Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: setecio on January 05, 2008, 10:14:53 AM

Title: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 05, 2008, 10:14:53 AM
If someone knows that they live near or beyond the adsl line length limit for receiving adsl from their exchange, can they order a 'special' package from BT ?

A special package meaning, can they get BT to activate the broadband and send an engineer out to tweak the system to it's best performance in the hope that they might in fact be able to receive and use a 256kbps signal.

Do BT offer this as a package, so that the costs are known before ordering, and if it fails they aren't tied into a 12 month contract. If it cost £150 total or so to do it, they might. If it cost £50 per hour then they probably wouldn't.


As a side issue, if it fails, then they will have to go with satellite broadband.
Does anyone here know anything about the satellite ISPs

eg http://www.teles-skydsl.co.uk/index.php?c=tariff&s=overview&cs=skydsl1000

looks good until you read http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showthread.php?p=156689

then http://www.getbroadbandanywhere.com/ looks good

but with all these http://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/censura.php?cmd=browse&category=5

how do I know which are good, and which end up in a 24 month contract with no service received.

 :( ???
Title: Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: Azzaka on January 05, 2008, 10:57:11 AM
We do offer a 250 service for people who are a distance from the exchange. Depending how far you are we might even be abelt o provide you with a 512kb connection.

As for a 12month contract we don't offer them. Our contracts are monthly. The reason for this is, if you are not happy with the service then we don't want you to stay. There is no reason to keep an unhappy customer.

L.Goile
Zen Internet
Title: Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 05, 2008, 04:47:34 PM
Thanks, so it would cost £47 + 1month @£17.99 to try.

Is there any point in considering a BT engineer visit if I plug router into the master 'test' socket, and would you advise a Netgear DG834G for it's weak signal pickup properties (I have seen it said here on the forums) ... or what is the best weak signal router ?

It appears to be a line length of between 7 and 8 km, taking the road route which should be a max line distance. Is this too far or can a slow 256kbps be squeezed out of it ?

This page seems to suggest that gettings a 256kbps connection on a 7 to 8km line is entirely possible
http://www.farina1.com/bookmark/000004/2005/02/27/00020260.HTM


Thanks.
Title: Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: kitz on January 05, 2008, 07:46:03 PM
Hi

What results do you get from the adsl checker (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php)?
Ive seen it say on some lines that adsl will be provided after being checked by the engineer.
For very long lines an engineer will also usually try the installation of an adsl NTE5 master socket as these generally give the best results.

There are a couple of ISPs that will offer the 250 service for long lines - Zen being one of them and also iirc IDNet.  Its not something the "big boys" such as AOL, Tiscali etc tend to offer.

If your line is one of those that needs an engineers attempt, then BTw do tend to do all they can to get you with some sort of working connection.  I'm not 100% certain if this still applies, but I'm sure Ive seen in the past mentioned by Plusnet rep that if in these cases BT cant get you a working connection then BT will refund any connection charges.

Quite often the problem with long lines is that until adsl is actually provisioned on it, then you dont have any line stats to be able to say exactly what that particular line is capable of.

As regards to the router choice - at this particular time there is some debate over routers, and although the Netgear has proved to stabilise many long lines, the new one is a broadcom chipset and the jury is still out.  Because you are going to be trying to eke the very best out of a particular line then in this instance you may be better going for a speedtouch router.
Title: Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 05, 2008, 11:16:00 PM
Thanks.

Could a domestic user go for a BT business account in the hope of better service?
or Would the zen250 be better than anything BT has to offer ?

The results from adsl checker are : ONLY BT is in the exchange, no LLU.

BT Exchange Information 

 ADSL enabled : November 4, 2004
 dsl Max enabled:  March 30, 2006
 SDSL enabled : Not Enabled
 21CN due : 2008
Distance:- Direct:    4.35 km
    (appx)* By Road: 7.72 km
 


BT Line Speed Estimation  Other Broadband Technology & LLU Providers 

 Fixed ADSL:  512 kbps (0.5 Mb) 
 DSL Max :   0 kbps (0 Mb) 


Important: The above figures are an estimate based on information obtained from the BTw database.
DSLmax speeds are best guess based on the surrounding area and cannot take into effect individual line conditions which may effect the result such as the type of equipment you use or other issues which may affect the Signal to Noise Ratio.

 RAG Test Results 

 Fixed:  1Mbps and 2Mbps not possible
 radsl:  Line has over 75dB loss, ADSL unlikely, but will be tested by an engineer on-site

 MAX:  ADSL Max is available
 SDSL:  Exchange Not Enabled
 TPON:  TPON/Fibre not recorded
 Check:  No compatability issues
 

Title: Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: kitz on January 06, 2008, 01:27:26 AM
>> Could a domestic user go for a BT business account in the hope of better service? or Would the zen250 be better than anything BT has to offer ?

tbh I dont think that anything much that the BT business account could offer you personally, more than the Zen one could. 
The main advantages of the BT business account are:
1) better contention ratio at the exchange.
2) Higher upload speeds.

Neither of these will be of that much importance to you because of the limitations of the physical line.


>> Line has over 75dB loss, ADSL unlikely, but will be tested by an engineer on-site

Thats the one I mentioned... therefore it looks like an engineer would probably do the installation check in your case.  They should attempt all they can for you including the adsl filtered faceplate.
afaik they usually try 512k first, and then the 256k service.

As regards the order, and if BT at a later date confirm that adsl is not possible on the line, then you may well be able to get the install fee refunded.
I wonder if azzaka (one of the Zen reps) could kindly confirm that this is still the case.
Title: Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 06, 2008, 02:39:04 PM
Thanks. Will 21CN improve the ability to receive adsl beyond 6km ?

As regards the order, and if BT at a later date confirm that adsl is not possible on the line, then you may well be able to get the install fee refunded.
I wonder if azzaka (one of the Zen reps) could kindly confirm that this is still the case.


Yes please, if you can let me know the Zen stance, I can pass on the info to them.
Specifically if they try the Zen250 and can't get broadband in the end,
Will the £47 activation fee be refundable ?
and will Zen ask a BT engineer to visit, and if so will there be any extra fee, and will it be refundable if no adsl is achieved.
and if they get 250 can you then try for 512 ?

Thanks.


I found some interesting info via google ' long line adsl ' search. The BT2700 business router was mentioned as good, the speedtouch 585 appeared alot, inc http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/printthread.php?Cat=&Board=dslrouter&main=3148471&type=thread referring to a 8.6km line at the bottom,
this interesting info FAQ http://www.newnet.co.uk/broadband/adslfaq.php ,
and this blog was interesting, including getting the line re-provisioned to a closer exchange. (Read from the bottom upwards)
http://longlineadsl.blogspot.com/

and this gem of a doc http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/12/20130045/0

Also it would be interesting to find the results of this test a few years ago, or a more recent equivalent
http://www.uk-bug.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=267&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: soms on January 06, 2008, 05:27:25 PM
Quote
Thanks. Will 21CN improve the ability to receive adsl beyond 6km ?

I don't believe so.

21CN is BT's upgrade to the core network and exchange equipment, replacing existing telephony and data systems and converging them into one IP based network. As a small part of this, BT wholesale is also taking the oppertunity to upgrade the ADSL equipment to ADSL 2+ which is similar to ADSL Max but supporting higher data rates.
21CN is not a project to upgrade the access network with FTTC or FTTP. Openreach does however run an improvement plan which is helping to improve the performance of the copper access network whilst looking into future development of fibre systems.

My understanding is like with ADSL max at present, ADSL 2+ is a rate adaptive product and the highest speeds are only available to those with high SNRs, the primary factor in this being line length.

It will be one of those very steep graphs where if you get 8Mbps now you will probably get 24Mbps whereas if you have 2Mbps or less now you will probably see no difference.

This is due to the limitations and properties of the access network. As it is only a tiny amount of the output signal reaches the customers CPE (something silly like one-millionth. On that basis it isn't really something that can be improved by the switch to ADSL 2+.

That is my basic take on it, but I welcome any corrections or further clarifications.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 06, 2008, 11:10:15 PM
OK thanks.

There's something I don't understand about the BT or Zen decision.

The exchange is a BT only exchange and yet the advice here seems to be to go with zen250, the reason being they can offer a slower fixed speed which will give more chance of a stable connection.

How does this work ... do Zen rent that from BT ? Since it is a BT only exchange, can BT not just provide it themselves.

I'm thinking surely it is better to go with BT since they own all the equipment. If I understood why BT don't/won't offer the 250, but Zen will, then I'd think otherwise. Is it simply that BT just don't offer it as a package to consumers even though they are quite able to supply it to Zen, and do so if Zen order it from them at that exchange for the customer ?
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: soms on January 06, 2008, 11:14:40 PM
Yes this seems to the case. Its much like you can still get a fixed speed ADSL package of say 512K, 1Meg or 2Meg at "BT only" exchanges.

I believe it is as you say, the ISP is renting the service from BT wholesale, who provide the service on existing equipment and using the BT network back to the ISP on their behalf.

I agree it seems silly that BT do not appear to provide such a retail service themselves.

I have had first hand experience of this muddled arrangement in 2006.
Our Exchange is BT only and we used to use an ISP called Fast24 (before it went bust) that used Tiscali as its wholesale provider who in turn used BT as their wholesale provider for our service.

The nuisance was that the ISP went bust, BTw would not cease the line as it was tagged for tiscali and only the company renting the line can order a cease, Tiscali would not cease the line as they said we weren't their customer, even though the ISP was finished and unreachable. After four weeks without service the broadband had been ceased.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: Astral on January 06, 2008, 11:19:47 PM
All the gear is owned by BT wholesale unless it is an LLU exchange. Unfortunately it does not follow that having BT retail as your ISP will ensure good service.

I used to have a BT business (allegedly) 20:1 contention service and a Plusnet ordinary retail service which both terminated in the same double socket and presumably ran in parallel to the BT exchange. The Plusnet service was consistently faster than the BT service. My conclusion; BT might not be the best choice of ISP.

Fortunately my employer paid (through the nose) for the BT service.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: soms on January 06, 2008, 11:30:14 PM
Quote
I used to have a BT business (allegedly) 20:1 contention service and a Plusnet ordinary retail service which both terminated in the same double socket and presumably ran in parallel to the BT exchange. The Plusnet service was consistently faster than the BT service. My conclusion; BT might not be the best choice of ISP.

BT Business broadband is expensive. It also has an ever growing range of additional business orientated services with it. Hence it is not really suitable for the everyday residential user.

It is not completely like that  your two lines on the one line jack will not run in parallel.
The access network has been maintained and modified so much that the routing of pairs, even to the same premises can vary a lot. I have seen cases of a small building in a town where the lines came in from two separate DPs. Depending on the area this could mean seperate street routing to cabs and all over the place.

Line speeds aside, in an LLU exchange one would think speed differences are down the ISPs network performance.

In most (BT only) exchanges it all goes down the BT network before it reaches the ISPs network. In these cases, especially with ADSL Max, it doesn't used fixed contention ratios as such. I think Kitz mentioned something about bandwidth sharing being the thing now instead. I certainly always get very good speeds (average of around 1800-1900kbps/2000k profile) so am lucky not to be sharing to much bandwidth.

Also whilst indeed choosing BT Retail as your ISP will not ensure good service, one would hope it reduces the possible number of parties involved and so keeps things simpler and gets problems sorted faster.

BT wholesale and Openreach have regulatory obligations including to treat all communications providers equally, be that BT Retail, Zen, Plusnet. So on that basis regardless of whether you have a problem with BT Broadband or Zen, BTw should waste an equal amount of time on sorting it out.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 07, 2008, 09:46:14 AM
That makes alot more sense now.  I presume that I can fit an NTE5 faceplate for them, since i just connects in to the test socket.

Also the fact that BT support will be a call to India and probably 2 or 3 hours (or more) in the case of trying to get a borderline line length working.

The Zen UK support is much more attractive.

However, I think the other important factor now, is how much £ is at risk, in the situation that no adsl is obtainable.

I hope azzaka (one of the Zen reps) will be able to tell me all fees are refundable if no service is possible .... here's hoping.
 .... and how much the max fees will be should a BT engineer have to visit to achieve success (and is that refundable on non success)
I'm thinking it should be £0 since if I put an NTE5 faceplate on for them (or unplug al the phones and use the BT test socket on the master socket), and use as speedtouch 585 and also try a Netgear DG834G, then they can't really argue the fault lies on the house side of the master socket.

Thanks.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: soms on January 07, 2008, 11:01:10 AM
Yes you can fit a ADSL faceplate yourself. Indeed you can pretty well do anything you like on the test socket side.

I would agree with you that if your expecting to be in contact with ISP support a lot given the problem you have that I would probably also be looking for a reliable ISP preferably with UK support.

As for fees this might come down to whether BTw charges Zen anything for attempting to provide service. If Zen are charged then they can pass those one-off costs to the customer.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 07, 2008, 12:17:46 PM
As for fees this might come down to whether BTw charges Zen anything for attempting to provide service. If Zen are charged then they can pass those one-off costs to the customer.

Yea this is that grey area. I'm hopin BT won't bill the customer for anything done on the outside of the master socket (I think they only bill for inside problems). Therefore if I do all the testing plugged into the existing test socket of the master socket, trying several microfilters to avoid a faulty one, and using a speedtouch 585 and a Netgear DG834G, the customer shouldn't be billed for anything extra unless the engineer can easily show me why. That's all assuming that it doesn't just work straight away, which i what we're hoping for.  :)
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 08, 2008, 10:24:18 AM
mmm ???

I asked Zen to check the line and it came back as red on the 250 and green on the max (Zen 800 lite) , so they said they would try the max adsl product and not the 250 as the tests indicated there was more chance of getting a successful adsl connection on the max. They said BT's tests were accurate.

This confuses me  ???

I thought the max only went down to 512 and the purpose of the 250 was to go lower and achieve a connection, albeit at a lower speed but still a connection where 512 won't connect. Why would 250 be red if max was green ?

 ???

Any thoughts ?
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: soms on January 08, 2008, 11:19:04 AM
I think Max can sync down to some very low speeds. Certainly down to 256k I would think.

I have only had a little experience of this when our line was playing up with the BT home hub and we were getting weird speeds like 344kbps downstream.

I recon, but cannot confirm that you can get speeds down to between 100kbps and 200kbps. No doubt some of the better informed here will know the lowest official Max IP profiles which roughly correlate to sync speed.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: Astral on January 08, 2008, 11:24:28 AM
Quote
Why would 250 be red if max was green ?

It may be that none of the lines on your exchange are so long that 250 was the best service that could be provided. If that is the case BT wouldn't put the kit in to provide that service if there was going to be no demand. This is purely a guess I have to say.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: roseway on January 08, 2008, 11:39:32 AM
There are specific requirements which must be met before a fixed-speed connection will be implemented by BT. But ADSL Max is a 'suck it and see' service, and they'll give it a try almost anywhere.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: guest on January 08, 2008, 02:15:07 PM
Max has a minimum sync rate of 160kbps, which is a profile of 135kbps.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: kitz on January 08, 2008, 02:56:11 PM
The lowest sync on max is 160 kbps -  256 kbps  which will give you an IP profile of 135 kbps. (throughput speed).
Theres a full list of the possible max sync speeds on the bottom of the IP profile page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm).

Max allows fluctuating speeds depending on the conditions at the time, *
whilst the 250/500 service although fixed downstream is also classified as rdsl, because it can "borrow" from the upstream to be able to maintain the downstream sync.  Upstream can rate on these products can adapt between 64-288 kbps.


--------------------

*although max generally is thought of being rate adaptive, in the cases of some poorer lines it is possible for the BTw process to "cap" the downstream speed in order to maintain stability. 
There was a case on this forum, where this had happened to a user..  and it confused both us and the ISP at the time since the only indication that this had occurred was that the line suddenly became "FAST" rather than "INTERLEAVED". - linky (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,797.15.html).

------------

>> Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Sorry I started typing this ages ago - but got distracted by my daughter who's poorly and "demanded" my attention.
I see rizla has posted the profile already - but I still posted cause it also has some additional info.


Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: guest on January 08, 2008, 03:19:26 PM
I got it from the table on your site anyway :)
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: setecio on January 08, 2008, 04:03:44 PM
So, to check I'm understanding this correctly, initially it doesn't matter whether they go for a 250 or a max service as both will be equally likely to connect if adsl is possible on the line. The difference is that a max service may turn out to be less stable on poorer lines, in which case changing to a 250 service, if possible, should prove more stable.

Therefore it is, as Zen did say, better to start with the max service, since it may pleasantly connect at 512 or faster. If it doesn't connect, then 250 won't connect either, since the only advantage of a 250 service is long term stability, not a higher likelihood to achieve a connection.

Would that be correct ?
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: kitz on January 08, 2008, 11:01:31 PM
Hmmm  thats about the gist of it yes.

However...  theres a big BUT...  in that max dsl doesnt always work well with some long lines - and its not always the best solution.

1) The IP profile can be a PITA on unstable connections and you can find your speeds being artificially lowered for several days due to the IPprofile.
2) Because of the way Maxdsl works, then there are a few things that the DLM can do to try and stabilise a line.  One of those is increasing the target SNR.
- If for any reason the DLM decides that it wants to increase your Target SNR to say 12 or 15dB.. then I'd hate to think of the effect it could have on sync speeds that are going to be pretty low to start with. :(

I kept my mouth shut first time round... because if that what BT are recommending then who am I really to argue with them :/

In all fairness Max perhaps would be interesting to see just what your line could sync at first..  but the bit where it can often fall down on longer lines is because of the DLM process if that kicks in.  Possibly BT have realised this and hence why the seldom seen capped maxdsl services.  If and when, or how that kicks in I really dont know I'm afraid.

So max could be better to start with - but then it does depend on how your line performs.. and even BT wont know that until it's connected.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: Azzaka on January 09, 2008, 08:20:12 AM
Sorry i'm late,

Basically DSL Max is likely to carry the signal further and hence you can get an 8000lite and not a 250kb line. However, if your order dsl and keep it for any period and then find it becomes unstable, the line will likely be marked as NO DSL and a False Green will be issued.

Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: mr_chris on January 09, 2008, 11:45:25 AM
Basically DSL Max is likely to carry the signal further

If this line syncs successfully on Max but low-ish like 200kbps, would Zen consider keeping the line on MaxDSL but charging for a Home250 account? :)
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: kitz on January 09, 2008, 01:25:44 PM
Thanks azzaka :)


>>> If this line syncs successfully on Max but low-ish like 200kbps, would Zen consider keeping the line on MaxDSL but charging for a Home250 account

This is something that occured to me yesterday - then with my own dsl going off yesterday eve I forgot again, but mentioned it on the phone to chris last night.


It would obviously depend on setecio's usage requirements but:-
Zens home 250 unlimited is £17.99 where as the 8000 Active is £24.99

-----

Also if the line initially syncs at 250/512 and is reasonably stable - but then the DLM and IP profile start mucking around...
and if the DLM starts putting a silly high target SNR on the line would zen perhaps consider doing a modify order to a rdsl 250?

I know my own ISP will certainly do this with long lines and 512/1Mb accounts - its just that they dont do a specific 250 account.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: Azzaka on January 09, 2008, 03:55:37 PM
If the sync speed is only about 200-300kb/s the we can try to cap it on an 8mb line and call it a home250 account. However if we can get 512kb out of it then, we'll cap- it and call it  an 8000 account.
Title: Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
Post by: kitz on January 11, 2008, 02:29:51 PM
Excellent!

Thank you :)