Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: waltergmw on February 15, 2015, 10:06:05 PM
-
Gentlefolk,
- I and my esteemed associates here have been chasing REIN issues since around 2008 in Peaslake Road Ewhurst - one of our infamous areas now with VDSL syncs down to single figures. We have at long last managed to prove to Thames Water that one of their variable speed pumps is causing mayhem with at least two VDSL and one ADSL service as you can see in the picture below. The pumps used to swap every 24 hours but TW have kindly reduced the bad pump to run overnight as "we wouldn't be using our broadband then". Sadly we have not been able to tell DLM about that !
Now for the title subject. We're looking for an ancient RF2 low pass filter and I wonder if anybody might have one lurking anywhere or know where I might purchase one ?
Kind regards,
Walter
---
Admin - fixed unsupported html tags which broke formatting on iOS devices
-
Unfortunately I do not have a BT80-RF2 in my grotto. :no:
Perhaps Black Sheep might have one in his "box of bits"?
-
I can't help on the RF2 front, sorry, But Thames water are joking ? Do they now know (care) that people with vdsl bb use their bb 24/7 they arent all businesses that operate strict 9-5 or 8am-4pm hours of operation? never mind DLM ,But one easy option in those circumstances would be to Disable DLM And educate those affected ??? we both probably agree, but Beatee may not ,lol The only other option is for BT to get their line plant protected against this type of thing, just as commercial broadcast tv and radio are by ofcom ,something sadly they don't even appear to be concerned about
-
Further thoughts . . .
You are essentially looking for a low pass filter that permits the typical telephony audio signals to pass (up to 4 kHz) but blocks all frequencies above 4 kHz. So would a dangley microfilter or a SSFP do the job? :-\
-
What and where are you thinking of putting the RF2? :-\
They basically kill adsl frequencies and would cause high attenuation and loss of sync speed... Depending on how good the line was in the first place, it may not even be able to sync. http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm
As b*cat suggested if you are wanting to block adsl frequencies over 4kHz then the telephony side of a microfilter would have the same effect.
-
I know a little more of the background. ;)
Thames Water have two pumps and a dial-up modem for control & telemetry use. They are willing to fit a low pass filter to the line, inside their equipment chamber, in an attempt to stop the interference that is being generated by their pump(s) exiting via the telephone line. Basically their equipment is injecting noise into the telephone line and that noise is affecting VDSL2 and ADSL users.
After further thought, I wonder if this in-line splitter (http://www.solwise.co.uk/adsl_splitters-inline.htm) would do the job, with the telephone line connected to the "Line" IDCs and the dial-up modem connected to the "Phone" IDCs.
The circuit diagram is attached, below.
-
Walter ....... if it has definitely been proven to be causing interference, then the pump should be replaced imo ?? Try ringing 0800 917 9178 (Opt 1 (you are then forced to listen to the announcement about LLU ties etc) then press Opt 2, and then Opt 1.
There is a slight time-delay during one of the hops that you may think you have been cut-off, but you won't have been.
This is an option for REIN if you are a customer. I've never used it, as I go to Opt 2 at the end as a REIN engineer, so not sure where it takes you ??. Ignore all the other options available as you would need to have validate the call with a personal Employee Identification Number, a task number, and subsequent mapping details to prove you are an engineer. :)
-
Thank you Gentlefolk for your comments and ideas. We have been trying for a long time to get this resolved. In fact is was a very good BS replacement that had the idea of putting a RF3 filled with sealant inside the BT66 box, only to have it removed by a subsequent engineer, and then replaced yet again. That's not ideal but we couldn't access the kiosk to put it near the NTE5 - always assuming there is one. Kitz's idea of the microfilter certainly would be the easiest option so one end user will be instructed to provide one with the tea for the TW workers !
To be fair to TW they are at least corresponding with us and they are aware of the effects of thyristor speed controllers.
They are talking about Faraday cages too.
Quite naturally doing unplanned one-off modifications isn't their highest priority as the locals all loose water supply too !
Also understandably BT O aren't too interested as the modem syncs and they are officially forbidden (I think) from changing a different EU line when called out to improve the performance.
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Thanks VERY much BS - We might just surprise your colleagues when we demonstrate this BT facility to them !
K R
Walter
-
To be fair to TW they are at least corresponding with us and they are aware of the effects of thyristor speed controllers.
They are talking about Faraday cages too.
Think a Faraday Cage will be an expensive waste of time - probably the initial mechanism is conduction and then radiation from the wires. Also most people equate screening with hiding so something is draped over the device with not nearly enough screws, and then someone looses some. Suggest if you can bend an ear a power line filter at the offending controller sounds best I half suspect there once was one but it failed and someone "repaired" the motor by just removing it.
-
Thank you b*cat and walter for the further info, I was scratching my head at why you'd want an RF2, makes sense now.
@ walter - credit to the black kitteh for the microfilter, I just expanded on it. :)
-
Gentlefolk,
I thought I should provide the latest news on this sorry affair.
We are still hoping that Thames Water will, one day, report upon their progress in actually removing the cause of the REIN.
Zen inform me that the line is perfectly stable and as there is no fault and Openreach do not recognise REIN as requiring attention, Zen cannot progress this matter at all. Although we have plenty of evidence that the line has achieved nearly 14 Mbps in the past, that is no excuse to raise a fault with Openreach !
Zen state that BT do have REIN experts but they only operate as a favour on a best endeavours basis. Zen also tell me that BT Openreach cannot force an EU to cease and desist from injecting any signal into the PSTN. I find this astonishing and suspect if I injected 414 volts into my NTE5, I might well expect some admonishment ! Comments from BS would be much appreciated.
Zen have given me an Openreach number 0800 023 2023 and select Option 3 where an EU may request the re-siting of BT's plant. I'd guess this is normally used if you need a pole moved e.g. for a new driveway.
At present we have a new BT retail VDSL service being commissioned on another pair in the infamous 20 pr cable. They still have a BT Wholesale estimate of (an un-achievable) 19 Mbps so the new service has been declared as sub-standard by BT Retail. This has also been the subject of over two months of trauma so I have provided the evidence for the EU to send to his Newcastle trouble shooter who rejoices with a generic e-mail address of Vision.resolutions@bt.com .
Now back to reality. Here's the latest data harvest we have from our modem on the original service where it seems that it has been banded at 10 Mbps.
Max: Upstream rate = 461 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13452 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 487 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10000 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 7.8 4.9
Attn(dB): 32.1 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 10.4 5.9
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Zen also tell me that BT Openreach cannot force an EU to cease and desist from injecting any signal into the PSTN. I find this astonishing and suspect if I injected 414 volts into my NTE5, I might well expect some admonishment ! Comments from BS would be much appreciated.
REIN and its procedures, (IMHO), are a constantly evolving beast. I know for a fact that raising an actual REIN case differs between ISP's and REIN reception centres. There doesn't seem to be any cohesion ?? That said, (again IMHO), it may seem a bit 'fingers & thumbs' to all involved but it kinda works on the whole.
I'm afraid the 'mains voltage analogy' doesn't hold water with OR, as if you did knowingly inject dangerous voltage (risk of death) into OR's network, then I'll be a monkeys uncle if a court summons didn't shortly follow.
As an aside, we do have the odd instance whereby 240v is accidentally coupled to our network. Usually it is a mains-voltage cable run under a carpet (I kid you not) and both that and the phone wire will be caught on a carpet gripper rod. That is why all our testers should have insulated croc-clips, and the testers will immediately alert the engineer to the fact that 'Dangerous Voltage' is detected.
If this kind of voltage is found on the MDF, it is immediately shut down and a BTO Power Engineer despatched to find and isolate the source.
Slightly long-winded, but I want to get over the point about acting knowingly. The vast majority of REIN is not transmitted knowingly, and it most certainly does not pose a risk of injury or death to anyone. Only amateur radio-hams are knowingly transmitting, but they are generally aware of what filters are needed to halt bleeding over DSL tones. We do not have any powers to actually shut down or remove offending items, and rely upon the goodwill of the EU to assist us in bringing about a satisfactory resolution.
In all my years attending REIN cases I have never had anyone refuse to help until just two weeks ago. The guy in question is point-blank refusing to co-op and is very abusive when trying to explain what the issue is. As a result, the REIN team have closed the case as 'Deadlocked'. There is nothing more that can be done.
This sounds similar to your predicament, Walter.
-
and the testers will immediately alert the engineer to the fact that 'Dangerous Voltage' is detected.
If this kind of voltage is found on the MDF, it is immediately shut down and a BTO Power Engineer despatched to find and isolate the source.
Off-topic, but this reminded me...
Back when I first had ADSL installed (fixed 2Mbps) in 2000, the engineer told me that the line ended up at a higher than normal voltage. 90V instead of 48V maybe?
The fact this higher voltage existed was then highlighted within the computer-tools he used, showing up on each of the cables that my pair ran through.
I've since learnt a lot about ADSL & VDSL, and I don't recall ever seeing a dickie bird about higher voltages.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
-
90Vdc is what ISDN circuits run at. Also, the now obsolete Home/Business Highway systems also worked at that voltage.
DACS circuits work at 140Vdc, and various Private Wire circuits operate circa 120Vdc.
None of these are classed as 'Dangerous Voltages' as they are designed to work down our cables. 240Vac is not.
-
Its probably not what you want to hear but assuming its private housing (as opposed to housing association/council/etc) then the degraded broadband will have an adverse effect on the property's value.
If you are 100% sure its TW at fault then they are liable for that potential drop in value. If its multiple properties then that will add up very quickly & will get the beancounters' attention (this is the only thing that matters with water companies). You need to demonstrate that the cost of replacing the pump is less than the cost of paying compo/defending the claim(s).
I know a guy down south who cut through a BT cable while laying a driveway - he did the right thing & got Openreach to fix it but for whatever reason it had a very bad effect on sync speeds (<40% of what they were). Things went back & forth between the EU/Openreach/builder for a while but the upshot of this was that the EU had to live with the reduced speeds. EU wasn't best pleased about this & got some valuations from estate agents based on before/after speeds & it turned out that the house had lost about £7k in value. You can't claim £7k on the small claims track though so he claimed for £5k - builder passed it onto insurers & they settled the claim.
It would be very much a last resort but as I've found with Severn Trent (unrelated matter) its often the only way to get privatised utility companies to do what they should within a reasonable timescale.