Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: MikeS on February 20, 2008, 05:17:14 PM
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Hi
I knew I shouldn't have posted a noise margin graph a few days ago
My line went pear shaped day before yesterday, voice line crackly, dsl dropping. Today BT came and switched pairs and cleaned up the voice line. However I am now syncing now at 160K down and 320K up with what looks like a target margin of 9dB, despite the line attenuation having improved by 6dB. For the last 8 weeks I have been syncing at 4000-4500 with an IP profile of 3000-3500 and a target SNR of 6. Phoned Plusnet who said the reason was that because my line had been dropping and as I had been trying different routers the DSLAM had cut my sync rate, so I should leave my router on and wait three days and it should go up
My experience with noisy lines has been that the sync rate didn't change to this extent. I may have gone from 4000 to 2000 during noisy periods. The method used to control downstream speed was to reduce the IP profile, which would go down to 250K in very noisy periods and maybe increase SNR margin.
I guess my question is - is the sync rate determined by what the line can support, or does the DSLAM say 'despite the fact that the line can support higher speeds I am going to physically reduce sync speed because of recent poor performance' . By this I mean actually reduce sync speed directly rather than reducing IP profile or increasing SNR margin
Basically I don't want to waste three days at 160K if the Plusnet advice is wrong. Any thought welcome
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DSLAMs don't make executive decisions in that way. Your router negotiates with the DSLAM to get the highest speed which can be achieved for the target noise margin. This will depend on the attenuation and the amount of interference (noise). What are your current router stats?
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Stats are as shown below
Connection Status Connected
Us Rate (Kbps) 320
Ds Rate (Kbps) 160
US Margin 6
DS Margin 9
Trained Modulation ADSL_G.dmt
LOS Errors 0
DS Line Attenuation 48
US Line Attenuation 30
Peak Cell Rate 754 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast 0
CRC Tx Fast 0
CRC Rx Interleaved 5
CRC Tx Interleaved 0
Path Mode Interleaved
DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count 0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count 0
My understanding was that the DSLAM/router negociated the highest sync speed for the line conditions. The actual download speed would then be modified by the IP profile in place at the time, mine will almost certainly be rubbish due to the disconnections I have had. If that is the case then waiting 3 days will be a waste of time. Is there any way that switching pairs could confuse the DSLAM or does it look as if there is yet another fault somewhere. I should say that I am coming directly out of the master socket and have tried 3 routers and three filters
I can't get on the BT speed tester to find my IP profile, but I would guess it is 250 ish.
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On the face of it, those stats don't make any sense. You should get a much higher connection speed, in the region of what you had before. Waiting three days isn't going to make any difference - it's your actual connection speed which is the problem, not the IP profile. I think you're going to have to go back to PlusNet and make it clear that the connection speed is much too low, so the IP profile is never going to recover until this is fixed.
(I'm assuming that you haven't changed anything else at your end, and you're still using the same filters in the same places, etc.)
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Yes you are correct in terms of filters etc. I'll have another go at them. What I was told did not make sense to me, but I wanted to check it out with the experts before going back to Plusnet.
Thanks for the input Roseway
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Good luck :)
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Mike, Have you managed to make any progress on this? What did PlusNet say when you went back to them, out of interest?
Sounds like bad advice in the first instance there from PlusNet. Even if you didn't tell them the SNR was still at 6dB, the customer service bod should still have taken more notice of the extreme drop in sync rate, or they maybe didn't understand that you were referring to the sync rate rather than simply transfer rate (huge benefit of doubt given there, I know. I don't doubt that you made it clear it was your sync rate that had dropped!).
DSLAMs can, in extreme circumstances, drop your line sync to the equivalent of a fixed-rate connection, the telltale sign there is the upstream sync would fall to 288kbps there... like I say this is when your line is extremely unstable - and is known as a "chronic flapper" apparently :lol:
It sounds to me like you've got a major line problem, like you say in the post title! If it's still the same in the test socket behind the master faceplate, or at least with all extensions disconnected from the master socket, if possible, then it needs referring to BT. Just push your ticket back to Plusnet - it will get passed to BT soon enough... you could even include a link to this forum topic as I know a few of their staff do read this forum from time to time :)
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Hi Chris
I have pushed the issue back to Plusnet. All I've got from them so far (a day ago) is -
Test result summary: Inconclusive
We have not been able to complete the checks of your broadband service. This may be the result of a fault in the testing system rather than your service
Not too helpful. My experience with Plusnet is that once you get their attention they are very helpful, however getting their attention takes time. I'm feeling more than a bit frustrated as this issue arose due to a pair swop by BT, so I feel that it ought to get a bit of priority.
The line seems stable. Routerstats shows only very small 1dB blips in SN margin throughout the day/night. The attenuation on the line is 6dB better than the old one. I've tried 4 routers, only AR7 chipset routers will connect, my speedtouch's (510 & 546) will not connect.
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When you say pair swap, by any chance do you know if this was between say the exchange and cabinet/pcp/scp, or from the cab to dp (usually a pole)
Otherwise was it a pair change within a cable length between 2 joints ?
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The engineer said that the line was clear from the top of the road to the exchange but was noisy from the top of the road to the cab about 50 yds from my house. So I assume he swapped pairs between two cabs at the top and bottom of my road - a pair change within a cable length between two joints (cabs)
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Hi Mike,
I'd like to have a look at this and see who needs educating internally, and of course try to get to the bottom of your issues. Can you let me know your account name or a ticket number on there and I'll have a look.
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Hi Chris
The ticket number is ID: 24232031. Just had a reply from the support team which seems to be a bit of a proforma job. For me the issue was that immediately the pairs were swopped my sync went down to 160 from 3000+. I'm coming out of the master socket via a face plate splitter directly to the router, nothing had changed my end in equipment terms before and after the swop. I have since tried different routers/filters some won't connect (Speedtouch) but the DLink and SAR will but at only 160K
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by cab thats the green box you sometimes see around (although some can be cable tv, mobiles, electricity, water), A 50 yard run sounds like a pair change from the cab to a joint (possibly an underground dp which feeds your property.)
This would be done if the fault causing the noise on your normal telephony can't be got at and probably mid cable lenght, thats when a good spare pair may be sought out to sort the problem. Ther's a chance that the pair you'r on now (although ok for now for normal telephony) could be effected by the same issue which effected the previous pair but is only brought out on your broadband. I which case the best route is raising this with your ISP so a broadband engineer to come out to look at another pair, but tested with broadband as well as pstn.
That's assuming there is a good spare, if not....That can poss be a whole new can of worms
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Looking at your account we should be able to raise this to BT for investigation as the current sync rate is below the fault threshold rate they set for your line.
If you can reply to the ticket just to nudge it back in our direction (letting us know you've tried a different router, filter etc) I'll ensure one the speed fault analysts picks this up for you.
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Thanks for that Chris
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Well, 8 days on from the fault, still at 160K. Plusnet were talking about getting the line back in training mode, as that would confirm whether it was a DSLAM issue or not. Why does it take so long, it is becoming a serious pain.
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It seems to be a bit of a pain for ISPs to get BT to do this, for some reason.
Is there evidence on your ticket that it's been escalated to BT yet?
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Last comment was on Sunday morning the 24th Feb
The Question 24232031 has been released from hold and sent back to BOT - DSL Logged Faults - Speed
Your fault Ticket has now been taken off hold.
This has now been forwarded to the relevant support team. We will carry on investigating your problem and your open fault will be updated as soon as more information is available.
[INTERNAL]
Ticket now off hold. Please action.
Had a phone call, I think on Sunday, to say they were going to try to get my line back into training mode. Don't know if that has been done, if it has it obviously hasn't worked
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Well I'm still on 160K sync after raising the issue on the 21st Feb. The Plusnet response to my asking what progress has been made with the issue was
The broadband fault has been closed by the supplier. Should problems re-occur, please restart the Broadband Fault Checker.
Are they deliberately winding me up. I'm regretting making positive remarks about Plusnet in the past. This is pathetic customer service. I've asked three times since Wednesday what progress is being made - no reply to three emails - now I'm told the issue has been closed. This is really totally crass customer service. Plusnet you should be ashamed of yourselves
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That's pretty poor actually.
Unfortunately BT will close off line faults - it seems that the PN faults procedure relies on the supplier getting the resolution correct before closing it off.. as it *should* be a reasonably automatable process.
However they really ought to check with the customer that the problem has been resolved before closing the ticket.. to not do so is bad customer relations. I hope they aren't focussing on ticket closure targets too much :(
When you say you've had no reply to three emails... do you mean you were adding to your ticket question and not getting anywhere?
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I was adding to my question, asking what progress was being made with my problem. I simply don't understand why the fault was closed by BTW when at 160K my sync speed is below the BTW acceptable performance level for DSL, nor can I understand why Plusnet have not been more aggressive in pursuing this issue. I pay line rental to BT and it's about time that they accepted that the line, in a great many cases, is used for voice and dsl and to fix one and 'break' the other is not acceptable.
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Just read this thread for the first time - what a nightmare :'(
Shame the PN rep that showed some interest, seems to have gone quiet.
ADSL is such a fragile product - especially for those of us on longer lines.
Hopefully in a few years the ISPs and BTw etc. will get their act together and provide better support.
Keep us up to date with the latest - even though it might take you a while to post!
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I simply don't understand why the fault was closed by BTW when at 160K my sync speed is below the BTW acceptable performance level for DSL
No, it really annoys me, the whole level of BT involvement in the ADSL chain, and their lack of support on issues such as this, was partly why I went to Be.
Having said that, PlusNet are usually very good at pushing faults back to BT when they are incorrectly closed. Dunno what's going on in your case :(
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The lower threshold breach will be due to an underground cabling fault or even the line card at the exchange.
I can not say why Plusnet have not bothered with the reply, however if you PM me with the details you have received thus far then i will look at what might be causing the issue and the best way for you and Plusnet to approach BT with it.
Leo
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I believe that this is something that Matt Taylor was handling earlier today.
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Well the DSLAM has been reset to training mode. I'm sync'ing at somewhere between 330 and 670 dependent on router with an SN margin of 5.5dB, the Speedtouch now connects and gives the higher sync. However still a long way away from the 4000-4500 I was getting before the pair swop. As a coincidence had 4 BT guys today pumping out the connection box at the bottom of my road and redoing the connections, so it doesn't look like that was the issue. Guess I'm now waiting for an engineer to work his magic. Still irritated by the increasingly artificial split between phone and DSL which BT seems to insist on, I'm paying for a line which supports both POTS and DSL.
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Hi Mike
Sorry Ive not been around for the past few days - therefore am quite surprised that this hasnt got any further forward :/
To me, what you said on the 20th seems the most telling
My line went pear shaped day before yesterday, voice line crackly, dsl dropping. Today BT came and switched pairs and cleaned up the voice line. [.... /snip /... ]
For me the issue was that immediately the pairs were swopped my sync went down to 160 from 3000+. I'm coming out of the master socket via a face plate splitter directly to the router, nothing had changed my end in equipment terms before and after the swop.
If your target SNR has increased from 6dB to 9dB, ... whilst setting the line back into training mode, may help you get a slightly higher sync rate.. and is something that I suppose has to be tried. I dont see that it would change things back up to 3000+ ... IMHO thats rather a large difference between the sync speeds for it to be anything to do with any profile that may be set on your line :/
The fact that its below the lower threshold breach should start ringing alarm bells somewhere too. To me the "new pair" obviously has a problem somewhere.
However still a long way away from the 4000-4500 I was getting before the pair swop. As a coincidence had 4 BT guys today pumping out the connection box at the bottom of my road and redoing the connections,
Obviously I dont know - but makes you wonder if that was the cause of the original problem before they swapped the pairs over.. and this particular pair has its own problems.
Still irritated by the increasingly artificial split between phone and DSL which BT seems to insist on, I'm paying for a line which supports both POTS and DSL.
Hmmm therein lies the problem - and not something BT always seems to agree on, and prominence always seems to be on voice.
The piggy in the middle with BTw <-> ISP<-> End User doesnt help matters either.
You 100% have my sympathies and I know how frustrated I damn well would be.
I dunno how the heck your ticket managed to get "closed" either... NOT good!
Chris/James.. any more news on this one.. because, so far it doesnt look like the reset has made any difference. :(
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My personal opinion based on experience is that the Jumpering is broke and/or there is a fault with the underground cabling. Ask them to check these.
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Hi AZAKA, Do you mean the jumpering "Bloke" not broke !
Our research is showing that the major problem is that as there should be pretty good records for the pairs from the exchange to the "CAB". The "E" side. The problem is that in all cases that we have researched and investigated and are investigating, there is NO record keep of faulty "D" side pairs, and thats the pair from the "CAB" to the customer. So when a "D" side pair replacement/swop is carried out very often the customer with the fault looses into the system the faulty pair that he had that was swapped out AND ends up with a completly different fault. Sometimes the new fault is worse than the original fault. THEN some poor neighbour/customer gets the previous fault and so the system of escallating faults provides more work for "Openreach" This is all down to lack of management by "Openreach" managers who are (well Ill leave you to fill in this space)
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>> the customer with the fault looses into the system the faulty pair that he had that was swapped out AND ends up with a completly different fault.
Thats what I was wondering in my above post when I said "but makes you wonder if that was the cause of the original problem before they swapped the pairs over.. and this particular pair has its own problems."
>> there is NO record keep of faulty "D" side pairs,
Obviously not being a telecoms engineer I wouldnt know - but that does seem to be a bit silly. :/
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- there is NO record keep of faulty "D" side pairs -
I hope I'm not understanding what is being said. I kind of assumed that when a pair was diagnosed as faulty that is would be labelled - DO NOT USE or something similar, otherwise it is simply a recipe for chaos.
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To clarify,
the BT engineers DO make a note both in the CAB and Exchange and also in their book which is then passed on when they pass their notes on to be stored for the records.
Leo
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The reason why d-side faults aren't recorded and e-side are is mainly because as the e-side cableing is pressurised so opening a joint up is not as straight forward as a d-side joint so typicaly any e-side fault involves a pair change, any work on this cable is done by a specialied crew.
Any fault found within the d-side network is ment to be located & repaired by the engineer so in theory the d-side network is kept up to condition and this sysem works in the main.
Sometimes the fault may be between 2 nodes and some where you can't get at, then to provide service is there's a good spare (always test what you're looking at), then a pair change can be done. As this is typicaly between 2 nodes rather then the complete pair between exchange and cab/pcp, keeping a record of changes would become unfeasible. If there's no good spares then this may have to go for a cable renewal, civil works dig, from there the cost skyrockets.
I would think what's happened is an identifiable condition on the line affecting your POTS has been found and a pair change done in order to give you service again. For some reason (possibly linked to the inital pairs problem) the new pair has another condition which is affecting only your broadband. As you've seen some engineers working in a nearby joint and there's more than one, next question is are they doing additional work (ie a cable change) linked to your intitial problem.
Eitherway it's work raising a fault via your isp. As you need an engineer with access to APtS to test any thing done on the network based on dsl results as weel as typical tests
Now as for the conveluted way broadband faults are raised and closed compaired to POTS faults. the reason is the way this works was it was set up by a body based on a very simplified idea of what a broadband fault could be and how it's fixed (COUGHFCOM! excuse me, need to that sore throght sorted) Also some times the fault may get raised for the dsl to be checked from the exchange. A frames engineer can only recheck the wiring in the exchange an check there is sync from the output (for a reason I can't understand) they don't even have attenuators to test sync under load. after closing the task it's then up to the isp if they want to raise another fault for it to be looked into further.
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Azzaka,
Our research shows that their note books contain personal notes but when those Maintence staff in the field go to faults they go "blind" on the fault as in many areas faults are dished out on the basis of the system simply alocating them to staff in the order they come in. That was also the system operating some years ago, so there is no change there.
I have yet to see any notes in the "CAB" except where work is in progress.
The faults man/maintenance engineer makes in many cases notes in his note book to be entered into the system when booking off his faults either by lap top on site or at the end of a preset time period or at the end of the day.
Records are NOT kept in regard to the "D" side.
On a "D" side run when a joint is opened then the jointer may clear faults from other causes on other pairs to the pair he is investigating. He may by accident cause the odd fault to occur on a previously good pair when closing the joint. Seen it myself on many occasions in the past. Little has changed over the years in what I and others consider a thoroughly bad practice. Poor old customer, still if you want any form of service you simply just have to pay !!!!!!!!!!!1
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I agree completly with the comments made by Ezzer above who was posting a reply at the same time as myself.
I add that OFCOM is about as much use as a "teapot made of chocolate" has a total misunderstanding of what all of us understand by a "proactive approach" and should be subject to a thorough investigation and independent audit.
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I would love to have a senior Offcom person spend at least a week with me. Oficialy all you do on a broad band fault is test from either the mdf,cab,dp,nte5. try changing a pair/dropwire between any of those or fit a ssfp faceplate on the nte5, hence 2 hours then leave the fault.
As quite a few posts on this site lends to belive, things may sometimes be a bit more tricky
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On the subject of maintenance notes, I have had a number of engineers visits over the last year. Several of them have asked me what the previous guy had done. When I asked them - didn't they get a list of what had been done on previous visits when they were given the job - they said no. Evidently it was sometimes possible to get notes but it was a bit of a pain and involving several phone calls and there was no guarantee you would get them, so generally they didn't bother, particularly as they only had 2 hours to complete the job.
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Thanks Ezzer for the explanation wrt recording of faults.
>> I would think what's happened is an identifiable condition on the line affecting your POTS has been found and a pair change done in order to give you service again../snip/.. the new pair has another condition which is affecting only your broadband.
I think thats something we are all in agreement on. :)
>> COUGHFCOM
I think my thoughts are already well known. :-X
>> Eitherway it's work raising a fault via your isp. As you need an engineer with access to APtS to test any thing done on the network based on dsl results as weel as typical tests
Any comments on that one from Plusnet?
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No job notes from the previous fault/s, Sometimes you get a date and a fault clear code. It's infuriating,
Supposed to look into each fault afresh and not assume a previous fault has relavence to a new one, although broadband faults feel a different matter, Otherwise there is a good amount of info exchanged between engineers in any area, particuarly if there is a problem area
The record of d-sides is between the pcp/cab and the dp is recorded and is changed if required, it's the bits in between which can change. Because usualy if there's a fault on someones line, then the fault is located and cured before it starts affecting everyone else via that route, hopefully that part of the network should be reliable for a long time afterwards. E-sides get physicaly worked on far less because there is so much more d-side It's like comparing hte lenght of tree trunk to the combined lenght of all the branches
The problem with Broadband is you can get everything testing ok at the time you arrive (the little gremlin has spotted the engineer and left the network alone for now >:D) Typicaly we may try one or two amendments which we can suspect might make a difference Hence some of the posts where some one may say "saw the engineer go an do something up the pole and adjusted this but afterwards the problem started again"
This only happens on a very small percentage of faults but the annoyance factor more than makes up for the rest
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Kitz I posted about the same time as yourself ref your last point
If an ISP raises a fault then it will go to a Broadband engineer
A SP for POTS/PSTN will go to either non-dsl or dsl engineer.
(although there was a suspision some ISP's were trying the POTS route for a particular reason, Plus net by the way wasn't one of them)
Hence you need to call your SP for POTS faults and ISP for any Broadband faults, if you have a problem with both, go for your SP as any POTS fault will likely be causing the Broadband Issue.
(by the way I some times Type DSL instead of Broadband cos it's easyer ;))
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- Any comments on that one from Plusnet -
Latest message from the Plusnet member centre about an hour ago
We have checked the progress of your fault with our supplier. At the moment this is still being investigated by their diagnostics team. We will continue to check for updates and let you know as soon as we have more information
Holding of breath no recommended - started looking at local WISP's - thought of no BT wires is almost magical
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>> Holding of breath no recommended
:(
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The latest situation. After the DSLAM reboot the line card has been reset today. The line speed has been set to 750, if that proves stable then it will be increased to a higher value at sometime in the future. I'm finding this all very confusing.
Currently sync'ing at 928 at 6dB SNR.
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It's still a pretty poor speed for your line, and as the noise margin is only the bare 6 dB you're not going to squeeze much more out of it. If you get the same result when connecting directly to the test socket, then you've still got a line fault, and I'm afraid it's back to PlusNet to insist that the problem hasn't been fixed.
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- It's still a pretty poor speed for your line -
Yes I know, for the last three months it's been 4000-4500. The trouble is Plusnet don't seem to get it. They've reset the line card/DSLAM, upped the IP profile to 750 (for which I am grateful) but are now talking about seeing if my line is stable. Regardless of whether it's stable or not it is still sync'ing at only 900 ish, as you pointed out. Two day ago they were asking me when I was available for an engineers visit, that seems to have dropped off the agenda, in preference to 'waitng to see if my line is stable'. That's why amongst other things I'm confused, I don't understand quite where they are going.
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Hi there,
Apologies for the hassle, we can see there is a fault on the line given the stats and are pushing this back to BT to get the jumpers checked as of this morning. If there's nothing shown then the likely next step will be an engineer visit.
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From Matt Taylor at Plusnet - Apologies for the hassle, we can see there is a fault on the line given the stats and are pushing this back to BT to get the jumpers checked as of this morning -
AT 11.05 I recieved the following email from Plusnet
Yesterday BT reset the profile on your line for us, this set the Download Line rate to 750k, and we saw you synching at approximately 900k.
This morning I have retested and this is still showing the same, so at this point in time the best advice I can give you is to remain connected, as after 3 days of solid connection you may see the speed uplift further.
This is not a definite thing that will happen though, as your SNR Margin is already quite low, but this is the best advice I can give.
Other than this, the alternative would be to have your line changed to a fixed rate 1MB service, which could allow you speeds of 1MB but no higher.
Unfortunately we cannot request BT do any changes to your jumpering or wiring as there is no fault with either of these. It would appear that the PSTN repair work that was done to fix your fault voice line has changed you to a different pair on your line which has increased the attenuation values as you are now effectively on a different line.
Now although this is a different line, and the values are higher, it is not a faulty line and is working correctly, just that the line itself may now take a more extended route to your exchange, or have more joins in it, thereby increasing the attenuation levels.
If this is something you are not happy with and want changing, I can only suggest you contact your telephone line provider to have the line changed again, but as there is no fault you would in all likelihood be charged for this to be done.
For the moment I would advise to keep a connection ongoing for at least 3 days and then monitor the speeds that you receive after this period.
As a matter of fact prior to this incident my line attenuation was 53/54dB. It is currently 53dB. I'm beginning to feel as if I'm in a Monty Python sketch !
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>> As a matter of fact prior to this incident my line attenuation was 53/54dB. It is currently 53dB.
Is that a typo? From your stats earlier in the thread from your router, your atten was actually showing as
DS Line Attenuation 48dB
Something is amiss if a 48dB line is only syncing at around 900kbps.
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No, not a typo, when the incident occured the line attenuation improved to 48dB from the normal 53dB. There was further work not related to my problem (planned maintenace by BT) on connection boxes on my line. After that the attenuation went back to the historic 53dB value
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Something is amiss if a 48dB line is only syncing at around 900kbps.
With an SNR of 6db.
There is something wrong with the line and i believe it is the jumpering or the line itself. Now the ISP can request BTW to look at the line but it should be passed to the complex faults team also known as CFI once all the quality gates are met. If CFI then reject it, you can have the fault escelated, however this will be upto BTW and the ISP reps to decide.
Leo
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1st of all the comment "we can see there is a fault on the line given the stats". Hello.......... :idea:
Although given the details in this particular case I would say it almost definately would be part of the network causing the problem, stats do not define a line fault. The only way anyone can definately state there is a line fault within the BTw network is by physicaly testing the line between nte5 and the mdf.
This suddenly made things clear when I saw that statement as it causes angst when a end user states "But my isp said there is definately a fault on the line" when an engineer is testing outside of the BTw network. :hmm:
2nd I wouldn't suspect the attenuation of causing the speed issue of 1mb or less on a rate adaptive service with a loss of <60db. I would look at snr/errors issues first. In my experienc a change from mid 50's to mid upper 40's would affect the actual data rate but not as far as a region of 1mb or less. :-\
3rd Jumpering problems don't typicaly cause speed issues, loss of sync or incorrect CBUK perhaps. If I had this fault, given the history I would firstly be looking at the cable lenght with the changed pair and compairing APtS test results at the joint toward the end user after making the customary test from the nte test socket. :)
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Hi Ezzer,
What's your background? Do you work for BT?
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Yes, broadband and "proper" faults. Just managed to sign off (some of you think you got problems, try the work manager set up engineers have to use >:()
Other wise the heating system in the building has just burst out some demonic loud sound, >:D everyone will find my finger nail marks in the ceiling tomorrow :scare:. I'm off home now at last,,,yay
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Yes, broadband and "proper" faults. Just managed to sign off (some of you think you got problems, try the work manager set up engineers have to use >:()
Other wise the heating system in the building has just burst out some demonic loud sound, >:D everyone will find my finger nail marks in the ceiling tomorrow :scare:. I'm off home now at last,,,yay
That explains a lot. However as i am sure you can appreciate Ezzer, in my experience if the OpenReach engineer does not feel it is needed then they do not need to do the work. If this is the case then having the fault escalated with CFI and a Team leader can help get you to where someone who actually cares is looking after the fault.
If you feel i am wrong then please correct me Ezzer, it is just my opinion.
Leo
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I agree totally with the comments immediatly given above by Azzaka and EZZER.
BT, OFCOM BT Openreach, and erven Bt Wholesale could learn an awful lot if the put the above messages into all Engineers front note pages.
The public at large would benefit enormously as a reslt.
Will they learn I doubt it very much as the culture they own in their body just cannot accept they THEY could learn.
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I spoke with Orbrey from Plusnet over the phone. The situation seems to be (correct me if I am wrong Orbrey) BTw have said my line, currently sync'ing at 900K is performing satisfactorily relative to their fault threshold level (for a line sync'ing at 900K). The fact that it used to sync at 4500 is irrelevant, I have a new line since the pair swop. Consequently there is no issue for them to address. This is from my perspective totally ludicrous, as I have a simplistic view - they broke my line they should fix it. I emailed BT's CEO and he (or more likely a minion) has referred it to the 'high level complaints team' sounds impressive, but I'm running out of breath to hold.
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The high level complaints team can produce a result, so though I wouldn't suggest holding your breath you might just cross your fingers. :)
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I think you were right Roseway. An engineer appeared this morning - the good news. The bad news his testing equipment packed up after 10 mins or so. He will reappear on Stormy monday - not a nice day for line work if the forecast is anywhere near right
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>> his testing equipment packed up after 10 mins or so
Typical!! :wall:
Oh well, with any luck, bad weather may even help to, how can I put it, show the problem up on your line.
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:'(
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Monday Morning and waiting for the results.
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Yeah... waiting with baited breath here too... er... actually it's probably the garlic from last night :P
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Well the engineer came, couldn't get his hawk and laptop functioning properly, consequently went back to lower tech methods. Found a pair at the closest cab to my house that gave him a sync at 2000, which was also 2000 at the house. Said it was the best he could do as his manager was complaining he had spent too much time on the job (over the two hours) the weather wasn't helping him, it was totally foul. He did say that the cab outside the house was scheduled for replacement at some time in the future. It is a round steel? pillar about a meter high and about 30 cm in diameter and known to be a bit of a problem, evidently doesn't even have krone fittings. The real bummer from my perspective is that at the next cab (green box) 600m away he was syncing at 7000.
I'm a bit unsure about how to proceed. It may well be that I'm on the best of a load of rubbish pairs, which doesn't make me any happier. Anybody got any ideas. I will complain to the high level faults team, but I don't know whether that will get me any further forward.
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The Pillar you mention is probably an SCP.
Closer to an exchange cables fan out to poles and underground joints before getting to the premises. Further away one or more larger cables service a Primary connection point PCP/cab and the fan out the the proerties local to this kit. sometimes another cluster of properties may have another larger cable from the pcp servicing a secondary- or scp which tend to be smaller (or the pillar type you mention). A pending upgrade of such a pillar usually relates to the condition inside, they can be very cramped and arkward to work on and this typicaly dos'nt relate to any performance issues.
Usually the issue is what's avalable between the exchange to pcp,them from pcp to customer, by running via an scp this adds to the complication of getting the fault sorted hugely. as for the 2hour thing :wall:
What next ? (need magic roundabout icon) :(
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The engineer also said it was a nightmare to work on the SCP. I have had a response from Plusnet following the engineers visit. I hadn't realised that the original pair swop was onto an aluminium pair.
Unfortunately we can not see any further problems or faults with your service. As requested we arranged for an engineer to be dispatched and re-arrange your line to a new pair. Although you were seeing a reduction in speed to previous times there was technically no fault with the service. The problem arose when BT moved you onto a aluminum pair rather than the faulty copper one you were on. This is enough to not show any degradation as far as telephone services are concerned however we are aware that the speed will be reduced for ADSL, the maximum an aluminium cable can offer is around 1mb.
Your line stats show a downstream attenuation of 54db, a sync speed of around 2mb is what we would expect of your line attenuation. The engineer that visited you found no issues with the cabling and confirmed all testing ok.
We have done all we can to improve your service as we arranged for the line to be moved back to a better pair. As you do not have a fault we can not take this matter any further.
Basically seem to be back to square one. The line is sync'ing at 2000 but SN margins are down to 1-2dB during noisy afternoon night periods, so my IP profile may well suffer.
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More than likely it will.
The good news is you are on a decent line now, so depending what you want to do you now have a few more options.
I would suggest speaking with them, when the line degrades at that time of day so they can run the line tests to check it.
Leo
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The new pair has some interesting characteristics, it drops from time to time sometimes resync's at a 6dB margin, sometimes at 9dB ish. The SN margin also moves around a lot down to 1-2dB in the evening then for unaccountable reasons goes up to 6dB then 9dB. Not helping with IP profile which is still at 350K. Overall it is looking like a rubbish line, sync'ing at 1600-2000 compared to 4500 historically.
Overall I am disgusted with BT's approach to line quality. Their position seems to be providing the line is stable and sync'ing above 400K then it is technically fault free and consequently not their problem. It is totally immaterial that, historically, it may have sync'd at 3,4,5,6 meg. I have been trying to get some confirmation of what the BTw policy is regarding DSL speed issues from the CEO's office, but have to date failed miserably, consequently drawing my own conclusions. I can't think of any other industry that has this cavalier attitude.
To sum up BTw's position seems to be - doesn't really matter if our infrastructure crumbles away because it only affects the customer and as they don't have any real alternatives we'll still rake in the line rental regardless.
Rant over
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I hope this is of assistance to you.
Max Terminology
One of the most confusing things about Max is not only that the speed varies, but that there are a whole load of technical terms for the different speeds and measurements that are made. The following should help make sense of the different terms you might come across.
Maximum Stable Rate (MSR)
During the first 10 days your connection will be given a value known as the Maximum Stable Rate (MSR). The MSR is the lowest sync speed (line rate) achieved in the first 10 days, not as the name somewhat confusingly suggests, the maximum sync at which the line was stable.
Here's an example. My new Max connection syncs at variable rates between 3 and 4Mbps. It's stable at 3Mbps but occasionally drops the connection at 4Mbps. If conditions change, perhaps I put in a phone extension or change the filters, I now see the modem synching unreliably at 256kbps and dropping every 5 minutes. I then replace all my filtering and the line returns to the previously seen pattern. In this instance my MSR would be 256kbps but I would probably see a stable 3Mbps download rate and synch at 3.5Mbps after the line had stabilised.
The MSR value is solely used to determine when a drop in sync speed would be considered a fault*. It is important to understand it is not a guarantee of speeds that you should expect for your 'up to 8Mb' connection and that Max is rate-adaptive, meaning your speeds will vary throughout the lifetime of your connection. We do not publish your MSR value as part of your Max service...think of it as for administrative purposes only. If you would like to see what data transfer speed you are receiving on your connection please see your BRAS Profile.
*BT will accept a fault report if the line rate drops by 20% or more from your established MSR, this is said to be below the Fault Threshold Rate. e.g. if the MSR during the first 10 days is determined as 5000kbps, a fault can be reported when your sync speed drops to 4000kbps or less.
Sync Speed (Line Rate)
Also known as Line Rate, the synchronisation (sync) speed is the speed at which your ADSL modem or router communicates with the BT Exchange. This is always higher than the speed at which data will actually be downloaded over the connection. The sync rate is determined by your phone line's characteristics, such as line length and quality. The shorter the line and the better the quality the faster the line will sync.
Throughput Speed (Data Rate)
The throughput speed is the maximum speed that data will transfer across the connection. The maximum throughput speed is always lower than the sync speed because the sync speed includes a certain amount of 'overhead data', this is essentially data that makes the connection work rather than the data that gets added on to the web pages and files you download.
I am lucky that I am able to borrow the appropriate equipment to monitor my lines and this sounds to me exactly that which I have on one of my lines ie. Crosstalk which causes intermittent noise you should be able to observe this using a Netgear DG834G Version 3 and Routerstats, ------ that will give almost the same result as the £40,000 quids worth of test gear Ive had on loan. Its sure going to be a big bill for BT when they get our bill for especially their incompetence , lies and threats.
Have a great day.
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These terms are described more fully and accurately here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm) and here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm).
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I do fully sympathise with you mike - I too wouldnt be a happy bunny to find out that a prev syncing line of 4Mb+ and now you suddenly find yourself with a "carp pair" through no fault of your own.
AFAIK there isn't any standard set for adsl... and any documentation seems to revolve around the voice part of the line - not the dsl.
A downstream atten of 53dB should in theory be able to manage circa 3.5Mb throughput but obviously it is dependent on such things at the amount of SNR Margin and the Target Noise Margin on the line.. and obviously the quality of the "copper pair".
Judging from whats been said so far (and based on the stats that I have seen), it would appear that your local area is judged by BT as being "around 2Mb"... the fact that theres now mention of aluminum youre now encountering the problem of many people with the joys of alu on their line :/
It would appear that previously you were "one of the lucky ones" and originally allocated a line with more copper in which is why it was performing above what is recorded for your area.
It wouldn't surprise me if once your old line had been swapped out for the voice fault, then it was soon after put back in service to someone else.. which is possibly why BT are saying they cant do anything else, since its possible that the only available pairs are those with alum on them.
I'm not really sure what to suggest to you Im afraid.. as an ex-adsl campaigner I became aware of one estate around here that couldn't get adsl at all due to alu. It took BTw another 4 years to enable those residents and it was done by doing a "copper overlay". The timescale was due to the huge expense of implementing the copper overlay cable to the estate.
What would I do if I were you? I think first of all I would go on a fact-finding mission.. and see out what sort of speeds your neighbours and the surrounding area are getting.
1. If you are getting much lower speeds than the surrounding lines - then IMHO I feel that you have a good case to trying the higher channels that youve already mentioned.
2. If you new speeds are very similar to those than in the surrounding area then if you can all get together to campaingn to BT for better provision. - The more the merrier as this helps add a bit more pressure. This is what those in my area did.
3. The fact that you previously had a decentish line also adds some credence as it shows what is possible
I'm disappointed that your ISP wasnt able to help you more.. particularly due to the fact that your original Fault Threshold rate has been breached. but if they are getting blocked by BTw then theres a limitation as to what they can do too. :/
Therefore I feel you have justification in trying the "higher channels" to see if they can help.
I'm not sure what the thinking is on the FTR and Maximum stable rate - because the new line will have undergone its own training and therefore have an entirely different MSR and FTR will have been set for the new line.
Roll on the days for FTTC and mini-dslams in the cabs. I'd love it if the government gave some backing to this...
However in the current climate with OFCOM sticking its oar in the wrong places I can perhaps see why BT may be hesitant about a huge mammouth investment. - If OFCOM are later going to rule that BT then have to make these cabs available to other Telecom Cos who wish to cherrypick so they can make a profit, leaving BT the only company who has to pick up the tab for the expensive lines.. yet price-setting BT so that BT cant reduce their prices and therefore compete more fairly on the more profitable lines/exchanges... it doesnt take a genius to suss out that BT are going to think twice.
Whilst this ridiculous situation continues its only holding back the progress of adsl and making a two-teir broadband service.
/sorry mike end of rant.. I feel for you.
[edited to add - I hadnt seen grapvines reply when I started my post - but Im still posting it anyhow
Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.]
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>> These terms are described more fully and accurately here and here.
I recognise the quoted ones immediately - I proof read it after James originally wrote it, before it was published.
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I understand the bit about MSR, but if, as in my case, you have a pair swop due to a line fault then it seems your are judged to have a new line, which has a different, and in my case, much lower MSR. Hence no line fault, hence no problem (for BTw). This is what sticks in my craw. It gives them no incentive to maintain their infrastructure. The customer takes the pain. What compounds my ire is the fact that at the cab 600m away a 7meg sync can be achieved.
Thanks for the sympathy.
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>> Thanks for the sympathy.
Not much help really is it Im afraid.. I wish there was more that I could do for you... and it is a real downer that for the sake of 600m
All I can do suggest is since it would appear that the ISP has taken it as far as they say they can, then would be to take the alternative measures I mentioned above.
There has been some instances where the Ben route has been successful.
Do you know what sort of stats your neighbours are getting.... are they in a similar situation?
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No don't know about the neighbours, next door are not on the internet, as they use ours. People behind us go to a different exchange, even worse than ours.
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Well good news (fingers crossed). After a few more emails I had another visit from Openreach today, who checked my line thoroughly from the exchange to the house. I'm now on a pair which give me a sync at 5000 at 6dB target SN margin (53dB line attenuation). The reasons for the poor performance of the previous pair are unclear, it checked out as OK on their Hawk equipment but they found it slow to sync. They speculated that it may be due to an old style connector somewhere on the pair (not too sure what an old style connector is, but apparently they perform badly on DSL lines). They were talking of bringing in some specialist engineer/equipment to see if they could locate the problem. All I have to do now is to wait to see how 'the new line' performs during the noisy evening period, as I'm prepared to drop 700 or so of sync to give me a stable connection I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll get back to my old performance levels.
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Thats excellent news mike. :dance:
So glad that they finally managed to find a decent pair. !
Those stats look excellent - fingers crossed for you that all remains well this evening, which will be the final test.
Then its just waiting for your IP profile to catch up.
Keep us informed :thumbs:
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I would suspect the "old style connector" is whats refered to as a "Blue beannie". It's an old design of crimp which should normaly be fine, certainly for voice usage. Now with broadband technology the same crimps can sometimes cause an issue.
If we go into a joint then we have to change any blue beannies we find to the current crimps,(other wise if the auditor checks afterwards and finds we left some we get what's called a 10 point failure :no: A big slap) the only exceptions is if we're in a joint with so many you'll spend all day changing them over without soring the tasks you have for the day.
Gradually there's less and less of the network with a this potential lurking. most blue beans I've come across don't cause any problems, but the odd one sits there causeing an issue with no clue it's the culprit until you change it over then bingo, dsl is better. Iv'e changed about 30 pairs yesterday while working on a provision for one line in the morling. I would think none of the ones I came accross would have caused any difference however you never know and it's one of the many continuos things constantly being done in the network to improve it ;D
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A big thank you to Ezzer, I completly forgot to bring such matters of line failure to the attention of the Auditors.
Just had a visit today from an extremly refreshing Openreach chappy, probably the only one with the right attitude Ive met "on the Tools" for more than six months.
Big question will he get the support he needs or should be given??????
Will tell more later.
Have a great day all.
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Bit over two days into the new line. So far looking good. Initially sync'd at 5200 and 6dB, just about made it through the evening drop but errors were racking up and SN margin was hovering around 2dB, generally my Speedtouch drops at about 1dB. Rebooted at start of noisy period, sync'd at 5000, dropped about 3.5 - 4dB during evening period but sync held, errors not too bad. Rebooted again farther in to noisy period at 4600 so far dropped 2.5-3 dB, which should hold with acceptable errors. That will give me an IP profile of 4000 which I'm happy with, actually I'm already at it thanks to some nice BT man. Overall I'm happy, stilll time to fall flat on my face but I'm optimistic. For the record my router is showing an attenuation of 54dB, please note Plusnet. In general it is looking marginally better than my previous connection prior to the fault.
So eventually got back to where I was, but took a month plus two goes at the high level complaints team. Have to say that once BT took it seriously they did a good solid job which took them well over the 2 hour job limit. Not that I'm complaining about that but it does point to the limitations of the 2 hour job limit. I still strongly feel that BT after a line fault should aim to return your line to approximately the same performance level for voice and DSL as it was prior to the fault as a matter of policy.
Thanks to everyone for the sympathy and suggestions.
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Excellent!
I am so pleased that you got there in the end Mike - you damn well deserve it after all youve been through.
Lets hope it stays like this - even though you are still appear to be getting a largish variation in SNR, I think that under the circumstances its probably acceptable. I know you've done all you can at your end, and unfortunately some lines do just need that bit more. :/
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us - and although we couldnt physically do anything for you, there have been some of us soooooo wanting this to be resolved for you.
A couple of things have come out of this thread.
- The 2 hour time isnt always long enough and sometimes if the engineers were allowed to spend that lil bit longer then a satisfactory response could perhaps occur sooner.
- The ridiculous situation where a change of pair disregarded the previous FTR set on your line.
I also feel that the ISP should have more power to reject cases where there are such variations in FTRs across lines and take this further with BTw. :-X
Hope you have a good easter and that you can relax with your family now this appears to be resolved. :thumbs:
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Kitz thanks for kind thoughts and for your Plusnet prods. SN margin is currently holding at 3.5dB during the noisy period which should be OK from past experience, and consequently I stand a good chance of holding my 4K IP profile. Relax over Easter, I wish - decorating the kitchen and watching the snow flurries.
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heh - enjoy the decorating then :D