off the service in software and the "gaining" supplier turns on the service in software.
Thats what i thought B*CAT and why i argued with the EE support section there is now need for the OR Engineer to visit the exchange to switch the line from BT to EE have to :D with the lack of training and knowledge the telephone BB support has these days.
I am not sure what your hinting at with this filter as the exchange that supplies the E-side to my fibre cabinet comes from a different exchange that supplies the voice/telephoney they both end up in my PCP cabinet number 1 (D-side to my premises)
For info ......... any ADSL migration of ISP, there does have to be Exchange work carried out. The amount of work depends on whether it is an MPF order (Both PSTN and ADSL provided by the same CP), or if it's an SMPF order (Two separate providers for PSTN and ADSL).
For VDSL migration ............ no Exchange work is required. However, there may be associated work involved at the Exchange such as removing the old ADSL 'ties' to free up a spare for the ISP. :)
-
Sure thats what i told the ISP CS BS ,this is not an ADSL circuit moving to FTTC (New FTTC install) it's just plain old BTw FTTC to new ISP with BTw FTTC, would there still be any ADSL ties left over it would explain my odd tones/bitloading graph in D1 band it's like the big dipper.
-
The picture below depicts a typical SMPF jumpering layout on our MDF (Main Distribution Frame). The circuit starts its journey at the particular block providing the CP's dial-tone (PSTN) .................. by using 'jumper wires' (Just a 2pr wire really), the Exchange Engineer then connects the dial-tone to the 'ADSL in' block of the ISP providing the broadband (ADSL).
By doing so, it means the dial-tone is sent to the ISP's broadband equipment (Sited somewhere in the Exchange), and is combined with the broadband circuit. Both dial-tone and broadband (PSTN & ADSL) then appear at the 'ADSL out' block on the MDF. From here, it is then 'jumpered' to the Bar/Pair which is basically the allocated pair of fuses feeding the EU's premises via the Cabinet.
If the circuit is an MPF (SKY, Tiscali, AOL, etc etc ....), both dial-tone and broadband are generated at the same block. However, as we (OR) need the ability to be able to test OLO's (Other Licensed Operators) circuits for faulting reasons, the circuit needs to be jumpered through our TAMS (Test Access Matrix System) to be able to achieve this.
So for this example ...... in the diagram below, substitute the ADSL in and out blocks, for TAMS in and out blocks.
I hope you can appreciate where the Exchange work is needed, whenever a change of circs takes place due to migration on ADSL services. :)
-
Sure thats what i told the ISP CS BS ,this is not an ADSL circuit moving to FTTC (New FTTC install) it's just plain old BTw FTTC to new ISP with BTw FTTC, would there still be any ADSL ties left over it would explain my odd tones/bitloading graph in D1 band it's like the big dipper.
I realise yours was a VDSL migrate, just putting the info up regarding the ADSL situation, NS. :)
Even if the ADSL ties were left in, the filtering at the VDSL cab would mean they would have no effect on the circuit.
-
Bit more info on the filtering of DSL at the Fibre Cab .............. :)
1) Schematic
2) Splitter/Filter
3) Connection strip filter connects to
-
This is just hardware heaven stop it BS i'm drooling :blush:
-
Ha ha ..... ;D ;D ;D
-
In the schematic i can see two filters one for DSL and another for the PSTN is that correct
And thats why the phone worked with only the B-leg connected and modem would not connect because the A-Leg was not connected well it was but to the earth on the BT80b.
-
Oh dear it would seem i have lost G.INP during the migration or the bright box 2 is not g.inp capable and switched me back to interleaving, so have setup the HG612 as modem and BB2 as router.
-
I wonder if the migration has triggered a DLM reset? DLM resets now appear to remove g.inp from the line.
-
kitz as I said in the other thread my thoery is EE use a different stability profile to BT.
-
I wonder if the migration has triggered a DLM reset? DLM resets now appear to remove g.inp from the line.
If the same product was ordered ie 80/20 why would it, as wbmc to wbmc migration is just a software change so that it routes from wholesale to the new ISP ,? But as Chrys has pointed out they may order with a different DLM stability option to BT's choice, But how that would pan out i don't know, The bb2 apparently has a broadcom chipset
-
Yep I read and replied to this post before I saw NS's post in the other thread.
I should imagine that a change of stability level would reset the DLM, because it will now have different profile parameters.
-
Thanks for explanation i am still recovering from the shock G.INP has been taken away from me but more relaxed about what happend.
At the moment i am hoping the DLM intervenes and increases the interleaving that should lower the errored seconds.
Does anyone know EE DLM stability level is it higher or lower than BT's ?
-
As mentioned in the other thread last night we were asking for your stats ASAP.
I think you said you had a higher sync than you've ever had, so why not cap your sync rather than wait for interleaving. The idea was if you could act during that first day window, you may end up with a decent sync, no interleaving and a higher snrm which would help stabilise their err secs.
This is why I said yesterday you may be able to use the reset to your advantage, as long as you act quick enough.
-
As mentioned in the other thread last night we were asking for your stats ASAP.
I think you said you had a higher sync than you've ever had, so why not cap your sync rather than wait for interleaving. The idea was if you could act during that first day window, you may end up with a decent sync, no interleaving and a higher snrm which would help stabilise their err secs.
The higher sync was when i was using the BB2 as modem the sync was 35600 kbps that gave me a thoughput of 33000 kbps but on the HG612 the sync is 33172 with a thoughput of 30192.
I am not interested to get a higher sync rate or lower latency all i want is the errored seconds close to what is was when G.INP was enabled a stable broadband on a long and noisy line.
Have a look at the stats kitz and will notice 17 for DS and 8 for US interleaving on a new DLM configuration (new profile) its the same profile after the line was reset on the old BT ISP way back in Feburary
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6965 Kbps, Downstream rate = 32168 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 6984 Kbps, Downstream rate = 33172 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 5.8 6.0
Attn(dB): 24.8 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 11.2 3.5
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 243 223
M: 1 1
T: 64 38
R: 10 10
S: 0.2341 1.0185
L: 8680 1838
D: 17 8
I: 254 117
N: 254 234
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 31835353 234754
OHFErr: 14675 52
RS: 2037445635 1953759
RSCorr: 646603 318
RSUnCorr: 127378 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 69326 0
OCD: 3343 0
LCD: 3343 0
Total Cells: 3339909035 0
Data Cells: 8076374 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 2774 39
SES: 0 0
UAS: 76 76
AS: 119713
Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 1 1
PER: 3.76 9.71
OR: 51.06 26.35
AgR: 33223.29 7010.42
Bitswap: 66526/66573 28/28
Total time = 1 days 9 hours 16 min 29 sec
FEC: 646603 318
CRC: 14675 52
ES: 2774 39
SES: 0 0
UAS: 76 76
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 29 sec
FEC: 43 0
CRC: 1 0
ES: 1 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 1340 0
CRC: 15 0
ES: 11 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 9 hours 16 min 29 sec
FEC: 28256 161
CRC: 995 28
ES: 536 22
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 618347 157
CRC: 13680 24
ES: 2238 17
SES: 0 0
UAS: 76 76
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 1 days 9 hours 15 min 11 sec
FEC: 646603 318
CRC: 14675 52
ES: 2774 39
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#
-
is there anyone with a low sync on fast path? I wonder if the default profile changes if high attenuation?
Also on the hauwei's with g.inp removed from new DLM changes did they reactivate fast path?
-
Consider yourselves lucky for those lowly fees ;D
AAISP charged me £100 to regrade from their ADSL service to FTTC. I assumed that was to pay for the OR modem and agent visit but never got an alternative option. Wires only would have suited me as the engineer gave me the plug to insert and then watched as I plugged in my router and configured it! Shame I got an ECI on a Huwaei cabinet as not long afterwards it seems G.INP may have been enabled at the cab!
Steve
-
is there anyone with a low sync on fast path? I wonder if the default profile changes if high attenuation?
Also on the hauwei's with g.inp rmeoved from new DLM changes did they reactivate fast path?
Theres me thinking you had all the answers we all in the same boat we just don't know !
I am going to take time off and stop monitoring my line stats for while and just use the BB2 as it was intended to be used as an all in one VDSL2 modem and router.
Just before i go here are the BB2 DSL line stats :P
-
I am not interested to get a higher sync rate or lower latency all i want is the errored seconds close to what is was when G.INP was enabled a stable broadband on a long and noisy line.
But irrc, the err/secs werent sufficient for the DLM to be bothered about (at least on the old system anyway).
If you really do want less E/S then the way to go is capping your sync, which will reduce your Err/Secs. There's a couple of regs that already cap their sync to stop the DLM applying interleaving (They get more E/Secs than you do).
-
Just before i go here are the BB2 DSL line stats :P
That looks like you are using it in router only mode - not combined vdsl modem/router.
--------
ETA
I note you've now changed the image and uploaded a different one.
-
notice on the BB2 stats, the interleaved stats are -, he only has fast path data. Interesting.
Newt is latency lower when using that device?
-
notice on the BB2 stats, the interleaved stats are -, he only has fast path data. Interesting.
Newt is latency lower when using that device?
No the latency increases by 10ms on the BB2 (35ms) the HG612 give me (25ms) but the BB2 gives me 2000kbps more thoughput on the DS and 900kbps more on the US i just don't understand why this is.
-
Then I give up :)
-
Consider yourselves lucky for those lowly fees ;D
AAISP charged me £100 to regrade from their ADSL service to FTTC. I assumed that was to pay for the OR modem and agent visit but never got an alternative option. Wires only would have suited me as the engineer gave me the plug to insert and then watched as I plugged in my router and configured it! Shame I got an ECI on a Huwaei cabinet as not long afterwards it seems G.INP may have been enabled at the cab!
Steve
Thats kind of steep currytop when i moved from ADSL Max to VDSL2 the charge was £50 that was nearly three years ago.
-
Also on the hauwei's with g.inp removed from new DLM changes did they reactivate fast path?
Aardvark was previously g.inp enabled, but had it removed after a DLM reset by the engineer. He's found himself back on interleaved path but depth 1.
-
Kitz will you keep us upto date when G.INP is rolled out again as it's very unlikely i'll have any compatible stats monitoring hardware i'm just fed up with this G.INP On/Off and Fastpath On/Off stuff sometime it's better not knowing what your profile is as long as the internet works that all we need to know.
-
notice on the BB2 stats, the interleaved stats are -, he only has fast path data. Interesting.
Newt is latency lower when using that device?
NS has changed the stats image so I can see what you mean now.
Thats the first time Ive seen a VDSL connection use FAST path, although that laylout of stats is typical of the Brightbox.
Note that the PATHS are entirely separate things to bearer channels so we must not get them confused.
It is entirely possible to use RS on FAST path, its just something Ive never seen BT do before, even back in the days of ADSL1.
It is interesting to note that only the upstream is seeing FECs and downstream is showing CRC but no FEC. That to me would imply that NS's line has no interleaving but it does have RS encoding applied to upstream only.
Bearing in mind we know that BT are currently dabbling with removing interleaving from the upstream but those users on the trials are reporting no decrease in sync speed.
This would appear to be similar to what we are seeing here on NS's line with the BB2. His downstream sync will be less because of the increased overheads of RS encoding. His downstream is would appear to be running at full pelt because of no interleaving or RS encoding and why his downstream is able to achieve a higher sync.
In a weird way it looks like NS may have picked up one of the test profiles, because what we are seeing here sounds remarkably like what BT are 'playing with' when they are removing interleaving to replace previous g.inp lines.
No the latency increases by 10ms on the BB2 (35ms)
Now this is weird, because I cannot see any trace of interleaving in those (limited) stats.
NS can you post a tracert to the BBC please.
-
Kitz will you keep us upto date when G.INP is rolled out again as it's very unlikely i'll have any compatible stats monitoring hardware i'm just fed up with this G.INP On/Off and Fastpath On/Off stuff sometime it's better not knowing what your profile is as long as the internet works that all we need to know.
Yep I will do.
I was promised some info last week, but now its all gone very quiet :(
-
Thats the first time Ive seen a VDSL connection use FAST path,
I note from another thread that BT do appear to be using FAST path in the trials, Interestingly there's also someone else this morning who appears to have picked up one of the 'test profiles' despite not being on the trial - link (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15471.msg247854.html#new).
-
NS can you post a tracert to the BBC please.
Yes indeed here it is sorry for the delay just in from work.
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.104]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms BrightBox.ee [192.168.1.254]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 * * * Request timed out.
4 17 ms 16 ms 17 ms a213-1-121-13.imsnet3.btopenworld.com [213.1.121.13]
5 28 ms 28 ms 29 ms 213.1.78.58
6 29 ms 28 ms 28 ms 87.237.20.128
7 28 ms 29 ms 29 ms bbc-linx.pr01.thdow.bbc.co.uk [195.66.224.103]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 30 ms 29 ms 29 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
10 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms 132.185.255.165
11 30 ms 30 ms 29 ms fmt-vip133.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.104]
Trace complete.
-
there is a 15ms jump from hop4 to hop 11 so its not all line latency.
You sure latency was lower on the hg612 whilst still on EE?
-
there is a 15ms jump from hop4 to hop 11 so its not all line latency.
You sure latency was lower on the hg612 whilst still on EE?
Yeap at that time the HG612 was getting 25ms, but Chry i can deffo say the latency bounces all over the place it may be a good time to setup a TTB ping thingy.