Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Chrysalis on January 08, 2014, 06:50:51 AM
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all sorts has been going wrong since I joined plusnet, this one seems coincidence tho.
DLM hit me a few hours ago this morning. The cause is evident on my tbb graph and confirmed by the hg612 stats logger graph. Had some crc errors around 5pm (snrm didnt budge tho).
Unlike last year I am getting FEC errors in the thousands rather than in double digits so I am not so confident of DLM reverting me assuming that burst of errors was a one off.
to those who got plusnet to do line checks did you just ask on the forums and they did it?
Also I may now downgrade my firmware soon given this firmware has higher error rates.
If after a week still interleaved I may have to plug the friztbox back in to revert DLM.
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no CRC errors at all but the FEC error rate shot up from 9.57am onwards today, the delta reported in ronski's app is hovering around 2000.
Reported fault to plusnet, will see what they say.
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Welcome to the Interleavers Club ;)
Has your Sync been affected by the DLM since moving to Interleaving ?
Have looked at your graphs and the errors are that excessive in the burst time frame, which makes me belive your line was just on the edge from moving away from fastpath.
as a comparison my Interleaving is at 599 and Fec's vary from 84 to 20000 still not as bad as 100000 per min I had last year.
Now the big question is how long before your moved back to fastpath, this could be weeks to months when looking at Ronski's Interleaving/Fastpath issue on the forums :-\
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I dont know if was on the edge, but the cause is that burst of errors around 5pm. Before 9.57am my FEC delta was arond 0-30. You can clearly see on my graphs exspecially this one the difference between my normal line behaviour and the fault, it was "on the edge" just slightly moving above a threshold.
Right now its back down to 0 delta. The source seems to have stopped again. total CRC remain 0 so FEC is doing its job at least.
Still no CRC errors at all.
DLM has affected my line in 2 ways really.
The sync has lost 5mbit of speed due to FEC overheads.
The increased latency is slowing down my ramp up speeds. (net less responsive browsing etc.)
Here is a 12h FEC graph. So you can see how it is before it started/stopped during the day today. A very clear difference. notice also whilst it was ongoing it seemed to be increasing intensity.
also plusnet support are a very high standard, the guy who rang me today has took ownership of the issue, when my voice transfers it will be escalated with more tests, we had a long conversation about it on a technical level, not dumbed down like BT support. I was open with my modem been unlocked etc. and he had no issue with that.
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Yes it looks like the higher errored seconds count for 2 hours has caused the DLM to adjust your line but still your FEC errors are low compared to my own.
It all looks quiet again and are errored seconds back to normal again ? it suggests to me your DLM is to sensitive to small bursts of errors.
Ill stick my neck out and say if you have no more bursts of errors in 7 days then the DLM will return your Fastpath on day 14 :fingers:
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yeah DLM will react if a short burst of errors its punishing :(
however since the problem was back today I obviously need to resolve that before worrying about DLM, it lasted for 6 hours today.
yes right now since I went back to my pc earlier the FEC is quiet, delta is 0 everytime I look at it. But I expect this problem is probably going to be back tommorow.
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My delta at work was regularly half million FECs a minute, although recently it has been dropping , and is now around 150,000 a minute.
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yeah DLM will react if a short burst of errors its punishing :(
however since the problem was back today I obviously need to resolve that before worrying about DLM, it lasted for 6 hours today.
yes right now since I went back to my pc earlier the FEC is quiet, delta is 0 everytime I look at it. But I expect this problem is probably going to be back tommorow.
I did notice in both graphs 7th and 8th of January you posted the errors end at 15:45 and 16:30 so thats something to look into.
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yeah DLM will react if a short burst of errors its punishing :(
however since the problem was back today I obviously need to resolve that before worrying about DLM, it lasted for 6 hours today.
yes right now since I went back to my pc earlier the FEC is quiet, delta is 0 everytime I look at it. But I expect this problem is probably going to be back tommorow.
I did notice in both graphs 7th and 8th of January you posted the errors end at 15:45 and 16:30 so thats something to look into.
At this point I am assuming someone near my line got a new device and started using it late in the afternoon on tuesday and then used it again most of the day yesterday, it could be a business given its in working hours and on my road is lots of shops, and other businesses.
Plusnet are suggesting it may be a voltage issue on the line. But they cant run full tests until voice is transferred over.
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problem wasnt here today, today's data.
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problem wasnt here today, today's data.
Thats good news Chrysalis, would like to see your DS Error Seconds Graph for the same time frame just to make sure your line has settled down :-\
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I have had total of 2 ES since I was interleaved both from the 9th. The FEC on the 8th didnt cause any ES.
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I have had total of 2 ES since I was interleaved both from the 9th. The FEC on the 8th didnt cause any ES.
Right the DLM should have restarted its error counter for your line on the the 9th of January and all being well you should see a result on the 24th of January at 3:48am as long as there are no more bursts of errors,
If it see those errors again before the 24th of January then your back to square one again :(
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Well I am hoping it will revert before 2 weeks thats a long wait.
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line resynced.
still interleaved same depth.
now appear to be banded to 40mbit down woooh.
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I now know the cause of the issues on 7th 8th jan.
Today was some openreach vans doing work near the cabinet across road from me (not my cabinet).
I asked them if they did work on my actual cabinet and they said yes on 6-9 jan.
I asked what work they doing but they wouldnt tell me but I do at least now know the dates.
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I now know the cause of the issues on 7th 8th jan.
Today was some openreach vans doing work near the cabinet across road from me (not my cabinet).
I asked them if they did work on my actual cabinet and they said yes on 6-9 jan.
I asked what work they doing but they wouldnt tell me but I do at least now know the dates.
I don't know how you can build up the courage to walk up to an Openreach engineer working at the Cabs and ask them to divulge sensative information, always wanted to try that but was to conscious that the engineers would classify me as a Cab stalker :lol: i'll try it the next time I pass an ORE at my cab and stop the car and jump out and ask are you messin with my line :D
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Well I started off easy, I just asked if they working around different areas, they said yes, then I dug a bit further asking if they worked on my cabinet 2 weeks ago, and they gave me exact dates from a peice of paper. But when I got greedy asking what work they smiled and said cant tell me :)
There was also some of them working around the city centre area as well.
Incidently today is the 2 week point and sadly DLM still not relenting.
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My line went years without interleaving and then started getting bursts or sustained errors during the evening so it kicked in. Even after the errors stopped I experienced a period of it turning on and off, it would be on for roughly two months then off for two months. No idea why it kept doing that, resyncs were rare and the bursts of errors had dissapeared. Thankfully interleaving stays off these days, even after resyncs due to negative margin (sub 6dB).
I hate to say it but interleaving in my experience can stay on for several months for seemingly no reason. I did moan at support a few times so maybe something was found and put right but you may be in for the same experience. I feel your pain.
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yesterday I lost another 4mbit attainable (I guess another new line install) so the crosstalk also keeps increasing.
Plusnet have already told me they believe one engineer wont be enough.
Darren and yeah thanks it seems a bad situation, although plusnet at least for now are treating it as a fault but mainly because how low my sync speed is.
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Another update its good and bad news.
I am now back on fast path. It occured about 45 mins ago, so after 7am, not usual DLM time.
But my sync speed isnt great, currently 59995 appearing capped to maybe 60? as there is over 7db margin but the attainable isnt great I think with a 6 db margin I would maybe be at 62mbit which is 4 mbit below what I was when this saga started.
BT detected a "network fault" in my area and this is apparently going to be fixed very soon, without an engineer here at my property. At least the net is snappy again tho, glad to be of that aweful interleaving.
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Another update its good and bad news.
I am now back on fast path. It occured about 45 mins ago, so after 7am, not usual DLM time.
But my sync speed isnt great, currently 59995 appearing capped to maybe 60? as there is over 7db margin but the attainable isnt great I think with a 6 db margin I would maybe be at 62mbit which is 4 mbit below what I was when this saga started.
BT detected a "network fault" in my area and this is apparently going to be fixed very soon, without an engineer here at my property. At least the net is snappy again tho, glad to be of that aweful interleaving.
When I had a 'fault somewhere in BT's network', as stated by the automated diagnostic tool on BT's website, I assumed there would be no engineer turning up. Low and behold however, having had the fault occur on a Friday, and disappear by the evening (assuming it had been fixed and no longer an issue), the engineer turned up Monday morning around 8:30am (unplanned) when he first put on one of those medley tone things which made me jump lol (phone constantly ringing). Luckily I was in. He came to the door about 10 minutes later and said he's here to fix a fault with the line, I said to him the fault had gone, he said no it's still there. He was right though, he found a battery contact fault somewhere between the house and the PCP, spent hours here until he eventually swapped something round in the cabinet. Attainable rate improved as a result.
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I did say two weeks ;) see reply#12
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will be interleaved again tommorow.
only 200 crc errors yesterday.
only 20 for first 6 hours or so today.
But now is 7000+ registered, so been another burst of errors. DLM will panic and overeact, affect on my mine hasnt been noticed as I have been using the net and tbb graph no packet loss. But tommorow lag returns. :(
Plusnet will try to tell me its because interleaving is off, and they will try to sell to me that my bursts stopped the past 2 weeks because interleaving was on.
I am pretty sure I know the cause, water ingress on this occasion.
At 3pm was a very big storm, lots of hale, wind water.
Check the graph.
Result another 2+ weeks interleaving. Which gets turned on 12+ hours after the event.
Newtronstar I hope you agree now that been DLM'd for the best part of a month for 2 singular events is OTT.
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Your issue is probably different but my line has started showing similar spikes in crc. I had been limiting them with a speed cap of my own but today I let the modem sync normally - was fine all morning but was hit like yours in wind and rain with a CRC peak of 2500. I am fairly sure my "issue" is really interference from next doors fault see http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13420.30
Do you see up/down spikes in the snr at the same time?
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on fttc I have never seen snrm adjust with error spikes.
I dont know what caused my error bursts on the 7th and 8th other than the workers telling me they were working those dates near my cabinet, so they seemed a different cause.
But today was clearly in line with the storm.
The errors today were overall weaker and less than 2 weeks ago, only 10 SES and peaked at only 12 ES per minute vs 50 ES per minute for an hour 2 weeks ago, but I will be surprised if DLM ignores this. It seems hypersensitive. The storm was heavy but short, the errors were pretty much bang on in time with it. I know the time as the football started at 3pm right in the middle of it.
Rain has never affected my line before, seems a lot of 'firsts' happening since I signed up to plusnet but I got a feeling they going to try and tell me this is all normal for my line, its worth pointing out the open fault is not to do with the previous errors (plusnet tried to tell me to put up with DLM/interleaving) but is due to my low sync speed vs my estimate. I am curious if BT did 'start' work on this network fault, left something exposed as a result and hence what happened today.
More stormy weather is due tommorow as well.
My ticket with plusnet has been updated now with a less friendly more firm response as I do feel they have been too laid back so far. These guys supposedbly decent at handling faults and they havent even managed to book an appointment yet after 2 weeks.
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Newtronstar I hope you agree now that been DLM'd for the best part of a month for 2 singular events is OTT.
Oh yes I totally agree the DLM is way to sensitive and the 14 day wait is ridiculous and that's putting it mildly.
keep us posted and :fingers: you don't get moved back to smelly old interleave overnight.
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if I do, do you know if it treats a 2nd rapid occurance with a longer recovery time?
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ok so I didnt get interleaved, the issue on saturday was less severe than 2 weeks ago and it seems that was below the threshold. In addition this morning the 60mbit banding was removed, it will be interesting to see the affect on errors from 7.1db snrm down to 6.4db snrm. If we exclude the issue I had on saturday the crc error rate was low, I think I had 190 errors all day yesterday (vs 2000 last day before issues started). In 2 hours today with about 0.7db less snrm I have 30 crc errors. when considering each bit is worth 3db of snrm, I do wonder why a 6db margin is chosen instead of 7db as 7db allows 2 bits to be removed on a tone whilst still maintaining a positive snrm.
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Thats Good news ;D your SNRM of 6.4dB would be ok as long as it stays like that during the peak times what I have noticed my errors start ramping up when SNRM go's below 5.8dB in the evening and thats with an extra 1000kbps added to sync since the last HG612 flash 4 days ago
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looking like 400-500 errors for 24 hours, so about 400% increase for a drop from 7.1db to 6.4db. a 1/4 tho of what I had before the 7th so easily within thresholds.
BT have told plusnet they fixed the network fault, obviously I have bounced it back to plusnet given my sync speed is now lower and I have a new water ingress fault and plusnet stating they need to do a live chat with BT to book an engineer with me thinking why didnt they do this 2 weeks ago? dragging their feet.
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Considerably better results than me (in regards to errors) when I was on Fastpath with no sync cap in place. Just out of curiousity, is your DSLAM an ECI or Huawei?
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ECI
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Just having a shifty Chysalis it would appear the residential DLM has a 14 day recovery period on FTTC and Business FTTC has a 24 Hour recovery period if bursts of errors have been seen, so there you go the DLM can be configured if you have the extra wonka to spare.
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Just having a shifty Chysalis it would appear the residential DLM has a 14 day recovery period on FTTC and Business FTTC has a 24 Hour recovery period if bursts of errors have been seen, so there you go the DLM can be configured if you have the extra wonka to spare.
I'm on business FTTC yet I don't get this recovery time (I'm around 14 days as well). Odd.
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another line change today, this time an improvement so its now 1mbit below the attainable I had before the problems.
this has me now back on a snrm above 7db.
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This situation I give some sympathy to openreach engineers, I expect to help their diagnosis they should be attending a fault in a timely manner after the fault happens, yet plusnet are still delaying due to some kind of mismatch they say exists on BTw's db, claiming is absolutely no escalation/overide process.
The last 2 days the problem is past its worst meaning if an engineer were to attend now they may state I am too close to the estimate to be worth bothering with which makes me angry, but the line is still not stabilised, the snrm is jumping up and down between 6.4-7.3 db so attainable jumping between 62.4mbit and 65.5mbit like a switch is been flicked.
I find it very hard to believe that a organisation as big as BT would not have a overide system in place for booking engineers (as after all how was engineer dispatched for this "network fault". I feel this is just plusnet applying delaying tactics to avoid possible engineer fees and hoping its a DLM issue that recovers itself.
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Just having a shifty Chysalis it would appear the residential DLM has a 14 day recovery period on FTTC and Business FTTC has a 24 Hour recovery period if bursts of errors have been seen, so there you go the DLM can be configured if you have the extra wonka to spare.
I'm on business FTTC yet I don't get this recovery time (I'm around 14 days as well). Odd.
Cheers I must have pick that information up wrongly, what are the benefits from being on a Business line compared to residential as never used one.
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I think the benefits are as follows.
Higher priority on bandwidth. BT wholesale have a minimum speed thats expected under heavy congestionn, business lines have a higher minimum speed, 50% higher. They also have higher priority so eg. under light congestion they should be faster as well. However the reality is congestion is now uncommon on BT's 21CN network. Bear in mind I believe there is no priority system on openreach cabinet backhaul. Just for BTw.
The option of having higher priority fault resolution, I am not sure on this but I think there is effectively 3 grades. Residential, business, and business with a addon. I think residential lines cannot buy this addon. I am defenitly not sure on this tho, I have not googled to verify it.
Isp's themselves may add benefits, eg. plusnet have a dedicated business support team and business customers jump the call queues.
Business lines (isp side) usually allow commercial use whilst residential do not.
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Many thanks Chrysalis for the information, and I have never done any research into Business BB before, on a certain forum I said it was 14 days for the DLM to recover and the expert said no it's 24 hours as the OP is a business user so i left it like that :-\
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Many thanks Chrysalis for the information, and I have never done any research into Business BB before, on a certain forum I said it was 14 days for the DLM to recover and the expert said no it's 24 hours as the OP is a business user so i left it like that :-\
Phew, for a moment I thought someone had bodged my type of order up lol, as I'm still interleaved despite the minimal errors lol. I get higher priority traffic when congested (never seen this happen though) and a quicker repair time.
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by the way guys, my samknows data is very interesting during my interleaved period. will post screenshot soon.
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That is throughput speed data, isn't it?
I would be interesting to see the "Eagle" data for the corresponding period and to compare the line's relevant statistics.
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yep thats speedtest results to samknows. the throughput nosedived big time, the sync speed didnt get that low.
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I would be interesting to see the "Eagle" data for the corresponding period and to compare the line's relevant statistics.
Sorry, but this is all the throughput data I have since 1st January (via Speedtest.net):-
TEST_DATE TIME_ZONE DOWNLOAD LATENCY
MEGABITS MS
01/01/2014 07:28 GMT 17.00 21.00
02/01/2014 19:28 GMT 17.03 25.00
28/01/2014 10:25 GMT 16.59 28.00
29/01/2014 22:58 GMT 16.96 22.00
02/02/2014 13:07 GMT 16.98 10.00
02/02/2014 14:25 GMT 16.96 10.00
02/02/2014 16:44 GMT 16.96 26.00
03/02/2014 00:23 GMT 16.93 21.00
03/02/2014 00:25 GMT 19.75 24.00 (following a forced resync & router disconnect/reconnect)
Although latency is a shade high (I have seen it as low as 5MS when Interleaving was turned off), I have never suffered from reduced throughput speeds, even when my connection was able to sync at around 30 Mbps+
Througput has almost always been around 94% of IP Profile or higher.
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Oops . . . b*cat has caused a bit of confusion! :-[
My reference to "Eagle data" was meant to imply the the full load of statistics that could be prepared if Chrys had had HG612_stats (or whatever it is called) active for that period.
:paperbag:
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Although latency is a shade high (I have seen it as low as 5MS when Interleaving was turned off), I have never suffered from reduced throughput speeds, even when my connection was able to sync at around 30 Mbps+
would you be interested if I trade 10 Mbps of my thoughput for your 21-25MS it's a good deal but the 10 Mbps will have 35-38ms with an interleaving depth of 595 only one user it's a bargain :)
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the sync low point was 39.9mbit bcat. way above the low point of samknows tests.
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Hmm . . . So there was a infrastructure issue which, in turn (as to be expected), impacted upon the overall throughput. :(
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engineer appointment tommorow.
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engineer appointment tommorow.
Good luck. Hopefully you will have a visit by a person appropriate for the task.
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engineer appointment tommorow.
I don't see why you need a engineer appointment your fastpath is back your sync has returned just shy of 4 Mbps from what is was before am I missing something ? is this a freebe or will you be charged for this ?
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engineer appointment tommorow.
I don't see why you need a engineer appointment your fastpath is back your sync has returned just shy of 4 Mbps from what is was before am I missing something ? is this a freebe or will you be charged for this ?
a few things, all these just 3mbit, just 4mbit add up, currently over 40mbit combined, how much do i ignore? and below my estimated speed.
that water fault I assume still exists.
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looks like a no show anyway, was a morning appointment.
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Well.
2 guys have been now, they brushed me off right away with the speed vs estimated, I tried to push it and the guy was getting agressive so I dropped it, but I got them to test the line based on the water ingress and they have found a HR fault. But they gone now as they said they ran out of time, so someone else will come.
I think the water issue might be at the junction box as they looked for it (from the ground), and its hard to get to, so I dont think they even bothered to check that.
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I forgot about water ingress, sure by the time they get to use some kind of sealant you will be into march and the start of the drought season begins, and then the drop wires start to expand due to high temperatures in the summer, I'm amazed that broadband works ok for such changes of weather conditions year in and year out in the UK (so treat your Openreach Engineer like a drop wire give them a bit of slack) in hot or cold and wet days they are doing a excellent job to keep us connected :thumbs:
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in plusnets own words, I got a bad service.
the engineer couldnt wait to get out newtronstar and almost refused to come in, he seemed offended I wanted my estimated speed.
also it was supposed to be a morning appointment and they came mid afternoon :(
I guess tho the upside is they diagnosed something, so there is something for them to fix and I now know wont be charged for the visit as well.
I can understand an engineer trying to improve a line speed and failing saying he cant do anything to help, but this guy had that attitude before he even walked in the door. We even sort of argued, he said I had a "up to 72mbit service" I said I had a "up to 80mbit service with a estimated speed of 72mbit". I can be agressive myself to people but this guy made me seem like santa in comparison, he was very agressive, The 2nd guy listened but I think he was only a trainee. He did say the test he carried out tho included the test for checking for a split pair (after he calmed down a bit) and it was the longest test I ever seen done on my line, lasted about 20 minutes.
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The best way to sway an OR Engineer is to act innocent to the workings if you bombard them with facts & knowledge about BroadBand & phone 6 out of 10 Engineers will put their backs up unless they are total BroadBand Geeks like us, :D kind of like a cat when it's cornered by an unfamiliar human they will scarper as soon as they see an exit.
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I will leave things how they are, just had a really friendly engineer he even let me play on his tester unit, but even he wouldnt actually do any physical checks and he ran his test about 5 times to try and find a failed test but couldnt. He told me what he thinks could be causing the rain issue but as it only happens in really heavy rain and its not raining now he wouldnt be able to find it. He also accepted how fast my line used to be + currrent estimate and didnt start claiming its impossible.
I think if this engineer wouldnt do anything I dont think another will. Seems the days are gone where they will do a pair swap just to see if it helps. At least round here anyway.
But as I said to him if the speed settled down and stopped dropping I would more easily accept it, but its the fact it just keeps going down, as for all I know it could be down to 40mbit in 6 months.
So still no physical checks done just remote tests, and also he said the HR fault was the faceplate giving a false positive. So that wasnt a fault apparently.
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When I had an engineer visit, he wasn't allowed to do a pair swap, not even allowed to check connections in the pcp.
Like yours, he was only permitted to run tests.
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Yeah he said something along the lines he has to have a reason to do physical work.
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For clarification purposes, before people start thinking we are refusing to do any kind of physical work. ;D
Our remit is to test the pair of wires (MPF). 'We' have been tasked to do this by the ISP, and they pay handsomely for us to be at the EU's premises for 'Up to 2hrs'. This period of time is for us to 'normalise' the installation, thus giving a speedier more stabilised circuit.
We have to perform a PQT on every broadband job, be that Copper or Fibre. Also, an Eclipse (CIDT)/Fast Test is also expected whilst we are at site. On top of that, although not mandatory yet, we usually carry out a 5-minute DSL Close-out test, this determines the speed, attenuation, SNR, and more importantly the FEC/CRC count. We will also usually perform a co-op call with the ISP's tech 2 support, so that they too can run checks against our, and the EU's equipment.
If everything tests OK, and the ISP are happy with their remote viewing of the circuit, then the job gets closed. We are told on the job notes NOT to undergo any speculative changes, purely for the sake of it.
However, should a Network fault be highlighted by one of the tests, then the '2hr time limit', is scrapped and we will stick with the job until it is resolved, however long that takes. Safety and hazard issues dictating, of course.
Slightly off at a tangent, but local directives also dictate how network faulting should be carried out (if a fault has indeed been identified). Some OUC's will have their engineers 'fault to fix', in other words find where the actual fault is. Some will advocate their staff doing a pair change. Very political and this topic has been argued to death a million times over, within BTOR.
This is not posted with the intent to enflame the situation, just to point out the facts of how we are instructed to carry out our work.
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Well the problem for me seems to be two things.
1 - The long delay after I reported the water issue, and that its not happening whilst they here (hasnt occured since that big downpour, light rain doesnt affect my line). The engineer said I probably have a developing joint issue and he thinks one day it will just get much worse after it gets bad enough, but in his words its not bad enough yet to be detected by his equipment and as such find the fault.
2 - The local engineers dont consider me been below my speed estimate to be worthy of work. It seems they have to find a fault on their tests otherwise its a no go, I am just reporting what I have been told by them. This last engineer was very polite about it, the one last week was very agressive about it. The one that seen me today told me he came off a 5 hour job tho and I think he was knackered. Plusnet told me been below the speed estimate is justification.
When he gave the testing unit to me and told me to play with it (go through all the test result screens) all of them had a green tick and I think one had a yellow tick which said 'ok' instead of good. The balance was the ok one at 97%, the rest were good.
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this is proceeding plusnet convinced me to push it. They not happy with how local engineers approaching the issue.
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By the way guys if anyone is following this, dont know if anyone cares.
I ended up swapping my nte5 after the last visit (as my original was in during all the visits).
The HR behaviour which showed up on multiple engineer tests was never mentioned to plusnet by the engineers, a senior guy at plusnet took openreach's word for it, I was never charged for these visits but unhappy with the result.
the result been (a) plusnet been told my line tested fine every time (it didnt) and (b) my speed estimate been lowered. Ironically the new speed estimate is still many mbits above my actual speed, so they didnt lower it enough to mask whats going on.
I proceeded to tell plusnet the lower speed estimate is not valid as I only look at the estimate at the point of sale, I dont want any more SFI engineers, plusnet apparently cannot send speed boost engineers on FTTC (this is what they told me privately in ticket). I got a 3mbit sync speed boost (which has persisted since) and got rid of the HR symptons by swapping out the NTE5 myself, it took me 10 minutes yet none of the visiting engineers managed it. I was so angry about this I also emailed the CEO of openreach who is still currently investigating the situation.
So as it stands there wont be any more engineers, I dont want them to mess up my wiring, and leaving dodgy NTE5's in place (as they seemed to do) and waste my time.
I openly confessed to openreach and plusnet I have since swapped the NTE5 (front part, not the bit fixed to wall). So will see what the senior management at openreach come back with.
It has also emerged my neighbour is easily managing 80/20 and he is in the same building.