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Computers & Hardware => PC Hardware => Topic started by: kitz on January 16, 2014, 06:56:46 PM

Title: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on January 16, 2014, 06:56:46 PM
If it aint broken..... Dont fix it...  is todays lesson of the day.

Some of you may recall Ive been having horrendous problems with my PC over the past few months, but Ive not had time to look into it properly as I was beginning to fear a full o/s install was the way forward.

My problems started whilst I was messing around with NIC settings, and had decided I was going to upgrade the drivers, and whilst I was at it...  Id upgrade a pile of others.   
Shortly after that I started seeing blue screens/ black screens and all other sorts of weirdness.
Im posting here in case it helps anyone else in the same situation.


Logitech Setpoint 6.61.15 driver version 5.60.73


A little while ago I discovered that the Logitech Setpoint software was without doubt the cause of certain programs not opening automatically - such as Adobe CS, Excel, Word, Firefox when you clicked on any associated files, eventually causing a system hang.

If I uninstall setpoint then all programs will behave normally.  This can be repeated. Unfortunately though turning off setpoint means that my mouse and keyboard dont have full functionality.  A roll back to previous version doesn't seem to work, but having endlessly searched the internet, it seems that this problem crops up on various versions of setpoint for various people but no pattern has been found.

As a work around I currently have Setpoint disabled during start up, but once windows has fully loaded I can manually  start setpoint myself by creating a shortcut to my desktop.   I've no idea why the problem only exists if setpoint is loaded during windows startup.  Its almost like it causes windows to forget any file associations.


NVidia drivers 9.18.13.3182


Ohhhhhhh  dear where to start with this one.  The drivers release date is 11th of Nov, but by the 19th of Nov (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13283.0) I was in big trouble and its why I have hardly been able to use my PC since.   I'd looked for a solution at the time but couldnt find anything pointing to the drivers.   Not having had proper time to investigate again over the pre-mas and xmas period and a roll back not having worked, I was strongly suspecting it was either my graphics card or a drivers issue which would require me to completely start again with Windows.  Something I dreaded as I knew this is a mammouth task even with back-up.

Anyhows today I look again at this..  and theres now literally hundreds of people on various forums with an Nvidia GeForce GTX 500 series complaining of the blue and black screen issue.   Despite nvidia trying to look into this, there still isnt a permanent solution as various new releases havent solved the issue for many.  This is grim news and some users are even reporting total loss (fry) of the Graphics card due to the upgrade.  :'(

Ive completely uninstalled the drivers and found an old version 9.18.13.1106 dated 18/01/2013 which seem stable.  Touch wood, my PC has actually been on all day without any blue or black screening.  Im just hoping that Ive escaped any permanent damage.  Ive not dared to a stress test yet :/


Links to nvidia - theres now literally hundreds of posts about this - but these were the important ones for me.
Monitor display blank screen issue after driver update (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/648176/geforce-drivers/monitor-display-blank-screen-issue-after-driver-update/)
Official NVIDIA 331.82 WHQL Display Driver Feedback Thread (Released 11/19/13) (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/643065/official-nvidia-331-82-whql-display-driver-feedback-thread-released-11-19-13-/?offset=185)



------
Guess Im now going to be very dubious about doing any driver updates :(
 
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: broadstairs on January 16, 2014, 08:20:14 PM
After 35 or so years in IT before retiring I always subscribed to that old adage. Sadly Microsoft does not and that is why there are so many people employed fixing computers. I have an old W2K PC running my weather station which has not been updated for some years now and guess what it runs 24x7 flawlessly. If there is nothing wrong with your PC then there is no reason to update much of it, I agree that security fixes should be applied if it is used to access the internet but apart form that no reason at all to update anything, trouble is that M$ dont make it easy to do just that - its not in their interest.

Stuart
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 16, 2014, 08:53:36 PM
It's not just Microsoft, the Open Source community is little better.   See my thread from last year

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13231.0

As B'Cat points out in that thread, if I'd made a different choice of Linux distributions I may have fared better, and the 'culprit' was an add-on package rather than Linux (the kernel).   But somewhere down the line the same principle applies... unnecessary updates can lead to serious grief.   >:(
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on January 16, 2014, 09:20:47 PM
The nvidia one is pretty serious, it practically made my PC useless for the past few months.
One thing I note is with the update I did sometime in Nov it included additional bloatware and the WHQL garbage which tbh did nothing new aside from add stuff I wasnt interested in.   One of the other things that WHQL does is automatically update itself.   

I know that it was 9.18.13.3182 that Id installed as I still had the .exe  yet nvidia are admitting that the WHQL released 19/11/13 was when issued started.   If you look at my post on this forum, that was the exact date I got the blackscreen issue.  It had updated itself through various versions since and people even with the latest version are still seeing problems.

The version I now have installed has none of the WHQL crap and none of the added bloat, which is why I went to that particular one.    Im suspicious of it being something in the WHQL bloat that is causing the problem.   However its still early days and I hardly think one day of being able to use the PC puts me in the clear yet.    I wont be happy if it is the graphics card that is knacked.  Theres quite a lot of angry nvidia users on their forums.
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 16, 2014, 09:52:36 PM
The nvidia one is pretty serious, it practically made my PC useless for the past few months.

Point taken, it certainly 'outranks' any of my own niggles. :-[
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on January 16, 2014, 10:21:54 PM
oops...  noooo... wasnt making a point at you.   More at nvidia's lack of being able to find a proper resolution to the problem.
 
They obviously introduced something in that version that has affected one hell of a lot of people, yet weeks later and its still not fixed.  There was something in one of those threads where someone said something like "I never realised that a software issue could physically damage hardware".
 
How many less savy users would know that an auto-update has taken out their PC.   
They may just take in in for repair somewhere to be told it was the graphics card.  Theyd get billed for it and not even know that nvidia had a major problem with their drivers.  How many people would actually think to report it on the nvidia site?  Its likely that this is much bigger than those that have reported it.     Eventually you may get one of the big PC chain repair shops twigging that they seem to suddenly be having a problem with certain graphics cards, but atm its only really gamers and techies reporting it.  But then again, this card isnt likely to be used in a machine mass produced in the low cost market... so who knows. 

Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: NewtronStar on January 23, 2014, 12:46:29 AM
oops...  noooo... wasnt making a point at you.   More at nvidia's lack of being able to find a proper resolution to the problem.
 

I would like to add this point when upgrading the Nvidia Driver unless you have an Issue with a Program and or Game as you have pointed out if it's working don't update.

Now there is also a good reason for this as your Hardware gets older (GPU) Nvida seem to take out older Hardware support in the newer drivers and wham your old 7600gt go's belly up so the only way to make sure your Hardware is supported is to read the support guide to see which Cards have been supported and removed in the driver documentation  ;)
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on January 24, 2014, 07:29:57 PM
Well touch wood my system has been up for over a week without any black or blue screens so thats a remarkable difference and a first since last Nov.  :fingers:  Theres been one adobe update which required a reboot.  That went smoothly and straight back into windows - unlike previously when I would be presented with the dreaded black & very blank screens.

Im sticking with  9.18.13.1106 and none of the WHQL software bloat, which practically counts out the probability doing any future upgrades as they all seem to come bundled as WHQL now.

 
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: NewtronStar on February 01, 2014, 01:29:04 AM

Im sticking with  9.18.13.1106 and none of the WHQL software bloat, which practically counts out the probability doing any future upgrades as they all seem to come bundled as WHQL now.

well lets hope you can get back to WoW and yes you don't need that extra bundled carp that comes with WHQL software like 3D vision and the auto updater and so on just tick the driver only though I would still tick the PhysX if you have loads of CUDA cores.
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 01, 2014, 06:54:23 PM
Well since its now been 2 weeks without any blue screens or total black screens, then I think I can now firmly point the finger at the nVidia firmware.

Previously I couldnt go more than a few hours without a blue screen, or even worse it often wouldnt boot into anything other than black screens.

Quote
though I would still tick the PhysX if you have loads of CUDA cores.

Is this somewhere in the nVidia software?   I dont think I have anything installed now other than the basic driver and cant see where to check this.
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: NewtronStar on February 01, 2014, 07:59:53 PM
Well since its now been 2 weeks without any blue screens or total black screens, then I think I can now firmly point the finger at the nVidia firmware.

Previously I couldnt go more than a few hours without a blue screen, or even worse it often wouldnt boot into anything other than black screens.

Quote
though I would still tick the PhysX if you have loads of CUDA cores.

Is this somewhere in the nVidia software?   I dont think I have anything installed now other than the basic driver and cant see where to check this.

Hi Kitz just to make sure this was a driver issue, during the time of BSOD did you notice any screen artifacts random flashing pixels ?

Yes if you can right click on the screen this shows the Nvidia Control panel is installed & active and from there you can use the help -> and select system information look at the componets and look to see if NvCuda.Dll is intalled and PhysX.

and just for ref: I am using 8.17.13.3182 driver on a GT630 yes that card is lame but it works well on World of WarPlanes and others
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 01, 2014, 09:46:53 PM
I cant recall ever seeing any during the time of the BSODs,   far mor often than not I'd end up with 2 black screens.   

I would at times see weird artefacts though,  the cursor would be what usually went first and perhaps change to a block or other weird shape.  The PC would also become really slow and the 'block cursor' wouldnt respond or it would take an eon to move and if it did it was very slow.   I saw reports on their that several people suspected something which suggested it was using all their processing power and caused an overheat.   This isnt a low spec PC and I attempted a couple of times to check task manager, but things would be so unresponsive and slow that I never did get to see what was going on before it would crash completely.

I just had an idea and checked my system logs   I see lots of these, but theres so much garbage in there now with lots of red x's and yellow triangles its hard to make out anything useful.
None since I went back to the old drivers though.

Code: [Select]
The description for Event ID 3 from source NvStreamSvc cannot be found. Either the component that raises this event is not installed on your local computer or the installation is corrupted. You can install or repair the component on the local computer.

If the event originated on another computer, the display information had to be saved with the event.

The following information was included with the event:

NvStreamSvc
Stream service as user abnormally ended. Re-launching... [0]

Code: [Select]
The Plug and Play service entered the stopped state.
The NVIDIA Stereoscopic 3D Driver Service service entered the stopped state.

The NVIDIA Update Service Daemon service failed to start due to the following error:
The service did not start due to a logon failure.

Kernal Power
ACPI thermal zone ACPI\ThermalZone\TZ00 has been enumerated.             
_PSV = 0K             
_TC1 = 0             
_TC2 = 0             
_TSP = 0ms             
_AC0 = 358K             
_AC1 = 328K             
_AC2 = 273K             
_AC3 = 273K             
_AC4 = 273K             
_AC5 = 0K             
_AC6 = 0K             
_AC7 = 0K             
_AC8 = 0K             
_AC9 = 0K             
_CRT = 379K             
_HOT = 0K             
_PSL - see event data.



The description for Event ID 14 from source nvlddmkm cannot be found. Either the component that raises this event is not installed on your local computer or the installation is corrupted. You can install or repair the component on the local computer.

If the event originated on another computer, the display information had to be saved with the event.

The following information was included with the event:

\Device\Video5
!051d(2558)




The process Explorer.EXE has initiated the restart of computer I7 on behalf of user I7\kitz for the following reason: Other (Unplanned)
 Reason Code: 0x0
 Shutdown Type: restart
 Comment:



Wow...  in fact theres zillions of these...  no joke -  theres like a few hundred of them every second  :o

Code: [Select]
The description for Event ID 3 from source NvStreamSvc cannot be found. Either the component that raises this event is not installed on your local computer or the installation is corrupted. You can install or repair the component on the local computer.

If the event originated on another computer, the display information had to be saved with the event.

The following information was included with the event:

NvStreamSvc
Stream service as user abnormally ended. Re-launching... [0]
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 01, 2014, 10:08:05 PM

 if you can right click on the screen this shows the Nvidia Control panel is installed & active and from there you can use the help -> and select system information look at the componets and look to see if NvCuda.Dll is intalled and PhysX.


Thank you...

This is what I get.

Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: NewtronStar on February 02, 2014, 12:21:14 AM
Code: [Select]
[quote author=kitz link=topic=13449.msg254618#msg254618 date=1391291213]

The description for Event ID 3 from source NvStreamSvc cannot be found. Either the component that raises this event is not installed on your local computer or the installation is corrupted. You can install or repair the component on the local computer.

If the event originated on another computer, the display information had to be saved with the event.

The following information was included with the event:

NvStreamSvc
Stream service as user abnormally ended. Re-launching... [0]
[/quote]

That would suggest it's looking for a file that's either corrupt or is not installed but still the registry information still remains even if that file was removed.

So best solution is to remove all traces of Nvidia drivers and use a program called driver sweeper and only select Nvidia the run the process, then you can re-install the driver or use Nvidia WHQL and select the driver only and PhysX, also there is a setting on this page to perform a clean install (remove old nvidia programs & process's and Install it from fresh)

Also you must remember that the last working driver is held in the C:\Nvidia folder also you need to remove this folder after un-installing nvida drivers if you don't the system will reboot and re-install the last driver from that folder again (loop effect) :)
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 02, 2014, 05:01:38 PM
Quote
That would suggest it's looking for a file that's either corrupt or is not installed but still the registry information still remains even if that file was removed.

Thanks NS,   I no longer get those errors since I removed most of the bulk which came with the WHQL installation.
I believe  NvStreamSvc is a network service used to stream between your PC and the nVidia Shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Shield).   

For some obscure reason Nvidia in its wisdom, decided to enable it by default for all systems regardless or not if you have a shield.   
Obviously because I dont, it clogs up your PC & network attempting to communicate with a handheld device you dont have.   
It constantly accesses your network making numerous requests per minute .  Theres quite a lot of posts similar to this (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/573811/nvidia-streamer-service-may-be-freezing-your-pc/) and various complaints that its causing system crashes on PCs which arent connected to a Shield.


Ive already removed all the 3D nvidia program and its plugins, Virtual Audio program and Nvidia Experience.
These were all bulk that the WHQL installed without me knowing and all seem to relate to improving performance of the Shield.

 - 3D is of no use to me
 - The Virtual Audio installed more audio bulk and 4 HD sound drivers, which were a waste of time since I already happily use the VIA HD drivers for my sound card. Unfortunately the nvidia drivers automatically re-install themselves though :/
 - Nvidia Experience iirc was the one which did all the auto-updates and monitoring your system as well as the network/controls for the Shield.


After I removed the above, NvStreamSvc no longer runs,  Im not sure which of those 3 uninstalls removed it, but one of them did.
A quick check just now in Services and the only nvidia item I can see is for the display driver service which i think is to do with the nvidia CP.

Theres possibly even more unwanted garbage its installed that I will find at some point, its almost like nVidia took over and infected my PC  :D... but I think atm the only thing left is the drivers, the nvidia CP (which I need to run dual monitors) & PhysX

Quote
C:\Nvidia folder also you need to remove this folder after un-installing nvida drivers

Goes to check, this is possibly why the above mentioned nvidia sound drivers auto reinstall each time.   Thanks.
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 02, 2014, 05:18:14 PM
Quote
goes to check, this is possibly why the above mentioned nvidia sound drivers auto reinstall each time.


pft...   and there was me thinking Id got rid of the NV3DVision, GFExperience, HDAudio programs. 
Theres nothing installed under program files now, but in  C:\NVIDIA\DisplayDriver\331.82\Win8_WinVista_Win7_64\English its all still sat there probably waiting for me to update and auto reinstall again. 

Look at them all, sat there since 23/11/2013 which was the date of the update which screwed up my PC  :-\

Im not sure if I want to touch what Ive done nor mess with the graphics drivers now as it seems stable.   I wonder if I can just delete that folder..   going to try renaming it me thinks to see if it has any effect.
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: NewtronStar on February 02, 2014, 07:29:17 PM
Good Job and it reminds we why I left ATI 15 years ago because of the bloatware in there divers and it looks like Nvidia is going down that route  :( so it's best to select the custom install with WHQL and avoid the full installation.

EDIT: I would leave the folder alone for now until the next time you un-install & re-install the Nvidia Driver but this time remove that folder and that folder will be rebuilt but this time it only show the files you need.
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 02, 2014, 10:07:07 PM
>>  it looks like Nvidia is going down that route

It sure does, as has many other companies with their software.   Why they enable by default services for items that the majority wont have Ive no idea. 

Quote
EDIT: I would leave the folder alone for now until the next time you un-install & re-install the Nvidia Driver but this time remove that folder and that folder will be rebuilt but this time it only show the files you need.

Ive renamed the folder to nvidia_crap   :-X  So far it doesnt seem to have affected anything, but admittedly I havent had to reboot yet.   As far as I can see the parts I want are under program files/nvidia, and the junk is at the root of c:

I can easily put the name back if anything breaks. 
Judging by the state of their forums and the fact they still havent got to the bottom of the black screening, then I think I shall stick with these drivers for quite a while.   

Thank you for your input - appreciated :)

Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: NewtronStar on February 03, 2014, 12:50:09 AM
Now don't laugh I updated to Nvidia 332.21 at 11pm all goes well until I use the NV control panel to change resolution and guess what it doesn't work  :D :D :D i think the Nvidia drivers department is having a crisis, rolled back to 331.82 and all is well.

So Kitz your correct it was the driver thats at fault not your GPU card or PC, and I don't know how Nvidia coders get away with sloppy workmanship, will wait untill 333.29 comes out and see if they have fixed it  :-[
Title: Re: If it aint broken......
Post by: kitz on February 03, 2014, 09:08:29 AM
I'm not sure what's going on with their drivers right now lol.   From the forums it would appear that most of the problems were introduced with 331.82 onwards.    Not all were affected by that version.    I'm not sure what was going on with mne as it also did an auto update to a newer version somewhere before I realised it was the drivers.   

I suppose I could perhaps try 331.82 as standalone, because its also unclear whether it could have been some of the extra bulk installed with that version which caused mine.  The GeForce experience released at about the same time also seems to be causing issues.     :(