Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: jack21 on May 28, 2014, 12:59:47 PM
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Ballicom International are selling the new Billion Bipac 8800NL ADSL/VDSL modem/router for just £60.34 incl free 7-day delivery.
http://www.ballicom.co.uk/search/8800nl
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That's a good price. I've been thinking of getting one for testing purposes.
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Yes, looks good, Broadcom & snrm-adjust etc, and the best price I could find......I'm now waiting for mine to arrive!
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Great service from Ballicom and speedy free delivery too.....highly recommended seller.
I'll put a review on the Forum in due course after I can try it on someone's VDSL.....I'm only on ADSL, but the router is now doing a great job using ADSL2 - very easy to set up and tweak. Higher than usual sync rate and lovely GUI and facilities which I've not yet worked through.
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You've convinced me :)
I'm placing an order now.
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I'm really pleased with it, Eric. I've never bought a new router before......max was previously £20 for a used 7800.....and approx 200 routers have passed thru my hands.
Its working great on ADSL2, and with Routerstats ......and I'm leaving it online for the time being. I look forward to how you get on with one on VDSL.
GUI is superb, CLI is great, SNRM tweak is handy......and all sorts of facilities to explore.
Jack (Linux user: Mint 13, Fedora 16, Lubuntu too)
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I'm not on VDSL2 yet, but it's coming shortly, so I'll be able to test it on both. By the way, I've had confirmation from another user that DSLstats works perfectly with it, using the Billion 7800N settings.
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I received my 8800NL yesterday and have to say it is great and amazing value as well.
It is smaller than I expected but for me thats a good thing.
Using the quick setup feature I had it connected to my VDSL2 line in a few minutes and
its sync rate is the best of all the other modem/router combinations I have tried on my line.
The GUI is smart and quick to use and the amount of stats awailable via GUI is great.
I too have it running with DSLstats by selection the 7800N setting.
It would be nice if HG612 Stats program could support it as well but that will require some
modifications as the Telenet produces the prompt > and not ATP> that the program is currently
looking for. There may be other changes needed but I think they would be small as the telnet output is
the same as the HG612 modem as far as I can tell.
I would be happy to provide any support data/testing should an upgrade be on the cards.
It runs cool as does the power adaptor, another good thing.
I am not using the N wireless side of things which I have disabled since I have it hooked up
to my ASUS RT-N66U which is currently running a wireless AP with both 2.4 and 5 GHz access.
I was able to get it to update no-ip DDNS service as well.
It's early days yet but I think Billion have come up trumps with this one and I can recommend it to
others having issues with the HH5 looking for an all in one box solution, just a pity it does not have 5GHz wireless built-in.
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That's excellent news.....I'm pleased its doing so well for you on VDSL2 - I've got to wait for a while till FTTC appears here.....but I believe it won't be too long!
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It would be nice if HG612 Stats program could support it as well but that will require some
modifications as the Telenet produces the prompt > and not ATP> that the program is currently
looking for. There may be other changes needed but I think they would be small as the telnet output is
the same as the HG612 modem as far as I can tell.
I would be happy to provide any support data/testing should an upgrade be on the cards.
HG612 Modem Stats beta version 2.11 now supports the ZyXel VMG8324-B10A.
The Billion 'looks' similar regarding the prompt & that it also uses adsl as the command prefix rather than xdslcmd.
Assuming you still have HG612 Modem Stats v 2.0 or v 2.1 set up:-
The attached programs just need to be unzipped to the Scripts folder.
Then select the ZyXel VMG8324-B10A in the GUI from the modem selection (you'll have to also enter the Billion's password).
Then save the settings & see if it works.
If it does, great.
If not, could you post the telnet output from the adsl info --stats & adsl info --pbParams commands for me to have a look?
EDIT:
You might also have to change the modems IP address in the Stats logging GUI from the default of 192.168.1.1
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Please could you also post what you get with the commands "adsl --version" and "adsl" on its own. Thanks.
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Wow those files work a treat and it now supports the 8800NL, thanks Bald_Eagle1 you are the best.
I did not realise that the adsl command also worked on VDSL2 and thought it used the xdslctl one but
it seams both work, another thing I have learned.
@les-70 in response to your request here is the output as requested.
> adsl --version
adsl version 1.0
ADSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pv6F038j.d24h
> adsl
Usage: adsl start [--up] <configure command options>
adsl stop
adsl connection [--up] [--down] [--loopback] [--reverb]
[--medley] [--noretrain] [--L3] [--diagmode] [--L0]
[--tones <r1-r2,r3-r4,...>] [--normal] [--freezeReverb] [--freezeMedley]
adsl configure/configure1 [--mod <a|d|l|t|2|p|e|m|M3|M5|v>] [--lpair <(i)nner|(o)uter>]
[--trellis <on|off>] [--snr <snrQ4>] [--bitswap <on|off>] [--sesdrop <on|off>]
[--sra <on|off>] [--CoMinMgn <on|off>] [--i24k <on|off>] [--phyReXmt <0xBitMap-UsDs>]
[--Ginp <0xBitMap-UsDs>] [--TpsTc <0xBitMap-AvPvAaPa>] [--monitorTone <on|off>]
[--profile <0x00 - 0xFF>|<"8a |8b |8c |8d |12a |12b |17a">] [--us0 <on|off>]
[--dynamicD <on|off>] [--dynamicF <on|off>] [--SOS <on|off>] [--maxDataRate <maxDsDataRateKbps maxUsDataRateKbps maxAggrDataRateKbps>]
[--forceJ43 <on|off>] [--toggleJ43B43 <on|off>]
adsl bert [--start <#seconds>] [--stop] [--show]
adsl afelb [--time <sec>] [--tones] [--signal <1/2/8>]
adsl qlnmntr [--time <sec>] [--freq <msec>]
adsl inm [--start <INMIATO> <INMIATS><INMCC><INM_INPEQ_MODE><INM_INPEQ_FORMAT>] [--show]
adsl snrclamp [--shape <shapeId>] [--bpshape [bpIndex-bpLevel,]]
adsl nlnm [--show ] [--setThld <Thld_Num_Tones>]
adsl diag [--logstart <nBytes>] [--logpause] [--logstop] [--loguntilbufferfull <nBytes>] [--loguntilretrain <nBytes>] [--dumpBuf <sizeKb>]
adsl info [--state] [--show] [--stats] [--SNR] [--QLN] [--Hlog] [--Hlin] [--HlinS] [--Bits]
[--pbParams] [--linediag] [--linediag1] [--reset] [--vendor] [--cfg]
adsl profile [--show] [--save] [--restore]
adsl --version
adsl --help
>
Thanks to everyone on this forum for making it one of the best on the internet.
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Wow those files work a treat and it now supports the 8800NL, thanks Bald_Eagle1 you are the best.
:-[ :-[
That's great news (& the easiest 'fix' I've had to do to date).
I'll ask Ronski to add the BiIlion Bipac 8800NL to the list in his GUI.
Is "BiIlion" the correct spelling?
Thanks to everyone on this forum for making it one of the best on the internet.
I'll second that comment :)
Would you mind zipping one of the new Plink logs from the 8800NL & attach it to a response message?
There's something I'd like to check.
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The device name spelling is 'Billion BiPAC 8800NL'
Attached is the requested file.
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Thanks for that.
A couple of Billion specific tweaks are needed in my programs, but they will not affect the stats reporting/graphing, so you should be O.K. to continue using the ZyXel as the selected modem for now.
Just to confirm, is the ongoing stats modem_stats.log being updated correctly each minute?
You may wish to manually run graphpd.exe or click the Run graphPD button in the GUI to see if the graphing is working etc.
I would specify say 30 m (30 minutes) or 1 h (1 hour) when asked to enter the period to plot ===> to ensure the time along the x axis is correct until you have a full 24 hours worth of ongoing data.
FWIW, I can see that you have a fairly high DS Interleaving depth of 1175 & US Interleaving is OFF.
That COULD be due to a number of resyncs while you got the Billion set up?
How does it compare with when you were using the HG612?
However, your SNR (as shown in the combined Bits/SNR graph) does look look a little 'wobbly' & QLN isn't depicting the quietest of lines that I've seen.
Hlog looks good though (no evidence of bridged taps etc.) so your internal wiring must be installed correctly).
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Thanks for the information and analysis.
I can confirm the modem_stats.log is updating as expected each minute.
I have run the graphs with 1 h and all has worked without a hitch.
As for my current stats and the HG612 I was using, this device is syncing
around 4mbps better on DS than the HG612 with a similar US rate.
The D depth is also similar and is normally between 1125 and 1140 with INP 3 and delay 8ms
The error counts are a little bit less than the HG612 but not much.
I was the first to be connected to the cabinet in Feb this year and in first week I got sync at 73mbps DS / 19mbps US
on fast path but as the cabinet filled up I had crosstalk issues and it has slowly reduced to the current levels.
I noticed when houses next to me went live as the SNRM would drop at an instant by upto 1.2 db and never recover.
I can also see when these modems are restarted with a 5-10 minute display where SNRM jumps up and then returns to
its previous level.
The line is all underground and around 10 years old (age of the estate) and I think I am around 450m from the cabinet
but depending on the actual cable route may be as far as 550m away.
For a short time 3 weeks ago it went back on to fastpath but the line noise/interference returned and it is now interleaved again.
It is very quite most of the day light hours but suffers badly between 6pm and 11pm at night.
I wish BT Openreach would enable vector support as I think this would improve my service quite a bit.
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I wish BT Openreach would enable vector support as I think this would improve my service quite a bit.
Me too!!! - I think we'll just have to be patient, but I believe Vectoring is definitely on its way. Howsoon, who knows?
Thanks for your detailed & most useful comments above.
I'm now quite tempted to gat a XyXel or Billion to try on my connection now that I know my monitoring programs work.
I have gradually lost over 10 Mbps DS due to xtalk from at best a stable 30 Mbps sync speed on my possibly 1100m line.
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You've convinced me :)
I'm placing an order now.
Let us know how it performs :)
My mouse is hovering over the order button ;)
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I have gradually lost over 10 Mbps DS due to xtalk from at best a stable 30 Mbps sync speed on my possibly 1100m line.
Semi-OT but may be of interest.
I've seen an 800m loop with an aggregate bandwidth of 125Mbps using phantom mode (two phonelines) and just under 100Mbps on a 1km loop. The problems past 400m or so are more to do with insertion loss at the upper end of the relevant spectrum and there's a limited amount which can be done without adverse effects on adjacent pairs.
As an aside, if anyone knows any GOOD analogue electronic designers then there's serious demand for them in this area.
Oh and I'd be interested to know if the firmware for the 8800NL has the same "bodge" for Sky authing (MER) which the 8800N has. I could do with a backup router in case this Sky one dies.
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Authentication options displayed are: AUTO & PAP & CHAP & MSCHAP
Can't see any ref to SKY or MER
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> adsl --version
adsl version 1.0
ADSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pv6F038j.d24h
Thanks for trying the command. The F in ...F038.. means that the Broadcom chip should be the 63168 ( see http://bcm63xx.sipsolutions.net/AdslPhy ) that is the same as in the Zyxel VMG8324-B10A.
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Fantastic news :clap:
> adsl --version
adsl version 1.0
ADSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pv6F038j.d24h
Thanks for trying the command. The F in ...F038.. means that the Broadcom chip should be the 63168 ( see http://bcm63xx.sipsolutions.net/AdslPhy (http://bcm63xx.sipsolutions.net/AdslPhy) ) that is the same as in the Zyxel VMG8324-B10A.
Yep. I entered the Busybox shell (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13769.msg259371#msg259371) to get the cpuinfo to confirm it was a 63168.
Interesting that is version h, so even newer adsl phy.
around 4mbps better on DS than the HG612
Thats about the same improvement I got with the Zyxel... so as suspected its possibly the chipset & adsl phy which is pretty good :)
I really cant understand why Billion have only used a 10/100 switch... thats the main reason I discounted it a few months back.
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It is 1X1Gb and and 3X100/10 but your correct that is is a shame.
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It's not an issue for me, because I only use one port, which connects to an 8-port gigabit switch.
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It is 1X1Gb and and 3X100/10 but your correct that is is a shame.
I can't remember the EU standard but this will be for power reasons. All the major ISPs in the EU need to comply with various power standards - hence so do the routers.
If kitz' Zyxel follows the usual Zyxel pattern then it'll be capable of running a couple of VoIP ports (even if there's no sockets) which (IIRC) puts it into the next (EU) bracket up on power consumption. That allows (again IIRC) GigE on the ports.
I keep saying this & I'm not at all sure people believe a word of it but GigE in a typical broadband "hub" (I hate that word for networking reasons) will consume a LOT of power when compared with the xDSL front end & "routing overheads", especially if its the only switch on the network with multiple (in theory) GigE clients.
Thanks to the guy who replied with auth options - much appreciated even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear.
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@Rizla
Hiya, I just got this from Billion Support when I casually mentioned MER.....
So AOK?
**********************************
Hi Jack
Our 8800NL already supports Sky MER.
For a ADSL connection, it should be the standard settings eg PPPOA, VPI=0 VCI=38, enter the PPP username and password in sections provided.
For VDSL (Fibre) I have attached a example screen shot.
Please note, the user will have to extract the current broadband username and password from their current Sky equipment, more info can be found on the Sky userforum or on our forum on the attached link http://www.billion.uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2490
Thanks
Best Regards,
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Thanks very much jack21 that looks perfect, will get one ordered later this month.
I just want it as a backup for when the Sky SR102 either dies or Sky bugger up the firmware (as happened on 2504n, still isn't fixed properly). The SR102 is capable enough as long as you don't want to use wireless - I have a Ubiquiti access point so I'm not bothered about it.
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Please can someone report their impressions of the wireless performance of the 8800NL?
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Wi-fi impression:
I've just done a quick test on its 'G' performance, comparing it with my favourite wi-fi device, a WGR614. Sorry, no 'N' devices.
With either router in the front right hand corner of the house, downstairs, and a laptop in the rear left hand corner of the house, upstairs..........so max indoor distance:
Running wavemon to each in turn......
8800NL Signal Quality (at its best alignment) 93% Signal Strength around -70db
WGR614 SQ 92% and SS around -68db
Signal Quality is remarkably steady for both
Signal Strength varies by +/- 5db (approx)
So very little difference observed.
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That sounds encouraging I have used a WGR614G and found on g it was the same as a DG834G and certainly better than an average g device. I would guess that n would also be fine.
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I can't remember the EU standard but this will be for power reasons
I used to give that as an answer too.. but 10yrs on it doesnt cut it.
Not when you have connections approaching 100Mb (or more in the case of Virgin)... not do I find it an acceptable excuse when in theory you can get faster speeds via wi-fi than you can on the LAN if its only 10/100. Most PCs have been equiped with GBE cards for umm 5-8yrs?... so thats why I wont accept power as a valid reason anymore.
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It rather depends how much power you consider significant kitz. Four GigE ports will use roughly double the power of four 100Mbps ports. That probably equates to an increase from 1.5W to 4W maximum which is bugger all in the scheme of things but....
Unfortunately they have to comply with (IIRC) the "Ecodesign" EU directives and these can be quite tight if you're trying to fit in wireless & VDSL* - one of the reasons Sky moved the power supply into the SR101/102 AFAIK. Well that and reliability. Shame the PSU design seems to be out of a first-year electronics degree but there's the third reason, cost.
The directives only apply to devices which the telecos/ISPs supply (again IIRC) but the manufacturers pretty much just use the reference design anyway which will generally be compliant with the "guidance" in the directives. Its all well-meaning stuff but politics & engineering rarely end in good outcomes.
Things will have to change soon enough.
Anyway we digress (probably too much) from the topic. When my CC isn't reeling from the slings & arrows of outrageous fortune (heh, as if) I will order a 8800NL & see how it goes.
*current generation of chipsets take quite a lot of power, which will also have to change
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Concise view of performance after 6 days use, and various experiments.
ADSL2 Performance: I'm absolutely amazed by the high stability this has brought - in daylight hours - to my line. Currently, from around 04:30 to 21:00 'ish the SNRM is 6.1db with only + or - 0.1db variation. As night moves on, as usual the SNRM gradually decays by 1.5 to 2db (that is normal behaviour for any router on my line).
On other good routers, I could see, for example, my neighbour's washing machine being on (from 0.5 to 1.2db dip for the whole cycle), and there were other devices being turned on that would make 0.5db dips till they were turned off......and other momentary downspikes of maybe 1.xdb. With the 8800 set to ADSL2, all that daytime variation is absent!
The night-time decay of 1.5 to 2db is much the same as a DG834GT, and a Billion 7800 can decay by up to 3db.
No drop-outs or self-boots.
Sync Rate: Very much on a par with a DG834GT and Billion 7800.......possibly the DG834GT has a very slight edge, but its very marginal between all 3.
Tickover CRC rates are higher than others though, but not massively so - circa 1-3/min as opposed to less than 0.3/min, but when 'weather' is around, the 8800 does not react nearly as much as other routers. Edited (next morning): The CRC rate has within the last 2 hours unexpectedly dropped to near zero.
Bitswapping; maybe a little more active than say one of my DG834GT choice.......perhaps roughly 1.5 times as much....much more pronounced at night.
ADSL1 mode: Higher syn rates by +5 to 10%, but then significantly higher CRC error rates, and the SNRM stability is less good......the decreased SNRM stability and higher CRC rates make me choose an ADSL2 option.
ADSL2+ mode: lower sync rate by maybe 15%, somewhat lower CRC rate....estimate 90% of ADSL2.
ADSL2 mode: best of all, with results described above.
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The device name spelling is 'Billion BiPAC 8800NL'
A couple of Billion specific tweaks are needed in my programs, but they will not affect the stats reporting/graphing, so you should be O.K. to continue using the ZyXel as the selected modem for now.
I have now carried out those tweaks & have attached the relevant programs.
Could you please test the programs at your end & let me know if it is all still working?
For now, the ini file will have to be manually edited to change the Modem_type to Billion BiPAC 8800NL
If it all works, I’ll ask Ronski to add it to the modem selection list & release the full v 2.11 update for general download.
(I might actually name it as v 3.0.0.0 though as I've made quite a few changes, including adding ADSL compatibility for the HG612 that MIGHT also work for some other Broadcom chipped modems/routers that use 'adsl' rather than 'xdslcmd' for the telnet commands prefix).
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A week after sending back my Xyxel VMG8324 :( I decided to give a 8800NL a go. After a day or so with it I have been very pleased :). It has more limited specifications than the Xyxel but none of the missing features are of any concern to me and possibly most people if one gige is enough.
The 8800NL boots up and syncs roughly as fast as a HG612, that is much much faster than the Zyxel which took nearly 3 mins to power up, sync and negotiate. The gui response is immediate with only a delays of 1-2 sec if a change is actually made and applied. The Zyxel was slow and some changes lead to unexpected resyncs. e.g. an IP change. So far it looks like resyncs on the 8800NL only occur, as they must, when a WAN or dsl setting is changed.
Power usage is excellent at 4 watts all connected up synced and running with wlan. It drops to 3 watts if either the wlan or gige is not used. If neither is used, e.g. overnight I have seen odd flicks to 2 watts on my power meter.
On my vdsl2 connection there is a gain in attainable of 1.8Mb/s (same as with the Zyxel)and the 8800NL errors rates are much the same as with the HG612. (My Zyxel was almost certainly faulty as the errors were very much larger with it - hence its return)
If you wish to cap your vdsl sync it is easier on the 8800NL as vdsl can be disabled via the gui and then enabled by sending e.g. an "adsl configure --mod v --maxDataRate 66000 16500 100000" command after power up. On the Zyxel it does not seem possible to disable vdsl via the gui. I seem to need this as the erratic up to 5db srnm (more usually 3-4 db) changes on my line, as other others switch on and off and go on hols seemed to cause the DLM to keep moving the connection settings about and ending up antiphase to the prevailing conditions. Note that my worst case of a 5db srnm change is about a 20Mb/s change in attainable and is possible inside 48 hours. I have set a max speed a bit lower than the worst case so as to ensure that I always have at least 8db srnm when on fast path. This so far has kept me on fast path and most importantly avoided daytime resyncs due to dropping snrm. I did think the DLM would cap my speed itself but sometimes my snrm is steady for a week or more possibly at high or low values and the DLM just does not seem to cope sensibly. By the time it decides that my snrm has gone up/down, the srnm goes down/up
My previous config was an HG612 and Dlink DIR655. The wireless performance on the 8800NL seems the same as the Dir655 and is viewed by me as good. The HG612 was bridged to the DIR655 which did the ppoe, it has all ports gige. With the 8800NL the download throughput in speed tests (with sync speeds fixed to be the same) seem to be better by 1-2 Mb/s.
An overall attenuation figure is not reported (on vdsl) either by gui or adsl commands except for the pbParams stats.
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After a another 5 days my positive views remain.
I did play one day to see if I could swap the adsl_phy.bin with the later 039 version. No luck as the command "adsl stop" which should cause the dsl sync to dropped (and thus allow a "adsl start --up" to load the new adsl_phy) does not work as expected. It seems to totally freeze the device ??? leaving no access by gui or telnet. A power on and off gets back to normal.
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Hi, sorry for the delay in testing the supplied tweaked code with Billion 8800NL support but I
have been away from home for a while.
I have put the 2 unzipped files in the working directory and manually edited the modem
type in the settings file as detailed.
I can confirm that all runs as expected and I am able to harvest data and create graphs as normal.
I will run the code for an extended time now and report back if any issues show up but for now
all is looking well for the new release.
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Thanks for the feedback, VDSL2User.
Kitz has mentioned that when her Zyxel modem resynced, the SET_HG612_DATE_AND_TIME.exe program ended up 'stuck' as did HG612_stats.exe.
Ending those processes via Task Manager got everything working again though.
I imagine the same issue would crop up with your Billion as the SET_HG612_DATE_AND_TIME.exe program should have been disabled for non-HG6xx modems - but it wasn't (assuming the Billion actually auto syncs it's internal clock with a time server following a modem resync/reboot.
I have attached a new version of HG612_stats.exe for you (Date & Time setting disabled for non-HG6xx modems), along with a new GUI version.
The included Modems.txt file also needs to be extracted/copied to the 'Scripts\Editor' folder in order that Zyxel & Billion modems (for now) can be selected via the GUI.
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Thanks Bald_Eagle1 for the new beta version.
Now you come to say I think I did see the SET_HG612_DATE_AND_TIME.exe running
and it did get stuck on a couple of occasions which needed task manager to cancel it.
I have noticed that when the Billion modem is selected the output in the GUI for
Firmware Version now reads N/A however the DSL driver release is still available via
adsl info --version (in my case it is A2pv6F038j.d24h) should this not still be listed/recorded ?
Another thing about the modem time I have noticed is after a reboot (not a resync) it does not appear
to automatically sync with the time servers, however on the opening web status page there
is a SYNC button along side the time which if pressed does set the modems date/time correctly.
I will continue to runs this new version and report back any issues that spring up.
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Thanks Bald_Eagle1 for the new beta version.
Now you come to say I think I did see the SET_HG612_DATE_AND_TIME.exe running
and it did get stuck on a couple of occasions which needed task manager to cancel it.
Hopefully that issue is now resolved.
I have noticed that when the Billion modem is selected the output in the GUI for
Firmware Version now reads N/A however the DSL driver release is still available via
adsl info --version (in my case it is A2pv6F038j.d24h) should this not still be listed/recorded ?
As far as I am aware, The GUI reads its data from "xlogfile.txt" as stored in the same folder as "modem_stats.log"
Ronski (who wrote the GUI) could take into account any differences in the format of xlogfile.txt or I could amend its format for Zyxel and Billion modems.
Could you post a screenshot of the GUI for Ronski & me to determine the best way to deal with this?
I suppose it's 'possible' that some of the other data is being displayed in the wrong places.
Is the Billion's firmware version correctly reported in the 'snapshot' montage & the Plink logs?
Another thing about the modem time I have noticed is after a reboot (not a resync) it does not appear
to automatically sync with the time servers, however on the opening web status page there
is a SYNC button along side the time which if pressed does set the modems date/time correctly.
Maybe there is a setting somewhere in the Billion's own GUI that could determine how & when it syncs with the time servers?
My Netgear router syncs with the time servers shortly after each time it disconnects/reconnects, but I can't actually find a setting to select when it does it.
I will continue to runs this new version and report back any issues that spring up.
Thanks for that.
It not too easy to set things up properly without the actual hardware to test it on.
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Here is a copy of xlogfile and a screen capture of my current running 3.0 beta GUI
showing the Firmware listed as N/A
As far as I can tell all the other values are in the correct fields on the display.
If you need any further information or files feel free to ask and I will be happy to assist.
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It seems the raw data form the HG612 & the Zyxel/Billion modems is slightly different:-
HG612:-
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.0 5.7
Attn(dB): 24.8 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.5 6.9
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 26 54
Zyxel/Billion:-
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.0 5.7
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.4 7.6
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 23
The Zyxel/Billion modems data contains a few blank rows as shown above, meaning that by the time the firmware version data command is reached, the HG612 & the Zyxel/Billion are at different rows.
Some compensation had been made, but clearly not quite correctly.
Please try the attached version of HG612_stats.exe & let me know if the issue is fixed.
If not, please post a copy of the new xlogfile.txt for me to see what differences still remain.
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It still appears to display N/A in the GUI, new xlogfile attached as requested.
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Thanks for that.
I have emailed Ronski, asking him to take a look at the GUI code to see if he could apply a fix for this as I don't actually have the code for the GUI.
I have sent him the before & after xlogfiles from your connection along with an example from my HG612 connection, so he should hopefully be able to deal with the issue accordingly.
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Ronski has just amended the code for his GUI.
Please try the attached version & confirm whether the issue is now fixed or not.
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That has done the trick and the firmware version is now displayed as expected.
Many thanks Bald_Eagle1 and Ronski for your support and effort.
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Your welcome, please note the Program versions and updates tab is a work in progress, so is not fully functional, hence I haven't released a beta version yet.
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It is probably somewhere in the 8800NL specs but I must have missed it and I asked support re vector. They replied "Regarding vectoring, the 8800NL already supports vectoring"
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First post on this forum!
Anyway, I bought the 8800NL yesterday, I'm actually using it for ADSL2 at the moment (fibre just launched in my area). I have to say, this is superb with my current line. I've gained 1.2mbit (from 3.1 to 4.3) on my download, fastest I've ever seen it at this address. This was achieved by reducing the SNR... Stable connection so far 8).
Hopefully it performs well once I get fibre in ;D.
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Since I've dropped below 900KB/Sec upload from the original high of 1.1MB/Sec, I'm now interested in superior VDSL2 modems compared to the HG612. This thread seems pretty positive but focuses on download - can anyone with VDSL2 comment on how much their upstream increased by with this modem?
Thanks
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Simple Simon Quickie
How good is it's range on ADSL 2/2+ connections compared to ISPs' eqpt e.g Technicolor 582N?
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The Billion UK web site now has a new firmware for the 8800NL. I will be trying it tomorrow. It is stated to have the later 039 dsl driver :) , note the warning about waiting 10 mins !!! for the upgrade to complete. The upgrade sounds as though it may correct the upgrade bug that causes that long time.
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In fact I re-flashed last night. The upgrade completed in 2 mins quite normally. Settings are lost in the upgrade but i had saved the config file so no issue. Sync speed is about 2Mb/s better at 76M/bs :) and so far errors about the same. Error rates take a while to be sure of though.
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Thanks for that. I re-flashed mine yesterday, although I'm not actually using it at the moment. I didn't take any risks, and left it sitting for the full 10 minutes. My intention is to set it up for VDSL2 when it arrives here.
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So far, I'm delighted with the 8800NL.
I'm using it on VDSL2, and the stats are all visible on MyDSLWebStats, via BaldEagle2 & Ronski's excellent monitoring and logging software.
Same username as on here, if anyone wants to take a look.
The GUI doesn't display software version, CPU Version, or CFE version (yes, in the GUI, only CPU has "Version" instead of "version", so a slight inconsistency there.
Firmware version is displayed as "A2pv6F039g1d24m", with change detected 15/09/2014 at 02:50 (yes, I'm an insomniac).
You are welcome to any other help I can give with testing (I'm something of a tech, having set up some pretty major networks in my time) so reasonably competent at gathering debugging information.
I do try to keep good uptime, as I'm in the NTP Pool.
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Did you notice your upstream bandwidth improve at all which this modem compared to the stock, and roughly by how much?
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Did you notice your upstream bandwidth improve at all which this modem compared to the stock, and roughly by how much?
Yes - about 15%, and 5% or so on the downstream.
But as I've been messing about with it (I'm routing a /29 subnet, which by default is blocked from the outside world until you get a rule into the filter to allow it - a real pain, as it put my mailserver and NTP server offline for several hours), which has necessitated a few restarts, it's dropped off again.
I hope it will recover - I'm now going to try a period of undisturbed running in the hope that line management will back off.
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Hmm, thats very good news, thanks for the response. My upstream continues to drop - now synced at 810KB/Sec, rather than the 1.1MB/Sec that I got originally.
Edit: Just bought one myself, will be interesting to see how good it is.
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The Billion UK web site now has a new firmware for the 8800NL. I will be trying it tomorrow. It is stated to have the later 039 dsl driver :) , note the warning about waiting 10 mins !!! for the upgrade to complete. The upgrade sounds as though it may correct the upgrade bug that causes that long time.
may be i nned to get my cataracts done soon ;D but I cannot find link to firmware upgrade. I am still on A2pv6F038j.d24h. Also I'm not sure about saving the existing configuration, presuming that is the htm file in the status section, and how to fit it in once the firmware upgrade is complete. heeelp!
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The firmware upgrade can be found on this link
http://billion.uk.com/esupport/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/92
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Or http://www.billion.uk.com/esupport/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/362/107/bipac-8800nl-232ddh14-firmware.
Billion usually recommend that you upgrade with the default configuration initially, then set up the device from scratch afterwards. But it shouldn't do any harm to save the current configuration then reload it after the upgrade. I haven't got the 8800NL running at the moment, but on the Billion 7800DXL the place to do this is Configuration --> System --> Backup/Update.
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I'm a little confused as the links refer to version 2.32d.dh14 whilst I mentioned my present A2pv6F038j.d24h and I found a reference to what seems to be a newer A2pv6F039g1d24m.
To confuse me further I have also found in my status page a reference to software version
2.32d.dm2. Naif moi,"dh precedes dm" further discohfusion therapy experts forward!
BTW still ADSL 2+
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The firmware version 2.32d.dh14 is the latest 8800NL code for the entire router/modem system and contains
the latest binary DSL driver version A2pv6F039g1.d24m as well as wireless driver code and web page support.
The important part of the DSL driver name is that 038j goes to 039g and this is embedded in the firmware release.
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Thanks! I'm too easily confused! Would it be necessary prefereable to do the installation off line, antivirus disabled?
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When upgrading a modem/router's firmware it is always sensible to disconnect the device from the xDSL.
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I upgraded my 8800NL to 2.32d.dh14 yesterday, not because I had any dissatisfaction with the previous .dm2 , but just to be current. The upgrade worked fine and after restoring the backup config settings file, all connected fine. The stats immediately showed an increase in downstream power from the usual 17.2 to 17.4 and the sync rate remained almost the same at 3225 (used to be 3232).....but the max linerate dropped from its previous 3800 to 3580. OK, no problem, gave it 24 hours to bed-in. Oh dear, the usual extreme stability of the SNRM - previously varying during daytime by +/- 0.1db now varied by +/- 0.3db from minute-to-minute and the CRC error rate tripled from 20/min to 75/min (average over a 24 hour period.....a low 5/m in daytime and higher 250/m during dark hours).
So today I've reverted to firmware 2.32d.dm4 ..... I don't have a copy of the original 2.32d.dm2 but I understand the difference between .dm2 and .dm4 is purely cosmetic .... and lo and behold it is now performing brilliantly as it had done up till yesterday. Stats are power 17.2db, SNRM 5.1, Sync Rate 3225, Max Rate 3812 and SNRM variation is +/- 0.1db
So for my particular router on my specific very long line (57.5db on ADSL2), the older firmware is the better choice. It may be a different case for other lines and scenarios though.
The 8800NL is by far and away the very best modem/router out of the 130+ others I've experimented with since 2008 and I'm so happy with it that I've ended my quest for the best I can find.......I've found it!
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So zip file is downloaded, but where do I extract it to? I see the file is .afw too so what to use to open?
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Just unzip it and save the .afw file anywhere convenient. Then go to the 8800NL browser interface and navigate to the firmware upgrade page (possibly Configuration --> System --> Firmware Upgrade) and press the Browse button to find the .afw file which you saved.
Remember to save your configuration first.
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Info: Billion Support have now made the earlier 2.32d.dm2 firmware available on the Billion Forum in case anyone chooses to revert to it.
They have a truly excellent support service......speedy, accurate, friendly and ultra-helpful.
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Just unzip it and save the .afw file anywhere convenient. Then go to the 8800NL browser interface and navigate to the firmware upgrade page (possibly Configuration --> System --> Firmware Upgrade) and press the Browse button to find the .afw file which you saved.
Remember to save your configuration first.
Soon after I posted I found the info. Thanks tho. :) All is now done. I had saved my old configuration but did not need it, as you can now select to use either default or existing settings.
Nothing particular on speed etc
adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 8000
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 888 Kbps, Downstream rate = 8940 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 888 Kbps, Downstream rate = 8147 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+ Annex A
TPS-TC: ATM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.1 8.5
Attn(dB): 46.5 27.2
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 12.7
ADSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 59 10
B: 126 13
M: 1 8
T: 2 9
R: 10 16
S: 0.4968 4.0000
L: 2206 256
D: 64 8
Counters
Bearer 0
SF: 155187 139178
SFErr: 11 0
RS: 20174106 2505220
RSCorr: 2507 494
RSUnCorr: 163 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 58 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 48152013 5238923
Data Cells: 1428274 93700
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 6816 0
ES: 7 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 1733 1733
AS: 2506
Bearer 0
INP: 1.00 2.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 8 8
PER: 16.14 18.00
OR: 32.20 7.11
AgR: 8148.08 892.51
Bitswap: 701/701 11/11
Total time = 1 hours 10 min 39 sec
FEC: 2507 494
CRC: 11 0
ES: 7 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 1733 1733
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 10 min 39 sec
FEC: 152 243
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 365 168
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 10 min 39 sec
FEC: 2507 494
CRC: 11 0
ES: 7 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 1733 1733
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 41 min 45 sec
FEC: 2507 494
CRC: 11 0
ES: 7 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
>
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Right, I've finally finished work with this router - my upstream sync rate has gone down yet again due to all the stopping and starting testing stuff, so I'm now synching at 778KB/Sec up.... not happy, but with today's upgrade to the latest firmware I'm hoping for this to improve significantly. I guess if not, its nothing to do with the modem but crosstalk or unacceptable DLM.
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Right guys, I just ordered Billion Bipac 8800NL today arrived tomorrow before 12pm next day business. I can't wait to test this out. My first ever using Billion. The past I always use Netgear, Asus, BT Openreach Modem and now Billion Bipac 8800NL. I hope I won't regret it. ;) :angel:
Wish me luck. I will updated latest firmware 1st thing before plugging into VDSL line.
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What are the settings step by step for connect VDSL2 with plusnet?
The instruction is too complicated for all different settings for ADSL2/VDSL2 etc. I was looking up kitz routers for any screenshot step by step for VDSL2 setting connection but there are none for this model. Billion Bipac 8800NL
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I've prepared mine for VDSL2 by using the Quick Start setup and just filling in the necessary details as I went through it. I used Kitz' guide to setting up the ZyXEL VMG8324-B10A as a reference for what to enter in the options.
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Ok thanks. Still waiting for my new Billion bipac 8800nl to be delivered and to start off. I will post screenshot before and after to compare the speed on openreach modem and billion router.
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I would be very interested if you can do a careful comparison with the HG612. I sync in the region of 75Mb/s. With the Billion I get a 4Mb/s attainable increase but only a 2Mb/s sync increase (same as I had with the ZyXEL VMG8324-B10A). The minor issue I have with the Billion (and all the BCM63168 devices I have tried) is a x1.5 increase in errored seconds c.f. the HG612 ( with 038 dsl driver). The extra error rate does not seem related to the higher sync as if i cap the speed of both the HG612 and Billion to the same value the error rate difference remains. It is very hard to judge but looking at the stats over the day my impression is that the Billion and other 63168 devices don't respond so well to odd bigger error events. i.e. the the extra error count does not occur each hour but seems to come from odd bigger events each day. If this is the case others may or may not experience the same error rate changes, e.g Kitz has no noticable error change.
I note some other modems tests in http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14467.0
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My Billion finally here. Got start off teething problem as the quick set up had failed VDSL2. As I have to change few settings on VDSL2 to put Vlan8021p on 2 and VlanMuxId on 101 and it worked ok. The firmware was updated straight away to the latest version before I start off with VDSL2.
Before on BT Openreach Modem and After on new Billion 8800NL:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The HEC, CRC and ES is quite alot with Billion 8800NL than BT Openreach Modem. HEC clocked up 266 errors, CRC clocked up 19 errors and ES clocked up 15 errors in just one hour and 58 minutes compared to BT Openreach Modem after 38 days the HEC errors was 1250, CRC was 916 and ES was 535.
My biggest concern is will DLM going to put me on interleaved as Billion are doing more errors than BTO Modem?
Full stats:
adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 36047 Kbps, Downstream rate = 103008 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 12.3 23.0
Attn(dB): 11.6 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.4 0.1
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 239 237
M: 1 1
T: 23 42
R: 0 16
S: 0.0955 0.3781
L: 20104 5374
D: 1 1
I: 240 127
N: 240 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 4341940 1809437
OHFErr: 19 1
RS: 0 2948353
RSCorr: 0 76
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 266 0
OCD: 1 0
LCD: 1 0
Total Cells: 1104589323 0
Data Cells: 7311705 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 15 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 29 29
AS: 7176
Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 1.65 3.98
OR: 116.09 64.22
AgR: 80103.09 20063.54
Bitswap: 11/11 5/5
Total time = 2 hours 11 sec
FEC: 0 76
CRC: 19 1
ES: 15 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 29 29
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 11 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 4
CRC: 5 1
ES: 4 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 2 hours 11 sec
FEC: 0 76
CRC: 19 1
ES: 15 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 29 29
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 1 hours 59 min 41 sec
FEC: 0 76
CRC: 19 1
ES: 15 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
HELLO Billion BiPAC 8800NL
adsl info --pbParams
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 36047 Kbps, Downstream rate = 103008 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 36047 kbps 103008 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 0.1 dBm 12.4 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 2.6 13.4 20.5 N/A N/A 6.9 15.8 26.0
Signal Attenuation(dB): 2.6 12.6 19.6 N/A N/A 9.0 15.6 25.9
SNR Margin(dB): 23.0 23.1 22.9 N/A N/A 12.3 12.3 12.3
TX Power(dBm): -15.2 -30.2 -0.1 N/A N/A 8.2 7.8 7.0
Good Bye Billion BiPAC 8800NL
adsl --version
adsl version 1.2
ADSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pv6F039g1.d24m
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You will see a couple of posts above that errors with all the 63168 modems are my concern. If it is any consolation I found the ZyXEL much worse than the Billion in this respect. For the moment I would not worry as those errors are still too low to bother the DLM. Also modems often give a few more errors in the first hour when bit swapping is working the loading away from problem tones. I would always compare over 24 hours and in the case of the HG612 and Billion, use the same power supply and adsl lead for both of them so only the modem changes.
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I thought the dslam like the BCM chipset 63168? If the DLM was hit before next week. The only way is reserve back to Openreach Modem and let DLM do the work to go back to normal fastpath. But, I do hope that DLM won't be bother about the error rate over 24 hours period.
What are the maximum HEC, CRC and ES errors over 24 hours before DLM was hit?
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I would love to know. I hope I am corrected but my impression is that people with less than 60 and certainly less than 30 error-ed seconds per hour are usually on fast path.
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Overall disappointed with Billion as it now average 13.3 ES error per hour (4 hours ongoing connected) compare BT Openreach Modem 0.0 ES error per hour (4 hours connected)
Do u think I should go back to BT Openreach Modem now (otherwise DLM might strike my line overnight)? :(
[attachment deleted by admin]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Below are errors
[attachment deleted by admin]
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As I am a antediluvian on ADSL2+, May be my errors are not particularly relevant.
My error rates are much lower. Uptime rates/minute: CRC 1.32; HEC 30.8; ES 0.63
over 5days 5 hours. Interleave 64
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I think I best go back to standard openreach modem with netgear router (don't want to leave billion overnight with DLM will decide to put me on interleave ON)
Maybe the modem latest firmware cause more errors?
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Those errors are so very low and I dont think theyd go noticed by the DLM.
I get some sort of noise bursts in the evening which can be more than that.. and the DLM hasnt noticed.
Graph.. just as my evening bitswap has started.. it will get higher as the evening goes on
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I went back to openreach modem but connected to Billion WAN ethernet as openreach modem now can see CRC, ES, HEC errors disappear! Sound like VDSL Modem on the billion are not good for the FTTC cos of too many errors.
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Whilst (as I noted in recent posts) I have found error rates increased with all BCM 63168 modems your increase seems rather a large one. I found the Billion gave me the lowest error rates of the 63168 devices I tried. It may just be down to different line and error sources. However although it is a long shot, in a day or so when your line has settled down you could return to the Billion using the HG612 power supply and same adsl lead. It is rare to be the case but, if you changed power supply to the Billion one, the Billion power supply might possibly be the cause of the errors. After that you could also revert back to the earlier Billion firmware which apart from having the previous 038 c.f. 039 dsl driver has no faults. It is available on the Billion forum and some others have gone back to it.
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Interesting I think I leave it for now cos if I kept swap over again then DLM will hit my line overnight. I will try again by the weekend.
Weirdo. BTO Modem reported the first 81 minutes with no errors below:
Total time = 1 hours 21 min 24 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 16 16
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
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previous 038 c.f. 039 dsl driver has no faults. It is available on the Billion forum and some others have gone back to it.
do u mean this firmware ETEC8800NL_2.32d.dm2.afw ?
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Yes that is the one. I have not tried going back to it myself but will do sometime to compare performance more carefully. i think it gave few less errors but not quite such a big attainable improvement.
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Cheers I will try openreach power supply on the billion router, if the error still high, then next step revert back to ETEC8800NL_2.32d.dm2.afw firmware. If both still the same high errors then the billion will go back (possible faulty modem) cause the error too much.
I was wondering sometimes why do BT put DLM on FTTC? I think no ones seem like DLM at all.
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Updated it proved that BT Openreach Modem is no errors than Billion after 3 hours and 31 minutes
Total time = 3 hours 31 min 49 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 16 16
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
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Be careful max. The amount of errors you were seeing was very small and not sufficient to attract the attention of the DLM.
Im pretty certain it doesnt look at CRCs and FECs as a trigger. Im also not too convinced that it uses Err/Secs either... because 1 CRC will trigger an ErrSec.. so IMHO its more likely to look at SES and UAS.
You are however very likely to attract the DLMs attention through keep swapping routers. I hope you are powering down correctly and waiting before putting the new one back on the line.
Plus as has already been mentioned, things like CRCs may take a little while to settle down after putting a different router on. When I was on adsl2+ I could go weeks without a single CRC error, but it would always give me a handful or so straight after a resync.
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I put Billion bipac back on with the same latest version. And leave it for few days to settle down. Yes, I did powered down and wait for 10 minutes to swap the modem. To avoid DLM.
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Arrrrrrrgggggg - my line is now hit by DLM this morning! ??? :o >:(
I give up Billion 8800NL as my cabinet doesn't like this hardware (788 CRC, 1214 HEC and 112 ES overnight). First time my FTTC hit by DLM since first activated last February.
Will never use this Billion 8800NL ever again.
Going back to openreach modem as because it never hit me with DLM.
Question is how long do I have to wait before DLM put me back on 79999k fastpath and turn off interleaved.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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In all honestly its more likely swapping over the routers too many times in one day that will have caused it - 10 mins isnt enough. I always leave it at least half an hour.
Aardvark got caught out by exactly the same thing recently when swapping routers.
Ive just looked at some other stats to check their overnight CRCs - Chrys 131, wombat 236, BE 658, BE is not interleaved and his rate of E/S is way more than yours.
I noticed that Eric has a heck of a lot overnight probably a few thousand and his lines not interleaved either.
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I got hit by the DLM when testing the TP-link, It didnt take too long once Id put the Zyxel back on for it to clear (which has a BCM 63168).
I dont know how long it had been on for though due to the TP-link not having proper monitoring... but I reckon only a few days.
Aardvarks took 14 days to clear.
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How long do I have to wait before DLM decided to put me back as where I was before on fastpath 79999K?
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As I said above.. mine seemed to only take about a week, but I dont know how long I'd been interleaved for cause I couldnt tell properly when on the TPlink.
Ardvark who was caught by swapping routers and resyncing the line to change settings.... it took his line 14 days.
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No wonder why we all hate the dreaded DLM by BT. Plusnet say they will not reset DLM at the cabinet. They cannot do it.
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Whilst in your position I would disappointed in the 8800NL errors c.f. the HG612 I agree with Kitz that the cause of the DLM action will almost certainly be the number of resyncs you initiated over 24 hours.
My ISP, TTB, advised that on the 5 or 6th resync in 24 hours a DLM intervention is almost guaranteed, whilst less than that will usually have no impact regardless of time intervals. That said, experience has shown that ISP folk often don't know as much as the average kitz user! I have however found that I don't get intervention if the max number in 24 hours does not exceed 4. Usually I leave a good gap of more than 30 mins but at times when testing I don't want to give the line much time change to change and then I have always got away with 4 rapid resyncs in a day.
Yesterday I was running the HG612 today it is the 8800NL and I will post the 24 hours stats for both this evening when the Billion 24 hours is up.
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Someone should report to Billion of why is this hardware 8800NL cause more errors quickly than BT Openreach Modem!
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Whilst my impression is that all 63168 modems are more vulnerable to some noise sources most people don't have trouble with them. On my line the 8800NL was the best of the 63168 bunch and the errors even if bigger (typically 50% bigger) seem quite acceptable.
The 63168 chipset may be sacrificing one thing to do better on another we just don't know. It is also quite important to remember what kitz said :-- we also don't know exactly how the DLM evaluates errors.
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Interesting from Plusnet staff reply to me saying: BT are working on a tool (FTTC DLM RESET) to allow providers to do this remotely and at request but this is a little way off at the moment.
SCREW U DLM ! I well peed off with DLM
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Here are my 24 hour stats with an HG612 and the 8800NL with 039 dsl driver firmware. Both are sync capped to 72M/bs. An abbreviated connection stats for each is below.
The HG612 gave 10.5 errored sec c.f. 15.5 with the 8800NL -- this is consistent with past tests.
For CRC and SES with difference is not just a factor of ~1.5 but a factor of ~4.
As noted before all the 63168 devices gave me a higher attainable and a bit more bit loading in the D3 band (even if capped). Those with better experiences with the 63168 may have more benign noise in the D3 band. On my line the 8800NL was the best of the 63168 devices for errors.
The 63168 is advertised for extra built in features relevant to a modem router and not features relating to its modem aspects. These extras may have introduced some issues for the modem side or it may be that Broadcom have simply opted for a higher sync at the expense of other things. If it was just aiming for a higher sync I would have hoped to have removed the extra errors with the speed cap. My feeling is that the speed cap puts both devices on level playing field.
I have been using the 8800NL quite happily as I like an all-in-one. I do however suspect that the HG612 is best option for my line. Before that I will give the 8800NL another careful trial with the previous 038 firmware.
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On my line the 8800NL was the best of the 63168 devices for errors.
Thanks les... and yes the observations between 2 firmwares would be very interesting too. As you know I dont appear to have the same issue as you on a 63168.
It would also be interesting to see how erics line performs with the 8800NL on his new line. Im pretty certain that it was the swapping of routers that caused the DLM to intervene on adslmax's line and not the ErrSecs.
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And interesting that your DLM haven't been hit yet? I think it probably down to my own fault for modem swap over too much and probably DLM take no notice of my Billion errors but force to put me on interleaved on because of too much disconnected?
Here is my stats on openreach modem for 10 hours ongoing since DLM was hit.
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 38017 Kbps, Downstream rate = 105908 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 72946 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 10.3 14.8
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.5 -0.3
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 47 28
M: 1 1
T: 64 64
R: 16 10
S: 0.0209 0.0461
L: 24450 6772
D: 1147 679
I: 64 39
N: 64 39
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 28852273 1191063
OHFErr: 0 1
RS: 3091214195 3199185
RSCorr: 4749 18371
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Path 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 1148195365 0
Data Cells: 21488176 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 19 19
AS: 38821
Path 0
INP: 3.00 4.00
PER: 1.34 4.42
delay: 6.00 8.00
OR: 119.38 65.11
Bitswap: 12 30
Total time = 10 hours 47 min 24 sec
FEC: 4749 18371
CRC: 0 1
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 19 19
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 2 min 24 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 10 hours 47 min 24 sec
FEC: 4749 18371
CRC: 0 1
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 19 19
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Since Link time = 10 hours 47 min 1 sec
FEC: 4749 18371
CRC: 0 1
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
#
So I have to pray hopefully tomorrow DLM will think my line is good enough and put me back on the maximum rate and fast path. Only wait and see.
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mhmmm yep that what I said. Others get far more errors than you did and the DLM leaves them alone.
The only time EVER that Ive been caught by the DLM is when I used the TP-link. There was an issue with the first fw... which looked like from what I could see that bitswap wasnt working correctly - seee a low bitswap count isnt always good thing. Theyve sorted it though now.. but not before my line took a hammering and struggled to retain 80/20. I didnt notice till much later that the DLM had kicked in (no proper stats!) .. which is why I dont know how long it took to be corrected.. my guess is a week.
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1 - does this have the same new broadcom as the zyxel kitz highly rates?
2 - does it support bridge mode so I can use it like the hg612 as modem only?
3 - can it collect full stats via eric's or BE's tools?
on #2 I think it has briodge mdoem but ideally would like somene to confirm, quote from specs.
Bridged or routed Ethernet encapsulation
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Do u think it will resync itself in the next days to a week to bring my FTTC back as it was. As I leave it alone for now. Let the DLM work it out. I hope it will be a week as plusnet staff warned me it could take up to six months for the DLM to act. WTF six months?
and today i don't feel happy at all. i hate when my sync rate get lower and worse case ip profile is dropped from 77.43Mbps to 70.6Mbps and throughput speed was far worse at 67Mbps now. And horrible high ping before was 8ms and now 24ms.
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Be careful max. The amount of errors you were seeing was very small and not sufficient to attract the attention of the DLM.
Im pretty certain it doesnt look at CRCs and FECs as a trigger. Im also not too convinced that it uses Err/Secs either... because 1 CRC will trigger an ErrSec.. so IMHO its more likely to look at SES and UAS.
You are however very likely to attract the DLMs attention through keep swapping routers. I hope you are powering down correctly and waiting before putting the new one back on the line.
Plus as has already been mentioned, things like CRCs may take a little while to settle down after putting a different router on. When I was on adsl2+ I could go weeks without a single CRC error, but it would always give me a handful or so straight after a resync.
kitz I think its daily ES count or ES count per a set interval, BS has mentioned MTBE which suggests ES also. I am not convinced CRC and SES are never used but ES does seem to be used.
His disconnections I expect to not cause DLM to react, I had during my fault 16 disconnections in one night and I stayed on fast path and I remember plusnet quoting something like 20 allowed which is quite generous.
On TBB someone mentioned 2880 ES per day.
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Do u think it will resync itself in the next days to a week to bring my FTTC back as it was. As I leave it alone for now. Let the DLM work it out.
No swapping routers unless you leave it for minimum of half hour between!
Yes it will resync itself - mine did at exactly 6am as you can see from the graph I posted earlier. It shouldnt take months - thats only if you have really been badly affected which you havent. No one knows for sure all I can say is that mine took about a week, Aardvarks took about 2 weeks.
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I am not sure why is DLM was target my line. I only swap three times yesterday but a month ago, my power was cut off five times in the space of an hour and didn't trigger DLM at all.
It could be total count of how many disconnected since February if it went pass over 20 times, then DLM could be trigger or could be too much errors from billion?
I dunno why?
I do wish Plusnet tell me what caused the DLM as they cannot find out what has caused this? No report from BT end to explain why it got interleaved on?
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Kitz - are you saying when switch off the VDSL2 modem off the main socket leave it off for 30 minutes plus the phone line too (leave it on the socket for 30 minutes) ? If both yes, then I must remember that next time.
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ok I now agree with kitz it wasnt due to ES, they were too low. I guess adslmax issues setting it up caused lots of failed connections which the dslam seen as disconnections, advice? when buying and configuring a new router, do the configuring before plugging in the dsl cable.
I ordered one now as I think billion do make quality products (used them when was on ukonline) and its not that expensive £60 on amazon.
However seems out of stock everywhere. Amazon estimate delivery between 1st and 4th week of october and I am hoping I can use bridge mode.
adslmax if this is the first time you interleaved and your line is stable I think DLM will recover within a week.
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chrys - he only had about 114 ES overnight and started panicking at about 8. Thats insufficient to trigger the DLM.
It only takes 1 CRC to trigger an ES, but I too doubt that they will use CRC or FEC. ES per set interval is far more likely than daily count as we know the DLM monitors in 15 min intervals. Sync count to trigger the DLM is supposedly 5th when on Stable or 10 for Standard 20 for Speed. I just wish BToR were more transparent about the DLM triggers.
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2 new replies whilst making this post and answering my phone but leaving post as was.
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Yes first time interleaved and first time DLM since my first ever FTTC went live last February. I am glad to hear that my line could be revert back to fast path in time within a week or 2 weeks.
Yes, it my fault setting up during DSL on live. I just wish set it up without DSL on. As kitz is right I was panic too much over Billion errors and worry about DLM. So, the DLM win I lose.
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I just wish BToR were more transparent about the DLM triggers.
Plusnet staff also saying this. But, the good news that plusnet are now working closer with BT to bring the new tool for plusnet to reset DLM in future but there is no date yet as BT still trial it.
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Kitz - are you saying when switch off the VDSL2 modem off the main socket leave it off for 30 minutes plus the phone line too (leave it on the socket for 30 minutes) ? If both yes, then I must remember that next time.
As Ive said in earlier posts but I'll repeat again in steps:-
1) Leave the modem cable plugged into the phone socket then switch off the modem/router by its power button. {this includes the BTOpenreach modem}
2) Wait a few seconds then you can remove modem cable
3) Wait at least 1/2 hr before plugging in new router - in particular plugging in the modem cable for the new router into the phone socket.
The DLM works in 15 min cycles so its got to see at least one full 15 min cycle without any connection - thats why we say 1/2 hr to ensure at least 1 x 15 mins is seen without any connection.
plus the phone line too
Not the PHONE LINE - the MODEM CABLE.. the one that goes from your router to the phone socket.
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3 - can it collect full stats via eric's or BE's tools?
Yes, you can see my stats from the 8800NL on MyDSLWebStats.
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1 - does this have the same new broadcom as the zyxel kitz highly rates?
2 - does it support bridge mode so I can use it like the hg612 as modem only?
3 - can it collect full stats via eric's or BE's tools?
on #2 I think it has briodge mdoem but ideally would like somene to confirm, quote from specs.
Bridged or routed Ethernet encapsulation
Just in case this gets missed.
1) Yes - but note Les-70's comments about the firmware and errors
2) Eric and Les have this router on their FTTC lines so they will be able to confirm 2)
3) I believe so.
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ETA another cross post - only with Eric this time :D
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I'm using the Billion in bridge mode atm. Good read about DLM so far, I'm also interested in resetting it at some point (even got interleaving on the downstream, don't need that).
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Kitz I want to be 100% certain, not confusion. My mate want to know this by asking u a question below:
I'm a little confused with steps 1-3. Could you clarify a bit more about router/modem. I have a new BILLION VDSL Modem/Router (all in one), thus negating the need for a router. Now, step 1 says, leave the modem cable plugged into socket, then switch off router (my NETGEAR router) by the power button. Then remove the modem (did you mean OPENREACH modem?), then wait 1/2 hr later, and then connect the BILLION modem/router in? Is that the correct sequence? Please advise.
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Yes if its a BTOpenreach modem that you are taking off. Whichever unit which the modem cable is plugged into. That could be a BTOpenreach modem.. or a VDSL combined modem/router. I'll clarify that post to also say BT OR modem/router.
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thanks guys for the replies.
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Kitz what does INP mean?
I can see some get INP 8.00, mine INP 3.00?
I just found it from zen tech guy posted below explaining of DLM:
DLM on FTTC is very similar to that of ADSL2+,
This includes impulse noise protection (INP), different levels of interleaving and banded profiles. What it does not have however, is the ability to change the target SNR to anything other than 6db.
The DLM system will drop sync and resync if needed.
Interleaving and INP are error correcting tools and can improve/reduce the max attainable rate or current sync rate, even if there is no banded profile applied.
These tools kick in to help clear errors.
The slightly increased ping responses and lower sync speed differences are negligible on fibre and should be taken as simply a fact of life rather than a detrimental factor.
Without them you may find a banded profile instead, and that does make a difference.
It does take an engineer or a call to BT to change a profile. You CANNOT opt out of Interleaving or INP on any line as you may have done on ADSL. That is purely DLM managed.
We would only send an engineer to confirm stability and reprofile if we know something has changed to clear an issue or full diagnostics completed. We can also only raise a performance related fault if the speed drops by 25% within 14 days.
DLM kicks in when the VDSL modem - either as part of a VDSL modem/router, or the Openreach supplied modem - loses 'Sync' to the DSLAM in the cabinet or has a large amount of data errors. This does not include auth or 'PPP' drops - i.e. rebooting separate router.
The DLM system is completely autonomous and banded profiles or interleaving/INP will be changed depending on the line stability and number of errors.The system CANNOT determine the difference between a reboot of the VDSL hardware, and a genuine drop due to a fault.
A good guide to the dropoff limit is approximately sync 10 drops a day for 3 days straight to initiate a profile change down. Going back up depends on seeing stability and reduced errors for a period of time, and there are no rules around this that I could explain. Basically 2-3 days of stability SHOULD (not Will) begin to make profile changes. If there is only a slight amount of banding this could take a lot longer to creep back up.
Sync can drop or errors can be caused:
Internally due to PSTN kit internally (phones,sky,alarm), Faulty wiring/faceplate (this includes the DSL filter fitted into fibre faceplates) and Faulty modem.
Externally could be the copper wire, or the DSLAM in the cab.
Any of these going faulty can cause Sync drops and therefore DLM could kick in. That is the reason for the basic internal diags needed for any intermittent or speed fault before we would even consider sending an engineer to check and reprofile the line.
DLM can apply any of the following:
Banded profiles - e.g. up to 80, up to 20, up to 5, up to 2. (many others but my typing fingers getting tired now)
Profiles with enhanced Impulse Noise Protection up to INP level 8
2 interleaving profiles
Independent DLM for upstream and downstream.
Hope this helps you understand the system.
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Yeah my INP was also set at 3 when I got interleaved.
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Plusnet just told me the reason of DLM taken place on my line because of too many PPP connection drops but I thought DLM not interesting if Plusnet PPP connection to different gateway change?
The DLM only interesting is the openreach modem (VDSL2 modem) stay active to the cabinet not the router ppp connection?
My connection just drop out last night after 12am because of plusnet profile change in my line from 77.4Mb to 70.6Mb.
My throughput speed drop from 74/18 to 67/17 and ping went up from 10ms to 25ms
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F3788714643.png&hash=3c6a7afd189a2c90b274b3df262bab843dd203f8) (http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3788714643)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Can I ask where the Connection logs are on the Plusnet site.
I have searched but cannot find it. ???
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Good grief. How many times have you contacted Plusnet about the DLM change. They cant do anything about it :(
PPP sessions shouldnt be noticed by the DLM.
There looks to be a total of 11 new sessions on that Wednesday... 5 of which with gaps that would indicate a resync, I cant say for the other 6 as they were too quick. Where you gateway hopping by trying to resync?
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Can I ask where the Connection logs are on the Plusnet site.
I have searched but cannot find it. ???
They arent... you have to pester one of the staff to get one.
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kitz - plusnet had a gateway problem last week on bng gateway. Sometimes the ping is higher on some gateway, that's why i change to different gateway to get lower ping. Plusnet told me to stop doing this as any PPP drop will trigger DLM even worse on the line.
I did request plusnet for a connection log plus GEA FTTC Test result too.
I think DLM hit because of me doing this:
Testing BT Home Hub 5 (VDSL2 Modem)
Testing Netgear DGND3700v1 (VDSL2 Modem)
Testing TP-Link TD-W9980 (VDSL2 Modem)
Testing Billion 8800NL (VDSL2 Modem)
Back to normal BT Openreach Modem (VDSL2 Modem)
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Can I ask where the Connection logs are on the Plusnet site.
I have searched but cannot find it. ???
They arent... you have to pester one of the staff to get one.
Thanks, that was not clear.
I thought I was missing something useful.
(I will NOT be pestering Plusnet to get one ;D)
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(I will NOT be pestering Plusnet to get one ;D)
You can ask plusnet staff for one copy sent to u of connection log plus GEA FTTC Test Result (it free of charge)
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The only time Ive ever got them was when I had a proper line fault... so the last time one was done on my line would have been over a year ago.
When I got hit by the DLM when testing the TP-link, I just thought 'grrrrr tough luck'. Theres nothing either I nor Plusnet can do about it so I just waited for it to go back to normal.
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I got hit by the DLM when testing the TP-link, I just thought 'grrrrr tough luck'. Theres nothing either I nor Plusnet can do about it so I just waited for it to go back to normal.
Bingo....I think it down to that TP Link put DLM on my line. Thanks Kitz. I am now on day 1 DLM. Another 13 more days to go (hopefully DLM removed) as long my line stay connection (PPP)
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kitz - plusnet had a gateway problem last week on bng gateway. Sometimes the ping is higher on some gateway, that's why i change to different gateway to get lower ping. Plusnet told me to stop doing this as any PPP drop will trigger DLM even worse on the line.
I did request plusnet for a connection log plus GEA FTTC Test result too.
I think DLM hit because of me doing this:
Testing BT Home Hub 5 (VDSL2 Modem)
Testing Netgear DGND3700v1 (VDSL2 Modem)
Testing TP-Link TD-W9980 (VDSL2 Modem)
Testing Billion 8800NL (VDSL2 Modem)
Back to normal BT Openreach Modem (VDSL2 Modem)
I know about the PPP issue on Monday.. Its the 11 new sessions on Wednesday I was on about. 5 looked to be a full resync but I couldnt tell for the others as they were too quick. How did you pipe hop? Did you specifically only change PPP session from within the router.. or did you do a full resync?
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I know about the PPP issue on Monday.. Its the 11 new sessions on Wednesday I was on about. 5 looked to be a full resync but I couldnt tell for the others as they were too quick. How did you pipe hop? Did you specifically only change PPP session from within the router.. or did you do a full resync?
I just do a quick reconnection to gateway using router PPP session soft disconnection. Not the VDSL2 Modem resync.
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I would be very interested in a reliable source for the statement that ppp disconnects are part of the DLM logic - as mentioned earlier, its completely the wrong layer for a 'line quality' assessment.
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Plusnet told me to stop doing this as any PPP drop will trigger DLM even worse on the line.
It will not. Whoever you were talking to at Plusnet was using her/his anal orifice rather than the conjunction of her/his brain & mouth. The Openreach DLM operates at the lower level (of synchronisation) between the CO and CPE (i.e. DSLAM and EU's modem) and not at the higher level of the PPPoE session!
If a member of Plusnet support staff still persists in disseminating that utter hogwash, please make a note of the persons name and report it back here. It could well be that you were talking to a new Plusnet employee who has not yet finished the training course.
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I had forgotten that I am out this evening so I have cut short the tests of the 8800NL with the original 038 dsldriver. The results obtained in about 21 hours are similar to those I obtained in early tests when I first had the 8800NL. in reply 104 above I noted that
The HG612 gave 10.5 errored sec/hour c.f. 15.5 with the 8800NL (with 039 dsl driver) -- and --For CRC and SES with difference is not just a factor of ~1.5 but a factor of ~4.
I now have 16.4 errored secs/hour with the 8800NL (with the 038 driver) i.e. basically the same as with the 039 driver . The CRC and SES are however much less than with the 039 driver and more like the HG612. In one 24 hour period this may be luck but it is consistent with past tests. The result with the 039 dsldriver for CRC and SES could equally be bad luck but again they like past tests. When I am really interested I usually like to do the 24 hours test alternately at least 5 times for each device.
As in the precious post 104 the abbreviated "info --stats" is attached
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Great news DLM had now been removed overnight. It's took me just 2 days from DLM to Non-DLM. So, I better be careful next time. My speed still 67 Meg as I can see Plusnet Profile still on old one 70.6 Mb as BTw profile report 77.4 Mb. I guess I have to wait for Plusnet profile to be updated.
Updated: Plusnet profile had been updated now match BT 77.4 Mb
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F3791053072.png&hash=b98731164a9250e43a4487b343b1f967c95c154c) (http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3791053072)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thinkbroadband.com%2Fspeedtest%2Fbutton%2F141181629024619428361-mini.png&hash=2fde0eaeb9fb6140fcdf0cc99713435dce744d57) (http://http:http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html?id=141181629024619428361)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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:)
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Thanks Kitz. From now must remember power down the vdsl2 modem for 30 minutes. Power down VDSL2 first then wait for few seconds, then unplugged modem cable. So, DLM won't be affected. Mine took just 2 days before DLM was removed. That's was quick.
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I will shortly be repeating my 8800NL tests to see if the results are the same on my second try but it will be harder to judge now as one of my cross talk sources that turns on and off from time to time seems to have ended a 3 week absence!! I attach a fairly recent plot of attainable speeds on my line starting when only about 2 other people had FTTC. It misses my initial attainable of 107. All stats are with the HG612 as when testing other devices I did not collect the data. It will probably give some insight into why I have been capping my speed, as without capping, rather than vary from 10 down to 7 my snrm might vary from 6 to 3. On many days the variation is a bit less but often at least 2db and sometimes 3db but the changes are not very predictable.
The new test will be done with a Mark 1 SSFP as I have ben testing SSFP's over the last few says and concluded that the Mark 1 or old NTE-2005 work best for me. These two SSFP's are esentially identical to a Mark 2 and Mark 3 IF the built in "RF3" type toroid of the Mark 2 and 3 is removed. I gain an extra ~1Mb/s with no extra errors and possibly one ot two less. (see the Kitz SSFP Mark3 thread for details)
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Thanks for the update les-70. Im interested in seeing your findings. Anything that can throw light on why some chipsets behave better on some lines for some and not on others would be interesting.. as would any observations regarding crosstalk.
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unfortunately I cannot test mine with billion 8800NL as it already gone back for a full refunded into my account today.
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I attach a fairly recent plot of attainable speeds on my line starting when only about 2 other people had FTTC. It misses my initial attainable of 107. All stats are with the HG612 as when testing other devices I did not collect the data. It will probably give some insight into why I have been capping my speed, as without capping, rather than vary from 10 down to 7 my snrm might vary from 6 to 3. On many days the variation is a bit less but often at least 2db and sometimes 3db but the changes are not very predictable.
Do any or all of those reductions in attainable rates tie in with actual sync speeds or are they purely due to reductions in SNRM?
If purely due to SNRM reductions, do they tie in with phone calls (incoming or outgoing)?
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They don't tie in with any fault condition and I am certain that it just varying cross talk with people turning modems on and off. Look at today's snrm. The attainable matches it.
Lately I tend to cap my sync a bit below the minimum that occurs every week or so. That way the connection remains stable and on fast path.
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I am certain that it just varying cross talk with people turning modems on and off
Thats the problem with fttc - we dont know if it is x-talk.. or not :( Once upon a time we would have said it was a small amount of REIN.
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There is only a quite small change in error rates associated with the SNRM changes that I see. The SNRM/per tone also changes smoothly across the tones as it does with cross talk. If it was REIN I would expect associated errors to be more significant and SRNM/tone to be ragged.
(Yesterday I accidentally left 3 fluorescent strip lights on the loft! They cause a marked increase in errors which had me really puzzled until in the evening when I noticed the indicator light that I put on the landing switch -in anticipation of such errors -- was glowing.)
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I am certain that it just varying cross talk with people turning modems on and off
Thats the problem with fttc - we dont know if it is x-talk.. or not :( Once upon a time we would have said it was a small amount of REIN.
indeed.
The way I try to diagnose is that if the drop in snr happens suddenly and during openreach working hours and especially if it appears permanent, its likely crosstalk, but of course cannot be 100% on it.
If its gradual and moves up and down, its probably something like RFI.
I think unless vectoring hardware is active in dslams, BT cannot know either, e.g. the GEA tester has a crosstalk detector but I think it wont be reliable.
A sudden loss of snr can also be down to a fault that starts, like joint becoming loose, corroded etc. Trying to diagnose remotely on the internet is only going to be guess work.
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Is it possible to make the 8800NL act like an unlocked HG612? That is can it handle a PPPoE connection and allow access to stats over a LAN port at the same time?
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Yes, it does this with the bridging mode, infact it only requires a single port for this, something I don't understand.
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A LAN(stats) and PPPoE bridge interface on one Ethernet port? I thought you needed something like VLANs and a managed switch to put two "interfaces" on one port? Anyone care to explain to me and JustAnother how that works? ???
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guys know anyone who has this in stock?
after trying the zyxel and having a taste of the better bcm chipset/driver I want this router which hopefully has a working bridge mode but noone has it in stock and am still waiting for amazon :(
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adslmax bought one last week.. but I dont know where he got it from.
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adslmax bought one last week.. but I dont know where he got it from.
broadbandbuyer (got it back to me because I have explained to broadbandbuyer that it wasn't Billion caused my DLM) got it back to me four days ago and now ongoing stable connection for 4 days now (no DLM)
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broadbandbuyer is out of stock sadly, and I guess if it shows up I might get max's returned one :)
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broadbandbuyer is out of stock sadly, and I guess if it shows up I might get max's returned one :)
Billion 8800NL are in stock now but seem more expensive at £70.62 excluding delivery charge which mean next business day delivery costs £6.60 inc VAT. They have 3 in stock at the moment. http://www.broadbandstuff.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=67sku=Billion_8800NL_Wireless-N_VDSL2%28Fibre%29/ADSL2+_Firewall_Router&products_id=3584
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A bit cheaper on Amazon but may not actually be in stock http://www.amazon.co.uk/Billion-8800NL-Gigabit-Wireless-Router/dp/B00K6D2ESM
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amazon is cheaper and out of stock which is where I ordered, since the zyxel is doing fine now I will wait for amazon.
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I have now repeated a 24 hour test 3 times for each of the 3 test cases. The tests are for an HG612 with the latest 038 firmware and the 8800NL with two firmwares, the shipped one with 038 dsl driver and the later one with the 039 dsl driver. (The 039 is the same as the one in the current ZyXel firmwares) i.e. 9 days of tests. All on fast path.
The results are
HG612 8800NL-038 8800Nl-039
ES/hour 9-12 14-17 15-19
CRC/day 1000-3000 1000-4000 7000-20000
SES/day 1-8 1-13 10-28
It would be easier to understand whether the differences matter if we knew what the DLM counted as errors. An important observation was that the for all three tests the ES/hour rates were very stable most of the day varying only by a factor of two between most hours but with an odd hour or two each day bigger.
The extra CRC and SES rates of the 8800NL and in particular the 039 firmware derive from a few minutes of time each day. It looks like the 63168 and 039 driver is simply worst at handling the odd nasty bits of noise on my line.
As I said I would love to know if these differences really matter and whether the DLM only really looks for the LOS and LOF errors that usually cause a resync. With my HG612 attainable at about 74-75Mb/s the 8800NL-38 always had an attainable about 2-3 Mb/s bigger and 8800NL-039 about 3-4 Mb/s bigger.
Stats edited on 5th Oct to reflect extra 8800NL-039 tests and historic data from HG612 and 8800Nl-039 with similar snrm
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les your graphs look all over the place O_o, snrm varying a lot.
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My graphs include all sorts of tests but see http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14030.msg270879#msg270879 My snrm is indeed "all over the place" It seems to have very little impact on my testing provide my speed is capped to be at or just below the minimum that occurs. e.g. currently 72 when the minimum attainable is 73. I tried not capping a couple of months ago but the DLM resynced me in the night to 80/20 and I did not like the error counts the next day when the attainable went to 73. I quickly went back to capping. I dare say the DLM would sort me out one way or another but I prefer my way!
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Here is mine:
HG612 8800NL-038
ES/hour 0.69 1.12
CRC/day ~67 ~227
SES/day 0 3
Maximum data rate: 35211 / 100874 on HG612
Maximum data rate: 37665 / 103336 on Billion 8800NL-038
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I thought you upgraded to the latest firmware. 038 is firmware the units ship with.. Do you have any results with the updated 039 dsl driver firmware versions? and over how long a period did you do a test for.
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No, the firmware 038 is better than 039 cos of more errors on the new firmware!
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Billion 8800NL are now back in stock http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/18474-billion-bipac-8800nl/
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at that price I will carry on waiting for amazon :)
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Your Amazon.co.uk order of "Billion BiPAC 8800NL..." has been dispatched
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The price go up now in Amazon cost £69.99
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Order Placed: 25 September 2014
Amazon.co.uk order number: XXXXXXXXXX Printable Order Summary | Print Invoice
Order Total: £59.16
Delivery #1: Dispatched on 9 October 2014
:)
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U lucky !
:P
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Got mine today - very stable it is - works like a goodun :)
One thing did tickle my curiosity , though
Infinity 1 connection i.e. Rate (Kbps) 39998(down) 10000(up)
| | Downstream | Upstream |
| Line Coding (Trellis) | On | On |
| SNR Margin (dB) | 24.9 | 21.6 |
| Attenuation (dB) | 16.5 | 0.0 |
| Output Power (dBm) | 12.4 | 6.4 |
| Attainable Rate (Kbps) | 94354 | 27193 |
I have no reason to believe that the stats are wrong, although I must admit my first thought was that the downstream and upstream snr figures are swapped around.
However, assuming that they are correct, then I have a better SNR on the downstream than on the upstream, despite the bitrate for downstream being 4x the upstream bitrate :o
The only possibility I can think of is that it's reporting that the downstream power is significantly higher than the upstream (which would help the SNR) but is that normal ?
This appears a little strange to me ... would welcome any thoughts on this ...
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Its hard to say for certain because youre not syncing at the lines full potential, but it looks about right to me.
SNRMargin is 'spare' and the upstream has less tones to load but more subject to Power cut back. Not to mention that upstream is lower frequencies so less attenuated.. so you can never compare upstream against the downstream.
Your upstream definitely looks about right if I compare it to mine when I first went live
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 35019 Kbps, Downstream rate = 107076 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 13.2 19.5
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 14.4 5.3
Upstream:
19.5dB spare SNRm gives me circa 15Mb more upstream..
which isnt that far out from 21.6dB giving you 17Mbps more upstream.
Next downstream -
I have 13.2dB spare - & 27Mbps to play with.
You have 25dB spare and 55 Mbps to play with - again not too far out.
Your power output may change if you went to 80/20 as more tones will be in use.
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Very interesting that yours shows the same - many thanks for that, & your explanation makes total sense.
It's curious, however, that my HH5 (afore I swapped it out for the Billion) showed the SNR in what I was assuming was the "right" way round (based on my previous logic)
6. Data rate: 10000 / 39993
7. Maximum data rate: 25974 / 86519
8. Noise margin: 23.1 / 20.9
9. Line attenuation: 0.0 / 16.9
10. Signal attenuation: 0.0 / 16.9
Namely, a lower SNR for the downstream as compared to the upstream.
I need a calibrated test set to satisfy my curiosity - unfortunately, I don't have one of those :)
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Hmmm strange - not sure...
But some of the increase from 20.9 to 24.9 on the Downstream SNRm will likely be something to do with the increased performance of the BCM 63168 chipset.
The vast majority of people with a BCM 63168 chipset router have seen increases to both the downstream SNRm and the max headline.
I dont have the same routers as you but I do have a VMG8324 which has the same BCM63268 chipset as the billion and I have a TD-W9980 which has the same Lantiq chipset as the HH5
The BCM63168 gives me an extra couple of dB on my downstream SNRm and a good 6-7Mbps more sync speed... not sure about the upstream though.. Id need to go digging through a pile of stats.
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Think my snr question is best left to the IDK category ;D (so as not to pull this thread off into the wilderness with my ramblings .. However, I wish I had the brain cells to screenshot a couple of stats pages from the Asus whilst I had it - would have been interesting - oh well ...)
Anyways, after 24hrs, 2 power cuts (one right in the middle of me configuring it - lol), it's stability is very good.
No issues at all with it (aside from I wish it was Black >:D)
It seems to like my line (8 hours uptime after latest power blip)
CRC: 65(down) 10(up)
ES: 29 (down) 9(up)
and the design has obviously been well thought through by Billion (nice air flow to keep it pretty cool)
Another happy bunny here.
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ok now trying this unit.
my device defaults to 39 not 38 driver, I am still very curious how these new devices work with 38 driver but cannot find firmware with them on, currently am testing the billion with A2pv6F039g1.d24m which I think is a bit older than what was in the zyxel.
The billion syncs at the same speed as my hg612 2mbit below the zyxel. But reports a higher attainable speed.
With bridge mode I get the same issues as I had on the zyxel if trying to use gui at same time, but so far cannot find an obvious setting to fix it.
--edit-- fixed now is same setting as zyxel although is an extra option to enable groups isolation, I left it unticked and seems isnt needed.
By the way I left the enable US0 box unticked to try and force that to be used as extra DS bandwidth, but seems the dslam overidden me :(
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The 038 firmware is available on the Billion forum. I am surprised at your lack of sync gain. My line looks similar to yours in characteristics but on it the Billion with 039 syncs are much the same as Zyxel at about 3.5Mb/s gain in sync but about 4.5 Mb/s gain in attainable. The actual gains seem to vary, perhaps depending on the time of day but not by more than about 1Mb/s.
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Which firmware are the best 039 or 038?
And I forget the setting for VDSL2?
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The 038 firmware is available on the Billion forum. I am surprised at your lack of sync gain. My line looks similar to yours in characteristics but on it the Billion with 039 syncs are much the same as Zyxel at about 3.5Mb/s gain in sync but about 4.5 Mb/s gain in attainable. The actual gains seem to vary, perhaps depending on the time of day but not by more than about 1Mb/s.
please provide exact firmware version numbers so its not confusing.
at the moment I cannot access their forum, seems need to be registered.
and there is it seems multiple 39 driver versions, the 39 on my billion is older than the 39 on the kl6 zyxel. So please specify the exact 39 driver version thank you.
I have seen 39g 39h and 39i.
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I grabbed the dsl driver 38 firmware but is there one with 39i on it?
By the way when I capped my sync to 72 on the zyxel the DS snrm was similiar to what is now on the billion, so far I noticed the zyxel gets its gain from lowering the snrm at sync time.
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The firmware with 039 is on the normal Billion support downloads web site. I think it is 39g but I am not running the Billion today and was in any case using the 038 which gave me increases in sync of about 1Mb/s less than the 039. Although the ES rates with the 038 and 039 were the about same on my line the 038 CRC and SES rates were much smaller than the 039. Whether that matters is debatable but I go for the least errors, which ever sort.
PS Unless your in the "North" this week has been bad for testing with lightning about most days.
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the driver on the billion website is now what ships with the device, my device came with 39g.
the zyxel has 39i.
so is no billion firmware with 39i?
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I guess not, but in any case I did not notice any sync performance difference between the XyXel and the Billion 039. Years ago I happened to buy 4 DG834g v4's on ebay -as cheap as one!. The differences between them surprised me, about 1.7Mb/s between the best and worst in sync rate, but 3 were within 0.7Mb/s. I used the best (which to my annoyance had a ghastly yellow discoloration). I have since wondered how much of this varying hardware effect in involved in differing opinions about things.
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can anyone using this with BE's tools make snapshot graphs ok?
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I am now connected to Billion 8800NL as the modem firmware was A2pv6F039g1.d24m and stats so far:
Since Link time = 2 hours 00 min 19 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 11.9 16.4
Attenuation (dB) 11.5 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.4 -0.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 100956 35742
Rate (Kbps) 79987 19999
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 239 237
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 23 42
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 0 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0955 0.3781
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 20104 5374
D (interleaver depth) 1 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 240 127
N (RS codeword size) 240 254
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 0.00 0.00
OH Frames 0 0
OH Frame Errors 0 0
RS Words 0 3286433
RS Correctable Errors 0 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 1171809471 0
Data Cells 21305741 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 0 0
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 26 26
@ kitz - I did leave powered down for an hour before setting up Billion 8800NL (without VDSL cable online) and then power up with vdsl2 online to make sure DLM isn't affect next day.
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@Chrysalis I will try dynamically swapping the 039g dsl driver with the 039i from the Zyxel some time next week.
When I had the Zyxel I tried to dynamically swap the dsl driver back to a 038 driver from earlier Zyxel firmware (the earlier firmware was one that would not sync at all). That swap failed totally as the command "adsl stop" caused a complete lockup of the Xyxel followed after a minute by an automatic reboot. That command is the first step in dsl swapping! I have yet to try the same with a Billion. It might also work in later Xyxel firmwares. I therefore don't know if this was Xyxel firmware specific or something more general with 63168's. To test, when off line, you can simply see what happens with adsl stop and start --up commands. They probably work if you get as far as then entering "adsl start --up" and the device not rebooting.
I would not complain about the Billion firmware not quite having the latest driver. Billion do at least make updates easily available without having to contact them and the Billion firmware, unlike the Xyxel firmwares, seem properly tested.
Edit looks like dsl driver swapping is not straight forwards with these two 63168 devices. The Billion also locks up with adsl stop!
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how are you swapping the drivers?
to use 38 on a zyxel seems to need a very old firmware which has bugs. But regardless on my line 39g behaves like 38, I have similar ES and similar sync, the only difference is an over estimated attainable.
My early days on this pair with only 150 CRC a day I think are gone, something has happened since then that has degraded the line or a new source of interference has appeared.
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My Billion 8800NL from Amazon is much better than broadbandbuyer as so far no error! Amazon come with the latest firmware already on it.
Since Link time = 4 hours 54 min 19 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
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although I didnt notice it when downloading my tbb graph is cleaner on the billion, no red specks which was a numerous amount with the zyxel.
just under 300 ES for the day vs 800 on the zyxel.
interesting as well very little yellow on tbb as well, probably the best I ever seen on my plusnet, and speedtest completely flat on tbb.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thinkbroadband.com%2Fspeedtest%2Fbutton%2F141305513251906345096.png&hash=5f56d50eb4c1a66e4ce93cf9c1e755702aaaacec) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html?id=141305513251906345096)
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how are you swapping the drivers?
I believe Les is making use of a variation of the technique that Asbokid detailed in a post (http://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/dynamically-swapping-out-the-hardware-driver-blob/) to his blog, dated November 11th 2012. :)
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B'cat is correct in giving my aim but as noted in my last post above it can't be done that way. The key initial command to first stop the dsl driver fails and locks up both the xyxel and the billion so swapping is no go for me at the moment.
@Chrysalis
Your Billion with the 039 seems to doing better than mine re errors. I wonder if there have been any hardware revisions.
If I track mine with 039 all is fine except for the few minutes a day when I get an error burst and the CRC and SES go very high . The ES are not too bad though. If I did not have those events I would have no complaints at all re 039.
I found the Billion 038 firmware reduced these extra CRC and SES back to near normal but the sync speed up was bit less. Still a couple Mb/s more than HG612 though. It gave me just a moderate increase in ES c.f the HG612. The difference needed a few alternating days with each device to reliably measure. All on weekdays and all without lightning within 150 miles. Lightning really hits me hard when I am running the Billion 039 firmware, it is those sort events that don't seem to suit it.
I recommend that you try the 038 software, it is identical apart from the dsl driver change, and you may do better still with errors. When I asked Billion advised me that some lines seem to prefer the 038, hence them making it available.
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Well les, after I resynced my 8800nl yesterday its got a sync about 1.5mbit higher than the hg612 would be expected to get I think 0.5 is due to the change to the MK1 so lets call it 1mbit and the ES is still much more respectable than the zyxel.
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Interesting. I wonder whether it is hardware or dsl driver changes that make these differences. Both I guess. Are you on the 038 or 039 firmware? The 038 did not give me quite as big a sync increase but did give better errors than the 039.
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remember the billion has 39g and zyxel 39i.
my billion is still on the shipped firmware which has 39g.
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If you change to 038 you will most probably get even less errors. especially CRC and SES. The 038 firmware is just the same apart from the dsl driver.
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I am happy with my current ES count tho, 39i was I think a bit too high but 39g seems fine for my line.
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After 25 days of uptime with no alarms, my 8800NL locked up yesterday evening. I could continue using the internet normally, but both the GUI and the telnet interfaces became totally unresponsive. I noticed what had happened after about an hour and rebooted the 8800NL, and it returned to normal operation with the same performance as before the event.
The firmware is the latest from Billion, version 2.32d.dh14. I don't know if this was a one-off glitch - the device doesn't overheat, and there were no warning signs in the stats. So I'm not going to do anything about it, just wait and see.
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My Billion 8800NL uptime now 10 days. Can still access GUI and telnet interfaces.
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I installed my Billion 8800NL last night and it has not gone as well as I would like, the rate has been dropping.
Below are my stats, is there anything of concern? I down graded this morning to version 2.32d.dm2
Should I revert to an Openreach Modem, I have both the ECI and the HG612
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 25159 Kbps, Downstream rate = 72608 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 73298 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.1 15.1
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.5 6.6
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 239 237
M: 1 1
T: 22 42
R: 0 16
S: 0.1042 0.3781
L: 18424 5374
D: 1 1
I: 240 127
N: 240 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 5388094 2343565
OHFErr: 107 11
RS: 0 3896951
RSCorr: 0 48
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 222 0
OCD: 1 0
LCD: 1 0
Total Cells: 1311047388 0
Data Cells: 955863 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
AS: 9303
Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 1.72 3.98
OR: 111.22 64.22
AgR: 73409.24 20063.54
Bitswap: 909/909 9/9
Total time = 2 hours 35 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 48
CRC: 107 11
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 5 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 14 0
ES: 2 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 7
CRC: 3 5
ES: 3 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 2 hours 35 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 48
CRC: 107 11
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 2 hours 35 min 1 sec
FEC: 0 48
CRC: 107 11
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
>
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There's nothing strange in those stats, and it's hard to tell if changing to a different modem would improve the result. Perhaps the falling speed is the result of crosstalk.
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There's nothing strange in those stats, and it's hard to tell if changing to a different modem would improve the result. Perhaps the falling speed is the result of crosstalk.
Thanks
I is difficult without a reference source it is the high number of ES that concerns me
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.1 15.1
Attenuation (dB) 0.0 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.5 6.6
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 72608 25187
Rate (Kbps) 73298 19999
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 239 237
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 22 42
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 0 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.1042 0.3781
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 18424 5374
D (interleaver depth) 1 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 240 127
N (RS codeword size) 240 254
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 0.00 0.00
OH Frames 0 0
OH Frame Errors 131 12
RS Words 0 24423
RS Correctable Errors 0 58
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 277 0
OCD Errors 1 0
LCD Errors 1 0
Total Cells 1774234428 0
Data Cells 10521159 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 46 8
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 26 26
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The total number of ES doesn't mean anything without a time frame, but from your previous posting you had 27 downstream ES in 2 hours 35 minutes, which is about 10.5 per hour. This isn't enough to be of any direct concern, unless the rate increases later.
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The total number of ES doesn't mean anything without a time frame, but from your previous posting you had 27 downstream ES in 2 hours 35 minutes, which is about 10.5 per hour. This isn't enough to be of any direct concern, unless the rate increases later.
Do you have a 'rule of thumb' as to how many would be a concern?
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Roseway may/probably-will know more but connections with an average of about 30/hour or less and odd peaks at ~60/hour seem to stay on fast path. Some say it can be as high as 60 or 120 /hour.
I would be cautious if the average is over 30/hour and concerned if is it over 60/hour.
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If Zen's documentation on FTTC DLM is actually correct, they state:
- Speed Profile: A connection should drop no more than 20 times in a 24 hour period, and should error no more than 2 times per minute.
- Standard Profile: Allowing no more than 10 drops in a 24 hour period and no more than 1 error every minute.
- Stable Profile: Allowing no more than 5 drops in a 24 hour period and no more than 1 error every 2 minutes.
Source: http://support.zen.co.uk/kb/Knowledgebase/Fibre-Optic-Broadband-FTTC-What-is-DLM-and-how-does-it-work
So far I believe I breached the 20 re-syncs threshold, or at least came very close to it yesterday due to the buggy firmware on my ASUS, and this caused a speed banding from 74/20 to 49/15 (dropped by two bands?). No error correction (e.g. INP, delay) was applied however, which makes me wonder if DLM only applies error correction if the MTBE threshold is breached, which based on my regular observations yesterday I would say it wasn't breached (MTBE).
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I was very surprise as BT Wholesale had updated FTTC 80/20 last february 2014 and now today addition FTTPoD 330/30 (available now)
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on sunday I had none of the bursts of errors which appear to come from some form of external interference,e I suspect is some kind of building/road works, as a main road not far from me they doing roadworks, and also the dentist across the road are doing massive work, they even turning some grass into a car park.
So here is what my line would look like on the 8800nl without these bursts for a day.
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My Billion 8800NL ongoing 10 days so far:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Could I please as an 8800NL owner whether the WPA encryption settings have an option of TKIP only?
Looking in the manual, I can only see AES or TKIP+AES.
We have a couple of Samsung devices that play up if they get a whiff of AES.
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I will check that up for u. Bear with me.
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It got two options: AES and TKIP+AES on the wifi security.
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Thanks for taking the time to check that out for me. :thumbs:
Not sure if the TKIP+AES setting will an issue or not, so will go do some research!
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Received my device today, up and running in a couple of minutes, what an absolute delight this is to use!
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My Billion 8800NL is now stable for 39 days ongoing with no DLM trigger so far. Quite happy overall with it. It's nice to have it on it own without the need of Openreach Modem.
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This router isn't working out too well for me. I'm getting lower speeds than with the HG612. Attainable Rate (Kbps) says 30665, but my actual sync "Rate (Kbps)" is 20000. Attenuation (dB) is 25.0 and SNR Margin (dB) 9.6. At least for a few days after fitting the router I was getting ~27000 so not sure why it's decided to sync so low now. I've had no issues with disconnects.
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It is unusual to see a snrm of 9.5 on FTTC. I would would resync to see if it goes back to ~6. It is however possible that you have large cross talk that comes and goes. If you find that it reconnects at ~6 but later reverts to 9.5 again it probably means the connection dropped with the extra cross talk and it may be best to leave it, as the 9.5 may dropping to 6 from time to time -- that is better than 6 becoming 3 from time to time.
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My FTTC used to start off 15dB on downstream SNR last Feb 2014 but it now steady hold on 9dB SNR. Probably will go down around 6dB next year. Who know due to crosstalk.
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It is unusual to see a snrm of 9.5 on FTTC. I would would resync to see if it goes back to ~6. It is however possible that you have large cross talk that comes and goes. If you find that it reconnects at ~6 but later reverts to 9.5 again it probably means the connection dropped with the extra cross talk and it may be best to leave it, as the 9.5 may dropping to 6 from time to time -- that is better than 6 becoming 3 from time to time.
If the connection is running below 80/20 then ~6 is the norm at sync on Openreach FTTC.
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I am struggle with billion wireless setting.
My wifi network card support 450Mbps dual band. But, Billion if it was 20Mhz on bandwidth it will getting only 20Mbps speed (link speed was 150Mbps). If it was 20Mhz/40Mhz it only getting 40Mbps speed (link speed was 300Mbps). I did test it on Netgear DGND3700v2 wireless as it did 74Mbps speed with link speed of 300Mbps).
Why Billion 8800NL Wireless cannot getting more than 40Mbps? Does anyone find a way to get 74Mbps speed on Billion wireless setting?
Netgear wifi : http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3963662816
Billion wifi : http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3963665402
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I have no trouble getting 70Mb/s throughput with a 8800NL at shortish ranges. Wireless has so many variables - different adapters different locations different aerial orientations that it is often hard to evaluate. Start by testing 1m away from it. If it still only 40 it probably does not match well with the device it is connecting to.
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@ les-70 - What setting are u using see my screenshot uppear. Are my setting the same as your?
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I don't have access at the moment but from memory that screen is all set at its defaults with the exception that I manually choose channel 6 as I know that is optimum in my location. i.e. away from neighbors frequencies.
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Strange I try Asus USB N10 150Mbps and try Billion wifi again and got better speedtest now:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F3964933972.png&hash=e59b929408b1a4033de88ff2314f409070c3c17b) (http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3964933972)
I think the TP link 450Mbps on PCI in something wrong with it (limit speed of no more 40Mbps) how odd?
Thanks les-70
I use Asus USB N10 wireless for now.
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It's such a simple query to show my ignorance! ;D
But when configuring the system log what are the server details to input? :-[
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It's such a simple query to show my ignorance! ;D
But when configuring the system log what are the server details to input? :-[
none, those details are if you use a remote syslog server, which I very much doubt you do. You need to enable local syslog, not remote.
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Analysis correct! Thank you! :) Behind it all is that last evening and this morning, after I had started everything up on return from a 5 day break at my daughter's, there were several incidences of the screen blacking out, and extremely difficult to recover through router and all connections looking ok. Final failure had me ensuring ALL were so, and it was the monitor power cable which seemed OK until I yanked it out and shoved it back in.
I thought that the syslog should have contained something of what had gone on :-\
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I have just purchased an 8800NL to use in place of my HG612B and I am getting no improvement in synch speed - in fact approx 1mb slower which is disappointing.
I`m sure I have it set up correctly so perhaps I `ve just been unlucky.
Would you be prepared to either post or email to me a copy of the 038 DSL driver to try, as possibly my line does not like the 039g version.
I originally synched at 80/20 on initial install with a DS margin of 12.5dB, but now I `m down to 66/20 after crosstalk hit me with a standard DS margon of 6.1dB.
Many thanks!!
I installed my Billion 8800NL last night and it has not gone as well as I would like, the rate has been dropping.
Below are my stats, is there anything of concern? I down graded this morning to version 2.32d.dm2
Should I revert to an Openreach Modem, I have both the ECI and the HG612
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 25159 Kbps, Downstream rate = 72608 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 73298 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.1 15.1
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.5 6.6
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 239 237
M: 1 1
T: 22 42
R: 0 16
S: 0.1042 0.3781
L: 18424 5374
D: 1 1
I: 240 127
N: 240 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 5388094 2343565
OHFErr: 107 11
RS: 0 3896951
RSCorr: 0 48
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 222 0
OCD: 1 0
LCD: 1 0
Total Cells: 1311047388 0
Data Cells: 955863 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
AS: 9303
Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 1.72 3.98
OR: 111.22 64.22
AgR: 73409.24 20063.54
Bitswap: 909/909 9/9
Total time = 2 hours 35 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 48
CRC: 107 11
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 5 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 14 0
ES: 2 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 7
CRC: 3 5
ES: 3 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 2 hours 35 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 48
CRC: 107 11
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 2 hours 35 min 1 sec
FEC: 0 48
CRC: 107 11
ES: 27 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
>
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did you check your stats right before turning off the hg612? specifically was its attainable higher than synce speed and snrm over 6db?
If yes then I guess the billion for your line conditions isnt as good, but yes the older firmware may help you.
the download link is on their forums.
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did you check your stats right before turning off the hg612? specifically was its attainable higher than synce speed and snrm over 6db?
If yes then I guess the billion for your line conditions isnt as good, but yes the older firmware may help you.
the download link is on their forums.
Thanks, but the forum won`t send me the post registration email so I can`t log-on as a new member and hence cannot access the firmware file.
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And you moaning about 1Mb lower as 1Mb is nothing worse to be honest! Just be happy with your Billion 8800NL. It's still the great broadcom chipset.
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;D
And you moaning about 1Mb lower as 1Mb is nothing worse to be honest! Just be happy with your Billion 8800NL. It's still the great broadcom chipset.
Hi there `max`
Don`t get me wrong - I `m not moaning. I agree it`s a great router with lots of fantastic features.
Ever since being hit by crosstalk I `ve been trying to squeeze every ounce of speed from my connection.
Just a little bit puzzled why I `m not seeing the increase in synch that is widely reported here.
General question about the 8800NL: does it definitely support `g-vectoring` out of the box?
I hear from some quarters that it DOES but can see no mention of vectoring support in the product`s specification list.
Will it need a future firmware upgrade? Perhaps you or Kitz could confirm?
Many thanks!!
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I also did not notice VDSL2 G.vector (G.993.5) in the spec but they replied to a query.
"I have forwarded your feature request over to our engineers.
Regarding vectoring, the 8800NL already supports vectoring.
Thanks
Best Regards,
Billion Support Team"
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its not visible in the telnet commands or spec sheets, but my guess is if a new firmware is required billion will make it, they are good at supporting products.
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The 8800nl does not support G.Vectoring ( G.993.5) according to the compliance list, unless it's just not enabled in the current firmware
Full-rate ANSI T1.413 Issue 2
G.993.2 (VDSL2, supporting profile 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 12a, 12b, 17a)
G.992.1 (G.dmt)
G.992.2 (G.lite)
G.992.3 (G.dmt.bis)
G.992.3 Annex M (ADSL2 Annex M)
G.992.4 (G.lite.bis)
G.992.5 (G.dmt.bis plus)
G.992.5 Annex M (ADSL2+ Annex M)
G.994.1 (G.hs)
VDSL2 band plan: 997 and 998
I was told that BT are currently using the device in tests but wouldn't confirm if that included vectoring support.
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Billion 8800NL does support vectoring! Even thought it doesn't add on their site. The techinical support from billion say that 8800NL is vectoring support ready.
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Billion UK Support
10:57 (7 hours ago)
to me
Hi ****,
8800NL do support vectoring but we are not aware of vectoring being officially supported by ISP right now.
Best Regards,
Billion Support Team
http://www.billion.uk.com/esupport
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Can someone have a look at my stats and tell me if I have anything to worry about, up time is 24 hrs
Status
xDSL
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.3 9.4
Attenuation (dB) 16.8 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 13.4 6.0
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 90865 25706
Rate (Kbps) 75411 20000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 51 236
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 64 5
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0219 0.3771
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 23336 5410
D (interleaver depth) 1475 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 64 255
N (RS codeword size) 64 255
Delay (msec) 8 0
INP (DMT symbol) 3.00 0.00
OH Frames 56738197 12957082
OH Frame Errors 103 2
RS Words 1639896656 2389635
RS Correctable Errors 508614 96
RS Uncorrectable Errors 11315 0
HEC Errors 2973 0
OCD Errors 2 0
LCD Errors 2 0
Total Cells 3009094680 0
Data Cells 799597784 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 15 2
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 27 27
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Your sync rate reduced caused by DLM interleaved ON INP 3.00 (Leave it on for at least 2 weeks) the DLM should removed interleaved and put your back on 79.9Mbps as long the line is stable with less errors.
Here is mine below (ongoing for 57D 17H 57M 0S):
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 8.9 14.7
Attenuation (dB) 11.3 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.4 -1.2
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 90222 32146
Rate (Kbps) 79987 19999
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 239 237
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 23 42
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 0 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0955 0.3781
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 20104 5374
D (interleaver depth) 1 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 240 127
N (RS codeword size) 240 254
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 0.00 0.00
OH Frames 0 0
OH Frame Errors 7776 7929
RS Words 0 4291836
RS Correctable Errors 0 111077
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 26614 0
OCD Errors 190 0
LCD Errors 190 0
Total Cells 2837270794 0
Data Cells 3573968332 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 4481 2270
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 27 27
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Your sync rate reduced caused by DLM interleaved ON INP 3.00 (Leave it on for at least 2 weeks) the DLM should removed interleaved and put your back on 79.9Mbps as long the line is stable with less errors.
My sync has been between 74-75mb for months, I have wanted interleaving to switch off for ages
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Mine was hit by DLM last year with interleaved ON at INP 3.00 and 2 days later it removed itself! (it was my own fault of swapping over four different modems in the space of 30 minutes) but since then, never get DLM again.
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Mine was hit by DLM last year with interleaved ON at INP 3.00 and 2 days later it removed itself! (it was my own fault of swapping over four different modems in the space of 30 minutes) but since then, never get DLM again.
Think I might as sky to request a DLM reset
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No, u can't! as all isp's cannot reset DLM (FTTC only) as it ran by BT Openreach, not BTw (as BTw can reset DLM on ADSL2+ by the isp's)
The only way to get DLM reset is sent out engineer as a fault as sometime openreach engineer do reset it at the FTTC cabinet but mostly they don't.
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No, u can't! as all isp's cannot reset DLM (FTTC only) as it ran by BT Openreach, not BTw (as BTw can reset DLM on ADSL2+ by the isp's)
The only way to get DLM reset is sent out engineer as a fault as sometime openreach engineer do reset it at the FTTC cabinet but mostly they don't.
Great :no: looks like I'm on interleaved for the rest of time
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How do I see what items are connected to the router and is there a way I can limit that item to what time I want it to use the Internet ie I daughters laptop?
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how do I find out CRC errors? all I have on mine are HEC Errors, OCD Errors and LCD Errors
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These are the same as CRC errors:-
OH Frame Errors 7776 7929
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The stats on billion 8800NL are:
Total ES -> Error seconds (total)
OH Frame Errors -> CRC errors (total)
HEC Errors -> HEC errors (total)
RS Correctable Errors -> FEC errors (total)
Below is my Billion 8800NL full stats (ongoing sync between VDSL modem and VDSL cabinet for 60 days):
http://postimg.org/image/oi5tu8j6r/full/
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Hi, First post on here so hello all :)
OK, so fibre has arrived after the 3 year wait!, install is due on the 9th of this month (750m to cab).
Am I best to leave the BT modem + router for the first 10days?, or straight in with the billion 8800nl.
Think I have a good quiet line, on adsl I have held a 3dB download signal to noise ratio profile for the last 5 years
and could just hold a 4.5-5mb connection on a 4.2k line from my exchange.
Let the light speed internet begin ;)
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Hi and welcome :)
With VDSL2 there's no significance to the first 10 days, so you can do what you want. In my case I chose to use the 8800NL right from the start, as I didn't want the ECI modem which the installer had with him. That's probably not the best idea - I suggest that you let the installer get the connection working with the standard modem + router so you have one known functional setup, and swap over later if you want to.
Don't swap too often, and when you do it's best to leave a half-hour-plus gap between switching off one modem and switching on the other. This ensures that DLM doesn't count it as a resync.
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Don't swap too often, and when you do it's best to leave a half-hour-plus gap between switching off one modem and switching on the other. This ensures that DLM doesn't count it as a resync.
^^ This have caused me DLM when I swapped over from modem to Billion as I didn't aware of first 30 minutes to avoid any DLM trigger. So, Roseway is correct there.
On your day of installation, let the engineer set up with ECI Openreach Modem plus your router and when the engineer have left. You can switch off for at least 30 minutes then put Billion 8800NL as it far better than the two devices.
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Cheers for the replies/info you two.
Am I right in thinking no DLM will hit till at least the day after the install, so safe to swap to the Billion later on the install day.
Gone with PN 40/20 (new 2704m router has arrived)
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I think DLM will start after 24 hours on first day of installation.
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Cheers for the replies/info you two.
Am I right in thinking no DLM will hit till at least the day after the install, so safe to swap to the Billion later on the install day.
Gone with PN 40/20 (new 2704m router has arrived)
DLM monitors the line for 48 hours I believe unless there's severe instability where it would take action sooner :)
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Just for info, Billion 8800NL PCB layout.
Click for full size. (phone pic so not the best)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi153.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs223%2Fxup11%2FMobius1%2Fth_Billion8800pcb_zpsbe198614.jpg&hash=8510fd560c41ab2b6fa9d40c8cc0189588562c7f) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/xup11/media/Mobius1/Billion8800pcb_zpsbe198614.jpg.html)
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Interesting to see. Thank you for posting the image.
Now I wonder what could be the purpose of the header-less double row of pads, at 11 o'clock to the processor's heat-sink? UART, JTAG or both? :-\
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I wonder if its the same PCB as the 8800 NXL will just components not installed ?...cant really see why there are 7 antenna take off's on the board unless its used for another model (with 5gHz).
Need to see the NXL PCB really, opened it up to add another antenna pigtail so I could add one of my own antennas, but now have no idea if the free ones are in use on the board :(.
6 days to light-speed internet ;)
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Quick question , I'm on sky broadband and am considering changing to this router/modem. What's the WiFi signal like on this, I'm coming from the supplied Sky Sr102, so any comparison with that is appreciated. Cheers
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@burakkucat i was thinking the same when i was looking at that picture.
How ever J8 looks to be a TTL Serial connection which already has a pin header on it which is just from the low part of the Heatsink to the right.
Double pins looks to be a UART port but don't quote me on that one. It also states U10 which could mean UART.
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Thanks for pointing out the single row of header pins (at approximately 5 o'clock to the heat-sink). :)
My feeling is the above mentioned row of header pins will probably be a serial access port and the unpopulated set of double pads will be for JTAG access.
Perhaps someone owning one of those modem/routers and an o'silly-scope could check, please, and satisfy the curiosity of a grumpy old kitteh!
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Hi, I've just bought a Billion 8800NL and so far very happy with it. Before I had a Netgear DG834G which gave me just over 17000Kbps with 21ms ping, now i'm connected at 21451Kbps with 17ms ping :thumbs:.
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^^ DO NOT USE THE LATEST FIRMWARE! (IT'S STILL ONGOING ISSUES) as the Firmware deleted for now while they investigate authentication issues.
Use this firmware instead here: http://www.billion.uk.com/esupport/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/362/107/bipac-8800nl-232ddh14-firmware
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which firmware deleted? I didnt even know was a newer one.
http://www.billion.uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3503
interesting, I bet this adds vectoring.
Shame its offline.
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No, the Billion 8800NL already got vectoring support. This new firmware got nothing to do with add on vectoring.
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then what is this?
"This firmware might not increase your sync rate, but should be more compatible with newer exchanges"
The vectoring code is not listed in telnet as a supported mode.
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I think it added Profile 30a (not sure)
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Anyone got any advice, I have this setup in Bridge mode and working fine, however, I cannot access the stats at all?
WAN on my router is connected to LAN1 on the Billion. Only way to get stats is to connect LAN2 to a lan port on the router? However doing this stalls the internet after a while?
Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated?
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you need to isolate the wan traffic. Most of the discussion on this was in the zyxel thread but similar configuration is done on the billion.
so login to the gui.
On left expand configuration.
Click on LAN.
Click on interface grouping.
You will see a default group with all LAN ports assigned.
Click on add.
Type a name I called it "Bridge"
Now the next bit I am trying to remember correct as I cannot do it now to test what I am saying.
In wan interfaces press the left arrow to move the wan interface to grouped wan interfaces.
In lan interface move the correct port to the grouped box, in my case its P4.
I dont know if the top box for isolation needs ticking, I ticked it.
Then click apply.
All should work properly after this, providing you using the right lan port that you grouped.
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you need to isolate the wan traffic. Most of the discussion on this was in the zyxel thread but similar configuration is done on the billion.
so login to the gui.
On left expand configuration.
Click on LAN.
Click on interface grouping.
You will see a default group with all LAN ports assigned.
Click on add.
Type a name I called it "Bridge"
Now the next bit I am trying to remember correct as I cannot do it now to test what I am saying.
In wan interfaces press the left arrow to move the wan interface to grouped wan interfaces.
In lan interface move the correct port to the grouped box, in my case its P4.
I dont know if the top box for isolation needs ticking, I ticked it.
Then click apply.
All should work properly after this, providing you using the right lan port that you grouped.
Thanks for this, I think I have the right settings. Attached below.
WAN cable in Port4 and then another cable in port 2 for getting the stats.
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looks good.
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looks good.
After doing this it worked for a while and then hung again. Shall drop Billion an email, back on the HG612 now. Getting the same sync speed with that now so may not even bother keeping the Billion.
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something like this may work http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=74960&postcount=9 (http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=74960&postcount=9)
Ian
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something like this may work http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=74960&postcount=9 (http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=74960&postcount=9)
Ian
that is to allow accessing the lan over the wan cable. Even better than the way he tried so yeah he can try it.
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Is there a good reason why you can't just use the 8800NL as intended - a modem and router? The 8800NL copes well with full loading.
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Is there a good reason why you can't just use the 8800NL as intended - a modem and router? The 8800NL copes well with full loading.
I'm interested in the answer to this question, as I intend to use a 8800NL as a modem and router (no clients), together with a Draytek 2830 (all clients) when I get my FTTC enabled in two days time. (My master socket is in the attic, where I will put the 8800, and continue with the Draytek for WiFi etc.) Why use PPPoE Bridged mode, when I can simply route between the draytek and the 8800NL?
Thanks
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Is there a good reason why you can't just use the 8800NL as intended - a modem and router? The 8800NL copes well with full loading.
I'm interested in the answer to this question, as I intend to use a 8800NL as a modem and router (no clients), together with a Draytek 2830 (all clients) when I get my FTTC enabled in two days time. (My master socket is in the attic, where I will put the 8800, and continue with the Draytek for WiFi etc.) Why use PPPoE Bridged mode, when I can simply route between the draytek and the 8800NL?
Thanks
bridge mode prevents a double NAT situation which can play havok with things that need to be forwarded through the firewall
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Is there a good reason why you can't just use the 8800NL as intended - a modem and router? The 8800NL copes well with full loading.
I'm interested in the answer to this question, as I intend to use a 8800NL as a modem and router (no clients), together with a Draytek 2830 (all clients) when I get my FTTC enabled in two days time. (My master socket is in the attic, where I will put the 8800, and continue with the Draytek for WiFi etc.) Why use PPPoE Bridged mode, when I can simply route between the draytek and the 8800NL?
Thanks
bridge mode prevents a double NAT situation which can play havok with things that need to be forwarded through the firewall
Thanks. As double NAT seems to be working with this setup on adsl I'll give it a go with fttc.
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I'm using a draytek 2920 connected using 2 cat5 cables to my 8800nl configured in bridge mode.
I've taken folks' advice and have one cable for pppoe and the other for just accessing the modem for its stats.
I've used the gui to isolate the 2 ethernet ports as suggested.
Been up nearly a week without hangs. Thanks folks.
-- gyre --
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I am not sure if this is the correct place - if not please move it - What should be the MTU setting for this router when using it as a VDSL Modem/Router
The reason I am asking is because I am confused :-[
In several places the setting is stated as being 1492 when using the BT Modem and also 1492 when using the built in modem
But from the Sky and TalkTalk instructions when using their combined modem/router it should be 1500
A brief explanation as to why would also be appreciated
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I would guess 1500 because its not using ATM anymore, but just a guess. 1492 accounted for ATM framing overheads
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1492 for FTTC
1500 for ADSL
1500 can be used for FTTC with some adjustments to jumbo frames, but if you dont know what thats about do 1492.
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So does that mean that TalkTalk do that automatically or that they don't use PPPOe
http://help2.talktalk.co.uk/what-mtu Please note: There is one exception to this rule with TalkTalk fibre routers. They normally have the MTU set to 1500 and you should not change this to 1432.
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most likely their page is simply wrong (out of date).
1500 bytes on ipv4 will still work as mtu discovery wll fix it on the fly, but it will slow things down.
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1492 for FTTC
1500 for ADSL
1500 can be used for FTTC with some adjustments to jumbo frames, but if you dont know what thats about do 1492.
ADSL used 1492. I know because I spent months arguing with plusnet over it (the DSLAM was trying to use a 64kb mtu and screwing up my connection badly, PN and BT denied there was anything wrong, despite my repeatedly providing proof) I had to manually override it at my end, which improved things but still didn't fix the problem, which wasn't solved until I switched to LLU.
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My understanding was PPPoA VS PPPoE - my ADSL line used the former throughout its life, meaning the standard ethernet max of 1500 was fine and I knew nothing about MTU - but with ppp over ethernet (VS ATM), you lose some capacity due to the extra ethernet frame involved.
Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head.
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My understanding was PPPoA VS PPPoE - my ADSL line used the former throughout its life, meaning the standard ethernet max of 1500 was fine and I knew nothing about MTU - but with ppp over ethernet (VS ATM), you lose some capacity due to the extra ethernet frame involved.
Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head.
PPPoA actually used 1492, but 1500 would work. 64kb worked but the throughput was atrocious.
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I'm not saying it didn't in your case, but normally I don't think it has a special lower MTU - e.g. MTU is mentioned very early on in the PPPoA wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol_over_ATM).
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"It also avoids the issues that PPPoE suffers from, related to having a MTU lower than that of standard Ethernet transmission protocols"
as I said 1500 bytes for pppoa
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Kitz has a nice tutorial on MTU http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm)
I just keep it at the default of 1500 on FTTC but play around with it and see http://www.linksys.com/us/support-article?articleNum=134914 (http://www.linksys.com/us/support-article?articleNum=134914)
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I tried to answer Oldjim's question previously on the plusnet forums. I thought the 1492 MTU limit does not apply to combined VDSL2 modem/routers because there's no Ethernet link between the modem and the router.
If there's an Ethernet connection between a separate VDSL2 modem and router, without jumbo frames, that would limit the Ethernet payload to 1500, and to allow for the PPPoE layer overheads, that limits the IP packet size to 1492.
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I thought I remembered raising it there but I couldn't remember :-[
Old age strikes again
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In aa's clueless* there's LCPFix for talktalk lines.
LCPFix
Re-negotiates PPP LCP after acquiring the connection from BT (who may provide a wrong high MTU of 1500 on a 1492 link)
More info: During the ppp connection when your router initially syncs up and logs in to us, the ppp connection is passed via BT. Sometimes BT can change the MTU. With this option we will accept the PPP connection from BT, but will then re-negotiate the PPP connection with your router allowing the MTU to be reduced. On TalkTalk connections the MTU is always negotiated as 1492, you need to select LCPFix and an MTU 1500 to fix this (otherwise the LNS will use 1492 when re-negotiating)
http://support.aa.net.uk/Other_Line_Options
Chrysalis's useful thread from a while back :)
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=12842.0
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*Had no issues using 1508 or 1526 setting with aa -
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So does that mean that TalkTalk do that automatically or that they don't use PPPOe
http://help2.talktalk.co.uk/what-mtu Please note: There is one exception to this rule with TalkTalk fibre routers. They normally have the MTU set to 1500 and you should not change this to 1432.
TT have always been weird. Possibly down to the fact that they inherited a some of their backhaul from AOL. Which historically has always been prone to MTU issues.
TT Fibre is the only one that uses IPoE, all the others use PPPoE.
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Hmm . . . Perhaps all this MTU/MRU discussion should be split off into its own thread? :-\
I had to double check the subject line: Billion Bipac 8800NL. ???
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So does that mean that TalkTalk do that automatically or that they don't use PPPOe
http://help2.talktalk.co.uk/what-mtu Please note: There is one exception to this rule with TalkTalk fibre routers. They normally have the MTU set to 1500 and you should not change this to 1432.
TT have always been weird. Possibly down to the fact that they inherited a some of their backhaul from AOL. Which historically has always been prone to MTU issues.
TT Fibre is the only one that uses IPoE, all the others use PPPoE.
ok sorry I wasnt aware they didnt use PPPOE.
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Hi sorry to butt into the middle of this convo. I have got a billion 8800nl and im just wondering if my stats look normal to you guys? I am worried I have a lot of ES. I have come from a huawei hg523a which said I had 0 ES (over a 48hour period not sure if I believed it).
The hg523a also seemed slightly faster in speedtests, 5.8meg compared to 5.4meg on the billion.
DLM kept putting my snr up with the billion so I got talktalk to put me on the 9db profile and turn off dlm.
Anyway here are my stats from 5 days of use:
(https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11070925_10152984939617885_1432140229210807545_n.jpg?oh=c2b0040f17940a448405beefde2cbf7d&oe=55A8ED53)
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Anyway here are my stats from 5 days of use:
Not to bad for a 3.4km line lets take your errored second total over 5 days 2841 we divide by 5 and that will give you 568 ES per day then we divide by 24 to get ES per hour = 23.6 it's ok
You can go a bit further and divide 23.6 by 60 to get errored seconds per minute = 0.39
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Anyway here are my stats from 5 days of use:
Not to bad for a 3.4km line lets take your errored second total over 5 days 2841 we divide by 5 and that will give you 568 ES per day then we divide by 24 to get ES per hour = 23.6 it's ok
Thankyou very much for that, I was worried :)
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Hello guys, recently got an 8800nl.
Having slow wireless performance, I have a powerline wireless setup and that seems to get 20mbps and the 8800nl gets 11.30.
Unsure as to why, are there any settings I should be aware of or are there any ways to improve the wireless itself?
Or should I consider a different router? Cheers.
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Just had a surprise - my cab has gone live rather earlier than expected
Given that I don't need fancy wireless or gigabit network is there any real reason why I shouldn't get one of these on order as soon as I have screwed the best deal out of Plusnet tomorrow (note I am in the middle of a 24 month contract so suggestions about different suppliers aren't possible)
This is the estimate
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Go for it, Jim, its a really good bit of kit and an absolute bargain at around £60. I've tested some other VDSL kit, and the 8800NL has proved to be the best on my long'ish line. It was also the best out of over 100 different ADSL combos I've tested over the years.
Only exceeded in value-for-money by a similarly-performing ZTE H168N (but which is not as good re stats harvesting).
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Can you use the 8800NL in bridge mode with another router?
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@AlecR
Its WAN configuration page has 3 settings for PTM:
PPPoE over Ethernet (PPPoE)
IP over Ethernet
Bridging (what you were asking about)
I've only used the PPPoE - its own router functions are really very good..
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How does it perform on so-called long lines (mine is 750-800 metres)?
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My line is around 1100m. On ADSL1 and ADSL2 (where the line length was 5+km) the 8800 performed, overall, the best of all the very many combos I've tried. Easily the best stability and error-coping - I never observed any sign of bit-loading decay. It wasn't quite the fastest, being only slightly exceeded by DG834GT with DGTeam firmware, but within a few days the DG834 would have suffered bit-loading decay and its max attainable rate dropped below the 8800's. Its wifi isn't outstanding, but was adequate if I ever needed to use it.
On VDSL2, it has been the best of around 5 tested. Highest sync rate, equal best stability and error rates (with ZTE H168N), no bit-loading decay, and I actually found some bit-loading growth a few times. Works well with DSLstats. I've tried all the issued firmwares, but have stuck with the original 2.32d.dm2
I'm on the Plusnet 40M package and get a max achievable of around 45000 and a bearer rate of around 39000 with interleaving at 754.......the interleaving has eliminated the periodic very high CRC rates - most probably electric-fence-affected - that I used to experience with ADSL and days 1&2 of VDSL.....5 stars for VDSL DLM!
Reading about other folk's experiences with other more expensive combos, but not having ventured into the higher-cost arena myself, the 8800NL would seem to be very hard to beat...I thoroughly recommend giving it a try. I don't know about other lines, but on mine, and with my simple requirements of best speed, good error handling, stability and consistency, it would seem the tops! I've not explored its wealth of other features, having no need at present.
Very highly recommended!!!
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Would I see any improvement in performance, changing from a HG612 to 8800NL & using it in PPPoE bridge mode with a Asus
RT-N66U?
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On my line, an unlocked HG612 gave downstream rates that were 10% down on the 8800 on the 2 occasions I tried it, and I did not proceed further with a comparison - back to the Billion within an hour! I've kept the HG612 as a secondary backup - my main backup being the ZTE H168N.
With the 8800, I use a Netgear WGR614 as a wifi router when wifi is needed - tho the 8800 will reach all parts of the house - I just like the separation and easy-turn-ff-when-not-needed. So your scenario should be fine.
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On reflection, I need to add that a 'better' router is unlikely to solve broadband problems per se. If you already have a 'good' line and 'good' home phone wiring and a well-setup computer etc, then you may well see benefits from a better modem/router. But getting those precursors right is the most important!
Of the several-hundred calls I've attended (I'm retired and it is a hobby), being described to me as 'broadband problems', I find the causes to be (roughly):
1. Computer short of RAM 15%
2. Infected computer 10%
3. House phone wiring quality/arrangement 50%
4. ISP-related issue 10%
5. Line/Exchange fault 10%
6. Faulty/problematic/poor modem/router 5%
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Sorry thread Hi-Jacking time :D
Who has the 8800NL setup with IPv6 on the LAN side running DHCP6? Can you help as I cannot for the life of me get DHCP6 running properly and it's driving me nuts.
I have the WAN connection using IPV6 all fine, however the IPv6 on he LAN side using DHCP6 is not working.
-Azz
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azzaka I just checked the ipv6 lan config page.
IPv6 LAN Applications
make sure the issue router advertisements is ticked.
also is this box populated? "Interface Address / Prefix Length"
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EDIT:~
The LAN is now issuing the Address correctly, however it does not appear to be passing it across.
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I've joined the 8800NL party! :)
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welcome aboard. :)
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Any advice for me when I receive it (tomorrow: Amazon Prime)?
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just make sure is a 30+ min gap between unplugging the hg612 and connecting the billion.
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It's not going well. I cannot get the 8800NL to sync...
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A complete guess by me, because I have absolutely no idea of how you are attempting to configure the device, but ensure that you have set up a vlan tagged with the ID 101 . . . :-\
If all else fails, take a look at how an HG612 is configured.
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I'm trying it out as a router first, with PTM selected (VDSL).
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I'm trying it out as a router first,
Ah, I see. :)
with PTM selected (VDSL).
And now I don't see. ??? The settings for the modem has no relevance on configuring the device as just a router. :no:
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The 8800NL is going to perform the routing and modem duties. It is a one-box solution.
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The kitz guide for the Zyxel may help- http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/zyxel_VMG8324-B10A_vdsl_setup.htm . The GUI is not the same but key things are there.
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Mine just worked out of the box using the quick start menu and following the instructions summarised below from the Plusnet Forums hence the Plusnet specific details
8800NL Setup
In the QUICK START menu:
WAN Interface ( WAN > Wireless )
Main Port = DSL
Layer 2 Interface = PTM (VDSL)
Type = PPPoE
WAN IP Address = Obtain an IP Address Automatically
Click Continue.
WAN Interface ( WAN > Wireless ) 2nd Screen.
WAN Service.
Type = PPP over Ethernet (PPPoE)
Username = *********@plusdsl.net (******** = your username that you login in with)
Password = The one you login with.
Service Name = Plusnet (Can be blank)
Authentication Method = CHAP (Can be AUTO, but found it works better if you select CHAP)
IPv4 Address = Static (UNCHECKED)
IP Address = Will be blanked out unless above is checked in which case enter your IP address.
IPv6 for this service = Enable (UNCHECKED)
MTU = 1492
Click Continue & WAIT for about 15-20 seconds, if you've done it all correctly it will connect.
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You certainly shouldn't be entering your IP address (static IP I presume). You get assigned the same one each time your connection us re-established.
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But the ISP connection for me is irrelevant as the 8800NL won't even sync :(
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The Billion can have vdsl disabled but it is normally enabled by default. Equally it should be in modem and router mode not be in a router only ppoe mode.
You also might try changing the adsl lead. I had (now binned) a modem lead that worked with the HG612 but not with the ECI/r or other modems. It was due to a slight defect in the plastic channels that the RJ11 connectors sit in, so basically depending on tolerances it sometimes simply failed to connect.
You could post screen shots of the settings so they can be checked.
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I have the same router on the same ISP. I had to change a couple of the PTM settings from the default for it to work. I have attached what works for me :)
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Nobody's understanding that those settings won't make the router sync :)
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Nobody's understanding that those settings won't make the router sync :)
I used one of these (but on a BT connection) and setup was straightforward when I followed the quick-start that came with the kit..
Could you share the config you have used to set the 8800 up?
I can see you've posted on the Billion forum without much progress (I'm assuming that's you anyway ;))
Cheers
Samwise
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This is an odd one - I have been using this router for 5 days and until today (after the first time) I didn't need to put in the username and password to login but today it has started to require it -any thoughts
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Got my replacement 8800NL today and it synced up right away :)
Still getting disconnects but that's a line issue.
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This is an odd one - I have been using this router for 5 days and until today (after the first time) I didn't need to put in the username and password to login but today it has started to require it -any thoughts
I have since got rid of my 8800NL, but from what I recall the login details were sometimes stored in the browser (cookie?) and had an extended expiry.
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How would I configure Hurricane Electric's IPv6 6in4 tunnel on the 8800NL?
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I've been trying an 8800NL on my FTTC connection, it produces a noticeably higher attainable rate than my HG612 - strange thing is while the HG612 settles down to producing around 100-200 FEC errors/minute the 8800 produces a fairly constant 20-25,000 FECs per minute. Any idea why the massive difference?
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Interestingly I also get quite a ridiculous FEC rate on the 8800NL. I got 2727940 FECs in 24 hours, for example.
I haven't used the HG612 for a while (in fact I don't have one anymore - trying to obtain a new one), so I can't remember what the FEC rate was like on that.