Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: ibby on June 18, 2014, 10:25:08 PM
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Hello guys,
Some history! I was orginally with Xilo.net who provided me with a adsl2 service which I happily used for 9 months or so.
Connection speed did vary and I did see around 12 to 15mb sync on my line.
My exchange got FTTC enabled and I decided to move from Xilo.net to Zen.co.uk. On the day of the migration the KC engineers turned up disconnected the ADSL2+ connection and activated the line for VDSL.
Some more history! It seems my house has got two drop down cables from the pole outside, both of them run into the house and I only have one master socket in the house that I can find.
I have 3 cables within the master socket and I dont know what they are for, I have one extra port downstairs which I assume is for one of the other cables, but why do I have two others?
I was under the assumption that the VDSL connection runs from the same twisted pair. It looks like I have a set of wires for voice and one for VDSL! ..?
Please see pictures and any recomendations ?
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Much as I detest our contractors, I can't see anything particularly wrong with those photo's.
The VDSL and Voice (PSTN) are separated at the chunky intermediate box in your photo. So what you're left with is a DSL port where your modem/router plugs into, but the PSTN is allowed to continue on it's way to any other sockets you may have in the premises, via the wire connected on the frontplate.
In effect, the way it's installed at your premises means you can only have your Fibre Router connected at the socket in the picture, but your phone will work in any other sockets you may have.
**NB** - It does appear as if one wire has been left disconnected at the master socket, this may have been like this before KC arrived on-site ??
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The black cable that is visible in the first photograph (it appears from under the skirting board and enters the socket's backing box at the top right) is the drop cable from the pole. That drop cable has two twisted pairs within it. The wires coloured green & black are one pair (unused) and the wires coloured orange & white are the other pair (in use for telephony and the VDSL2 signal).
You have two other internal cables, each with a white sheath, that enter at the middle bottom of the backing box. As Black Sheep has observed, the first of those two cables does not have any of its wires connected. The second of those two cables has three of its wires connected to the lower front face-plate. That cable must therefore be the one that provides the telephony service to the other (downstairs) socket that you have mentioned.
So I would advise that you refit the NTE5/A to the backing box, plug the SSFP into the NTE5/A and the lower front face-plate into the SSFP. Now go around to each socket and plug in a telephone. Check that the phone works in every socket. If affirmative and the modem has achieved synchronisation with the cabinet DSLAM, then there is nothing wrong with the installation.
I suspect that the unconnected white cable, the first of the two discussed above, was a separate feed to another socket . . . a socket that has now been removed or one that you have not yet noticed!
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I agree with both previous comments.
If I was to be absolutely and totally nit picky. The black drop wire should have a little black sleeve over the end with just the orange/ white and currently redundant green black. This is mainly to keep the "Hypodemics" out of harms way. Those are the 3 steel Cantenary wires just sticking out from the black insualtion. they are not for any electrical use, but as a mechanical support for the drop wire. From the nick name you can guess that these are nasty to catch on your fingers.
The only other thing and this is the OCD bit of me, is that the extention wiring in the IDC connectors in the back of the face plate should come in from the other side. that little step on one side of the IDC block is a guide as to the length of surplus wire sticking out of the IDC before its cut. Any longer and you run into the potental of the "Tails" behaving like little antenne picking up interference . ALthough a proper IDC insertion tool should cut the tails off to the correct short lenght.
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The only other thing and this is the OCD bit of me, is that the extention wiring in the IDC connectors in the back of the face plate should come in from the other side. that little step on one side of the IDC block is a guide as to the length of surplus wire sticking out of the IDC before its cut. Any longer and you run into the potental of the "Tails" behaving like little antenne picking up interference . ALthough a proper IDC insertion tool should cut the tails off to the correct short lenght.
I knew something wasn't "quite right" in that photograph . . . but I just couldn't "put" a paw on it! Thank you. It is so obvious when it is "pointed out" . . . :)
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I have been inside my BT80 and NTE5 all I see is A & B wires, when I look at OPS Image 3 i can see three wires so the 3rd must be earth wire :-\ so how does one get an earth wire if you only have A & B or B & A from drop wire ?
http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm (http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm)
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Hmm . . . not an earth wire but the so-called "bell wire". ;)
In the OP's third image, we see the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/A. That and all the wiring connected thereto is the responsibility of the EU. The three IDCs seen there are numbered 2, 3 & 5. Blue wire to IDC2 (the B-wire). Orange wire to IDC5 (the A-wire). Green wire to IDC3 (the "bell wire", which originates from the junction between the 1.8 micro Farad capacitor and the 470 k Ohm resistor, series connected across the pair).
Note that the wires have coloured insulation to the current standard. Blue wire and Orange wire make up one twisted pair. Green wire and Brown wire make up the second twisted pair. (See the Kitz wiki, Internal Wiring (http://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php/Internal_Wiring) page.)
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It's kind of scary BC after looking at Kitz wiring page as my drop wire seems to be 1950's and 60's as I think there is also a black wire (five incoming wires) if I get a chance i'll open up the BT80 RF3 and take a photo of the wires :-[
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The Kitz wiki wiring page (http://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php/Internal_Wiring) covers details of the internal wiring that could be found in domestic premises -- possibly including the service feed -- but not the aerial drop cable.
I'm always interested to see photographs of any aspects of the telecommunications infrastructure and will be happy to give you an opinion on your particular wiring. Quite likely your drop cable is joined to a service feed cable and it is the end of the latter that you see at the BT80-RF3, not the end of the drop cable.
The first house in which my family had a telephone had been built in the early 1950s. The original aerial telephone wiring was a pair of cadmium-copper uninsulated wires running from an annular ring at the top of the pole to a bracket affixed to the house (just outside my bedroom window), supported on porcelain insulators at either end. Those cadmium-copper wires were then joined to a service feed cable which ran down the side of the house and entered via a hole in the window-frame, adjacent to the front door. From an earth spike ran a separate uninsulated copper wire which entered via the same hole in the window-frame. The incoming pair and the earth wire were terminated on a Block Terminal (http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/small/protector_03.jpg) with a pair of fuses and two shellac-coated carbon block (between each leg of the pair and earth -- an early over-voltage / lightening protection technique). From that Block Terminal ran a woven-cotton sheathed quad cable with four wires (blue, brown, green & orange) to a Block Terminal 20/4 (http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/large/20_4.jpg) from which the telephone instrument itself was connected. In the mid 1960s the uninsulated pair was replaced by an insulated drop cable with a cross-section of a figure-of-eight. The PVC was grey and the conductors were, again, cadmium-copper. It was very stiff and a right >:D to terminate. At that time, both block terminals were replaced with Block Terminal 52A (http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/large/52a_gpo.jpg)s, to coincide with the installation of a two-tone green, Mk 11, Type 706 Table Telephone (http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/large/706L_green.jpg).
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Looking from a perspective of future VDSL services (frequencies up to 200MHz+) I'd like to see a lot more attention paid to keeping the pair twisted as close to the terminations as possible.
You may view it as nitpicking but I view wiring like that as an xtalk emitter which vectoring probably won't improve much on future services.
I think a lot more attention to detail needs to be happening - your phoneline is not a 3kHz b/w transmission line these days ;)
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Looking from a perspective of future VDSL services (frequencies up to 200MHz+) I'd like to see a lot more attention paid to keeping the pair twisted as close to the terminations as possible.
b*cat nods in agreement. :angel:
A network designed for limited audio frequency usage being "persuaded" to carry VHF signals will always be sub-optimal.
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Newtronstar.
I've had a look at the link http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm
If you are using these instructions I would just make a couple of points.
1 I've noticed he has left the wires very, very short before terminating them. Its understandable to leave things tidy and keep as much wire short from picking up interfence. But always assume that if ever disconnecting a rie from a IDC, that you are not going to reterminate on the same bit of wire, but a new part further back. if ever reterminating, those wires get shorter. Engineers would normally start swearing under their breath when finding sockets with wire so short as on that web site. Often have to do the messy thing of "Piecing out" by adding a crimp with an extra new lenght of wire so that it will reach the IDC.
2 he's tied (the plastic wire ties) on the inner wires not the outer insulation. the outer insualtion is there to take the mechanical loads on the cable.
I always did "butterflies" . I would have the outer insualtion to where it was tied, the inner coloured wires I would extend as far as the opposite corner of the socket to the IDC terminals it was intended, before folding back 180 degrees and then terminating on the IDC. You get two loops like a shoe lace. or butterly wings. I'ld just bend these over over the top of the socket hole where a cable plugs in.
Its tidy, leaves plenty of spare for future work. No round open loops or coils to pick up interference. And not really that much extra possibility of picking up interference from those extra 70mm of wire.
Incidentley, terminations 1 and 6 marked as not used. Some times thses can be used to "push forward" onother pair of wires, if the building has a second line going to another NTE, extention socket, alarm unit in the building. So careful if these are connected before disconecting them.
The original intention for 1 and 6 was for power. The idea was a small transformer could be plugged into a power socket, a phone plug with additional DC power on terminals 1 &6 plugs into an extention. so any other phone equipment could get its additional power supply of its extention from 1 & 6.
As almost all equipment that needed additional power comes with its own mains adaptor, this was hardly needed. Only came across this sort of set up a few times. Once the visit was due to some one disconnecting the green 3rd pair fron an extention. The alarm system would not work. No power.
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Newtronstar.
I've had a look at the link http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm
If you are using these instructions I would just make a couple of points.
1 I've noticed he has left the wires very, very short before terminating them. Its understandable to leave things tidy and keep as much wire short from picking up interfence. But always assume that if ever disconnecting a rie from a IDC, that you are not going to reterminate on the same bit of wire, but a new part further back. if ever reterminating, those wires get shorter. Engineers would normally start swearing under their breath when finding sockets with wire so short as on that web site. Often have to do the messy thing of "Piecing out" by adding a crimp with an extra new lenght of wire so that it will reach the IDC.
I agree with you Ezzer don't snip of any wires coming in from the service cable into BT80 but the good thing about BT80 is it has screw terminals for A wire Earth wire and B wire so unlike the IDC terminals you don't need to snip off the end before reterminating just give them a good scrape with stanley knife blade.
And as for the IDC connection cable from BT80 to the NTE5 make sure you have a bit of slack as each IDC termination you will lose just under an inch of wire.
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'Only came across this sort of set up a few times. Once the visit was due to some one disconnecting the green 3rd pair fron an extention. The alarm system would not work. No power'.
You were lucky, Ezz. I attended too many faults whereby the green/white pair (T1/T6) had been used to supply another dial-tone.
If I mention the 'Renown System', you may appreciate what I'm talking about ??? ;) ;D
For info to others reading this thread, the 'Renown' was a small business system that could provide up to 4 extensions on one circuit number, but with the ability to be able to 'buzz' through to individual extensions, hold 3-way calling and a plethora of other functions usually only afforded to the larger business systems.
Of course, we've always had dip-stick engineers (nowhere near as many as today though), who assumed the green/white pair were unused as they would be on any other simple installation, and would proceed to 'nick' the said pair to provide a separate dial-tone for another circuit.
The amount of times the fault report on the HUSKY terminal would state, 'User has no LED display on their phone' was quite high. ::)
I GOOGLED this system whilst typing this and found this link ( https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CD8QFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.systemstl.co.uk%2Fitem%2F13694-bt-renown-manuals&ei=HNSpU4KHHe-v7Ab11IDwBA&usg=AFQjCNGBYdSRpyS6jYqamjOrKF64I_jSCg ? ............. got some great memories of installing these things, as they were quite often two-man jobs which usually meant having a laugh !! ;D ;D
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Do you remember these at all:-
http://www.britishtelephones.com/gec/tel1s.htm
We had a setup like this when I was a kid with an extension phone in my father's workshop about 200m across the road.
I think it was still in use when we moved house in 1976.
To call the home phone from the extension, there was a magneto in a separate box at the side of the handset.
I presume that went over a separate cable or separate pair carried by poles.
Either phone could dial out or receive calls (same number).
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Yes, I do remember them because my Grandma and her sister (Obviously, my Aunt) had this same 'Shared Line' system. I have personally never had to work on one, as they were all but phased out by the time I ended up on the spanners. :)