Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Brian Coat on October 19, 2013, 10:06:22 PM

Title: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 19, 2013, 10:06:22 PM
 Hi

I just fitted a Zyxel 3300N Modem to replace my OR Modem and HH3.

The IP profile has been 2MBPS for months on the old modem, although it has been higher in the past.

Now I have a modem where I can see stats, it looks like the line could be capable of faster rates (see below).

Is this the case and is it possible that the IP profile is stuck on 2MBPS???

Any advice gratefully received!!!

Thanks


============================================================================
VDSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL Profile: Profile 17a
Traffic Type: PTM Mode
Link Uptime: 0 day: 4 hours: 54 minutes
============================================================================
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 0.522 Mbps 2.070 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 0.503 Mbps 1.998 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 6.1 dB 24.4 dB
Actual Delay: 0 ms 16 ms
Transmit Power: 5.1 dBm 9.3 dBm
Receive Power: -4.7 dBm -22.5 dBm
Actual INP: 0.0 symbols 8.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 9.8 dB 31.8 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 0.508 Mbps 18.436 Mbps
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 9.8 69.8 67.7 N/A 31.7 90.3 102.3
Signal Attenuation(dB): 9.8 N/A N/A N/A 31.8 N/A N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.1 N/A N/A N/A 24.4 N/A N/A
Transmit Power(dBm): 5.1 N/A N/A N/A 9.3 N/A N/A
============================================================================

VDSL Counters

Downstream Upstream
Since Link time = 54 min 55 sec
FEC: 3033 0
CRC: 2 0
ES: 1 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 10 min 17 sec
FEC: 92 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 114 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 4 hours 55 min 17 sec
FEC: 3033 0
CRC: 2 0
ES: 1 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 20 20
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Total time = 4 hours 55 min 17 sec
FEC: 3033 0
CRC: 2 0
ES: 1 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 20 20
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 19, 2013, 10:52:44 PM
:ouch: :o :swoon:  Oh!

Hi and welcome btw Brian.  :)

Can you please do a BT performance test (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwperformancetest.htm) and let us see the results. (make sure you dont include your phone no though).
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on October 19, 2013, 10:59:16 PM
A VDSL2 service that is worse than some of the horrors that Walter has encountered in Ewhurst.  :o

I would not have thought it possible that anyone could have a service worse than that of a Ewhurst resident.  :hmm:

I think the BT Wholesale Perfomance Test (http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/) may also be appropriate. Ignore the instructions in Steps 1 to 8, select 'Yes' and click on 'Begin Test'. Once that has completed then take the 'Further Diagnostics' option.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 19, 2013, 11:12:15 PM
yep :(

/me suspects a banded profile.

Brian appears to be with BT so we may have some difficulty explaining it to their 1st line support.     The line isnt brilliant but there's certainly quite a bit more speed in it.  Wonder what happened to make it get banded so low?



Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on October 19, 2013, 11:20:31 PM
Depending upon Brian's location, we could send in Walter and his wheelbarrow to gather statistical data on the line's performance. Once the evidence has been collated, Walter would be the one to help in 'getting the message across' to Beattie.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 20, 2013, 09:03:43 AM
Firstly, thanks for all the replies - what a cracking forum!!

Tests
====

The BT Wholesale Speed Test results are below - they are the same whether you use BT kit or the Zyxel but of course I can get stats off the latter only (my OR modem is bog standard).

BT
==
I contacted BT support today via Online chat and they got me to go through various very basic checks using the OR Modem + HH3 and they then referred me to "Network Fault Specialist Team. The team will call you within the next 48hrs". It took 1.5 hours for them to get to this stage so I'm doubtful of a quick fix ...
             
If anyone knows a way to get through to someone (at BT) who actually understands the systems and can help, I'd really appreciate it!

BrianCoat

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

   Download Speed
   1.86 Mbps
    
0 Mbps   1.93 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

 Download speedachieved during the test was - 1.86 Mbps
 For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 1.35 Mbps-1.93 Mbps .
 Additional Information:
 IP Profile for your line is - 1.93 Mbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

   Upload Speed
   0.41 Mbps
    
0 Mbps   2 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.41Mbps
 Additional Information:
 Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 2 Mbps
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Black Sheep on October 20, 2013, 12:10:03 PM
Hi Brian

'If anyone knows a way to get through to someone (at BT) who actually understands the systems and can help, I'd really appreciate it!'

As this is the start of the faulting process, I'm afraid you'll have to abide by your ISP's protocol for now. If this was, for example, the 3,4,5th time you've had to report the fault, then other forces come into play. 'Triage Teams', 'Chairmans Letters', 'e-Viper' ...... are introduced, in order to bottom out the issue.

Before we ring Walter on the Bat-phone, lets give the ISP and probably Openreach, a chance to diagnose and repair the circuit. That's what we do.  :)

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 20, 2013, 01:51:54 PM
Thanks for letting us see the test results.   I think the best possible form of action is gathering the evidence in case its needed.

Im not sure which chipset the Zyxel 3300N uses, so unsure of compatability with either DSLstats or routerstats.  You could try routerstats lite (http://vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm#routerstatslite).  These tools monitor your connection and log items such as the SNRm which can often give us a good indication of any faults on your line.

The 2nd bit of information which may help your cause is getting the results from the BT FTTC availability checker (http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/).   It may also be worthwhile putting in a neighbours phone number for comparision with yours just in case it picks up that youve been banded.

As regards to your ISP, as Blacksheep says, then at first you will have to go through the process.  It wont harm to say something along the lines of "Due to the length of time my IPprofile has been restricted to 2Mbps, I suspect my line may have been banded by the DLM"

It is also worthwhile mentioning to them that you have bought a new router which shows a sync rate of 2.07/0.5 Mbps, yet the line has 24dBm of SNR indicating speeds up to 18.5 Mbps should be possible.


----------

To be perfectly honest I think there is something else going on with your line.  The fact that the upstream IPprofile is 2Mb yet your line only syncs at .5 Mbps makes me go hmmm.   Youve only got 6dB of SNRm on your upstream which to me suggests either something wrong with the internal wiring, a faulty filter (there was a bad batch of VDSL filters) or a physical problem with your actual telephone line.

I would also suggest doing the quiet line test to see if you can hear any audible noise on your line.  (Dial 17070 and select option 2)

If you can get one of the above router monitoring tools to work that would also be good.

I think perhaps an engineers visit may be needed, but the more info you have beforehand about your line adds ammo to your belt.  Only a BT openreach engineer can get the DLM reset and any banding removed.


Your line attenuation data is also interesting note how U0 is at 9.8 dBm, yet U1 is at 69dB and U2 at 67dB.   This 'could' indicate that something within those frequencies is interfering with your dsl signal from the band frequencies of U1 upwards.  This is unproven though because aside from U0 and D1 none of the other bands are in use so there's no bitloading outside of those bands. I wouldnt expect U1 to be more than U2 though.   The fact that U1 isnt in use is likely why your upstream is so low.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 20, 2013, 04:54:36 PM
Kitz, BlackSheep,

Many thanks for the advice.

Here is the FTTC Availability Checker result. When I check my neighbours they are more (15-20MBPS) but they are 0.5km+ further along the wire to Marton Exchange than me.

Not sure what this result tells me?

BrianCoat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Telephone Number 01926633*** on Exchange MARTON is served by Cabinet 5

Available Products
   

Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)
   

Upstream Line Rate(Mbps)
   

Downstream Range(Mbps)
   

Availability Date

Featured Products
WBC FTTC    Up to 12.4    Up to 1    --    Available
ADSL Max    Up to 1    --    0.75 to 2.5    Available
Fixed Rate    0.5    --    --    Available
Other Offerings
Fibre Multicast    --    --    --    Available

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage. Throughput/download speeds will be less than line rates and can be affected by a number of factors within and external to BT's network, Communication Providers' networks and within customer premises.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 20, 2013, 05:15:35 PM
It tells you that BTw/BToR (the group responsible for line provision) expect your line to be capable of 12.4Mbps.   This is often conservative, but it certainly gives you some figures to play with and use with BTr (your ISP) and complain that there is something wrong with your speeds.

The fact that a neighbour gets different predicted speeds could also be further ammunition for you.  However with FTTC it depends on distance to the green cabinet and not the exchange..  so just make sure they are connected on the same cab as you (cabinet 5).

Its looking more & more like you have a possible fault on your line or internal wiring, which is keeping your speeds low and why the DLM has triggered a banded profile.

Its definitely worth mentioning to your ISP that you arent getting anywhere near the speeds from the FTTC checker.  They should understand that and hopefully get an engineer out to you.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on October 20, 2013, 05:15:50 PM
Hi Brian,

I responded to an almost identical query in the TBB forum this morning:-

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/4276218-zyxel-modem-stats.html?view=collapsed

Was it yours?

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on October 20, 2013, 05:19:42 PM

'If anyone knows a way to get through to someone (at BT) who actually understands the systems and can help, I'd really appreciate it!'


We suspect that a number of people know/understand the systems, but didn't you know?.......it's a secret  :lol: :lol: >:(

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 20, 2013, 06:41:38 PM
Re: "Was it yours?"

Er yes. :-[

I'm new to all this so I hedged my bets on which forum to ask.

I had no idea people would be so responsive and helpful!

Thanks, Bald Eagle.

I'll post in "mono" from now on !!!
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on October 20, 2013, 06:46:42 PM

To be honest I'm new to all this so I hedged my bets on which forum to ask.

I had no idea people would be so responsive and helpful!

Thanks, Bald Eagle.

I'll stuck to posting on this forum/thread.


A lot of users use both forums (and other forums - different audiences etc.).
It's just sometimes slightly confusing when the same user adopts a different name for each forum  :)

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: boe323 on October 21, 2013, 09:11:26 AM
You will probably see better results if you use bt's modem, im sure(my theory) that the dlm looks for something in the modem, see's its not Bt openreach and gives you pooh speed, I spent a fortune on a draytek router to compliment my new vdsl2 install, draytek router as got the same chipset so shouldn't be hardly any difference in speed, first day of plugging in the draytek, got my full sync speed (meaning the same as bt modem) after 5mins the dlm kicked in and rysnced my router, lost 5meg up and down, second day, dlm rsyncec the router, lost another 5meg up and down. I straight away unplugged router, sent it back and swapped it, while I was waiting for the new one to arrive I was using bt's modem which instantly gave me my full sync back when plugged in, new draytek arrives, plugged in, full sync speed, 5mins later, lost 5meg up and down, second day, same thing again, so you can see where im coming from, to much of a coincidence for me, lost £150 selling the draytek on ebay. Maybe you could go around check your connections, and plug the bt modem back in, but wait until around 11.30 or after 1pm but before 3.30pm to do it, best snr margin times.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 21, 2013, 12:08:50 PM
Without doubt some routers perform better on some lines than on others. Its not specifically 'BT modems' but more to do with the chipset.  For example the 2Wire 2700HGs seem work really well on long lines but are rubbish for short lines.  They do dont annex_m so I'd lose 1.6 Mbps from my upstream and I should have been easily able to sync at 24Mbps, but I could never get more than about 17/18Mbps on the downstream.  Thats a massive drop.  The Infineon chipsets didnt do too well on my line either again couldnt get more than 18Mbps, yet put a broadcom based chipset on and I could get considerably higher speeds.   The sometimes hated ST585v6 and TG582n though worked fantastic and at one time gave me a rock steady 24Mb down 2.6 up, and just slightly better than the Netgear DG series.

So sometimes its a case of suck it and see.  On the whole BCM based chipsets do seem the most favoured across the board.  Its also said to help if you match your router chipset with the DSLAM chipset, which is possibly why BCM do quite well for a lot of people.

-----

That said however, its not the main issue here.  The OP was lumbered with 2Mbps speeds for months using the BT modem and its only buy purchasing his own router that hes been able to see his stats to prove that something is wrong with the line and its capable of acheiving more.   

Whatever happened to band the line happened whilst using the BTor modem, but its still not right now and something is wrong with the upstream too, It looks like there may be a fault on the line but without using something like routerstats to monitor the SNRm its difficult to say. 


Brian may have missed my suggestion to try a Quiet Line test to see if he can hear any noise on the line.  Its a shame that routerstats isnt monitoring because Id also like to see what happens to the SNRm when the phone line is in use. 
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: boe323 on October 21, 2013, 12:50:47 PM
Oh I see, oh well.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: NewtronStar on October 21, 2013, 11:44:10 PM
You will probably see better results if you use bt's modem, im sure(my theory) that the dlm looks for something in the modem, see's its not Bt openreach and gives you pooh speed, I spent a fortune on a draytek router

looking at some TalkTalk members they are having better download experience when using the HH4 that could be because its using more modern tech than what the ISP is providing at the time the customer signs up "HG533" to there designated ISP and nothing to do with BT/Openreach firmware inside router/modem.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 22, 2013, 12:53:38 AM
^ Back to chipsets again?

Despite what some may say or think, the Talktalk HG533 has MediaTek (Trendchip) TC3086.

The HH4 has a Lantiq ARX368.  Dunno what lantiq are like but seeing the AR immediately made me think of TI.. and sure enough google tells me Lantiq took over what used to be Texas Instruments - infamous for their AR7 chipsets.*


*Lot of history behind AR chipsets - used to be considered better than BCM and rock steady on problematic lines. Used in routers like the DG834G (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php#32) until Zen found a problem with the firmware. 
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: NewtronStar on October 22, 2013, 09:11:45 PM
Lantiq took over what used to be Texas Instruments -

please stop reminding us of how old we are, I use to potter about in the Maplins shop in early 80's with my eyes set on the TI-99 computer but could only afford a spectrum  ;D

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 22, 2013, 09:22:32 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 24, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
Thanks for all your inputs.

Here is an update

1. As others have surmised, I got same rates from both modems before, maybe because the IP profile was clamped.

2. I asked Zyxel how they plan accommodate rumoured forthcoming changes to tone scheme on Infinity - they tell me they plan a firmware update for December.

3. BT did more tests over the phone then send an engr.

"I'm a phone engr not an Internet guy but I'll have a go" he said. Fairy nuff.

He reset ip profile and his kit showed 3 potential faults. One on a pole checked out NFF, one is is our roof space (on BT's side) he could not reach it, one in road underground, he could not reach it.

They are intermittent.

Will need a repeat engr visit.

(I had previouslydone a quiet line test - as advised - for long periods and heard nothing but I expect the engrs kit is far more sophisticated than a phone please my middle aged ears!).

Meanwhile d/s rate is now 12 MBPS yay! - 6x what it was but its dropping out and is bound to 'learn down', I think.

I'm OK With a slightly lower speed as long as it does not learn back to 2MBPS whilst they trace these tricky intermittent faults.

Idea: until the fault is fixed, if I fit Zyxel modem and clamp the d/s rate to say 4MBPS using a QoS clamp, will the resultant stability stop the IP profile learning down too far at night?

Thoughts??

Thanks.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 24, 2013, 04:58:31 PM
>> they tell me they plan a firmware update for December.

Thanks for that info.

>> "I'm a phone engr not an Internet guy but I'll have a go

Glad that hes reset your IPporfile.  Not so good that he wasnt able to rectify the fault the same say.  Hopefully he has arranged for someone to come who can access the required areas.

>> Idea: until the fault is fixed, if I fit Zyxel modem and clamp the d/s rate to say 4MBPS using a QoS clamp,

Not sure if QoS would do the trick.  Im not familiar with your router, but it would be the sync speed you would need to reduce.  QoS normally only affects the throughput, so youd still have the sync overhead.

The way to cut down on your sync and lessen the chance of the DLM kicking in too hard would be to lower the sync by increasing the SNR Margin.  BTor set the SNRm to 6dB by default and dont seem to bother with SNRm changes (unlike the BTw DLM).  Some routers (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/dg834GT_targetsnr.htm) have the ability to change the target SNRm and this works on BTw based DLMs.

I dont know if the BTor DLM would respond to a target SNRm tweak to say 9 or 12 dB.   Some have tried lowering it to 3dB which doesnt work and the DLM has over-ridden it.  However Ive not know anyone attempt to increase it.. so you'd be the guinea pig if you did try it.   Increasing the target SNRm (if it works on BTor) is the best way to artificially lower the sync for stability until another engineer gets around to fixing things properly.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 25, 2013, 07:54:44 PM
Next update.

THANKS for all the advice.

Another BT engr came today and "found something".

I'm still getting 12 MBPS d/s and IP Profile is 12.61 MBPS  about 30 hours

I'm interested in the idea of using an upward tweak of the SNR margin but I do not know how to do this from the Zyxel, anyone know?

Otherwise, I need to get another OR Modem and put unlocked firmware on I guess.

Looking on the forum, you guys seem to have been busy getting into the workings of that Huwei box - I am impressed!


Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 25, 2013, 08:49:49 PM
Im not at all familiar with this router Im afraid.   A very quick google didnt come up with a CLI reference manual.  Nor the chipset... its not to say the info isnt out there.

What I did find though was this (http://ftp://ftp.zyxel.com/SBG3300-N000/support_note/SBG3300-N000_1.1.pdf).   I havent had time to read through it all but a quick scan showed me it supposedly has a console port (page 20), yet I dont see any evidence of this from the photos on their site.

I notice from there that console mode supposedly has a debug mode... and there's a shell which can be accessed using the #sh command.  hmmmm  Now that reminds me a wee bit of the netgear cli (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/dg834GT_targetsnr.htm).  You may well have a BCM 63x8 chipset in there.   :fingers:

I didnt see any instructions for telnet in the manual but it would be interesting to see if you can telnet (http://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php/Telnet) into it. ;)
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 25, 2013, 09:26:09 PM
Thanks - really useful

I'd downloaded that but did not have the knowledge to infer what you did.

Zyxel seem helpful so I'll email them to ask "CLI reference? , chipset ?"

I did find out what Telnet is and logged in

I typed HELP and got a list of commands so that looks hopeful?

Theres No command Adslctl like on the net gear CLI  link you gave me but I did see xdslctl and asdl - either of those sound familiar?


I'm a mechanical engineer so this is going to take me some time ...

I also downlOaded a stats (lite) program which I plan to run next time the Zyxel is connected to the DSL line
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 25, 2013, 10:04:40 PM
I wouldnt bother too much about the chipset, thats just nosiness, to give us an indication of what they are capable of.
A CLI reference manual may be useful though if you can get one.

Quote
I did see xdslctl and asdl

Excellent :)  It looks like its possibly a BCM6368.   
If this is true, it makes me rather interested in that router especially as it includes 4xGbE.  Price is just a little bit high atm though for me :(

Quote
I also downlOaded a stats (lite) program

I think you may be able to do better than that..  DSLstats (http://www.s446074245.websitehome.co.uk/) IMHO is far superior for logging BCM routers.


Im going to pass you over to eric because hes our resident expert when it comes to the different BCM routers and has probably tried most of them. So he will have more experience than me with that particular chipset and if it can be SNRm tweaked.  Any input from other kitizens with similar chipsets is also welcomed.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: roseway on October 25, 2013, 10:48:28 PM
Quote
Im going to pass you over to eric because hes our resident expert when it comes to the different BCM routers and has probably tried most of them. So he will have more experience than me with that particular chipset and if it can be SNRm tweaked.  Any input from other kitizens with similar chipsets is also welcomed.

All the information I've gleaned about routers which have Broadcom chipsets is in this table: http://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php/BCM_routers

As far as I know, all of the BCM 6*** chipsets can be tweaked for SNRM, but some router manufacturers have denied access to the full CLI, so you would need to experiment. Some information on how to use the Broadcom CLI is here: http://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php/Broadcom_CLI
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 26, 2013, 10:16:48 AM
Roseway:This is so helpful. Thank you.

I opened a telnet session and typed xdslctl <cr> and I got a buch of commands, including ...

xdslctl configure [--snr <snrQ4>]

Is this likely to be the SNR tweak command?

If so it looks like it is accessible.

I think I'll connect the Zyxel today and download the Kitz-suggested line stats program today so I can record what it happening over time, during a phone call etc.

I then need to decide whether to *wait* for a week or so before I do anything. As you know I was thinking of *increasing* the target SNR margin.

If I increase the target SNR margin *now*, I have a [loose, ill informed!] idea it might insure me against the DLM getting over excited if there is intermittent line noise out here in the sticks. I'm still not certain BT has found all the intermittent line faults. I don't want the IP to 'learn' profile down to 2MBPS again - I just cant take many more calls to Bombay, if that happens. 

Case for waiting: After the learn period the IP profile will be more stable? If I mess with target SNR during learn period it could confuse the learn algorithm and mess things up? So far, the IP profile is not falling (after 2 days) so I could get lucky and get a stable 10MBPS+ IP profile, in a week's time.

I could do my 'experiment' at the end of the 'learn' period, provided nothing happens in the meantime to drive the IP profile down and/or band it.

As Kitz says, I'd be a guinea pig if I do this SNR margin increase thing but if anyone has info which suggests 'Lemming' would be more apposite, please do shout up!!!!

Thanks again for the various bits of advice given on here - I would not have got this far without it. 
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: roseway on October 26, 2013, 10:40:23 AM
Quote
opened a telnet session and typed xdslctl <cr> and I got a buch of commands, including ...

xdslctl configure [--snr <snrQ4>]

Is this likely to be the SNR tweak command?

Yes, that's it. The command will be something like (for example):

xdslctl configure --snr 50

which would reduce your target SNRM by about 3 dB. But Kitz' advice to do some monitoring first is good advice. DSLstats should work OK with this router - on the login page just enter the same login details as you've used for a manual telnet login.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 26, 2013, 12:06:38 PM
1) I just connected the Zyxel router (I did not reboot it, I just connected the DSL lead.
I did this just for for monitoring purposes but I noticed that the d/s speed has gone up - a lot.

After months at 2MBPS and 2 days at 10-12, I now see IP profile of 15.39 MBPS and a download rate of nearly 14MBPS.

The upstream rate is stubbornly slow. I wonder if there are any ways you can address this? (I have no idea whether you can boost a modem's output signal, for example, or indeed if it would help.).
     
From BT wholesale ....

Download speed achieved during the test was - 13.84 Mbps
IP Profile for your line is - 15.39 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.43Mbps
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 2 Mbps
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) I've looked at the modem but I have not tweaked the target SNR - the modem says the margin is about 6, which seems right.

I wonder why it is faster d/s on the Zyxel??  I'm not complaining but I'm not sure why. Maybe it has good signal conditioning circuitry or a nice/cabinet-compatible chipset, ...?  Or maybe it won't last.

If anything, u/s is a smidgen slower on the Zyxel but that's like saying it lost a photo finish in snail race.

Here are the figures from the Zyxel modem ....

    VDSL Training Status:   Showtime
                    Mode:   VDSL2 Annex B
            VDSL Profile:   Profile 17a
            Traffic Type:   PTM Mode
             Link Uptime:   0 day: 0 hour: 13 minutes
============================================================================
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream         Downstream
               Line Rate:      0.493 Mbps       15.947 Mbps
    Actual Net Data Rate:      0.474 Mbps       15.901 Mbps
          Trellis Coding:         ON                ON
              SNR Margin:        6.6 dB            6.2 dB
            Actual Delay:          8 ms              8 ms
          Transmit Power:        4.8 dBm          11.6 dBm
           Receive Power:       -5.0 dBm         -20.1 dBm
              Actual INP:        2.5 symbols       3.0 symbols
       Total Attenuation:        9.8 dB           31.7 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate:      0.476 Mbps       18.408 Mbps
============================================================================
      VDSL Band Status    U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  9.8    68.5    66.8     N/A    31.7    90.3    102.3   
Signal Attenuation(dB):  9.8     N/A     N/A     N/A    31.7     N/A     N/A   
        SNR Margin(dB):  6.6     N/A     N/A     N/A     6.2     N/A     N/A   
   Transmit Power(dBm):  4.8     N/A     N/A     N/A    11.6     N/A     N/A   
============================================================================

            VDSL Counters

           Downstream        Upstream
Since Link time = 13 min 51 sec
FEC:      31168      77
CRC:      3      0
ES:      2      0
SES:      0      0
UAS:      0      0
LOS:      0      0
LOF:      0      0
LOM:      0      0
Latest 15 minutes time = 11 min 28 sec
FEC:      24158      59
CRC:      3      0
ES:      2      0
SES:      0      0
UAS:      0      0
LOS:      0      0
LOF:      0      0
LOM:      0      0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:      7010      18
CRC:      0      0
ES:      0      0
SES:      0      0
UAS:      756      756
LOS:      0      0
LOF:      0      0
LOM:      0      0
Latest 1 day time = 18 hours 56 min 28 sec
FEC:      31168      77
CRC:      3      0
ES:      2      0
SES:      0      0
UAS:      67355      67355
LOS:      0      0
LOF:      0      0
LOM:      0      0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:      0      0
CRC:      0      0
ES:      0      0
SES:      0      0
UAS:      86401      86401
LOS:      0      0
LOF:      0      0
LOM:      0      0
Total time = 1 days 18 hours 56 min 28 sec
FEC:      35482      77
CRC:      694      4
ES:      13      3
SES:      10      0
UAS:      531824      531824
LOS:      10      0
LOF:      9      0
LOM:      0      0
============================================================================
3) I downloaded DSLstats and it is logging away.

How long to let it run before posting some data to the forum????????


Thanks for any advise you can offer on (3)

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 26, 2013, 01:47:36 PM
The speed differences between the 2 routers could just be a time of day thing, especially if the difference isnt that much between them.  The router will always try to sync with a target SNRm of 6dB.
The line hasnt been up long enough yet to be able to tell anything much from your SNRm.  Your FECs seem to be racking up nicely though :/
Id suggest posting some DSLstats SNRm graphs this evening. Some time after 6-8pm will usually be when you start to see any swings, but just keep an eye open for any before.

Your upstream speed concerns me as it seems quite poor, but I suspect theres a reason for this, which would be seen by looking at the bitloading graph in DSLstats.

It looks like your line is only capable of using tones up to around 859.   In which case its not leaving many tones for your upstream bitload, normally after tone 880 this will be allocated to your upstream speed.  The fact that your U1 attenuation is at 68.5dB, means the signal isnt strong enough to be able to load any more upstream bits.

I still find it very strange that U1 has more attenuation than U2 - thats just not right somehow. 
Although I can say without doubt, that is what is keeping your upstream speed so low.... I dont know what could be causing it. :/

-----
As to tweaking upwards you will be guinea pig..  like I said Ive known people to try tweak down on FTTC in an attempt to get more speed,  Ive not heard of anyone wanting to tweak up. 
Tweaking down hasnt worked for anyone who has tried it as the BToR DLM still sticks to the target 6dB which is their minimum (unlike adsl2+ which is 3dB).    The fact that SNRm tweaking down has been unsuccessful on FTTC could be due to the fact that 6dB is as low as they will allow.. or it could be that it just isnt going to work at all.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on October 26, 2013, 03:08:19 PM
As to tweaking upwards you will be guinea pig..  like I said Ive known people to try tweak down on FTTC in an attempt to get more speed,  Ive not heard of anyone wanting to tweak up. 
Tweaking down hasnt worked for anyone who has tried it as the BToR DLM still sticks to the target 6dB which is their minimum (unlike adsl2+ which is 3dB).    The fact that SNRm tweaking down has been unsuccessful on FTTC could be due to the fact that 6dB is as low as they will allow.. or it could be that it just isnt going to work at all.



Just to confirm, I attempted to tweak downward again early this morning, thinking/hoping the firmware/DSLAM band plan updates MIGHT have changed something that might allow it.

As always, the attempt caused a resync, but was unfortunately just as unsuccessful as previous attempts  :(

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Ixel on October 26, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
As to tweaking upwards you will be guinea pig..  like I said Ive known people to try tweak down on FTTC in an attempt to get more speed,  Ive not heard of anyone wanting to tweak up. 
Tweaking down hasnt worked for anyone who has tried it as the BToR DLM still sticks to the target 6dB which is their minimum (unlike adsl2+ which is 3dB).    The fact that SNRm tweaking down has been unsuccessful on FTTC could be due to the fact that 6dB is as low as they will allow.. or it could be that it just isnt going to work at all.



Just to confirm, I attempted to tweak downward again early this morning, thinking/hoping the firmware/DSLAM band plan updates MIGHT have changed something that might allow it.

As always, the attempt caused a resync, but was unfortunately just as unsuccessful as previous attempts  :(

The only success I've had is banding the downstream and upstream rates on the Fritz!Box I had, tweaking SNR and INP values didn't seem to work. I'm guessing the DSLAM restricts changes to those parameters.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 27, 2013, 06:23:59 PM
Re: "How long to let it run before posting some data to the forum?"

I was asking the wrong question ... I should have been asking myself, "How long will it log before one of the kids turns off PC/changes network/other"

Mean Time to Kid-struction of the logging session is currently running at about 3 hours.

The d/s SNR margin seems to cycle between 8dB (daytime) and 5dB (evening).

That all seems pretty normal and stable to me, so I won't be doing any tweaking just yet.

The U1 attenuation seems poor and inconcistent with U0 and U2, as Kitz says.

Anyone have ideas on how to interrogate what is happening there?

Thanks for any insight you can provide.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 27, 2013, 06:42:35 PM
Im not sure what could be causing it Im afraid :/   Just that something isnt quite right.  Perhaps someone else may have a suggestion.

The problem being that unless you can get bit loading in the US1 band, then you arent going to be able to get much more than 500kbps on your upstream  :'(
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 28, 2013, 09:52:44 PM
I have some stats now.
Not  sure how to arrange in a single png file so it will take 3 posts ... sorry.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 28, 2013, 09:55:57 PM
2nd lot

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 28, 2013, 09:58:11 PM
3rd set of png's
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on October 28, 2013, 11:24:51 PM
A significant number of CRCs occurred at around 0742 hours, so much so that the modem dropped the VDSL2 connection and then resynchronised.

Something is decidedly odd with your connection . . . but I currently have no idea as to what might be the cause.  :(
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 29, 2013, 01:07:14 AM
hmmm   h-log is normal

QLN kind of sits with the SNR, both are a tad messy  :(
I don't see any specific tone(s) being targeted.  A long line such as yours would be expected to show some uneveness, particularly at the highest frequencies, but tones 150 to 350 seem a bit spikey compared to 400+.  Tones in the region of 100 seem a bit low too.

The 7.30ish drop is a bit interesting, it looked like things were on the up, then 'poof' the line went.   Is there anything on a timer or anything that could have been switched on at that time? 
Things get worse again at 5pm - tea time.

>> but I currently have no idea as to what might be the cause.

Ive no idea either atm..   I think it may be a good idea to keep monitoring and see if we can see any daily pattern emerging.
Theres obviously some sort of noise going on,  low level REIN/EMI?
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 30, 2013, 09:29:06 AM
Morning,

Another set of logs.

D/S SNR gets ropey at night then improves dramatically at about 6 am each day.

Typical BTW test result is 14.5 Down 0.45 UP, IP Profile 14.9/2




Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on October 30, 2013, 05:01:51 PM
I had to check back to see which class of connection your graphs relate . . . and see VDSL2.  :hmm:

I would really like to see the SNRM graph for an entire 24 hour period. It does appear that your line suffers from a significant amount of RFI during the hours of darkness.  :(
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on October 30, 2013, 10:45:02 PM
There is  one full 24 hr snr margin graph above.

Attempts to get another full one have been scuppered by the PC being turned off (see comments above re Kid-struction).

Thanks.





Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on October 30, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
There is  one full 24 hr snr margin graph above.

Ah, yes. That is the graph showing a resynchronisation event, due to an excessive number of CRC errors being logged, at about 0742 hours.

Still puzzled.  ???
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 30, 2013, 11:27:19 PM
CAnt see any real pattern yet other than perhaps it appears to be worse when people are home?

>>  It does appear that your line suffers from a significant amount of RFI during the hours of darkness.

yep..  problem could be tracking it down :/ 
Bows to the black cats advice-  do you reckon it may be worthwhile trying the radio trick?
Im not sure if its just too fuzzy to pick anything up.

I think if it was me, I'd be going round the house turning everything off whilst leaving DSLstats running to see if theres any improvement.

Culprits in the past have been TV's, Monitors, etc.  Weve even had a music centre with a faulty plug that was wiping out adsl for 6 local houses.


Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on October 30, 2013, 11:30:13 PM
PS...  before I forget..   although its not relevant atm, you may be interested in the following thread where users on a HG612 are testing capping dsl speeds.
iirc your router has a similar chipset so you may be interesting in reading the results.   I only mention it because it was something you had brought up earlier. :)

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13130.msg248345#new
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on October 31, 2013, 01:17:03 AM
>>  It does appear that your line suffers from a significant amount of RFI during the hours of darkness.

yep..  problem could be tracking it down :/ 
Bows to the black cats advice-  do you reckon it may be worthwhile trying the radio trick?

Hmm . . . At the moment, I am just suspecting significant amounts of RFI during the hours of darkness (something that I also suffer from) and not a source of REIN. That said, if Brian has access to a radio capable of tuning (down) to around 600 kHz (or, even better, 300 kHz) then a sweep of the house may help to settle the question: "RFI or REIN?"

Come to think of it, sight of the snapshot graphs -- QLN & Hlog, in particular -- may be illuminating. As an example I attach the relevant montage of data for my own ADSL2+ line, data harvested last June. The QLN graph shows how much RF 'noise' is present in the west Suffolk environment.   :(
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 01, 2013, 08:04:19 AM
I managed to log 24h+ and compare good/bad bandwise snr

Interesting ...
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: roseway on November 01, 2013, 08:34:02 AM
Brian, I hope you don't mind my suggesting that those images are a bit fuzzy after combining the two into one and saving as a .jpg. It's generally better to post the original .png snapshots, which will be much clearer (and probably smaller as well).
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 01, 2013, 09:13:18 AM
Thanks.

The jpg is only intended to highlight the frequencies where there are big night/day differences, not to provide hi-res quantitative data.

I've found and old Sangean SW tuner which also has 535-1705 kHz AM tuner on it so I'm going try to to tune it into the (receivable) frequencies where there are noticeable gaps between black and pink (e.g.Bands ~305-385, ~1300-1650 kHz)??
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 01, 2013, 09:16:34 AM
Logs as suggested.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on November 01, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
From the latest set of graphs we can see the typical pattern in the DS SNRM and maximum attainable DS connection speed plots, which result from increased RFI during the hours of darkness. (Note that yet another re-synchronisation event occurred shortly after 0600 hours this morning.)

It would be really nice to see the Hlog and QLN graphs, plotted from the data obtained at synchronisation time. If they are in anyway comparable to my graphs (remembering that would be an attempted comparison of VDSL2 with ADSL2+), then there is nothing that could be done . . .  :(
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 01, 2013, 06:49:47 PM
Thanks very much for this.

"QLN and HLog at time of resynch" : before/after event logs attached.

I'm not sure how the modem/DSLStats s/w  are generating the HLog file but it looks suspiciously smooth?

"Yet another resynch": I've only seen/logged two since reconnecting the Zyxel a few days ago, both occurred 6-8 a.m. when the SNR curve is rising. Is this resynch rate a problem, it does not seem to be degrading the IP Profile?

"Normal SNR change night/day": I don't know anything about this - is it due to atmospheric effects? domestic rfi?

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: roseway on November 01, 2013, 07:15:20 PM
Quote
I'm not sure how the modem/DSLStats s/w  are generating the HLog file but it looks suspiciously smooth?

In DSLstats you can see the raw data reported by the modem under Telnet Data --> HLog.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: c6em on November 01, 2013, 07:40:48 PM

"Normal SNR change night/day": I don't know anything about this - is it due to atmospheric effects? domestic rfi?

During the hours of darkness there is increased radio frequency interference in the atmosphere
All BB lines pick this up
So during the evening/night the SNR trace becomes jittery and the SNR value drops
It recovers the next morning
There are some lines where the RFI affects are so severe and the SNR drops so much that the line may re-sync at a lower value during the night.  These will mainly be rural properties with long overhead line sections.

The basic reason for this is the sun's solar wind which drags the inosphere section of the atmosphere upwards on the lee side of the earth -ie the nighttime side
This causes the "Heaviside Layer" high up in the atmosphere to rise up (its approx 75 miles up)
This layer reflects radio waves
This higher positioning of the layer allows RFI to propagate over the horizon far easier.
Hence the increased RFI during the hours of darkness coming from far and wide all around.
This is the same reason why short wave radio signals can be received from a long way away during the night while they cannot be listened into during the day.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: NewtronStar on November 01, 2013, 08:04:39 PM
There was me thinking it was the street lights coming on earlier and heating systems coming on and house hold lights being switched on and eletric cookers and so on and totally forgot about solar activity and sun spots.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on November 01, 2013, 08:32:46 PM
Nice explanation c6em.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: burakkucat on November 02, 2013, 02:49:55 AM
Quote
. . .  the HLog file but it looks suspiciously smooth?

It certainly is smooth. Nice and smooth. So no obvious defects in the metallic pathway.  :)

However your QLN graph shows significant spikes between tones 150 and 370. By cross-referencing the frequencies of those peaks with the list of UK broadcast transmitters (http://www.mediumwaveradio.com/uk.php) we might be able to deduce your location!

The peak at just above tone 160 will be due to the Radio 5 transmitter, broadcasting at 693 kHz.
The peak at around tones 244 - 245 will be due to the Talk Sport transmitter, broadcasting at 1053 kHz.
The somewhat broader peak at around tones 285 - 288 could be due to the effects of both the Virgin AM and Capital Gold transmitters, broadcasting at 1233 kHz and 1242 kHz.

Carefully watching the map as the markers were added makes me wonder if you are located in south east England . . . The county of Kent, perhaps?  :-\
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 02, 2013, 10:49:58 AM
Wow, C6em: Thank you for an excellent explanation of the ionospheric effects!

Yesterday’s night/day AM radio tuner experiment certainly bears this out – in addition to some of the channels which Burakkucat predicted, at night you start to pick up all kinds of ‘continental’ stuff plus a great deal of other noise.

Thanks, Burakkucat for your noise source map. I am based in the Midlands, not the South East as predicted by Burakkukat (so no need to apply to the feline section of MI5/GCHQ just yet ;D) but the map also has plenty of dots near where I live, so the logic is spot on.

And I do live in a “rural property with long overhead line sections” as mentioned by c6em.

So you have helped me to understand that … I am fairly near to transmitters broadcasting at problem frequencies and I have a large AM antenna in the form of overhead lines.

I do not think there is much I can do about these fundamental effects, except wait for BT to bring FTTC to my own (small) village. This could be a long wait!

That said I am very happy that my d/s IP profile is now over 6x what it was before I got a modem that allows access to the stats.
I am really grateful to Kitz forum members whose expertise and generous advice showed me how to access the data and what it means. Thank you very much.

This allowed me to convince BT there was an IP Profile problem, (something I’d not been able to do before, despite trying) and it also allowed me to learn a little about how it all works, which to an engineer is always a bonus.

THANK YOU!

By the way, this Zyxel 3300N modem is a nice bit of kit – it works well with BT Infinity and has many excellent features on the LAN/WLAN router side.

Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on November 03, 2013, 07:57:31 PM
Thanks for the feedback Brian.  Sorry we werent able to fully solve your issue, but at least now you know the area's which are problematic for your line.
That hlog is really good considering your line length and as b*cat pointed out it would tend to suggest nothing wrong with the physical line itself - just interference coming from somewhere.

Quote
By the way, this Zyxel 3300N modem is a nice bit of kit

Since finding out about the chipset, this router is now one of those that I have my eye on so thanks for the info.
For some reason my line seems to perform much better with BCM, and not so good with TI/INF/Lantiq
It ticks all the right boxes 5x (not just 4) GbE ports and it supports SNMP, something that a lot of routers dont these days.
Is the WiFI performance ok? -  I have an area in my lounge which can be a deadspot with some routers.  Unfortunately that is where the (smart) TV is located.

Im also impressed that you seem to have a good line of support with this router. 
If you do manage to get a CLI reference manual that would be a real bonus.

I think theres just one thing that I'd miss...  and thats BE's HG612_stats  :D
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 04, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
Hi

The wifi range seems OK to me but I guess I guess the only way to know is to give it a try and send it back if it's no good.

My box is in the loft and it reaches the downstairs rooms OK.


Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: kitz on November 04, 2013, 09:22:12 PM
Quote
My box is in the loft and it reaches the downstairs rooms OK.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: NewtronStar on November 11, 2013, 09:08:57 PM
Here is a realtime Ionospheric map it updates every 30mins

http://www.ips.gov.au/Images/HF%20Systems/Global%20HF/Ionospheric%20Map/WorldIMap0.gif

or http://www.bath.ac.uk/elec-eng/invert/iono/rti.html
Title: Re: Stuck IP Profile??
Post by: Brian Coat on November 17, 2013, 11:39:57 AM
Just saw this post.

Thanks.

That is so cool!