Kitz Forum

Computer Software => Windows 8 => Topic started by: broadstairs on June 28, 2014, 10:34:40 PM

Title: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on June 28, 2014, 10:34:40 PM
My wife decided she wanted her own laptop so we bought an HP one today and it came with W8.1. I am just sitting here in total disbelief as whet an awful system this is, and as for all the c**p it has installed beggars belief. The setup phase is so condescending in its wording and expects you to use MS cloud stuff eventually allowing a local account when you can get past the MS stuff. You wold not believe the absolutely awful desktop backdrop it has chosen, looks like broken glass. It also expects you to use IE by default - and there's me thinking the EU put a stop to that.

As for the laptop itself I have no dea how good or bad it is as I've sat here for some 10 minutes while it set itself up.

Also strange to say there is no MS COA on it either so how do I knkow I have a valid copy of W8.1?

Oh well now to strip it of W8.1 and go back to W7 at least there is some sanity in that.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on June 28, 2014, 10:53:47 PM
Did all the criticism of W8 over the last year or so pass you by?  :-X

Try installing Classic Shell before you scrap it.  ;)
There are actually quite a lot of improvements under the skin (much as I loathe the new UI) and it can be quite useable.  :graduate:

My wife's PC has W8.1+CS and she barely noticed the switch from XP.  :lol:
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on June 28, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
No I knew all about it but did not realise just how bad it is. If it were mine it would have Fedora Linux installed in a heartbeat. I just dont see the need for all the apps rubbish it has, or why IE is the default browser - I should not be forced to even have it installed in my view. All my wife does is a bit of email, web browsing and the odd document (Xmas card lists etc).

Does the classic shell allow you to turn off those goddamn tiles?

Stuart

I've just discovered my product key is embedded in the BIOS and so I presume I cannot use it to install 8.1 on another PC so if this PC dies I have a useless W8.1 license!

Also all the HP Recovery Manager has managed so far is to create a coaster and not any recovery DVDs.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on June 28, 2014, 11:19:49 PM
You didn't look far did you.  ;) Try the sticky in this very section: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=11931.0
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on June 29, 2014, 10:17:24 AM
You didn't look far did you.  ;) Try the sticky in this very section: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=11931.0

I had read that before but not today. I'd still prefer the tiles to be gone completely but for now I've decided to install Classic Shell and yes it is an absolutely essential improvement.

One major gripe is that the HP Recovery Manager so far has not managed to create any recovery disks, only 3 beer mats. On looking into this there is a huge issue with doing this reported on the HP Support forums, even using a 32GB USB stick is not guaranteed to work but at least that does not mean it cannot be re-used like DVD+Rs. HP have known about this for ages and it seems done nothing but blame users blank DVDs or the DVD drive itself. This is also why for now I have stuck with 8.1 despite how much I despise it - Linux is soooooo much better  ;) ;) I need those disks in case we ever want to pass on or sell the PC.

One minor gripe is that using the trackpad the 2-finger scroll to my mind is counter-intuitive since it works in the opposite direction to scroll when compared with a 1-finger scroll on the RH side of the trackpad.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on June 29, 2014, 09:04:01 PM
I always use DVD-R's when creating recovery media.

Don't forget to also do the Windows recovery set as well, I think that would be a repair disc (or whatever it's called) and a full system image copy which can be on an external drive.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Ronski on June 30, 2014, 06:34:53 AM
I've just discovered my product key is embedded in the BIOS and so I presume I cannot use it to install 8.1 on another PC so if this PC dies I have a useless W8.1 license!

You're Windows 8 license will be an OEM version , that means it can only legally be used on the hardware it was shipped with.

Why shouldn't Windows ship with its own browser, if you don't like it install something else, I'm sure Macs ship with Safari preinstalled, yet the EU didn't put a stop to that!

I use Start 8 on my laptop where I chose to install W8.

It sounds to me that you'd already decided W8 was rubbish and just wanted a good moan about it, although I do agree it was a huge mistake by MS not to leave the original start button in, and have an option to boot to desktop.

Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on June 30, 2014, 08:14:36 AM
I admit I am not fan of MS and the reports of W8 initially did nothing to improve my view of MS or W8 and so far my experience of using it does nothing to help.

Any OEM license can be used with any hardware as long as it is only used on one PC at any time you can after all buy an OEM license. If I own a legal copy of the software which I do with this new PC I should be able to use that software on a different PC if this one dies.

As to the browser I was under the impression that the EU made a ruling that it was anti-competitive and earlier copies of Windows gave you a choice at install time.

Stuart

Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on June 30, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
Any OEM license can be used with any hardware as long as it is only used on one PC at any time you can after all buy an OEM license.
No!

Read the relevant license terms, there are many different versions.

Most OEM licenses are actually tied to the hardware it is first installed on, your interpretation is generally incorrect.
And Microsoft do different licences for large manufacturers as opposed to the small-scale "installer" or "system builder" OEM licences you (or I) can buy (and I have and do conform to the terms).

PS I made my living for some time as an expert in software licensing so I do know what I'm talking about.  ;)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on June 30, 2014, 09:20:19 AM
I was under the impression that the EU made a ruling that it was anti-competitive and earlier copies of Windows gave you a choice at install time.
So should Windows 8 at some point, but maybe not at install? Or you have a non-EU regional setting?
Quote
If you're using Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1, and you have your regional settings set to one of the following countries or regions, you’ll get the Browser Choice update through the Windows Update service:

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, United Kingdom, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland
From: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/what-is-the-browser-choice-update
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: loonylion on June 30, 2014, 12:00:05 PM
as mentioned, a windows update will give you a browser choice menu. However, Microsoft have pulled the wool over the EU's eyes with it because 2/3rds of the 'alternative' browsers listed are IE with a different name and skin
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on June 30, 2014, 08:28:38 PM
By the way I've jusr run a Windows Update and no browser choice has appeared so MS have done it again and given folks IE by default.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 01, 2014, 10:18:50 AM
The HP Recovery Manager I mentioned having problems writing DVDs for Recovery disks has not been solved, I tried DVD-R and DVD+R both good quality and all failed. I obtained a 32GB memory stick and while it took hours it did work so I now have a bootable USB stick Recovery system. Not satisfactory in my view as HP have known about this for absolutely ages and done nothing about it.

I have managed to turn off all the Metro screen stuff so it does not appear when you put the mouse in any corner or swipe accidentally so for now it looks like W7/KDE desktop my wife is used to.

Now to hand it over to her and let her break it  ;) ;)

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on July 01, 2014, 10:52:37 AM
I'd be kicking and screaming at HP and insisting they send me a full set of recovery media.  >:D
(and charging them for my wasted unusable DVD's)

As for totally hiding tiles and apps just be aware that some file associations may launch a "Metro" app unexpectedly, e.g. when clicking on an email attachment. So be prepared to go in and fix such issues by assigning the file type to the relevant desktop-style program.

Until MS update W8 to allow Metro apps to run on the desktop this will be rather a PITA for "traditional" users.  :-X
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Berrick on July 02, 2014, 07:16:07 AM
Until windows 8.2 is released, Microsoft's "U" turn operating system, giving back the start button similar to windows 7 you could install "classic shell". Classic shell if you aren't aware is free.

Talking of "free", Windows 9 is being whispered to be "free" and similar to Google's Chrome OS. Apparently it will be cloud based with the core OS being in the BIOS. You will then pay for any additional functionality you require.



Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on July 02, 2014, 09:05:30 AM
you could install "classic shell".
You should read the earlier posts, it's not a long thread - on the same page as yours.  ;D
Try installing Classic Shell before you scrap it.  ;)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Berrick on July 02, 2014, 09:50:38 AM
I'd just woken up  :blush:, must have missed that bit  ;) besides how else was I gonna get the bit about windows 9 in lol.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on July 02, 2014, 10:55:29 AM
The whole Windows 8.1 update, W8.2, W9 makes interesting speculation, but one does wonder if MS can afford the revenue hit of giving it all away?
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Berrick on July 04, 2014, 08:00:17 AM
Quote
but one does wonder if MS can afford the revenue hit of giving it all away?

From a personal view I think Microsoft have woken up to the fact that the younger generation, and next wave of decision makers, are moving away from Microsoft OS. You can do more interesting things with PC hardware and Unix type operating systems for free. Whilst you can probably achieve the same with Microsoft OS you have to buy expensive licenses or circumvent its protection.

Why this would make a difference? From my way of looking at things these potential decision makers are more likely to move away from Microsoft than those of us who have grown up with Microsoft.

Another big point to consider is that Microsoft, whilst making money from consumers don't need them, at least from an operating system perspective. So it may make good business sense to give the basic OS for free and then hammer users for those all essential missing bits that make it useful.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 04, 2014, 08:28:00 AM
From a personal view I think Microsoft have woken up to the fact that the younger generation, and next wave of decision makers, are moving away from Microsoft OS. You can do more interesting things with PC hardware and Unix type operating systems for free. Whilst you can probably achieve the same with Microsoft OS you have to buy expensive licenses or circumvent its protection.

Why this would make a difference? From my way of looking at things these potential decision makers are more likely to move away from Microsoft than those of us who have grown up with Microsoft.

Another big point to consider is that Microsoft, whilst making money from consumers don't need them, at least from an operating system perspective. So it may make good business sense to give the basic OS for free and then hammer users for those all essential missing bits that make it useful.

I thnk this is a valid view of things to come. One of my main motivators for moving from MS stuff to Linux was indeed price. I had run everything on my home PCs from Windows 3.1 to now Windows 8 on my wifes laptop, and at work MSDOS upwards so I have seen at close quarters how it has evolved. It is OK to get a new Windows OS as part of a new PC where the cost is hidden but start adding the extras and you can very quickly spend much more on that than you paid initially for the hardware. Pretty much every new Windows OS has needed a hardware upgrade to get reasonable performance and new versions of most additional stuff as well.

My final move to Linux (I'd been playing with it since the early Red Hat days) was driven by the cost of the MS software and additions especially when you consider I build my own desktops so have to buy OEM MS OSes. Having moved to Linux for pretty much everything now there is only one piece of software which I run on Linux which I pay for and that is a printer driver suite because right now it provides the best support and highest quality printing in my view. Everything else is free, photo editing, video editing, Office suite etc etc. So my software costs are practically zero (even the printer stuff is low cost) and none of it gives inferior results to stuff like Photoshop and MS Office.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 04, 2014, 11:00:39 PM
Interesting turn up for the books tonight....

My wife has decided she hates this new HP Laptop and Windows 8. Main reasons are that whatever mouse we used there is a definite lag between operating the  mouse and it responding, even worse with the scroll wheel as you can click it singly 3 times if you see what I mean and only then does Windows move the screen. We've used 3 different mice and they are all the same, all 3 work flawlessly on Linux and earlier Windows. She has never liked touchpads of any variety and refuses to use them.

Next issue is the screen cant seem to get it to show white as white always looks cream and her favourite photo used as a desktop wallpaper is nothing like what it looks like on all the other PCs she's used. Also the screen is lousy when light is coming over the users shoulder as it has a very glossy screen and is quite difficult to see (I know that would be the same whatever the OS  ;) )

Last issue and the one I am going to use as reason for return is the fact that it is impossible to create recovery DVDs, apparently HP recommend using a 32gb usb stick, well I refuse to send that sort of money for a usb stick when I should be able to create DVDs with the provided software. HP say use high quality blanks (which I have) or return as defective DVD writer, so guess what I'm going to say....

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on July 04, 2014, 11:05:43 PM
If you can, do a factory reset before taking it back, to "erase" anything personal.  ;)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 06, 2014, 12:06:12 PM
Final update on this. Factory erase done and took it back today, you would not believe the hassle - initially refused to consider not being able to create recovery DVDs as a bug and said either I should pay them to do it or buy a 32gb memory stick. I was adamant that it was faulty so next he suggested I leave it for a day or so while they 'test' it, did not accept that. Finally he gave in and refunded as faulty when I told him that 3 different mice would not work without a lag between moving the mouse and the screen moving plus the colour rendition of the main screen was very bad when compared to my desktop with same photo.

His final comment was that for recovery disks all vendors now recommend a 32gb memory stick and that the user has to purchase that along with a new laptop.

So now I'll visit my local PC shop and get a second user laptop for my wife with W7 installed and a set of DVDs to re-install from, plus a years warranty free.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: NewtronStar on July 06, 2014, 05:29:10 PM
It's seems just like the Move from XP to Vista the hardcore users hated the transition and it looks the same for Win7 users to Windows 8.1 the hardcore users don't like change, they will have to make the move sometime or another once MS stop supplying the updates for Win7 but by that time we my have Window 9 or 10 and then the hardcore Win8.1 users start saying Win9 or 10 is crap.

For me XP was good Vista great and Win7 was just the same as Vista and Windows 8.1 is just like the last three  ;D 
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on July 06, 2014, 05:40:05 PM
I wouldn't bet on that; with the corporate use of W7 I think it will outlast W8.1.  ;)

Don't forget XP is still fully supported by MS, you just have to pay.  8)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: NewtronStar on July 06, 2014, 05:54:28 PM
I wouldn't bet on that; with the corporate use of W7 I think it will outlast W8.1.  ;)

Don't forget XP is still fully supported by MS, you just have to pay.  8)

That's the word a harcore users would say (outlast)  :D

My Amiga 1200 and emulated 1200 using KS ROM v3.1 (A1200) rev 40.68 (512k) [391773-01/391774-01] has outlasted them all and it's all free  ;D
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Ronski on July 06, 2014, 07:08:40 PM
For me XP was good Vista great and Win7 was just the same as Vista and Windows 8.1 is just like the last three  ;D

I've used Windows since Windows 95, then Windows ME, then XP and when Vista came out I used that in Beta form then installed the OEM version, same with W7 beta, got in early and ordered multiple copies of the retail version when they done that cheap deal. I breifly tried W8, but stuck with W7, although I do have 8.1 on my Laptop. When I build my next desktop machine (Devils Canyon i7) I may well move to W8.1. I've not used W8.1 enough, but out of the others W7 was the best, and I consider myself a hardcore user.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: kitz on July 06, 2014, 09:19:06 PM
With Classic Shell windows 8 isnt too bad, even though there are a few niggles.   Perhaps I havent used it enough, to get properly used to it.. purely because I do like Win7.


Historically windows has a damn good os then a crap one

ME
XP
Vista
7
8

They seem to get a stable OS, then make a pile of changes which no-one likes, then bring out another OS which is OK, then we go round again. So hopefully Windows 9 should be OK :D :D
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 06, 2014, 10:08:52 PM
The problem I have with all the upgrades is WHY?

I find it difficult to think of anything I could want to do that I could not do in XP, I'd agree that W7 is probably a tad more stable but I never had any real issues with XP. I can think of nothing that W8 can do that W7 cannot and I'm ignoring touch screens I'm talking applications. In recent times the only reason I can think of for all these upgrades is to get people to shell out loads of money to keep Microsoft afloat.

I know that many hardware vendors  make silly decisions. While I did have the laptop I discovered that Canon did not make any drivers for their SELPHY CP900 printer for W8, when I queried this with Canon the answer was that as it was designed before W8 it cannot be made compatible. Guess what if you turn off driver signing in W8 the W7 driver installs and the printer works flawlessly!

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Ronski on July 07, 2014, 10:27:34 AM
Things change and things move on, does Linux never have updates then?

I can think of loads of things that I can do in W7 and W8 which I could not do in XP, just because you can't doesn't mean others don't  use or want the new features.

All manufacturers have an upgrade cycle,  be it software, cars, tv's. If they didn't they'd go out of business.

If you don't like Windows don't use it, if it's what your wife wants then accept it and get on with it.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: loonylion on July 07, 2014, 11:43:22 AM
biggest thing is probably XP couldn't really do 64 bit. (sure there was a 64bit version of XP, but the driver and software compatibility of it was crap, and Microsoft never really supported it.) Proper 64bit support came with Windows 2003.

While there are things I still dislike about Windows 7, such as the network and sharing center, the amount of disk space it takes up compared to 2003, how resource heavy it is compared to 2003, and the fact they STILL haven't fixed their stupid memory management scheme (seriously, why is it swapping when I have 32GB of ram and 25GB+ is unused?), I have accepted that I can't use 2003 (or XP) anymore, because it's been phased out, and Windows 7 is the next best thing.

I have no intention of downgrading to 8 or 8.1, I want a functional computer not a glorified smartphone. Windows 9 I reserve judgement on, but if it follows the path set by Windows 8 I will be missing that out too. Hopefully reactos will be usable by then.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 07, 2014, 12:04:56 PM
Things change and things move on, does Linux never have updates then?

I can think of loads of things that I can do in W7 and W8 which I could not do in XP, just because you can't doesn't mean others don't  use or want the new features.

All manufacturers have an upgrade cycle,  be it software, cars, tv's. If they didn't they'd go out of business.

If you don't like Windows don't use it, if it's what your wife wants then accept it and get on with it.

Yes of course Linux has updates all systems do but Windows 8 in my view is trying to be too radical, forcing Metro on users rather than making it available for those who wish to try it. I suspect most of the things you need W7 or W8 could be done in XP but the software has not been made available for it. Any computer is just an adding machine which basically does what it is told to do - its only ones and nones after all.

I dont dislike Windows per se I just dont see why all this new stuff has to be forced on users, people dont always want to learn new stuff all the time, if it works dont fix it, just make new stuff an option dont force it on users. My argument about W8 in particular is that even with  Classic Shell (which is very good) some Metro stuff will appear and in my view it is unnecessary to do that, especially for some one who does not need or want to learn all that stuff.

Most folks here know and understand computers to a greater or lesser extent and will in most cases sort it all out for themselves but for a significant proportion of Joe Public they will get lost in much of W8 and that creates resentment and disaffection with it. By all means change things but it should always be for the better and not leave folks behind who are more used to the old ways of say W7, make a transition path for them to ease the process and dont take huge jumps when it is really unnecessary. I know backwards compatibility costs money but in the long run some is worth it.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Ronski on July 07, 2014, 01:20:59 PM
One of the very reasons I avoid Linux is because it always seems so complicated to me, want to make a system change then you need to enter some weird and wonderful command line text, or at least whenever I've dipped my toe in the water it's the way it seems. Things may be changing though, but that's because it's becoming more like Windows.

Just how steep was your Linux learning curve?

Yes I absolutely agree that W8 should have a desktop mode, with Apps available,  and it is heading that way.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 07, 2014, 02:37:21 PM
I've been using Linux on and off since the very early Red Hat days, once the Linux desktops started to appear you have ways of doing most things via a GUI although for die-hards the command line is still well and truly alive. I use a mixture of both, but often need the manual for commandline nowadays. As I've worked in computing since 1966 for nearly 40 years until I took early retirement I guess you could say I have had 40 years of learning at least and I guess another 12 years of retirement also learning so far. In IT it never stops....  ;) ;)

I think 'Evolution not Revolution' should be everyone's mantra!

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: NewtronStar on July 09, 2014, 07:16:49 PM
As I've worked in computing since 1966 for nearly 40 years

I think 'Evolution not Revolution' should be everyone's mantra!

Stuart


Think i'll call you ILLIAC IV from now on instead of Broadstairs  :D
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on July 09, 2014, 07:26:34 PM
I think 'Evolution not Revolution' should be everyone's mantra!
And that, I think, was Microsoft's fundamental error with Windows 8 (not really corrected with 8.1).  >:D
They cut off everything that was familiar when there really was no need. Indeed various pre-release versions were much more flexible and only at the last minute was it really locked down into the new "idiom".

Funny, looking back as a mainly Windows 7 user, I found that to be a reasonable transition from XP even though I really disliked Vista.
Now that I have many years of use of W7, and have largely migrated into its "native" mode, whenever I have to use Vista it's no longer strange, apart from how unbelievably slow it is!  :o
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 09, 2014, 08:24:45 PM
Think i'll call you ILLIAC IV from now on instead of Broadstairs  :D

Actually IBM 1401 might be more appropriate as that was one of the earliest I worked on, the new baby at the time was the IBM System/360 Model 30  ;) ;)

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: NewtronStar on July 09, 2014, 08:46:50 PM

Now that I have many years of use of W7, and have largely migrated into its "native" mode, whenever I have to use Vista it's no longer strange, apart from how unbelievably slow it is!  :o

Down Boy  :)  the reason why Vista was unbelievably slow was down to the Aero Glass Interface and most users had a below average GPU card and had no more than 2GB of ram when Vista was released the only option was to turn off Aero.

So with a good CPU with 4GB of ram and good GPU Vista OS service pack2 runs as fast as Win7  8)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: NewtronStar on July 09, 2014, 09:07:25 PM

Actually IBM 1401 might be more appropriate as that was one of the earliest I worked on, the new baby at the time was the IBM System/360 Model 30  ;) ;)

Stuart

Stuart oh dear think I came across one of those in my exam papers in 1986 say no more  :-[
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: burakkucat on July 09, 2014, 09:09:47 PM
Some people can read 80-column punched cards in their sleep, others can read 5-hole punched paper tape!  ;)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: NewtronStar on July 09, 2014, 09:42:53 PM
Some people can read 80-column punched cards in their sleep, others can read 5-hole punched paper tape!  ;)

It's kind of funny when you think about it most home computer these days have a card reader it's just smaller & digital (SD Ram Cards)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on July 09, 2014, 09:55:38 PM
Paper tape had one advantage, when you dropped it all you had to do was wind it up again but a deck of 2000 cards well......

As to the S/360 30 it had a maximum of 64k bytes of RAM and that was a step up from 8k on the 1401  ;) Try running Windows on that  ::)

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: loonylion on July 09, 2014, 10:40:36 PM
I have a working IBM PC convertable. 3mhz 8088 cpu with 512kB of ram on actual pcbs with connectors lol
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: phi2008 on January 03, 2015, 11:52:19 PM
One of the very reasons I avoid Linux is because it always seems so complicated to me, want to make a system change then you need to enter some weird and wonderful command line text, or at least whenever I've dipped my toe in the water it's the way it seems. Things may be changing though, but that's because it's becoming more like Windows.

Just how steep was your Linux learning curve?

Yes I absolutely agree that W8 should have a desktop mode, with Apps available,  and it is heading that way.

I've just arrived at Windows 8.1 as my main desktop, Windows hasn't been my main desktop for many years. Back in the 90s I ran SuSE Linux, then spent some years on Windows, before switching to OS X(both official hardware and Hackintosh)  which is still the best desktop *nix in my opinion. I was going to switch to Ubuntu(or more likely Mint) but I've found simple things like handling dual displays with my AMD R9 280 simply either don't work or eventually crash badly under the main Linux distros like Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint(actually Mint came very close to working but eventually went into self-destruct mode).

It must be about 17-18 years since I first started using Linux as my desktop and back then I thought it was going to improve and take over the desktop world in short order - I'm more than a little disappointed with my recent experience of the major distros given the massive amount of time that has passed. In fact I find Linux on the desktop embarrassing.

I have to say that using Windows 8.1 has been a pleasure, everything just works. Unlike my Hackintosh I don't have to worry that the next OS update is going to crash my machine, and unlike Linux Windows keeps things simple and promotes a sense of tranquility.

I dislike Windows for being proprietary, and I dislike it for not being *nix, but I love it(so far) for being hassle free.  :)
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: broadstairs on January 04, 2015, 09:01:22 AM
Well I'm sorry to say that in my experience W 8.1 is a pain in the proverbial. The number of times my wife shouts "help what on earth is this doing now" is far far to many, she is a user and not interested in trying to resolve funnies when they happen so I get to do all that. The only reason I've not put Linux on it yet is because of the graphics it has so I have to wait for the Linux drivers to catch up. This to my mind is the main issue with Linux that hardware providers are not interested in developing drivers for Linux or if they do it is a 'back of a fag packet' development. On my wife's previous laptop which did have Linux she virtually never had a problem with the OS or desktop, the reason it went was a hardware issue. I just wish W 8.1 cold get close to that reliability.

Stuart
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: HPsauce on January 04, 2015, 12:03:13 PM
Just to throw in my 10 cents worth, based on a few more months W8.1 experience and exposure to the W10 preview.
I still don't like it, mostly because the visual interface is too dumbed-down, especially compared to W7.
But, that said, my wife gets on happily now with her PC and most of the silliness of W8 has gone with 8.1.

And more to the point, I now have a LOT of customers with W8.1 and many of them are quite elderly. Surprisingly they seem to have few if any problems using it.

Finally, under the skin, it is undeniably much better than previous versions of Windows.

As for Windows 10, I find it quite odd. It seems to be trying to go back towards W7 without admitting any mistakes. As such it seems pretty pointless as it (so far) seems to offer no significant advantage over either 7 or 8.1.  :no:
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Chrysalis on January 04, 2015, 12:40:56 PM
The advantages are technical rather than UI related.

IE11 supporting h264 codecs and DRM html5.  So much better youtube/netflix support.
HyperV
Enhanced network stack (although seems to be in a half finished state on win 8.x, documented tweaking doesnt work)
Better SSD support.
DX12 and 11.2
Lighter AERO
Probably more.

The mistakes microsoft made were concentrating on the UI changes as a supposed selling point and enforcing those changes onto PC users.  On a PC, charms, metro etc. for usability is a regression.  They optimised for touch not mouse usage.  Dev's for all sorts of software repeatedly make the mistake that software can be optimised for touch without affecting desktop, this is complete nonsense.

I actually think the metro screen makes a good lock type screen, its good for showing live tiles, but its no app launcher for a desktop user, the start menu is best for that.  Even on 8.1, search is messed up as its some kind of horrific massive sidebar instead of part of start menu.

Another regression aside from the horrific charms is that AERO no longer has glass and specifically windows vista/7 themes wont work on windows 8.  Sadly this has not been fixed in windows 10.  In addition the enhanced customisation e.g. the ability to shrink down fat window borders is removed in windows 8+.

So for me windows 8+ is improved under the hood but regressed in the UI.  I will be migrating to 8.1 and I guess eventually to 10 but I havent had time yet to properly test it, make a custom iso etc. yet.

By the half baked TCP backend upgrade I mean that netsh is now considered obselete by microsoft yet it still partially functions in windows 8 eventho its obseleted, and there is new powershell commands to replace it, the problem is the custom templates are broken meaning people cannot do customisations, senior microsoft staff who have posted on the web have been silent when questioned about it.

Some info here.

http://www.speedguide.net/articles/windows-8-2012-server-tcpip-tweaks-5077

Windows 10 is out of the box better than Win8 for sure, no doubt about it, however the fact they have now added a start menu means if the start menu apps for win8 no longer work, then win8 may be considered superior, as the start menu in win10 is not win7 style.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: phi2008 on January 04, 2015, 01:09:20 PM
I still don't like it, mostly because the visual interface is too dumbed-down, especially compared to W7.

I was also put off by the Windows 8 interface initially(and I actually still think it doesn't really work on the desktop), however I also have a Dell Venue 8 Pro tablet and the touch interface really shines on that format - I like it much better than Android.
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: Ronski on January 04, 2015, 01:35:58 PM
phi2008 give Start8 or classic start a try on your desktop
Title: Re: Windows 8.1
Post by: phi2008 on January 04, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
I've used Classic Shell and Start8(run Windows 8/8.1 on my laptop), found Classic Shell a bit "unstable", Start 8 worked better. Might use my Start8 licence for my desktop, though weirdly the 8.1 interface isn't bothering me too much at the moment.