Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 05:42:59 PM

Title: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 05:42:59 PM

I really dont understand whats happening here.

I can get 4.5mb maximum in my area.

My modem syncs at a downstream connection rate of around 4500kbps, but alot of the time disconnects once a day and this changes slightly.

However, in speed tests and on downloads I achieve a maximum of 380kb/s.

I am connected via a wireless adapter. I use a Netgear DG834G and a Netgear WG111 Adapter.

FIRSTLY, Is 380kb/s correct for a modem syncing at 4500kbps?

ALSO, I plugged my modem into the test socket behind the BT faceplate, and my modem syncs at a massive 5600kbps, then drops half an hr later to 5215kbps. The wires - 2, 3, and 5 are connected behind the faceplate, however, the ring wire 3 wont make a difference while connected to the test socket right?

Do you think I should forget wireless and go via ethernet instead? To do this would mean having the router plugged into the upstairs phone socket.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: b4dger on January 08, 2008, 06:16:29 PM

You need to post your line stats: sync / attenuation / snr

Sounds like your internal wiring is affecting your connection. I would remove the ring wire.
If I understand you correctly you're asking why your sync changed (for the worse) when you are connected to the test socket? This could be for a number of reasons - fault on the line, dodgy router, low snrm etc.

Where are you performing the speed tests?
Have you tried speedtester.bt.com to see what that reports and what your current IP Profile is?
If you are losing connection every day then that wont be helping your profile...

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 06:19:06 PM

I just removed it from the test socket, put faceplate back on, and now my router syncs back at around 4500.

If I remove the ringwire, my phone may not ring then depending on whether my filters have the technology though right? If they are cheapy filters, my phone wont ring, and i cant take that risk.

Stats are:

ADSL Link                   Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    4480 kbps        448 kbps
Line Attenuation              49 db     14.5 db
Noise Margin                         3 db        19 db

DownStream Connection Speed     4480 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed    448 kbps
VPI    0
VCI    38

My main point is why i get higher sync speeds when plugged into the test socket, and also, is 380kb/s max download speed correct for a 4500 sync speed or am i losing lots of potensial speed because im wireless?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: b4dger on January 08, 2008, 06:33:59 PM

There's not a lot of risk! Carefully remove the ring wire and then test your phone!
Either call yourself on a mobile or get a friend to call...

You'll have to have pretty old phones for them not to ring.

Your internal wiring is definitely slowing down your connection.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 06:40:45 PM

i have a digital cordless phone, its not an old one, so if i remove this ring wire, my phone will still ring?

I heard that if you have cheap filters, then your phone may still not ring because the filters done have the technology to make your phone ring...? Am I wrong?

I have just put faceplate back on and reconnected the phone and modem back to phone socket, and sync rate now fallen back to 4500.

Saying that, should a sync rate of 4500kbps give me more than 380kb/s download? If so, then it cant be my phone wiring because the router connects at 4500, the speed from router to pc is nothing to do with internal wiring.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 08, 2008, 06:51:47 PM

Just to be clear, you're not mixing up your units are you? You're syncing at 4500 kiloBITS per second, but could it be that your download speed is 380 kiloBYTES per second?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

well on my router settings it says DOWNSTREAM RATE 4500KBPS

on utorrent, and other downloads, i get a maximum of 380kb/s

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 08, 2008, 07:37:07 PM

Could you just humour me and try this test: http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/

Sorry to be a bit pedantic about this, but I want to be sure that we're speaking the same language. Torrent speeds are commonly specified as kiloBYTES per second, not kiloBITS.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: mr_chris on January 08, 2008, 07:42:05 PM

I'm afraid that makes no sense jaydog! Bits have a lower case b. Bytes are upper case B. 8 bits = 1 Byte.

So if the sync is 4500kbps and you are getting 380KB/sec then yes, this is fine. You are not losing any speed by being wireless.. wireless should be faster than your broadband anyway!

As regards your problem relating to sync rate, there has been some good advice in this thread. There's something in your internal wiring causing the speed variation.

Are you sure everything is filtered properly? Depending how your extensions are wired into the NTE5, they may or may not be filtered.

Try unplugging the ring wire first. But instead of asking whether your phones will stop ringing if you remove the ringwire (we don't know for sure, but we think it will be ok), why don't you try it... you can always put it back if you have problems.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 08:06:42 PM

Ok, my downstream rate on my router is 4500kbps

utorrent's fastest speed is 380kB/s

Does this make sense now? And I was told that you divide your downstream rate by 8 and this gives you what your maximum download speed should be - which doesnt match with what I get on utorrent - and I know what your going to say that u cant reply on p2p to give you fastest speeds, but I can from what I use as I have always got my maximum and always stays around 380kB/s

I cant just put the ring wire back if it then stops my phone ringing, you need a special tool to put the ringwire back and I havent got the time to go searching for a tool to sort it out afterwards.

Ive now gone and put the router back behind the faceplate in the test socket and only syncing at 4800 so not a drastic change from when its normally in the faceplate. Its just totally random what it initially syncs at when you reboot the router, but it sync'd at 5600, then dropped to 5200 - and itd probably keep dropping.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 08, 2008, 10:39:13 PM

Thanks for clarifying what you're actually getting. With a downstream connection speed of 4500 kbps your IP profile will be 3500 kbps, and that is the limit of your download speed. So an actual download speed using utorrent of 380 kBps (kilobytes per second) is about the level you would expect.

If you look at http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm and particularly the chart at the bottom of the page, you'll see how the IP profile relates to the connection speed. You'll see that, if you could increase your connection speed by just a small amount (i.e. to over 4544 kbps) your IP profile will rise to 4000 kbps. Disconnecting the ring wire is quite likely to make that difference.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: kitz on January 08, 2008, 10:40:16 PM

Sounds about rightish
380 KB/Sec = 3040 kbps (380 x 8 )

Remember you will never get the full speed that you sync to the exchange at because of such things as TCP/ATM overheads.
Then you also need to bear in mind any variations in your IP profile (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm) if you are on a non-LLU connection.

AS roseway has already pointed out - if you do a speedtest at the bbmax link he provided it will show you your throughput speed in kbps.

You may also want to read this - adsl speeds (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/speeds2.htm)

----
[edit]
Mine and roseways posts crossed.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 11:30:43 PM

ok but how do i disconnect the orange wire as the screw just wont turn!

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 08, 2008, 11:51:27 PM

im tryin to do this bt speedtester thing, i enter my number, then it asks for login details - so i type in my internet logon which is ******@aol.com and i get this:

System Error Image not loaded

The login name entered on this tool doesnt match that discovered by querying the network for your domain name. Please check your telephone number (or user name) and try again. If problem persists please contact your CP.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Astral on January 08, 2008, 11:54:07 PM

Just chop the wire, you won't be needing it.

BT speedtester is notoriously fickle. Try again tomorrow.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 01:02:46 AM

no chance, i wanna take it out normally.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Astral on January 09, 2008, 01:08:01 AM

Get a bigger screwdriver. ;)

More seriously, if you cut it off right next to the screw you will still have enough slack to reconnect it in the extremely unlikely event that cutting it doesn't improve matters.

Feel the fear and do it anyway!!!

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 09, 2008, 07:16:04 AM

Are you sure it's a screw? It's usually an IDC connector (a tiny fork-shaped connector which the wire is pushed into using a special tool). With an IDC connector you can just pull the wire out and tuck it away where it won't touch other connectors.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: graevine1 on January 09, 2008, 10:50:38 AM

There was a period of supply where BT did source screw terminal variety.
We did a trial in research branch but I believe it was determined that the IDC connector won the day over the time to make each connection etc, the old rule applied whereby the accountants won again without consideration for joint longevity etc. Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 11:14:21 AM

sorry, its not a screw its something thats holding down the wire.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 11:49:24 AM

i have just plugged the adsl filter into the test socket at the back again and im now syncing at 5700 wheres its usually around 4600. This is without the extension splitter and without sky plugged in.

The only things that are plugged into the test socket right now are a filter, with my home phone and adsl attatched to filter.

i know alot of you say the problem may be the ring wire, but it is possible it could be the faceplate itself? im just really worried i will rip the ring wire out, and then my phone wont ring! plus, i have no idea how to remove the ring wire as its a weird connector thats pushing the wire down!

is it safe to have the faceplate off the socket for a few days to see if my ip profile is reset and i see faster speeds?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 09, 2008, 12:09:00 PM

I can understand your worry of course. It's safe enough to have the faceplate off the socket for some time, but then your phone certainly won't ring because the extensions won't be connected.

The ideal solution would be to replace the faceplate with a filtered one like This (http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16134&cat=262&page=1) or This (http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php) but if you're not comfortable with doing the wiring then you probably don't want to go down that route. Unless perhaps you know a friendly electrician who would do it as a favour in return for a pint. :)

To be honest, the risk of losing your telephone ring is absolutely tiny unless you have some quite old phones. All modern electronic phones have their own ring generating circuitry and don't use the third wire anyway, and the majority of ADSL filters have a built-in ring capacitor and so don't connect to the third wire either. You could check it out by plugging a phone into the test socket and ringing your number from a mobile or get someone else to ring you. If it rings then you can snip the ring wire with confidence.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 12:14:32 PM

oh yeah good point!
i have the filter plugged into the test socket as we speak, with my phone and adsl plugged into the filter. my sync rate is very high at 5790 and my phone still rings.

i dont wanna snip the ring wire because i may get electricuted, and also part of the orange wire will still be plugged into the connection.

also, wont the ring wire still act as an antenna even if its unplugged, because the wire itself is still there behind the socket....

Also, how should i have this set up normally? I have sky telephone cable too to think about. How I usually have this connected is by:

plugging a filter in main socket, then an extension splitter into the filter, then home phone and sky plugged into the splitter, then adsl in the filter. Is this too much? Do I need more filters in this connection?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 12:26:28 PM

also forgot to mention, about 8mths ago, i used to get sync rates of around 5500, and then all of a sudden it stopped syncing that high - this is why i dont think its the ring wire and that it may be the faceplate itself??

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: kitz on January 09, 2008, 01:35:17 PM

Dont adsl filters have their own capacitor in anyhow?
Therefore if the ring wire is removed and the phone is an older type then utilisation of an adsl filter will negate this.

I know a couple of years ago when I was setting up someones PC (dial up) which had a dodgy extension cable ..  the use of an adsl filter sorted the problem - even though the house didnt have dsl.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 01:39:34 PM

ok, all ring wires in house removed! phone rings. adsl on.

the first time i turned my router on i got a sync rate of 4600 - so not much change, however this is with the extension splitter plugged into the phone socket first.

when i changed it round to how i usually have it - filter in phone socket first, then splitter into filter with then home phone and sky in the splitter, i now have a sync rate of 5500.

so the ring wire has definatly made a difference - HOWEVER, it all depends if it hangs on to this sync rate fo rlong enough - it dropped yesterday when placed in the test socket - it was 5790, then it dropped to 5200. so time will tell i guess, but iv done everything i should have.

with me disconnecting and reconnecting so much today, is this ok or should i leave router off for a few hours then allow a fresh resync?

and finally, is my set up correct and optimized - i.e. how my filter/splitter is and the way round it is? or do i need 2 filters from the splitter - one for home phone and adsl, and another filter for sky?
thanks

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 09, 2008, 04:26:13 PM

I should leave the router on now, rather than force another disconnection by switching it off. It may well resync to a lower speed in the evening, but it still ought to be higher than it was before, which will push you up a notch in the IP profile.

Well done for plucking up the courage by the way. :)

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 09, 2008, 10:04:06 PM

hi, yeah its dropped from 5700, all the way down to 4800 - which is what it was before!

how can i get it to stick at the higher sync so that in a few days i get a higher speed? is there a way to do this as the previous poster said that it may drop because of me disconnecting alot today.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 10, 2008, 07:20:10 AM

Frequent disconnections can indirectly reduce the connection speed because the DLM process may decide that the line is unstable, and increase the target noise margin to stabilise it. This could have happened in your case, but in any event, if you're now connecting at 4800 kbps then you seem to have achieved your initial objective to go up a step in IP profile - it should rise to 4000 kbps in a couple of days or so.

If you want to try to go further than this, then a filtered faceplate would be the way to go.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: farmergiles on January 10, 2008, 10:21:17 AM

When I use BT Speedtester I have to use IE and not Firefox. It doesn't work properly it says something about system error.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 11:00:01 AM

well, the good news is, i did a reset of the router last night and i sync'd at 5128. 12 hours later, its still at the same sync rate, and due to this new Adaptive Max Logic (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm), i am already seeing vast improvement! My download speeds have gone from 385kB/s max, to 505kB/s max.

Apparently according to kitz's site, this adaptive max logic means that you see speed differences more or less immediatly depending on how higher your sync rate has increased.

The only thing is, will i lose this sync rate once we ge to this evening as alot of people report this and even I have seen this - how do I avoid this? Or sort it?

Also, is my connection set up correctly with MASTER SOCKET > FILTER > then a splitter in the filter to allow sky and home phone, and then adsl in filter.
Is one filter enough, and is this all the right way round?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Azzaka on January 10, 2008, 11:02:50 AM

Test Socket ---> Filter --> Adapter --> Sky Box.

This is the best setup.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: mr_chris on January 10, 2008, 11:32:07 AM

Quote from: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 11:00:01 AM

Also, is my connection set up correctly with MASTER SOCKET > FILTER > then a splitter in the filter to allow sky and home phone, and then adsl in filter.
Is one filter enough, and is this all the right way round?

Yep, that looks right to me :)

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 11:37:38 AM

Quote from: Azzaka on January 10, 2008, 11:02:50 AM

Test Socket ---> Filter --> Adapter --> Sky Box.

This is the best setup.

lol test socket? my main socket is just as good now as i removed the ring wire.
so i only need one filter then? and the sky box and home phone can be plugged into the splitter which is connected into the filter?

some people were saying the splitter had to go into the master socket before the filter.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: mr_chris on January 10, 2008, 12:16:22 PM

Quote from: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 11:37:38 AM

some people were saying the splitter had to go into the master socket before the filter.

It all depends on your setup and how far you have to carry the ADSL signal away from the master socket. As soon as you put a filter in, you cut off the ADSL signal from travelling any further down the 'chain' of phone wiring.

So if you need the router in a different room to the master socket, for example, you need to do this because you need to carry the ADSL signal to the other room:

Master --- Splitter --- (different room) --- Filter
              |                              |    |
              |                              |    |
            Filter                       Router  Phone
              |
              |
            Phone

But if you can have your router by your master socket, you can do what you've done i.e.

Master --- Filter
           |    |      ---- Phone
           |    |     /
       Router  Splitter
                      \
                       ---- Sky Box

Hope this helps :)

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 12:21:21 PM

yeh router is in same room as master socket.

the router is next to the tv, ps2, dvd player and sky box, and home phone - is this ok or could this be why i get disconnected sometimes and lower sync rates?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: mr_chris on January 10, 2008, 12:24:27 PM

It certainly won't be helping matters if you've got problems anyway - can you try and move it as far away as possible and see if you get any more stability from it?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 12:46:50 PM

well i didnt thinkit was a great idea to place the router in the socket upstairs? i thought it was best to go from the main socket.

the phone socket is directly behind all my electrical equipment too.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: mr_chris on January 10, 2008, 01:37:40 PM

Oh yeah, you do right to leave it in the main socket. Sorry I didn't perhaps make myself clearer - I mean if you can move it so that it's as far away as possible... within the constraints of the length of the wires - sometimes even moving a little bit could be the difference between knocking your DSL out and leaving it intact.

It'll probably make no difference, but it's worth a shot?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: b4dger on January 10, 2008, 06:03:14 PM

Glad you managed to remove the 'ring wire' without electrocuting yourself  :'(
If everything is normally wired then you would be removing the ring wire from the NTE5 faceplate - this means you have disconnected your internal wiring as you do this so is dead(sic) safe!

I was a bit worried when you said "RIP IT OUT" - you could always have gently disconnected it  :police:
The phone system is only 50v and only when the phone rings, so there was little 'risk'...

Filters:
Apart from your ADSL router EVERYTHING connected to you phone system MUST be via a filter - do that and you can't go wrong.

Let us know how you get on overnight/during the evening.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 06:34:07 PM

ok sync has fallen from 5128 to 4928 as expected this evening.

it happens every evening. which isnt great as now my ip profile will drop hence lower speeds - and the ip profile gets updated much quickly now so you see the lower/higher speeds within a few hrs of the router having sync'd again.

im already now getting slower speeds at 385kB/s again when before I was achieving a massive 500kB/s download when my router had sync'd at 5128.

i need to find a way to stop losing the sync.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Astral on January 10, 2008, 06:36:26 PM

Quote

The phone system is only 50v and only when the phone rings, so there was little 'risk'...

Phone system is 50V DC but the ringing current is* about 90V AC. You can only feel the ringing current as a bit of a tingle. You can't feel the 50V unless you use you tongue. :P

*Well it certainly was when I was a telephone engineer although that was a very long time ago.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 06:41:35 PM

download speed increased slightly to 425kB/s but nothing like the 500kB/s i was getting earlier today, plus router is still at the lower sync of 4928, wheres earlier it was 5128


why am i losing sync every evening?! and how can i prevent this?! i thought maybe it was something to do with the sky box connected to the phone line?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: soms on January 10, 2008, 08:02:30 PM

On these forums electrical equipment and street lighting which create EMI is often blamed for a drop in SNR in the evenings which can cause a resync depending on your equipment. If it happens every evening it might be something static or routine being operated in your area.

Quote

hone system is 50V DC but the ringing current is* about 90V AC. You can only feel the ringing current as a bit of a tingle. You can't feel the 50V unless you use you tongue

That is still the same however I thought ringing was 75V?
Perhaps you were used to conducting electricity, I find the odd time we did internal shifts and came to encounter even 50V I felt it.
I feel a little sorry though for the CSEs' who touch the 100V ISDN wires whilst trying to cable it up.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Astral on January 10, 2008, 08:10:36 PM

Quote

Perhaps you were used to conducting electricity

Oh, I was a world authority on conducting electricity; I got an 11,000 volt shock when I was six!

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 08:15:23 PM

ok, so should i just reset my router every time i go to bed at night so that the previous day has a higher sync, and just deal with a lower sync in the evenings?

this is effecting my speed by alot - its a difference of 100kB/s download speed!

is there anything i can do? its always in the evening.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Astral on January 10, 2008, 08:20:57 PM

I think it is more likely to be contention, which you can do nothing about, that is causing most of your evening drop in speed. I sync at full rate and I am only 600 metres from the exchange but my download was down to 1.5 meg last night, and I'm (allegedly) on 20:1 contention ratio business service.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 08:32:31 PM

ok, so should i just reset my router each night so i can then have the higher sync each day? or is it not advised to keep resetting the ip profile?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: Astral on January 10, 2008, 08:36:52 PM

Well you'll definitely save some electricity which is good and if you get a higher sync for at least part of the day you're in a win-win situation. :)

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 09:25:32 PM

so this wont do any harm then? switchingmy router off, then on again every night?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: b4dger on January 11, 2008, 09:58:45 AM

Quote from: jaydog on January 10, 2008, 09:25:32 PM

so this wont do any harm then? switchingmy router off, then on again every night?

No it doesn't do any harm. The exchange will only get 'upset' if you reconnect many times in an hour, not once or twice a day.

I would use RouterStats to monitor your SNRM and see if this is going too low in the evening and dropping sync.
I moved from a Netgear like you, to a Speedtouch 585v6 which sorted everything for me.
My experience (with RouterStats graphs showing the difference between routers): www.hmmm.ip3.co.uk/adsl-snr

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 11:22:04 AM

i can see aol used to, or now do give them away.
my router was from aol for free, but i thought netgear dg834g was a really good one?

iv always got an snr of around 4dB all through the day, so its low in general. how can i increase this? is there a way?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 11:28:20 AM

my router is still holding on from its re-sync yesterday evening at 4928, whats weird is im still getting the faster download speeds of 500kB/s which I actually shouldnt be doing with this sync rate, right?

im gonna leave it at this sync. I was getting the same download speed when it was in the 5200 figures anyway. i do however need to find a way to try and increase my snr and stop losing sync.

removing the ring wire has helped though, 100kB/s more in download speed, however not much in sync rate. Strange. By the way, I dont use the AOL software.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: b4dger on January 11, 2008, 11:51:12 AM

Quote from: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 11:28:20 AM

...removing the ring wire has helped though...

Glad I could help  ::)    Bit like pulling teeth  ;)

Your IP profile can take a few days (often 3ish) to update - so when you sync above 5120kbps you wont immediately go to a 4500 profile.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 12:36:29 PM

it doesnt take that long now i believe due to Adaptive Max Logic - which means ip profile can increase within a few hrs.
my speed has dropped now anyway.

is there a way to improve snr then? mines around 4dB hence why it loses connection in evening. If i can increase snr then maybe i can hold on.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 01:54:03 PM

ok have just reset router and we are back up to a sync rate of 5400! it wont hold onto it though. is this something im just going to have to live with?

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: b4dger on January 11, 2008, 01:59:17 PM

Quote from: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 12:36:29 PM

it doesnt take that long now i believe due to Adaptive Max Logic - which means ip profile can increase within a few hrs.

The new logic is percentage based so works quicker for large changes but going from one profile to the next still usually takes a few days.

Quote from: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 12:36:29 PM

is there a way to improve snr then? mines around 4dB hence why it loses connection in evening. If i can increase snr then maybe i can hold on.

Once you've optimised your internal wiring and ensured nothing in your home is causing interference the next step is to look at your router. As I mentioned before if you monitor your SNRM using an application like RouterStats it will show you what's going on. Here's my experience (with RouterStats graphs showing the difference between routers): www.hmmm.ip3.co.uk/adsl-snr

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 02:41:42 PM

ok, i will monitor from now until tonight and then post a screenshot, maybe this will help?
right now, my snr is steadily at 6dB but keeps dropping to 2dB then back up to 6dB

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: kitz on January 11, 2008, 03:46:51 PM

It is fairly normally for all lines to fluctuate during the evening.  This is when SNR is most likely to be at its highest due to more people being at home, more electrical stuff being switched on.. or even just crosstalk on the lines since more lines are likely to be in use.

If you are on a long line, then unfortunately it is a common feature that if you sync up in the early part of the day at a high speed, then come the evening time then the line will drop and have to re-negotiate. :/

Each time a line is dropped and re-negotiated at a lower speed, then this is recorded by the DLM / RAMBO  (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm)

In cases such as this, then the constant renegotiation of sync speed can cause the DLM process to think that perhaps you need a higher target SNR.  Once the higher target SNR profile has been applied then that is something that is much harder to get rid of and will affect the maximum speed at which you can connect in the future.

As an example Im on a very short line - but even my SNR margin fluctuates depending on whats going on around.

Monitoring the SNR as you say is perhaps the best way to see what is going on, and perhaps help us see if the amount of decrease is acceptable.  Its probably best doing this not only in the day but also the evening.

In some cases it is best to leave the router switched on and let it find its own level.  Although the router has its own power supply, processor etc.. the one thing that it cant remember across a reboot is the best level for the line which it was previously sync'd at.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 04:11:24 PM

i see what you mean now. i have monitored this before. it stays for the majority of the day at 6dB, occasionally dropping to 2, then around 6pm, it disconnects and my sync goes down.

most people have a much higher snr rate.

Here are my stats as we speak. I rebooted the router this morning:

ADSL Link                           Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed                   5408 kbps    448 kbps
Line Attenuation                              49 db    14.5 db
Noise Margin                                          4 db        20 db

DownStream Connection Speed     5408 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed       448 kbps

What does this tell you? I can guarantee that by 8pm tonight, my sync will be under 5000

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: roseway on January 11, 2008, 04:38:04 PM

Those are pretty normal looking figures. You've got a rather long line to the exchange (49 dB attenuation) and a connection speed of 5000 kbps is about as much as you can hope for. The noise margin is not unusual either - 6 dB is the default starting point, after which it will drift up and down depending on interference conditions. As Kitz said, if you leave your router switched on it will find its own level and hopefully then will be stable.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 04:58:08 PM

its always switched on as it is.

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: mr_chris on January 11, 2008, 05:20:30 PM

Leaving it switched on, means leaving it on and not resetting it every time you want a faster sync speed.

Like it or not, some lines, especially longer ones, are subject to interference, which gets worse in the evenings. There isn't a great deal you can do about this, if you've checked everything in your home, which it seems that you have.

As more people get faster broadband connections on your exchange, increased crosstalk (essentially the signal leaking from one phone line onto another one) will unfortunately interfere with your own connection. Something else along the long path of your line may have recently started to cause additional interference. Either way, I don't think you're going to be able to do anything about it.

You are still getting a good speed for your attenuation, as Eric has said.

So basically you really have two choices:

1. Leave the router alone, don't keep resetting it. It will settle at a certain speed and stay there.
  Pros: Connection stability. Don't have to keep messing with router.
  Cons: Not as quick during the day when it could be quicker.

2. Keep resetting the router during the day in order to sync higher.
  Pros: Faster speed during the day, assuming IP profile is updated accordingly.
  Cons: Line resyncs in evening as SNR drops below usable level. Also BT's DLM may interpret resetting router as a fault and bump up your SNR margin, causing you to get even lower sync speeds overall.

Hope that helps :)

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: shape on January 11, 2008, 05:47:03 PM

I think your doing well with your line length too.
I'm currently sync'd at around 3.5 meg on a 38db attenuation with 6db snrm.
Could be worse my friend ;-)

Title: Re: Problems with Sync and Speed
Post by: jaydog on January 11, 2008, 05:52:39 PM

true. il do what you guys say. not mess with my router or turn it off and on each day. I did this morning and im still syncing at 5408 so we will see what happens. if it drops i will have to live with it.

il give it a couple of days. if my router syncs and stays at 4900 like it did last night then thats good as thats a 4mb connections so il still get around 420kB/s download.

***Please see my new thread in this same section 'Ring Wire Removal Diary' for more info on my stats and what I have found out***