Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: xreyuk on July 01, 2014, 04:40:26 PM
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Hi Guys,
I've also posted this over at the TBB forums if you think you've seen this thread before :)
Hi Guys,
I currently have an 80/20 product with Plusnet, and am currently synced at 46/12. The estimates for my line were somewhere between 34-47 down and 7-11 up. I went for 80/20 instead of 40/10 because when I signed up a month and a half ago, Plusnet only offered unlimited usage on their 80/20 product. Plusnet are now offering 40/20 with unlimited usage for £5p/m cheaper than what I'm currently paying.
At present, my line is is synced at 46Mbps down, with interleaving enabled. Interleaving is set at 909, INP is set at 3, and delay is set 8. Max attainable is 49.6Mbps
It is synced at 12Mbps up, with no DLM intervention whatsoever, max attainable is 12Mbps.
Here are my current stats:
# xdslcmd info --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 11975 Kbps, Downstream rate = 50360 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 12236 Kbps, Downstream rate = 46430 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 5.1 5.9
Attn(dB): 22.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.6 7.1
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 51 237
M: 1 1
T: 64 51
R: 12 16
S: 0.0356 0.6184
L: 14368 3286
D: 909 1
I: 64 127
N: 64 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 199886672 591688
OHFErr: 6211 463
RS: 3926237003 841265
RSCorr: 1854920276 18100
RSUnCorr: 605531 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 134570 0
OCD: 5014 0
LCD: 5014 0
Total Cells: 2199549361 0
Data Cells: 701843907 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 545 615
SES: 51 0
UAS: 112 68
AS: 457650
Bearer 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 8 0
PER: 2.28 7.91
OR: 83.85 32.34
AgR: 46514.30 12268.10
Bitswap: 338261/338261 75853/75853
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 11938 Kbps, Downstream rate = 50700 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 12236 Kbps, Downstream rate = 46430 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2688)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3405)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 11938 kbps 50700 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 7.1 dBm 12.6 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 6.9 35.4 53.3 N/A N/A 16.8 43.4 67.5
Signal Attenuation(dB): 6.9 34.7 51.8 N/A N/A 24.9 43.0 68.3
SNR Margin(dB): 5.8 5.9 5.8 N/A N/A 5.1 5.2 5.2
TX Power(dBm): 0.3 -7.5 5.7 N/A N/A 10.0 7.8 3.7
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I use the internet mostly for browsing/email, downloading on usenet (mostly when I'm not in, set up via RSS), streaming to and from the house, and PS4 gaming (in order of most often).
My question is: Would I be better off reducing my speeds to 40Mbps and potentially having interleaving disabled (so better pings etc), or am I better off keeping the higher sync speeds for my usage? I'm happy to pay the extra £5pm if I keep a better level of performance (plus I got the introductory £9.99 for 6 months on my current deal anyway, so total difference over contract is £30)
I realise no one can say for certain whether reducing my speeds to 40Mbps will take away interleaving. I've asked Plusnet, and they've said that whilst chaining to the 40/20 product will not reset DLM, it will re-enter me into the initial training period, which will make DLM more active again.
P.S I'm planning to wait a month or so anyway to see if DLM clears up my current connection, as my connection was messed with a fair bit in the first few days.
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Interesting that they're offering the 40/20 product. OR must be selling it to PN as the 80/20 and PN capping it to 40 on the DS ?? No reason why they shouldn't if it suits EU's needs. :)
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Yeah :)
Nevermind, they've said that they still put you on the 80/20 product and cap you using their profile. Your sync speeds would remain as if you were on 80/20, so I would still have interleaving.
Interestingly, I've seen somewhere on this forum that you can use a command to limit your download sync speed. Is it possible to do this to reduce the interleaving, and possibly remove it?
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Way out of my league, your last question, but I'd also be interested to know if this is the case ??
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Interestingly, I've seen somewhere on this forum that you can use a command to limit your download sync speed. Is it possible to do this to reduce the interleaving, and possibly remove it?
The only problem buy doing that is your going to have to lose 15000 kbps of your 46430 kbps which will take you down to 31000 kbps as you DS is low with a SNR of 5.1 dB.
The the lower you sync the SNR will increase and the interleaving depth will decrease, so if you could get the DS SNR to stay at 6.5dB 24/7 then there is a chance the DLM could move you onto fastpath. :-\
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Thanks NewtronStar.
Why would I have to lose 15,000Kbps? Can you only limit it to certain thresholds?
I was originally synced around 43Mbps, but it moved it me up the other day. When at 43Mbps, I was around a 6dB SNR margin.
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Thanks NewtronStar.
Why would I have to lose 15,000Kbps? Can you only limit it to certain thresholds?
I was originally synced around 43Mbps, but it moved it me up the other day. When at 43Mbps, I was around a 6dB SNR margin.
The 15000kbps is an estminate, well that's it you see your SNRM is changeing all the time and 6db is not enough, have you been monitoring your DS SNRM with the stats software to see if it fluctuates or dips below 6dB ?
So to get any chance of seeing the DLM change you onto fastpath I would go for a DS SNRM of 7.5dB and don't know how much sync speed you will have to forfeit to get to that point it's trial and error ;)
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SNRM can't be adjusted by FTTC users, but apparently sync speed can be.
I have attempted both ways a few times & had no success, but I believe Les-70 & maybe Kitz have had success with lowering sync speeds.
BTOR usually set a minimum SNRM value of 6 dB for VDSL2 connections (apart from Chrysalis who has somehow managed to get it down to a sustained 3.9dB or 4dB).
If sync speeds are reduced, SNR & SNRM should increase, possibly to a level where errors are drastically reduced & with a bit of luck, DLM would see it as a vey stable connection & possibly reduce interleaving depth, maybe all the way to reinstating fastpath.
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I'd be interested in trying myself after I've given it a little while.
I was going to see if DLM was going to adjust my line any further so was going to give it a month or so.
If it doesn't do anything, I might try lowering sync speed to see if I can force DLM into putting game back to fast path.
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Confirmed that both Les and I have been able to reduce sync speeds on the zyxel. The info how to do so is in the zyxel thread and afaik should also work with a huawei too.
Les does so routinely now on a billion to keep the dlm happy and no interleaving. Though iirc he did get caught fairly recently when swapping over routers.
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Confirmed that both Les and I have been able to reduce sync speeds on the zyxel. The info how to do so is in the zyxel thread and afaik should also work with a huawei too.
Les does so routinely now on a billion to keep the dlm happy and no interleaving. Though iirc he did get caught fairly recently when swapping over routers.
I also did this a while ago, I remember someone on here doubting my results and ability to cap the sync speed. You can do this with the HG612 and the Fr!tzbox 7390, I can't comment on the Zyxel as I've not used one, but whatever other's experiences are basically. It's an effective way to get rid of interleaving, just beware that doing so I found myself stuck on a 60/20 sync for several months, despite no longer enforcing a cap for several weeks at one point. My guess is DLM got stuck in a banded state somehow.
HG612
xdslcmd configure --maxDataRate <downstreamKbps> <upstreamKbps> <totalKbps>
For example, xdslcmd configure --maxDataRate 62000 20000 82000 would achieve a sync cap of 62,000Kbps downstream and 20,000Kbps upstream. This only works on the most recent firmware version for the HG612 however.
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I also did this a while ago, I remember someone on here doubting my results and ability to cap
I wonder was that me ;D ?
Its all fine and dandy to do this but if you have a sync of 30000 kbps it's not worth it as DS speed becomes more important than fastpath, it's only for the guys who already have 60+ megs sync at there disposal that's the way I see it.
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Thanks guys, I think I'll give this a go if DLM doesn't do anything else with my line.
How much do you think I'd have to reduce the speeds by based on my stats in the first post?
Am I talking a drop of say, 4 or 5Mbps, or a larger drop of say, 15Mbps? I wouldn't mind taking a small hit to get off an interleaved line, however, I don't want to take a big one.
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well lets see when had a sync of 46430 kbps you had a DS SNRM of 5.1dB then you had a retrain and you had a sync of 43000 kbps this gave you a DS SNRM of 6.0dB so you lost 3000 kbps and gained 0.9dB of SNRM, so if the maths is correct to get 7.5dB (to cover any SNRM fluctuations on your line) then you should set the sync at 38000 kbps :-\
And then the long wait to see if the DLM moves you onto fastpath, I am sure you won't see it in 14days or 28days it could take a few months :(
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Thanks mate :)
I'm probably going to give DLM another month or two on my line (it's had 3 weeks so far, 1.5-2 Weeks stable) to see if it removes my interleaving, but looking at the SNRM and error counts above, I doubt it will remove it?
The reason I'm looking at doing it is because by lowering package, I'll save £5 p/m, and £30 over the length of the contract, as I got the 6 months introductory at £9.99 offer. I'd only lose 3-8 Mbps of speed, and considering that most of my downloading is done when I'm not at the house or asleep (it's automatic via RSS feed) I would consider that real-time performance is more important to me for browsing and gaming. It's not like a 38Mbps sync would be slow either :)
It's going to be better for browsing/gaming having a sync speed of say 38Mbps, pings of 14ms & no interleaving rather than having 46Mbps sync and 22-24ms pings, with interleaving right? Or am I not likely to notice much of a difference?
Kitz & Ixel - by lowering your sync speed, did you aim for a set SNRM, and if so, what SNRM did you aim for? Would 6dB be enough, or would you suspect I have to higher?
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I have run with a speed limit for some time. I have usually aimed for 9db snrm. This gives me a reduction of crc's and es of about a factor of 3. A speed drop raising the snrm from 6 to 9 would about 16mb/s at an initial 80mb/s attainable or about 8Mb/s with an attainable of about 40Mb/s.
A capped speed will also avoid too high a sync occurring when noise or cross talk is low, this is important on my line which has wide variations in attainable when neighbours switch on and off.
Depending on your usual error rates a more moderate sync may suffice. Why not just try 40 downstream for starters. For upstream you can leave it at 20 and let it do its own thing.
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Thanks mate :)
I'm probably going to give DLM another month or two on my line (it's had 3 weeks so far, 1.5-2 Weeks stable) to see if it removes my interleaving, but looking at the SNRM and error counts above, I doubt it will remove it?
The reason I'm looking at doing it is because by lowering package, I'll save £5 p/m, and £30 over the length of the contract, as I got the 6 months introductory at £9.99 offer. I'd only lose 3-8 Mbps of speed, and considering that most of my downloading is done when I'm not at the house or asleep (it's automatic via RSS feed) I would consider that real-time performance is more important to me for browsing and gaming. It's not like a 38Mbps sync would be slow either :)
It's going to be better for browsing/gaming having a sync speed of say 38Mbps, pings of 14ms & no interleaving rather than having 46Mbps sync and 22-24ms pings, with interleaving right? Or am I not likely to notice much of a difference?
Kitz & Ixel - by lowering your sync speed, did you aim for a set SNRM, and if so, what SNRM did you aim for? Would 6dB be enough, or would you suspect I have to higher?
In my view, from my own hardcore gamer's perspective, I do feel a slight difference when interleaving is on. Some people may say it's in the head, but I personally don't feel it is.
I didn't aim for a particular SNRM, but I did aim to increase it in order to reduce the error seconds. However, I don't use the HG612 unless it's purely for diagnostics reasons. The cabinet I'm connected to is an ECI, and the ECI /r seems to work quite well with it (no interleaving, full 80/20 sync).
Just try to avoid reducing your sync too much. I say this because when I reduced mine from an attainable of 80Mbps downstream, all the way down to just less than 40Mbps downstream, after DLM removed interleaving it left me on a banded profile of 60/20 (min 30Mbps, max 60Mbps).
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Thanks for the input guys.
I did have another thread when I was synced at about 43.2Mbps and SNRM was 6.9dB then, so I might try 42/42.5 first, and see how that goes.
As I say, I'll revisit this in a month, as I'll probably give my line some time with DLM at first before messing around with it.
My latest errors are in the first post at the top of this thread, and my first initial post with stats is here
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 12087 Kbps, Downstream rate = 51204 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 11999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 43225 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2644)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3408)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 12087 kbps 51204 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 7.0 dBm 12.6 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 6.9 35.5 53.5 N/A N/A 16.8 43.6 67.8
Signal Attenuation(dB): 6.9 34.6 51.9 N/A N/A 25.0 43.2 68.6
SNR Margin(dB): 6.0 6.1 6.1 N/A N/A 6.9 6.9 6.9
TX Power(dBm): 0.0 -7.4 5.6 N/A N/A 9.9 7.8 3.8
# xdslcmd info --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 12080 Kbps, Downstream rate = 51204 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 11999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 43225 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.9 6.1
Attn(dB): 22.1 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.6 7.0
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 58
B: 51 237
M: 1 1
T: 64 33
R: 12 16
S: 0.0383 0.6297
L: 13376 3227
D: 845 1
I: 64 127
N: 64 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 28076340 186790
OHFErr: 99 86
RS: 2892472767 512583
RSCorr: 173669247 1238
RSUnCorr: 4616 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 1032 0
OCD: 37 0
LCD: 37 0
Total Cells: 1444066954 0
Data Cells: 5740135 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 27 90
SES: 0 0
UAS: 24 24
AS: 69050
Bearer 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 8 0
PER: 2.45 10.43
OR: 78.07 49.08
AgR: 43302.84 12047.83
Bitswap: 33243/33243 12011/12011
That sound like a good plan?
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I do hope you will keep us informed if you decide to go down the forced cap as all information is very welcome.
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I do hope you will keep us informed if you decide to go down the forced cap as all information is very welcome.
The kuro neko echoes N*Star's statement. It is an interesting subject and one that was, to me, initially not at all obvious. :)
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I will do, I'll revive the threa
I do hope you will keep us informed if you decide to go down the forced cap as all information is very welcome.
Of course, I know everyone is trying to find ways to mess about with DLM :)
I'll revive the thread if I decide to down the route of capping :)
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If you cap at about 42 that will only give a small error reduction but when/if the interleaving is removed that cap at 42 would then have a snrm of about 9-10 and you may welll then stay on fast path. A lower cap at about 36 should give a significant error reduction. If you start with 36 and give it a chance to get to fast path you will be likely to keep on fast path if you then set to 42 after it has achieved fast path.
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Thanks Les.
So you think I should go a bit lower, then when/if fast path is enabled, raise the sync speed slightly, but only to a level where we think fast path will stay enabled?
I also meant to ask, does this command need re-entering if the DSL goes down, or the router is rebooted? If so, is it worth me putting the command in DSLStats?
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Those would be my choices. My cap to get a roughly 9db snrm corresponds to a sync almost identical to that which interleaving would give me.
You only need reapply the cap if the modem does a full reboot as with a power off/on. It is not needed again if just a resync occurs either though severe errors or the DLM.
I had trouble with putting the command in dslstats - the trouble was almost certainly to do with coming out of standby when, on rare occasions dslstats mistakenly thought the sync to be down. I disable vdsl in the gui so the command needed is e.g. xdslcmd configure --mod v --maxDataRate 68040 20000 100000 where the --mod v enables vdsl. This approach ensures no sync occurs until the command is given. I have not retried dslstats lately, you could try adding in a harmless command like xdslcmd info --linediag and then check whether you find any resulting output in the display or if you select it, the event log. If you don't get any output after a few days it should be safe to use dslstats. Out of interest I am going to do that myself.
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My DSL stats will always be running on a server, so coming out of standby wouldn't be a problem, however, I may come back to this thread for some advice when I actually implement it :).
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Just a quick question for the guys who've tried it.
How successful has it been?
I'm asking because I've called Plusnet to see about the possibility of downgrading to the 40/20 package they offer, because I was going to buy this service, and then limit the sync using the above commands.
When I signed up I was given the top fibre package for £19.99 p/m but with 6 months half price, so the total price of the 18 month contract is £299.82.
They are willing to let me downgrade to the £14.99 p/m package, but can't give me any introductory offers, and I have to start a new 18 month contract. This comes to £269 for the 18 months.
I don't want to downgrade, and have no success with the sync limiting to only save £1.67 per month. If the sync limit works, I've no problem downgrading, and trying to force my interleaving off.
So, has it been successful on the most part? Do we know any other people who have tried and failed?
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I've decided to delay this for now. Looking at my stats, my max attainable upload has been dropping and dropping (I think as more people are coming on the cab, I saw them doing work the other day) and if I resync, I stand to lose 2-3Mbps of speed.
I'll update if I do bother doing this though :)
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I don't want to downgrade, and have no success with the sync limiting to only save £1.67 per month. If the sync limit works, I've no problem downgrading, and trying to force my interleaving off.
So, has it been successful on the most part? Do we know any other people who have tried and failed?
I have not tried it myself as my Download Speed is more important than being on a non-interleaved, the reason being is my DS sync is 29982 kbps and the SNRM is very variable over a 24 hour period and changeable over 12 months.
All I can say if you can get the HG612 to sync lower by turning it off and turn it on when the attainable rate is at its lowest point this should give you a slight increase in SNRM with less error counts, but you need to get the DLM to see this ON/OFF as a Retrain Reason 0 for it stick at those settings.
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So, after waiting to see if DLM would touch my line, I grew impatient, and also wanted to experiment a little.
I used the xdslcmd configure -maxDataRate command and it worked fine. However, since I've done it my error counts have literally gone through the roof and I don't know why.
Could just be coincidence but my SNRM went from 6dB to 7.9dB, so it should be more stable, but the error counts haven't just jumped a little, they've over tripled.
Any idea why?