Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: OldTimer on February 01, 2014, 10:07:02 AM
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Hello,
Could some kind soul help me understand whether my indicated Output Power is anywhere near normal for the Attenuation indicated in my Router stats?
The Kitz Line Checker estimates my residence is 3.13 Km from the exchange (directly), and approximately 3.6 Km by road.
My Router stats indicate the following:
Line Attenuation: 54.7 dB / 34.7 dB
Output Power: (Down/Up) 7.0 dBm / 1.5 dBm.
I am trying to understand whether this is in any way part of an ongoing issue over which I am in dialogue with my ISP.
I would be very appreciative of comment on the above.
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Those values are unusually low, and would suggest that there's some underlying problem. The problem could possibly be your router, so do you have an alternative which you could try?
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Thanks for coming back so quickly! My ISP is BT and currently I am connected by the means of a Hub 2. I also have a Hub 4, but quite frankly the Output Power is exactly the same when that is connected.
Here are the full stats from my HH2:
ADSL line status
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 17:37:06
Downstream 4,359 Kbps
Upstream 445 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 6.8 dB / 23.3 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 54.7 dB / 34.0 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 7.0 dBm / 1.6 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 35240 / 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 1167224 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 5702 / 0
The issue I have been in dialogue with BT about concerns my upload throughput. Since they put me on to ADSL 2 I had an upload profile of over 1 Mbps, but never got anywhere near that. In fact I was only seeing uploads of around 0.23 Mbps. Recently, in an effort to understand what was going off they 'capped' my upload at 0.45 Mbps. The upload throughput then rose slightly to a consistent 0.38 Mbps.
Just in case you wonder why I re-connected the older HH2, the reasons were that I was not convinced that the HH4 wasn't in some way faulty, and I do get a modest improvement in download speed with the HH2.
I also have noticed a significant increase in the errors reported since I re-connected the HH2 yesterday.
Thank you so much for trying to help, as I use upload quite a lot, uploading audio & video files to a server inthe USA. As the files are usually 30 - 40 minutes long, you will understand why a good upload speed is important to me.
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Due to my line's length and its condition, I find it beneficial to use ADSL2 mode.
Absolute values in isolation are not that helpful in diagnosing a potential problem, so to have some data with which to make a comparison, here follows some parameters (freshly harvested) from my line --
# xdslcmd info --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 8000
Max: Upstream rate = 1068 Kbps, Downstream rate = 6168 Kbps
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 1020 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5637 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2
TPS-TC: ATM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 5.1 7.0
Attn(dB): 46.0 27.4
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 12.8
<snip>
Unfortunately my modem/router (a Huawei HG622) is unable to report the power output of the remote MSAN (a device with an Infineon chipset).
Looking critically at both the power output and the attenuation for the upstream of your line, both seem to be abnormal.
We can clearly see the attempt to cap your upstream synchronisation speed by the high (23.3 dB) SNRM. Unfortunately that is doing nothing other than masking the (obvious) underlying problem.
I also note that your line appears to be configured for fast path.
Ideally I would like to see a graphical presentation of your line's behaviour (over a period of a couple of days, minimum) with the line configured for a 6 dB target SNRM in interleaved mode.
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hmm very strange. If you power output was that low then youd expect it to affect your connection speeds, yet your speed seems good for a 55dB line.
55dB is approx 4km of line length, so that also ties in with the approx 3.6km by road if you add in any local layouts etc.
When I first saw the stats, like eric I suspected a router logging issue, perhaps missing the trailing '1' ie 7 = 17, but thats out the window as youve tried a different router. (common HH f/w issue?)
Its rather strange, and tbh I dont honestly think those power readings can be true, otherwise youd be lucky to get any sort of connection on a 55dB line. An extremely short line would need more power than that to get adsl1, nvm adsl2+
Sorry I dont have any further suggestions :(
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Me, do a graph! Now that doesn't happen very often. What particular targets would you want to see, and ideally how many days would you suggest would be best to record? Also, how many examples each day would be suitable. If you can let me know, I will do my best to give you the relevant information to consider.
I really appreciate your helpful suggestion burakkucat.
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Theres nothing that can be graphed from a HH4 anyhow, its too locked down. :(
Im not sure about the HH2, it may work with Routerstats Lite with a lot of tweaking, but I think the main problem is it uses a dynamic page.
John (vlowen) has done a couple of hack-arounds for the HH3 and HH5, but afaik theres only the HH1 which worked properly with RSLite.
He's a helpful chappy and having used all of the HHs on his own connection he is probably the best person to ask.
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
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I appreciate you chipping in Kitz.. Here's just a quick follow up to my last post. As a further snapshot in time, about 5 hours on from the last example, I have just taken another peek at the HH2 stats, here is what came up:
ADSL line status
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 1 days, 02:55:53
Downstream 4,359 Kbps
Upstream 445 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 4.9 dB / 23.9 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 54.7 dB / 34.0 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 6.3 dBm / 1.6 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 27815 / 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 3142324 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 13117 / 0
There are little differences, and the Down error stats are creeping up, but when burakkucat gets back to me I try and do a longer monitoring of things.
Apparently, according to BT, although they had tried to increase the upload speed, they had been unable to do so, as my line became unstable when they attempted it. The fact is that I have had better speeds before, but now it would seem they cannot be replicated.
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Having just re-read the earlier posts in this thread, I realise that I have committed a folly. :paperbag:
Using any of the HHs will be problematic and, as Kitz has mentioned, probably the only utility that may operate with any degree of success is John Owen's RouterStats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm) (or RouterStats-Lite). As for the parameters to plot, synchronisation speed and SNRM would be the absolute minimum. (Basically the more data that can be plotted v time, the better.)
Do you know of anyone who may be able to lend you a modem/router? Off the top of my head, I'd say that a Netgear DG834Gv4 would be ideal. Or even a 2Wire 2700HGV, also known as a BT Business Hub, V2.0.
Edited to add:
The errors (CRC & HEC) and error seconds are accumulating because your line has been configured on fast path, rather than interleaved --
Latency type Fast
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Sorry for the delayed response. Sadly I don't know anyone who might have either of the modem/routers lying around. I spoke to the guy next door today who would have been the most likely, but he's with Talk-Talk and uses a 'Billion' himself. He, apparently, gets a lower download speed than I do (although my problem is with the upload speed).
I did look on e-bay and there are a few 're-furbished' or 'used' examples of the two modem/routers you mentioned.
I have however been seriously wondering today whether to invest in a new non-BT modem/router, one that would enable me to monitor the stats & performance more effectively. Mind you, with the improvement in wireless technology, I can't afford to keep shelling out for new kit, so would want any purchase I make to be reasonably future-proof, for the forseeable future at least. I see that following on from the 802.11n standard there is something referred to as 802.11ac. I accept that presently I may not be able to use such a piece of kit to its full potential, but in trying to look far enough ahead, would something with that standard be reasonable, or perhaps over-the-top?
If I was to take advantage of Routerstats then I rather spend my money on something that would be reasonably future-proof as I said, and would integrate easily with RS.
As always, I would really appreciate your thoughts.
Regards,
Alan
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Both routers are now old models, but b*cat will have recommended them because they both have an excellent reputation for stability on long lines.
Its sometimes hard to suggest a router, because what works well on long lines doesnt always work well on short lines so its often a case of 'suck it and see'. As an example the 2700 is rubbish on short lines whilst the ST585's and the TG582N gave me far better speeds. (Im talking 6Mb more). Yet someone on a long line doesnt quite fair as well with the ST's and call them rubbish.
I think you are wise wanting to future proof, and it has to be said that 802.11ac standard is still very much in its infancy and has had some teething problems. If you really are looking to the future then one which is vdsl2 compatible may be a good move.
If you are looking for one that monitors stats, then a BCM chipset is a must. Eric keeps an up to date record of those routers here (http://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php/BCM_routers).
Im perhaps not the best person to ask as I too am in the market for decent priced vdsl modem/router, but havent quite yet found one that ticks all the right boxes. Theres aZyxel one thats come near and also TG589vn v3 which came into budget but disappointingly let down due to not having gigE ports.
Possibly the best thing to do may be if you see one that strikes your fancy and then we can give opinions.
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PS
Meant to say, the added advantage of a BCM chipset is most of them work very well with erics DSLstats (http://www.s446074245.websitehome.co.uk/), which IMHO is one of the best stats monitoring software you can get. (Not that we are biased or anything ;D) but it does offer more than Routerstats for those routers that it works with.
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Many thanks for a really helpful and encouraging reply. Since penning my previous message I have spent a bit of time looking around at various modem/routers, and as it happened I kept getting drawn to an Asus DSL-N66U Wireless ADSL/VDSL Modem Router.
It is quite a bit more than I had hoped to pay, but looking at the specs it does fit the bill as far as your future proofing recommendation is concerned. So far however I haven't been able to find what chipset it has, I will keep looking. It isn't however listed on the DSLstats list.
I would welcome your thoughts on this particular model, with any advantage, or drawbacks.
Regards,
Alan
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I've had a quick "look around" to see if I could find anything regarding the chipset used in the Asus DSL-N66U.
The best I could find is the output from a cat /proc/cpuinfo command line. It looks to be somewhat truncated but right at the beginning it does show Ralink RT65168 SOC.
# cat /proc/cpuinfo
system type : Ralink RT65168 SOC
processor : 0
cpu model : MIPS 34K V5.4
BogoMIPS : 298.18
wait instruction : yes
microsecond timers : yes
tlb_entries : 64
extra interrupt vector : yes
hardware watchpoint : yes
ASEs implemented : mips16 dsp mt
shadow register sets : 1
VCED exceptions : not available
VCEI exceptions : not available
unaligned accesses : 0
processor : 1
cpu model : MIPS 34K V5.4
BogoMIPS : 223.64
wait instruction : yes
microsecond timers : yes
tlb_entries : 64
extra interrupt vector : yes
hardware watchpoint : yes
ASEs implemented : mips16 dsp mt
shadow register sets : 1
VCED exceptions : not available
VCEI exceptions : not available
unaligned accesses : 0
processor : 2
cpu model : MIPS 34K V5.4
BogoMIPS : 223.64
wait instruction : yes
microsecond timers : yes
Edited to add:
Ralink was bought by MediaTek in 2011.
http://www.mediatek.com/_en/01_products/04_pro.php?sn=1072
http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/hardware/soc/soc.mediatek
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=11470.0
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I guess then if a Broadcom chipset is state-of-the-art and more desirable, this would appear to rule out the Asus DSL-N66U?
I see that its big brother, the Asus RT-N66U N900 does have a Broadcom chipset, but that appears to me, as a complete novice, to require a separate modem - shame!
Regards,
Alan
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The chipset which kitz referred to is the DSL chip in the modem (or modem part of a modem/router). At present, only Broadcom DSL chips have the detailed reporting and configuration capabilities which DSLstats needs to function fully.
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Sorry to have mixed up my original Output Power query with introducing the discussion of different modem/routers, but let me ask one more question on the subject. Whilst not the full future-proof Monty that I aspired to, I came across several reviews of the Billion 7800 DXL today, does anyone have experience of this particular model?
It does appear to have a Broadcom chipset, it seems to be one of the better ones at dealing with longer lines, and it looks well capable of handling two laptops, a desktop, and the wireless network in a small brick terrace property approx 3.6 km from the exchange.
One other question, would it cope with BT Infinity when it reaches us? The cabinet is there, but it will be about May/June I believe before it is available to us.
Regards,
Alan
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I came across several reviews of the Billion 7800 DXL today, does anyone have experience of this particular model?
Yes, I've been using one for the last four weeks or so. It's quite simply the best all-in-one I've ever used. It uses the BCM6361 DSL chip, and on my medium length line it's fast and very stable. And it has more configuration options than any other router I've seen. And it's fully compatible with DSLstats.
It's got four gigabit ports, one of which can be configured as a EWAN port for connecting to a separate modem, so you'd still be able to use it as a router with a VDSL2 modem when you get FTTC. At present it isn't capable of functioning as an all-in-one on VDSL2 connections, although I suspect that a future firmware upgrade may make this possible.
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Hello again,
I'm sorry it has been awhile, but I'm still wrestling with my low (and capped) upload speed on adsl2+. Recently I pushed the boat out so-to-speak and bought the Billion BiPac 7800DXL, so far I'm mightily pleased with it. There are more statistics than you can shake the proverbial stick at, some of which I confess I don't understand, but the 7800DXL is far more informative than either of my previous BT Hubs.
This is just an experiment, but yesterday I monitored the performance on my line and as this forum allows attachments I append it for your perusal and advice.
With the 7800DXL I can at last see a realistic figure for my upstream output power, rather chuffed by that - but whereas the downstream looks to have increased, which is great, the BT Speedtest upstream reflected a consistent 0.25 Kbps throughout the period I monitored the stats. Given that my 'capped' figure is 0.45 Kbps, being on adsl2+ I really need to see something greater than that to allow me to upload audio/video files within a reasonable time frame.
It may be that I just picked a day to monitor the stats which were not the best for my purposes, perhaps another day may be different. I would be glad if some kind soul could take a peek at the attachment and spend an opinion.
I am in an ongoing dialogue with BT about my upload issue, they simply say that my line becomes unstable at the higher speeds. I find that confusing as previously, for about two years I was consistently getting upload speeds of more than double the 'capped' figure. Now I am not even getting the capped speed, yesterday, as you will see if you check out the attachment I was seeing a speed of something like 0.25 Kbps :(
Hopefully someone will pick this up and come back with some pearls of Kitz wisdom.
Regards,
Alan
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Hello OT
In order to understand what's going on, we really need to see some graphical monitoring results. DSLstats works well with the 7800DXL (I use one myself), and the SNR margin and bitloading graphs in particular will tell us far more than any number of words.
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Hi,
Tis I once more. I have downloaded DSLstats as recommended, and am just putting my toe in the water seeing what I need to configure etc... Just to test what you require, I have just taken a 'snapshot' of the SNR and have attached it as an image. Please let me know if that sort of thing is what you mean.
How long would you suggest I leave the laptop on to record the performance, so that I can give you a reasonable picture of what is happening so-to-speak?
Here is the 'copy and paste' stats as found in DSLstats
Stats recorded 21 Mar 2014 12:52:32
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x827a / v0x827a
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD038f.d24h
DSL mode: ADSL2+
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 1 day 16 hours 19 min 11 sec
Downstream Upstream
Attenuation (dB): 54.5 34.8
Connection speed (kbps): 4731 297
SNR margin (dB): 6.2 14.1
Power (dBm): 0.0 12.2
Interleave depth: 32 1
INP: 1.00 0.50
RSCorr/RS (%): 0.0216 0.0276
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0020 0.0000
ES/hour: 0 0
Regards,
Alan
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The US SNRM is abnormally high. It seems clear that Beattie is masking the underlying problem by setting the target SNRM for US to a "silly" value rather than finding the fault and attempting to fix it. :-X
I'll let Eric explain which graphs will be the most useful to see . . . preferably for a 24 hour period.
To save other Kitizens having a problem, I have taken a copy of your one day's statistic file and "munged" it into a PNG image file -- now attached below.
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What we need is to see the SNR margin graph over an extended period. You could set the time per page to (say) 4 hours (in Configuration --> Graphs), and take snapshots of this graph (in Configuration --> Snapshots). This will cover a 24 hour period in 6 snapshots. The other very useful graph is Bitloading, and if you set that to snapshot as well you will have a representative selection covering the 24 hours.
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Here are a couple of Snapshots of the sections that you mentioned. I'm a little anxious about leaving the laptop on overnight, but I guess for once shouldn't hurt. The next snapshots should be taken just after Midnight, about 12:15am.
Something seems to have affected the SNR in the period around teatime. I had left my laptop running and had gone for a walk at the time, so wasn't using it, apart from letting DSLstats run while I was out, and I've left it running since.
Hopefully as you interpret what the graphs are saying you may be able to suggest what might be going on.
Regards,
OldTimer
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Those deep spikes on the upstream SNRM are presumably the reason for your upstream SNRM being set at such a high value. As time goes on it will be interesting to see how often and when these spikes occur, because the timing and frequency might point to a cause. Does something in your home get switched on at around 5 pm (central heating perhaps)?
The bitloading chart looks fairly normal in the downstream for a fairly long line like yours. As you're not getting any bitloading above tone 200 or so, it might be worth doing what b*cat suggested, and forcing the connection mode to ADSL2 instead of ADSL2+. This can be done in the router web configuration utility: Configuration --> WAN --> DSL.
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Purely as a means to provide a point of reference, I attach, below, the bitloading graph for my line. (Scaled, hopefully, to the same size as your bitloading graph.)
Due to its length and quality, the circuit is configured to operate in ADSL2 mode. Note the far healthier loading for the US frequencies.
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As suggested I unticked adsl2+ in the 7800DXL's DSL config option, and the upstream SNR immediately shot up to over 20 dB, the downstream SNR dropped slightly.
Here are stats taken from the 7800DXL:
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 2.6 20.9
Attenuation (dB) 51.5 34.5
Output Power (dBm) 0.0 12.6
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 5620 928
Rate (Kbps) 4843 444
These reflect marginal changes in the downstream figures, but the upstream Attainable has increased to what I thought I might get with adsl2, but never have (so far), and the actual Rate has increased, back up to the so-called capped level.
What I have also noticed is that the 7800DXL is now reporting the 'Mode' as ADSL_G.dmt.bis. This is a bit of a surprise, not even adsl2......., what do you make of that? By the way, DSLstats is still reporting the Mode as adsl2+. Will that change in the 4hr cycle that I have set in config?
Regards,
OldTimer
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Those deep spikes on the upstream SNRM are presumably the reason for your upstream SNRM being set at such a high value. As time goes on it will be interesting to see how often and when these spikes occur, because the timing and frequency might point to a cause. Does something in your home get switched on at around 5 pm (central heating perhaps)?
Sorry, overlooked answering this question ... as far as I can think there is nothing that gets switched on around 5pm that's not already on. And as far as the central heating is concerned, I would have switched it off before now, but she who must be obeyed feels rather nesh, and the 'gas' fired boiler has been on for ages - just controlled by the thermostats on the rads. :)
Regards,
OldTimer (aka Alan)
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What I have also noticed is that the 7800DXL is now reporting the 'Mode' as ADSL_G.dmt.bis.
That's fine, there's nothing to worry about. The following will explain --
G.Dmt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.dmt) == ITU G.992.1
ADSL2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADSL2) == ITU G.992.3 == G.Dmt.bis
ADSL2+ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADSL2%2B) == ITU G.992.5 == G.Dmt.bis+ == G.adslplus
I would prefer to review 24 hours worth of harvested statistics from your line. Obviously we will see a "step change" when you reconfigured the modulation from ADSL2+ to ADSL2 but that will not be a problem, as it is expected. If the source of the sudden deep drops in the US SNRM can be identified and removed, then the US target SNRM can be reduced back to sensible value (around 6 - 7 dB).
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I would prefer to review 24 hours worth of harvested statistics from your line.
Hi, Tis I once more,
As requested I left DSLstats running overnight to capture the performance over a full 24hr period. Observation, even to my untrained eye, over the full 24hrs is quite interesting. As you will expect it will take several post to send all the snapshots.
The spike around teatime yesterday you may recall from ny post yesterday evening, but when I got up this morning, I noticed that my laptop had 'gone to sleep' around 5.30am, as a result the graph flatlined around that point. I ought to have thought about it before, but I amended the instruction in Contol Panel, so that if I leave DSLstats running overnight again my machine should 'go to sleep' as before when left unattended.
You will notice that around Noon today (22nd) the SNR graph again shows a deep spike. I was in front of my laptop at the time so I know that at that point I had two dropped connections in very quick succession. It dropped out, but came back quite quickly, only to drop again within a few seconds.
The last captured graph was supposed to be around 6:31pm tonight, and I have included that. The SNR graphs of course tell the story, and you will interpret them I'm sure, but towards the end of the last period the downstream SNR almost dropped off the scale. At one point it was down to 0.1 dB.
I am also including a couple of extra graphs which I captured manually. I have done so because as I was about the stop DSLstats there was another dropped connection . It came back fairly quickly once again, there was no deep spike on this occasion. However when it did come back I noticed that the SNR had improved slightly.
Anyway, enough of my wittering, the graphs are attached. I await your comments with interest.
Regards,
OldTimer
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Snapshot post (2)
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Snapshot post (3)
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Snapshot post (4)
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Snapshot (5) - The last one.
I must congratulate Eric on DSLstats, a fabulous program :thumbs:
I look forward to hearing what you think.
Regards,
OldTimer
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There's obviously something that's keeping your upstream low, so perhaps need to think what is happening at those times when the snrm dips. Normally it's something electrical switched on, but first I'm going to ask.... Did those times coincide with the voice telephone being in use?
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Hi Kitz,
Thank you for your thoughts. I accept that It is likely that in a period of 24hrs the phone will have been used, but I'm 99.99% sure that it is not that. The phone is cordless I accept, but looking at some of the periods when the snrm dips I'm pretty confident that the phone was not in use.
As far as switching on anything electrical I have sat in front of the laptop and deliberately watched for some extraordinary 'manifestation' when the TV was switched on, likewise the vacuum cleaner, electric kettle, etc, etc......, but no unusual disturbance was noted when those things happened. Indeed, when you look at the 'waves of the sea' pattern of the line being registered on the snrm during the early hours we were well in the land of nod!
Apart from the severe spike that happened around lunchtime today when there were two dropped connections in rapid succession, the spike yesterday had no such event attached. For that one both DSLstats and the Billion 7800DXL Router/Modem both registered a continuous connection.
Regards,
OldTimer
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I must admit that my first thought was "could Senior Management have been using the phone at the times of those severe, sudden drops in the US SNRM?" I now understand that was not the case.
Even though it is a cordless phone, the base station is still connected to the line. Do you still posses a classic, wired telephone? Have you noticed any audible noise when using the telephone? Have you tried the quiet line test?
With a classic, wired telephone connected to the line (if possible, otherwise use your cordless phone), call 17070 and take option 2 from the menu, the Quiet Line Test. Now just critically listen . . . you should hear absolute silence (only to be interrupted by Beattie announcing "Quiet Line Test" every so often). Clear down that call. Now recall 17070 and take option 1, the Ring Back Test. Whilst that is taking place, see if there is a sudden change in the SNRM graph.
From what limited evidence we have seen, I am convinced that there is a physical defect in the metallic pathway of your circuit. :( Exactly what defect and where it is located is still unknown.
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Hello again,
Many thanks for your words of wisdom. I have just done the suggested tests (with the cordless phone) and can confirm that the line is certainly not silent!! There is quite a distinct and loud buzz right throughout the quiet line test. Also, either following, or during the actual test I lost the connection once again. As a consequence there was quite a spike on the SNRM graph. I had changed it to 1hr so that I could see it more easily.
I also did the Ring Back test and yes, you've guessed it the buzz was still there, and again I suffered a dropped connection.
If this is the cause, where do I go from here? Also, does the actual placement of the Router/Modem have any significance.
As I say, thanks again. May I just say that I have had more practical help and advice from the forum here than when I contacted Beattie!
Regards,
OldTimer
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Ah, now that is interesting. :)
What you now really must do is to repeat the QLT with only a classic, wired telephone connected directly to the test socket of the NTE5/A. If you do not possess a wired telephone, could you possibly borrow one from a neighbour, friend or relative? It is absolutely important that the test is performed without the use of a cordless phone. With only the wired telephone connected to the test socket, repeat the QLT. If you hear any hum, buzz, clicks, plops, voices in the background, etc, then it is time to report a "noisy telephone line" (without making any mention of the broadband service) to the entity to which you pay for the telephony service. Your telephony service provider will, after informing you potential charges, then book an Openreach network / PSTN engineering visit. That engineer will then be tasked to bring the circuit back into specification.
Once that has been done, you should then find that the broadband problem is no longer present. (In parenthesis I will say that you will, no doubt, need to contact your ISP to have the US target SNRM reset at (a sane) 6 dB, once the circuit has been repaired.)
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:D(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fportalpark.net%2F10204%2F3%2Fw.png&hash=2d6923a514363ddd9931212f9e90057efc619d1e)
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Things are progressing - at least my level of understanding. Rumaging through old treasures I did find an old wired phone that my mum used to have before she died. Taking the front plate off and plugging into the test socket I did the quiet line / ringback tests and I have to admit that the loudness of the buzz had disappeared, but there was still a much softer hum in the background. I can't say that there was no sound at all.
Secondly, I must mention that normally we have a splitter plugged in the phone socket. This carries the line to the phone base station, and also connects the Sky+ box to the phone line as per the Sky contract (for updates, monitoring etc..). I removed the splitter and tried just plugging firstly the old wired phone, then just the phone base station, the results were quite revealing. In each case the very loud buzz had greatly diminished, although the softer sound, referred to earlier was still there. I think that the splitter must be faulty, as when I replaced it and connected everything back up, back came the loud buzz when I did the tests.
To give you some further idea of our configuration, the 7800DXL Router/Modem is about 2ft from the phone case station, not much further from a surge protected power source (extension with eight sockets), and the TV which is about 3ft away (connected by an ethernet cable to the 7800DXL).
I am trying to think of a way to alter the configuration so that the 7800DXL is further away from all the jumble of wires and possible interference, but as you will understand one has to satisfy 'Senior Management', who will comment "you're not putting it there" - if you know what I mean :no:
So I think I am a little clearer, but with work still to do. God willing I will go and get another splitter tomorrow, that will at least take care of that Issue I hope, then it is 'thinking cap time' to see if I can alter the configuration before I involve a line engineer from Beattie.
DSLstats is still showing a SNRM level of above 23 dB for the upstream, and around 3 dB for the downstream.
Many, many thanks for your help thus far - do you have any further thoughts?
Regards,
OldTimer
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An odd point; in one of your posts you asked about Router placing.
It is "good practice" when possible, to keep wires carrying signal (ADSL etc ) short and direct but keep the Router's PSU, which is a possible source of REIN, as distant as possible from the Router .
Don't go overboard on this; I have just detectable interference from BBC Droitwich, which is some 100 miles away. I could probably reduce it but it wouldn't buy sufficient speed/SNR to be worth the effort, i.e. If it ain't bust don't fix it.
Otherwise I leave you in burakkucat's capable hands.
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but there was still a much softer hum in the background. I can't say that there was no sound at all.
My line is the same, I cant recall it ever being completely quiet and I think a small amount is considered within normal realms. I suppose it also depends on how astute your hearing is.
DSLstats is still showing a SNRM level of above 23 dB for the upstream,
As said by Bcat earlier in the thread, it looks like your upstream has been capped. Your graph "SNRMargin-2014-03-22-14.31.18.png" shows us why its been capped and it looks like that may have been happening for a while.
As it stands at the moment your line needs the 23dB SNRm on the upstream to stay in sync. Now we need to find out what is causing that huge downwards spike. I was hoping that it would co-incide with use of the voice phone, because then we could either point the blame at your internal wiring or your phone-line. If it was your phone line then you could throw it at BT to fix, and tell you what you need to say to the BToR engineer.
Tracking down EMI/REIN is often a bit harder to find the source. :(
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Firstly, I am conscious that this thread has gone way beyond my original Output Power query, I don't know whether you are happy to leave it running under this same heading. Let me know if you want me to do anything differently.
That being said, initially in response to JGO's comments I do intend to see what I can do to improve the placement of the various pieces of kit, principally to try and see if by doing so it makes any difference. As said before, it will have to be done with Senior Management's blessing ;)
Kitz, thank you for your helpful comments, I suppose what I need to do is employ DSLstats monitoring a little more, in an effort to try and identify times and possible sources of any interference. I set DSLstats recording again when I came back from church tonight, and will again leave it running overnight to see what it captures.
Currently the cordless phone base station is plugged directly into the master socket, I have not yet re-inserted the splitter as I suspect that it is faulty, but I will hopefully go out tomorrow and buy a new one. Once I have the new splitter I will do another 'quiet line test' to see, with the new splitter in place, whether I then get the loud buzz that I did when the old one was being used.
I have read the REIN article on the site, and from what it said it does seem it may take a little time to identify the cause of the interference that may be causing my problem. I guess that it's a case of combining the DSLstats monitoring with a process of elemination. If you have any suggestions as to what else I can do please let me know.
Once again, many thanks.
OldTimer
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Sorry not to have responded before now . . . I was out all day Sunday and am just "catching up" with things.
I would really like to clarify your wiring situation, please.
The D-side pair (from the PCP) will be brought to a DP near to your home. Does the service feed from the DP come to you as an aerial drop cable or does it arrive from underground? The service feed may have a junction on the outside or just inside your property and then internal cable will be used from that point to the NTE5/A.
Apart from the NTE5/A, are there any other telephone sockets (extension sockets) fitted? If yes, are they wired to the back of the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/A?
My feeling is that you only have an NTE5/A and no extension sockets.
You have mentioned a "spliter". Do you mean a plug-in micro-filter? Or a plug-in doubler?
Now a possible problem. The Sky "box". Exactly how is it connected to the line? What is its relationship with the micro-filter?
Sorry for all the questions . . . Ideally I would like to "see" exactly how you have the various items interconnected.
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Further to Bkat's latest posting, IF your splitter is a microfilter you might like to consider a filtered faceplate in its place: http://www.adslnation.com/products/xtespec.php
This device gives you a phone socket and an ADSL socket side by side, without need for external filters. This is less prone to damage ( and looks neater to appeal to Senior Management).
IF you do have extension wiring, it also obviates the need for microfilters at ext'n phones too.
PLEASE REGARD THIS AS A TENTATIVE SUGGESTION till B'kat has posted his thoughts on your setup.
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Hi JGO & burakkucat
I have the type of Master socket that doesn't require seperate filters. My filter is of the type shown in the image attached. This was fitted by an Openreach engineer as part of the investigative process several months ago.
The engineer explained that it would isolate any internal extensions, or wiring, as the box has a dedicated ADSL socket which does not require additional filters.
Regarding your questions Bkat I will respond in a separate post, when we are back from feeding & watering my daughter's pony.
Regards,
OldTimer
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OK you've been there, done that, and used the Tee shirt to wipe the pony !
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Firstly, I am conscious that this thread has gone way beyond my original Output Power query, I don't know whether you are happy to leave it running under this same heading. Let me know if you want me to do anything differently.
I've taken the liberty of changing the original title, to reflect the direction in which the thread has moved.
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The D-side pair (from the PCP) will be brought to a DP near to your home. Does the service feed from the DP come to you as an aerial drop cable or does it arrive from underground? The service feed may have a junction on the outside or just inside your property and then internal cable will be used from that point to the NTE5/A.
It comes as an aerial drop - please see attached image of DP immediately opposite my home. A rather crowded pole methinks. There is a little metal tab attached to the pole which states 'Maximum Load 14'. I think that it has hit that load quite easily. My line is the one that is top-right of the image as you look at it.
There is also a junction attached to my property (see attached image). This was to facilitate a second line, which, although the wires are still there, the line was cancelled by me, in December I think, when I moved my BT Hub to the present location so as to connect it via ethernet cable to the TV.
Apart from the NTE5/A, are there any other telephone sockets (extension sockets) fitted? If yes, are they wired to the back of the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/A?
There are no extension sockets presently connected.
You have mentioned a "spliter". Do you mean a plug-in micro-filter? Or a plug-in doubler?
A plug-in doubler. A new one was purchased and installed this morning.
Now a possible problem. The Sky "box". Exactly how is it connected to the line? What is its relationship with the micro-filter?
It is connected via an lead that plugs into the doubler, and the other end I believe is an RJ11? It doesn't go through any filter as the Master Socket does not need any separate filters as mentioned a few messages ago.
I will have a little monitoring report which I will post later.
Regards,
OldTimer
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Sky boxes can cause interference, even with the arrangement you have. It's worth adding an extra level of filtering by using a micro-filter in the socket where the Sky box is connected.
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As mentioned in my most recent post I have a little monitoring report which I trust will be helpful.
Firstly I left DSLstats on overnight again, and there are several interesting images which I have attached. I won't include them all, but just the SNRM ones that are most revealing.
The overall picture is that both the US and DS SNRM virtually flatlined for most the night(early hours), but around 6 or 7am the DS began to rise till it peaked and remained around 6dB. It was a but wavy here and there but there were no dramatic spikes.
The other thing to say is that on the image 2014-03-24-11.13.41.png if you look over towards the right, just after 9.40am there is a small 'dip' in the US line for what represents a few minutes. I was out at the time, but my wife took a call from the vets that happened at exactly that period. After what I am sure was that call the US line reverts to something aproximating it present normal.
Later, at 10.40am I installed the new doubler, just after that I did both quite & ring-back line tests. I believe that the small 'v' in the US line is when I did those tests.
I then plugged the Sky+ box connection into the doubler and did further quiet & ring-back line tests. Again, I think that this can be seen in the variation on the US line.
By the way, the Quite line tests I did were into the connection on the front of the Master Socket, not the test socket, and with the new coupler attached there was hardly any discernable sound at all.
How you interpret this information?
Regards,
OldTimer
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Sky boxes can cause interference, even with the arrangement you have. It's worth adding an extra level of filtering by using a micro-filter in the socket where the Sky box is connected.
I have just added the extra filter that you recommend.
Regards,
OldTimer
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Just a little bit more info .....
Please see attached image. The small dip after 14:32 on the US SNMR was due to me doing another quiet line test after plugging in the extra filter as recommended by roseway.
The deeper spike on the US SNMR (about 3 dB) at around 14:52 was due I believe to receiving an incoming call at that time.
Is it normal for incoming call to impact the US in the way it evidently is doing? Could it possibly be attributed to the fact that the phone base station and the 7800DXL Router/Modem are too near each other? They are around two feet apart.
Regards,
OldTimer
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It's most unlikely that the wireless signal from the cordless phone is the problem. The frequencies are far apart, and as telephone calls only seem to affect the upstream, that's even more the case. What's not uncommon is for the cordless phone power supply to cause significant interference. But that wouldn't account for the increased interference all the time the phone is off the hook. So my opinion (others may disagree) is that the cordless phone isn't the problem.
The two common reasons for upstream interference during phone calls are defective filters and poor connections in the line from the exchange. It's a pity that the quiet line test doesn't give a more definitive result, because a line fault seems to me to be the most probable explanation. I don't recall at present where your cordless phone is plugged in, but I would replace the filter if it's connected to an extension, or add an extra filter (like you did with the Sky box) if it's connected to the master socket.
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The cordless phone base station is connected to the top slot in the doubler, that in turn is plugged into the Master Socket. I will as suggested add an extra filter.
Regards,
OldTimer
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I've finally "caught up" with today's latest updates, etc. Thank you for the photographs. They nicely clarify the situation.
So you have a SSFP (service specific face plate) installed at the NTE5/A. That is good news. :)
With regards to double filtering, that was something I was going to suggest trying for the Sky box. I see that Eric has now suggested that you doubly filter the telephone base station, as an experiment. That can be easily done with a re-arrangement of your current set-up. Just remove the doubler from the telephony socket of the SSFP and plug a micro-filter in its place. Now plug the doubler into the telephony socket of the micro-filter and then connect the Sky box & telephone base station to the two sockets of the doubler.
Like others, I have suspicions that there is, at least, one defective joint in your pair. That would explain the sudden drop in the (US) SNRM whenever the telephone is used. Unfortunately, as your QLT does not give any indication of audible noise, it is going to be virtually impossible to have that joint (or joints) tracked down and remade. :(
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Thanks Bkat. I have acted on your suggestion and rearranged the set up as advised. I'll now see if that makes any difference.
Inserting the brand new doubler has at least proved the previous one was faulty and was the cause of the loud buzz that was evident when making or receiving calls. So I'm pleased with a little progress at least. :)
If tracking down a possible defective joint is virtually impossible, it may be the case of putting up with what I've got until fibre finally becomes available. However, if, as mentioned earlier on in the thread, the 'fault' is between the street cabinet and my property, from what I have been advised fibre may not benefit me much. What I struggle to understand is that before I moved the BT hub to what is now the Billion 7800DXL's present location I was getting more than double the upload speed I am now getting from the line that was cancelled (although the cables are still there, as you can see from the 'junction' image), and the line seemed to be quite stable.
I am so very grateful for all the practical help and advice that you have all given me. This forum is a credit to all involved. :clap2:
Regards,
OldTimer
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Hmm . . . If there is a joint (or joints) showing HR or semi-conducting tendencies, it (they) will only get worse as time passes. The only hope is that the increased degradation will give rise to audible noise when performing a QLT.
From looking at your second photograph (the external "sausage" joint at the house end of the drop cable), there are a number of wiring configurations that could result in that scenario. Only by a physical examination will the truth be known. :-\
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Hmm . . . If there is a joint (or joints) showing HR or semi-conducting tendencies, it (they) will only get worse as time passes. The only hope is that the increased degradation will give rise to audible noise when performing a QLT.
From looking at your second photograph (the external "sausage" joint at the house end of the drop cable), there are a number of wiring configurations that could result in that scenario. Only by a physical examination will the truth be known. :-\
Sorry to bother you again Bcat .... If what you mean by wiring configurations is what do the two wires coming out of the sausage serve? As you look at the image of 'the sausage joint' .. the one on the left is the line that is currently in use. This line, from the 'sausage joint' was renewed nby the second Openreach engineer. He didn't do anything with that part of the line that goes from the joint to the DP.
Again, as you look at the image, the line on the right is the one that was cancelled, but physically left in place.
A physical examination by whom? .... another Openreach engineer I guess? If so would they come out without saying it would cost me £xxx, and would they come out anyway on the possibility only that the 'sausage joint' as you call it may be part of the issue? As I am sure you fully appreciate it is totally frustrating to believe there may be an problem outside my personal ability to do anything about it. Aunt Beattie's wholesale arm has already inferred there is nothing further they are able to do.
Regards,
OldTimer
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Please don't read too much into my musings regarding "a physical examination" . . . If, for example, Walter, I or another techno-kitizen were nearby one of us might do the (unofficial) deed. ;)
Am I correct in saying that at one time you had two separate "lines" installed? Two separate telephone numbers? Two separate NTE5/As? Both would have been supplied via that drop cable, as it contains two pairs. That is how I understand the situation, based on your mention of a "line being cancelled".
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Absolutely right Bcat. Two lines, two numbers, one cancelled when we had our smart tv and needed to re-position the then BT HH so as to connect to the TV by ethernet cable. Also, at that time, when investigating what I needed to do, I was advised by a Beattie sales person that I would also benefit by getting increased DS/US speeds if I re-positioned the HH. It seemed to be a no-brainer so I went ahead and did the deed. DS certainly improved, but US went south, in fact half of what the actual throughput was before. Before on an actual Audio/Video file upload I was getting 106 K/Sec, now it is mostly 45.6 K/Sec.
I have spent hours interacting with Beattie, and to be fair I have had two Openreach engineers vist. The first one fitted me the SSFP Master Socket, but was unable to do a full line test because of a fault at Beattie's end, the second renewed the line from the 'sausage' type joint on my house to where it connects to the Master Socket. It seems evident to me that Wholesale have given up on me and said there is nothing more they can do. The rest as they say is history!
You're always welcome to have a cup of tea if you are ever in this neck of the woods. :)
Regards,
OldTimer
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Thank you for clarifying the situation and confirming my suspicions. :)
There is another option available to you. That is to change to a CP (ISP) who will take note of your current problem and then chase Openreach, in the correct fashion, until the defect is fixed. I won't make any recommendations . . . because such a CP will undoubtedly be more expensive than BT Retail. :-X
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Just by way of interest, I have just uploaded a 42 minute audio file to the destination server in the USA, and monitoring the SRNM levels throughout showed no discernable variation in the US level for the 6+ minutes that it took to upload. Predictably, the throughput speed was around 46.6 K/Sec.
So far, since I installed DSLstats, the only noticable variation in the US levels have been caused by making and receiving phone calls.
Regards,
OldTimer
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There seems little doubt where the problem lies. If your ISP won't organise a proper thorough investigation, and changing ISP isn't an option, then it comes down to waiting and hoping that the problem soon gets much worse, so it can't be ignored. :(
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Earlier today I posted a message on the BT Care Forum. I sought to explain that after three solid days of DSL uptime I noticed this morning that I had lost the DSL connection. There were several other observations I mentioned at the same time:
1: ........... after several days of the US speed being 444 Kbps, it seems to have dropped to 168 Kbps. The US SNRM has dropped from just over 21 dB to the present level of 18.6 dB.
2: The DS SNRM dropped from the usual daytime SNRM of around 6.1 dB, to the then level of 3.8 dB.
3: The DS speed had gone up from 4717 Kbps to 5323 Kbps.
The reply I received explained that during the day, for most people, 6dB is normal, but (it wasn't said when) BT have apparently introduced a new normal daytime standard of 3 dB (for good connections). The thinking behind this is that it gives a little more connection speed. Apparently, due to the fact that some lines are unable to maintain the 3 dB, large numbers of errors are sometimes produced during the night, which has the effect of reducing the throughput speed. The possibility exists therefore that such large error-producing lines need to revert back to the previous norm of 6 dB.
Like yourselves the guys on the BT forum are volunteers, so they have my respect, but since receiving that message I have observed something I did not expect on the DSLstats graphs.
Earlier in the day the usual spikes occurred in the US SNRM line when I received a couple of phone calls. They could be seen quite clearly on the snapshot graph.
Then...around 3.15pm (ish) following an outgoing call the expected 'downward' spike didn't happen, instead it went slightly UP from around 18.9 dB to just below 20 dB.
This can be clearly seen in the graph. Then after an unwanted 'nuisance call' (which I did not answer) the SNRM dropped back to around 18.9 dB where it has stayed until now.
I am sorry to weary you again with all this, but I'm just trying to understand a little more about the apparent results of BT's change in SNRM standards. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Apart from the SNRM and Bitloading graphs would any of the others be useful in throwing any more light on what may be happening with my line/connection?
Regards,
OldTimer
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The changes you are observing in the SNRM graphs (upwards and downwards steps, sudden peaks or valleys) are very clear indicators of one or more marginal joints (HR or semi-conducting) in your metallic pathway. :(
The normal condition of the pair is a state of being biased in one direction by the exchange battery but when an incoming call is signalled, that nominal 50 VDC has an alternating voltage superimposed upon it. The elevated voltage then present can form "micro-welds" across such a marginal joint, for example. Or it can just be that the alternating voltage is sufficient to break down a semi-conducting joint. The net results are changes in the SNRM graph such as you have shown, above.
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"The reply I received explained that during the day, for most people, 6dB is normal, but (it wasn't said when) BT have apparently introduced a new normal daytime standard of 3 dB (for good connections). The thinking behind this is that it gives a little more connection speed. Apparently, due to the fact that some lines are unable to maintain the 3 dB, large numbers of errors are sometimes produced during the night, which has the effect of reducing the throughput speed. The possibility exists therefore that such large error-producing lines need to revert back to the previous norm of 6 dB."
Sometimes my speed is dropped overnight due to slowly failing S/N, (when the system is not in use anyway grrr !) , and it doesn't recover by itself anything like as fast next morning when the S/N improves. Me doing a quick reset is quicker. This sounds like a potentially good idea to me.
BUT as your problem is a bad line, it doesn't seem very relevant to you until the bad joint is fixed.
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Good evening one and all. I've not been in touch for quite a long time, but I just thought to update you on an interesting development within the last couple of days regarding my upload problem.
A Beattie Mod rang me regarding an e-mail issue I raised with them, and, to be fair, he was quite helpful. While I was speaking with him I mentioned the upload issue, and he suggested removing the cap that another Mod had put in place. We agreed that I would monitor the situation and get in touch again should that prove necessary. Well, when I logged on this morning I was delighted to see that in theory my upload speed was back to what I thought I should be getting on adsl2. The max attainable was showing as 1,000 Kbps, although the actual throughput when I actually uploaded an audio file was quite naturally somewhat less. Nevertheless I was well pleased.
I activated DSLstats and started recording - you're probably there before me, but later on in the morning when I made a couple of phone calls there was a massive spike on the upload line at around 11.13am (see 1st image attached - use slide bar to view relevant part). Immediately after the call the upload SNRM had gone from around 5.9 dBs right up to around 18 dB where it has remained, more or less since then.
This afternoon my wife made another call, again there was a further recorded spike, downwards this time, to around 8 dB. However, as soon as the phone call finished the upload SNRM went back up to around 18 dB (see 2nd attached image).
The current upload line rate is 370 Kbps. So, I'm just about back to where I was before the Mod suggested removing the cap.
He said that he would ring me tomorrow, it promises to be an interesting call.
Regards,
Alan
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That's the classic symptom of a high resistance line fault. If it's repeatable it should be simple enough to diagnose.
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Well, well, well! Today I had a visit from a really helpful Openreach engineer. He was a young man, only having been in the job for two years, but I take my hat off to him. I had fully explained my problem to him, plus commenting that it had been suggested to me that my 'issue' was very likely the consequence of a High Resistance line fault. Other engineers haven't agreed, but this one listened! I also showed him the DSLstats snapshots (thanks Eric). After his various tests he finally agreed that there was a HR fault on the line.
He went away for a little while, but commented on his return that he had traced the fault 'back to the exchange', which presumably means that it was somewhere between the exchange and the street cabinet. He further added that he had put me on another line, and lo and verily behold although my download speed is very slightly down to it's current speed of 3707 Kbps, the upload speed has risen dramatically to 876 Kbps (from the 147 Kbps it was first thing this morning).
Before I finally cry problem solved, I will monitor the situation for the next couple of days, but with fibre due to be activated on my line on Wednesday at least I do have the comfort in knowing that the HR fault was 'before' the street cabinet, so any issue should be solved anyway.
What can I say to all you good folk? I am so pleased and thankful to all of you who took an interest in what for me was a really taxing problem. The breakthrough is entirely down to your very helpful and knowledgeable advice, without which I wouldn't have been able to point the engineer towards where the problem might lie. Many, many thanks :thumbs:
Regards,
OT
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Thank you for sharing the good news. :thumbs:
As you have said, it does appear that the fault was in the E-side (between the PCP and the exchange). To have an upstream speed of around 850 - 900 kbps is what I would expect. (Concerning the abbreviation for the kilo- prefix in SI units. It is, actually, lower case "k". Why? Because the unit of temperature, Kelvin, uses upper case!)
Hoping all goes well on Wednesday. :fingers: