Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: Black Sheep on July 24, 2013, 07:16:39 PM
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Just read a small snippet about the 'Vectoring Trial', and came across this piccie for those interested ??
Plan to trial and test vectoring capability in selected areas, chose because of take-up and potential sources of interference.
Trial planned to start May 2013 and to run for a period approximately 3-6 months.
The trial will enable us to:-
Validate the performance recovery of the VDSL signal
Demonstrate any potential negative impact of non Openreach interference sources e.g. radio transmitters
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Bows down in thanks. :friends: So, is this perhaps the Enhanced subrack? I'll need to get my magnifying glass out! :drink:
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Yes, sorry ............ had to 'resize' the blighter.
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Hope this comes out OK ??
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Just read a small snippet about the 'Vectoring Trial', and came across this piccie for those interested ??
Thank you for that image. I expect that Asbokid will be looking up the relevant specifications and technical documentation for the Huawei 5603. :)
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Is that BE's house glowing bright red, right in the centre of both images? :lol:
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Ha ha ........ funny as.
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I expect that Asbokid will be looking up the relevant specifications and technical documentation for the Huawei 5603. :)
Ooops!
Dear Customers,
Huawei announces the end of life of MA5600T/MA5603T/MA5606T/MA5680T/MA5683T V800R006.
The last day to order MA5600T/MA5603T/MA5606T/MA5680T/MA5683T V800R006 is 2012-12-31 (EOM).
:-[
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Thanks BS. Ive split this from the [urlhttp://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12541.0.html]'Go Live date thread' [/url]so it can have a topic of its own :)
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No worries. Good idea though, as this will probably have some debate once the trial has ceased, and the findings made known ? :)
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yep.. and a topic well worthy of its own thread :)
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I want to know if they plan on increasing headline speeds with the addition of vectoring, if they go ahead with it.
Will the 30-70mbps that people are seeing on FTTC last the next ten years (Going by the time I experienced between ADSL and FTTC)?
If they have to change DSLAMs, perhaps waiting for something like G.Fast would be a better option, instead?
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Vectoring (in fact a further development of it) is a prerequisite for G.Fast*. It's all part of the future evolution.
While G.fast is not yet standardized and won’t be commercially available for several years, it is a natural evolution of VDSL2. In the meantime, operators can rely on VDSL2 vectoring to serve their customers in a cost-effective way.
Here's a helpful and informative article http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/the-numbers-are-in-vectoring-2-0-makes-g-fast-faster/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/the-numbers-are-in-vectoring-2-0-makes-g-fast-faster/)
The FTTx cost comparison, capex and installation plot will be particularly interesting for some. :P
*Perhaps another good reason for not letting Sky mess about with their own DSLAMs. ;)
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Our (BT's) own laboratory trials were very successful. The 6-month 'real-life' trials are also showing great promise.
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Glad to hear that. :)
The same article above also gives a thumbs up to easy deployment here http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/)
And here http://www.huawei.com/ilink/en/solutions/broader-smarter/HW_258183 (http://www.huawei.com/ilink/en/solutions/broader-smarter/HW_258183) we can also watch what your boss has to say about it! ;D
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Would you say vectoring gives all connections an overall boost in speed/quality or is it a case of those in certain configurations can expect more than others again? What speed increase %'s are we expected to see for most?
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The 64,000 dollar question ?? The trials are pretty much in their infancy, and the data is confidential, so I personally can't give too much info. I would say though, that it appears all circuits have to be vectored in order for it to perform at its optimum. 'Non-vectored lines seem to be referred to as 'Disturbers' or 'Aliens', and appear to have an impact ...... how big or small I don't quite know ??
It must be significant enough though, as the engineers taking part in the trial, have to use a special separate module on their Hand Held Testers (HHT) in order not to fall under the 'Disturber' moniker.
I'm afraid you'll have to wait for the perceived increases per line-length, but on the face of it, everyone will hopefully gain ??. Others may have the time to dig out 'Vectoring effects' and associated data, from elsewhere around the globe ?? You may then gauge possible increases ??
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The benefits of vectoring have been tried in other countries by other CSPs as along ago as 2010. BT is not, IMO, testing whether or not it does 'what it says on the can', but rather piloting the practical processes and procedures necessary for a successful roll-out in the UK. Can't imagine what's particularly confidential about it, but hey, ho.
This link (amongst very many) http://www.assia-inc.com/news-and-events/in-the-news/pdf/VDSL2Rescue_061510_web.pdf (http://www.assia-inc.com/news-and-events/in-the-news/pdf/VDSL2Rescue_061510_web.pdf) has a graph showing the potential improvements.
This link http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vdsl2-vectoring-delivers-on-its-promise/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vdsl2-vectoring-delivers-on-its-promise/) is yet another reporting on its promise.
Some of the earlier links posted explain how it is possible to use a 'zero-touch' approach to non-vectoring friendly lines.
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I'm guessing the confidentiality is down to wanting to proof-test the product to its fullest, on different lengths of cable, on different gauges and metallic construction, at different times of the day, etc etc .......... before releasing documented statements proclaiming what improvements (if any), EU's can expect ??
I think any brand leader would approach it in the same manner ??
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I think any brand leader would approach it in the same manner ??
Excellent. I look forward to them publishing their results in a manner similar to alcatel-lucent then. :)
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What ?? You want the info in French ??
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I must be more fluent in French than my O-level allows then, because when I read any of content of the links I posted they seemed to me to be in English! :D
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I think black sheep what he means is BT seem to be treating as something new and unknown when in reality its now years old, they are very much behind the curve.
BT shouldnt be testing what vectoring does, thats already known and proven, but rather compatability with whats unique to their own service such as existing CPE and DLM.
and yes all existing modems have to be in a vectoring friendly state ie. they have to transmit vector friendly signals although they dont necessarily need to be vectoring enabled just vector friendly so they stop been disturbers. The 2 are different things.
There is even ofcom documentation on vectoring. So even the uk has explored vectoring before as well.
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Thanks Chrysallis, however, I'd already gathered there was a hint of sarcasm to the posts. ;) ;D
I don't think BT are treating these trials as if 'Vectoring' is a brand new product, at all. They are, of course, testing the product on their network and associated 'plug-ins', such as DLM like you mention. That is where the confidentiality lies.
I'm sometimes left puzzled as to what (the royal) you, think BT do all day ?? They have been around Telecoms for quite a while now. OK, so they don't always get it right first time .......... show me a global business that does ?? They may be 'Behind the curve', but so what ..... that is their prerogative. If they want to test a product to its fullness and their total satisfaction, before they publish data that people are going to jump all over if it isn't 'just so', then again, that is their decision to make.
That is good info, Chrysalis, regarding the routers only needing to be vector friendly. I can foresee a bit of a learning curve may be needed when it does make it to market. :)
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This http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/), which I previous posted @#14 above, discusses how a 'zero-touch' approach to legacy CPEs, so that they don't even need to be vector-friendly to start such a roll-out
CSPs can switch customers who are willing to pay for higher bit rates to vectoring (either by shipping a new vectoring CPE, or by upgrading the existing VDSL2 CPE to vectoring, if supported), and use zero-touch vectoring for all other legacy VDSL2 lines. Together, these actions enable full downstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines.
CSPs can then upgrade legacy VDSL2 CPE to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode at their leisure to unlock full upstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines as well. If the CPE supports neither vectoring nor vectoring-friendly mode, zero-touch vectoring provides a safety net because it can support all legacy VDSL2 CPE.
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Add in the fact that BT have never been known to just take the word for industry standards and prefer to do their own testing in their own environment.
This has historically been the case with most of the technologies that they use... they then often seem to tweak things to suit their own aims and quite often file patents on their findings. BT employ and/or have access to some of the top engineers/scientists/researchers who seem to come up with various tweaks on the original design. They've done so with so many things.
These boffins at the top of research though seem to be locked away in dungeons.. as you never seem to see or hear of them, nor any of their (personal) findings are ever posted on the net. You may though on occasions stumble across things in the patents library which just accredit BT and you know that they do have a team constantly working and tweaking existing technology as well as new.
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Thanks Chrysallis, however, I'd already gathered there was a hint of sarcasm to the posts. ;) ;D
Not at all. BT's big enough to withstand a little fun being poked at it, surely? :) No-one's perfect, not even BT, as you sagely observe. :)
They are, of course, testing the product on their network and associated 'plug-ins', such as DLM like you mention. That is where the confidentiality lies.
So, you now agree with what I said then? ;) :) BT is not, IMO, testing whether or not it does 'what it says on the can', but rather piloting the practical processes and procedures necessary for a successful roll-out in the UK.
I'm sometimes left puzzled as to what (the royal) you, think BT do all day ??
The problem BS is that if they are retiscent to place what they are doing in the public domain, like others in the global telecommunications business, then frankly, apart from leaks from your good self ;D, how would we know?
If they want to test a product to its fullness and their total satisfaction, before they publish data that people are going to jump all over if it isn't 'just so', then again, that is their decision to make.
Again, part of the problem with BT (being as big as it is in all its parts) is that (the royal 'you' i.e. us poor EUs) get the impression sometimes that it is only their satisfaction that counts. Perhaps better PR would help here?
However, I am looking forward to when they do publish data
following the completion of the trial (assuming the data is a little more than a product announcement, or more marketing spiel :D), and I'm sure you'll get us all posted when that happens. :thumbs:
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Thanks Kitz, for basically posting up my next offerings to this debate. You are also right with your observations, about our boffins being locked away !! The 'Chief Engineers Office' is like MI6 !!
Colin, it's fine to be sarcastic, or 'A little fun being poked' .......... my subsequent ;) ;D tells you as much. :)
I will still differ with you about making their trial results public, whilst they are on-going. I think it would be absolute madness to do this, and they obviously think the same. :)
What I would agree with you on though, is better PR. How this could be achieved is the issue. We can't make bold statements like 'Vectoring will improve all DSL circuits', because we simply don't know that for 100% sure. Hence the trials. Whatever we do say by way of PR, will have Ofcom all over it in a breath, so again, the trials have to be completed, data collated and decisions made.
There are people in our business on 7-figure salaries, and additional 7-figure share options, who have a much deeper insight into the technologies, application of said technologies, costings, and ........... PR roll-out.
They will have no doubt had discussions with other telecoms giants about the suitability, and they will definitely had chats with the people who will eventually supply us with the relative equipment. They haven't just woke up one day in May and said, "I've just GOOGLED 'Vectoring' and it might be OK".
A touch of my own sarcasm there, just in case others misconstrue my intentions. Please, rest assured, they know what they are doing and will let us all in on the 'secret' when they're good and ready. ;D
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BS, I don't think I, or AFAIK, anyone else here ever suggested they publish anything while their trial goes on. That would be pointless. It would be refreshing though if they did so after it was completed. :)
As Kitz has pointed out, it's a cultural difference with them. What goes on at Martlesham and elsewhere is kept close to their chests, and always has been, even before Ofcom was invented. Others are happy to describe their work in principle to the world, and subject it to public scrutiny. This is 'the scientific approach'.
I'm afraid my fear is they won't let us all in on the secret, as they will never be ready to do so. But I would be delighted to be proved completely wrong. :friends:
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yeah to make it clear, I do accept BT need to trial it prior to a rollout. It would be somewhat crazy to just rollout without any kind of trial, so I agree processes need to be established, as you discovered also changes to JDSU's etc. as well to make them vector friendly. BT probably also need to establish protocol for what happens when they discover a modem on their network that isnt vector friendly (breaching openreach existing guidelines). Those sort of things I fully understand that preperation is needed.
Also what may be very important if existing cabinet equipment is not in the right state to simply switch vectoring on (which many of us believe to be the case), a process will need to be established on how to switch areas over.
My point is more about BT seem detached from other isp's in that as stated by the above few posts, they tend to do things at their own pace and not worry about what others are doing worldwide.
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Well said. :)
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A few of you will know that around 35 years ago I systematically (over a period of many months) read every copy of the Post Office Electrical Engineers' Journal that had been published. That journal was very much in the format of a learned journal and carried details of the R & D that took place, originally at Dollis Hill and latterly at Grimbledon Down. (I even subscribed to that journal for a few years. ;) )
I am currently reading the last four parts of that journal (Volume 74, 1981 - 82) before it was renamed (as British Telecommunications Engineering) as a consequence of the renaming of The Institution of Post Office Electrical Engineers as The Institution of British Telecommunications Engineering which, in turn, was a direct result of the transmogrification of Post Office Telephones into British Telecommunications.
In my grotto I have the first three parts (Volume 1, 1982) and a few other issues of British Telecommunications Engineering, yet to be read. I fully expect to see that the learned journal tradition had persisted.
Finally I get to the crux of my posting. Is the British Telecommunications Engineering journal still published? And is it still of the standard, established by the prior POEEJ? If the answer is "yes" to both questions, then that publication should be the required reading of all of us "who like to know". :)
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yeah to make it clear, I do accept BT need to trial it prior to a rollout. It would be somewhat crazy to just rollout without any kind of trial, so I agree processes need to be established, as you discovered also changes to JDSU's etc. as well to make them vector friendly. BT probably also need to establish protocol for what happens when they discover a modem on their network that isnt vector friendly (breaching openreach existing guidelines). Those sort of things I fully understand that preperation is needed.
Also what may be very important if existing cabinet equipment is not in the right state to simply switch vectoring on (which many of us believe to be the case), a process will need to be established on how to switch areas over.
My point is more about BT seem detached from other isp's in that as stated by the above few posts, they tend to do things at their own pace and not worry about what others are doing worldwide.
I wouldn't know how to answer that, other than what I've already stated ?? It's their network, it's their trials ..... what should they be worried about on a worldwide scale ???
Vectoring is relatively new on the world scene, I think 2010 was quoted elsewhere. Was that the beginning or the end of 2010 ?? We really only started installing FTTC in volume nationwide approx 2yrs ago, and now we're half way in to this vectoring trial and it's still only 2013.
Believe me, please ?? There are a million and one power-point presentations surrounding this trial and what is needed to bring it to market. If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D
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B*Cat ...... I have personally not seen any journal other than 'Field Engineering News', offered up to we engineers. That though, is just brief outlines of projects, change of process, etc etc
The real 'meat' is in our ISIS library, which describes in finite detail every aspect of BT's 'doings'. From H&S, to FTTP, to which screwdriver to use. Guess what though ?? They are confidential and not for public consumption. You would never, ever, ever get through all that reading material, Alan !!! But, it's right up your street with stuff that goes right over my head. :D
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Part of the trials involve determing the effect of external influences on the vectored system.
In particular interference from such installations as aerials and railways.
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Finally I get to the crux of my posting. Is the British Telecommunications Engineering journal still published? And is it still of the standard, established by the prior POEEJ? If the answer is "yes" to both questions, then that publication should be the required reading of all of us "who like to know". :)
Ah, the POEEJ. If only it were .... :(
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If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D
When you do that, you may wish to also mention that you are aware of a particular user that is allegedly experiencing crosstalk issues that have robbed 1/3 of his connection's previous capabilities.
That user might just be inclined to provide a little feedback if his connection was chosen to 'test' the success rate of Vectoring.
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I wouldn't know how to answer that, other than what I've already stated ?? It's their network, it's their trials ..... what should they be worried about on a worldwide scale ???
Nothing - provided they want to give a hostage to fortune from those who might say that this (would be) the typically arrogant attitude of any monopoly provider. And none of us would want that. :no: :(
Vectoring is relatively new on the world scene, I think 2010 was quoted elsewhere. Was that the beginning or the end of 2010 ??
Public trials in other countries by other CSPs started in mid-2010, as cited in the above links. The technology was developed before that, obviously.
We really only started installing FTTC in volume nationwide approx 2yrs ago, and now we're half way in to this vectoring trial and it's still only 2013.
And all due credit to OR for this. :clap2:
There are a million and one power-point presentations surrounding this trial and what is needed to bring it to market. If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D
Yes, I do. It's to persuade her to to see the sense of allowing her very clever engineers to publish their work in the POEEJ or anywhere else that's open to public inspection, so that we can all see and understand what they are trying to achieve, how and why. What's she got to lose? Only enhanced respect for their efforts?
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yeah to make it clear, I do accept BT need to trial it prior to a rollout. It would be somewhat crazy to just rollout without any kind of trial, so I agree processes need to be established, as you discovered also changes to JDSU's etc. as well to make them vector friendly. BT probably also need to establish protocol for what happens when they discover a modem on their network that isnt vector friendly (breaching openreach existing guidelines). Those sort of things I fully understand that preperation is needed.
Also what may be very important if existing cabinet equipment is not in the right state to simply switch vectoring on (which many of us believe to be the case), a process will need to be established on how to switch areas over.
My point is more about BT seem detached from other isp's in that as stated by the above few posts, they tend to do things at their own pace and not worry about what others are doing worldwide.
I wouldn't know how to answer that, other than what I've already stated ?? It's their network, it's their trials ..... what should they be worried about on a worldwide scale ???
Vectoring is relatively new on the world scene, I think 2010 was quoted elsewhere. Was that the beginning or the end of 2010 ?? We really only started installing FTTC in volume nationwide approx 2yrs ago, and now we're half way in to this vectoring trial and it's still only 2013.
Believe me, please ?? There are a million and one power-point presentations surrounding this trial and what is needed to bring it to market. If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D
They havent necessarily got to copy everyone else, but one would expect BT to be aware of vectoring earlier and plan for it earlier, if its true eg. that all ECI dslam cards would have to be replaced to rollout vectoring than thats just bad planning and management.
For this reason I dont think vectoring will be rolled out soon to existing areas, it would make their current investment too much of a waste, swapping out cabinet equipment thats been in place for a very short time. But will see maybe BT will surprise me.
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That's my point Chrysalis .......... with respect, your just guessing what current plant spec is, and second-guessing what BT intend to do about it ?? You have no way at all of gauging what is out there, and its 'vectoring' compatibilities ?? Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do hope they surprise you. :)
Colin ........ 'Nothing - provided they want to give a hostage to fortune from those who might say that this (would be) the typically arrogant attitude of any monopoly provider. And none of us would want that. :no: :('
Same answer to yourself my friend, just because they're not hot-footing it to the public forums every time they run a test, does not mean they're not 'knowledge sharing, or knowledge-acquiring, from other global Telecoms leaders. in fact, I'd bet my pension that that's exactly what they do !!! ;) ;D
BE ...... Don't you go worrying, Liv knows of you personally, and we have had a gold-plated vectoring shelf specially made for PCPxx in Oldham, for all your hard work and dedication to FTTC test and diagnostics. Bet Mrs BE wants to move house once its fitted ?? ;D
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I'm going to bow out of this thread now, as we're just going round in circles, and the simple truth is none of us will know what the final decisions are, until they are made way above my pay grade.
I'm off now, to insist that TRESemme tell me how their latest hair-product trials are coming along. :P ;D
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That's my point Chrysalis .......... with respect, your just guessing what current plant spec is, and second-guessing what BT intend to do about it ?? You have no way at all of gauging what is out there, and its 'vectoring' compatibilities ?? Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do hope they surprise you. :)
Colin ........ 'Nothing - provided they want to give a hostage to fortune from those who might say that this (would be) the typically arrogant attitude of any monopoly provider. And none of us would want that. :no: :('
Same answer to yourself my friend, just because they're not hot-footing it to the public forums every time they run a test, does not mean they're not 'knowledge sharing, or knowledge-acquiring, from other global Telecoms leaders. in fact, I'd bet my pension that that's exactly what they do !!! ;) ;D
BE ...... Don't you go worrying, Liv knows of you personally, and we have had a gold-plated vectoring shelf specially made for PCPxx in Oldham, for all your hard work and dedication to FTTC test and diagnostics. Bet Mrs BE wants to move house once its fitted ?? ;D
with respect I do, I am not guessing whats in cabinets and not guessing the capabilities.
the capabilities are published on ECI's website and photos have been taken of ECI cabinets showing what is inside them.
Of course its possible that not all ECI cabinets have the same ECI equipment, but other members of BT staff who are not as secretive as you have said BT only use M41's for ECI cabinets. Not only have I used ECI's website but they also replied to me in an email stating M41's cannot do vectoring.
Trying to have a rational discussion but you are coming across a bit defensive I already said maybe BT will surprise me but that didnt seem to go down too well with you, so I dont know what else to say really, other than its not complete guesswork on the equipment.
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I'm defensive because I work for the company, Chrysalis. They have give me a good standard of living for nearly 28yrs now, and when I see folk quoting half-measures to try and and support their cries of BT are basically cr4p, then I will question them.
These other 'non-secretive' BT folk ?? If they want to post up their thoughts on other sites, all power to them. When the official documentation I see says, 'CONFIDENTIAL - NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE OF BT', I do not go cutting and pasting the information, just to look good on a public site.
If you get the information from other sources outside of BT, then all power to you. But I would seriously question where you get your info as you posted this further up the thread ..... ' ..... and yes all existing modems have to be in a vectoring friendly state ie. they have to transmit vector friendly signals although they dont necessarily need to be vectoring enabled just vector friendly so they stop been disturbers. The 2 are different things'., which was quite obviously wrong as our own Colin S then posted ..... 'CSPs can switch customers who are willing to pay for higher bit rates to vectoring (either by shipping a new vectoring CPE, or by upgrading the existing VDSL2 CPE to vectoring, if supported), and use zero-touch vectoring for all other legacy VDSL2 lines. Together, these actions enable full downstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines.
CSPs can then upgrade legacy VDSL2 CPE to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode at their leisure to unlock full upstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines as well. If the CPE supports neither vectoring nor vectoring-friendly mode, zero-touch vectoring provides a safety net because it can support all legacy VDSL2 CPE'.. This was a quote from Alcatel-Lucent.
I was all up for a 'rational discussion', but trying to belittle me as you appear to be attempting to do in your post above, does not really endear me to do that anymore. If you mistook my sarcastic jokes as being serious, then a PM to me would have been the preferred method, but take it from me, they were just sarcastic comments.
As I said above, I wanted to bow out of this, as the discussion is just going round and round. I will defend BT, you will call them into question. You state you don't think vectoring will be rolled out shortly (whatever timespan 'shortly' means ?), I say it will, after the trials have ended.
Agent Black Sheep, over and out. ;)
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Black Sheep you said you were done but here you are again, sadly it seems you cant accept 'any' kind of comment that isnt saying BT is great. That is going too far.
ColinS doesnt have to agree with me but one of the sale points of vectoring to isp's is they can use vectoring as a way of charging a premium fee. Of course for vectoring to work all equipment has to be vectoring friendly to remove disturbers, but they dont have to be enabled (higher sync speeds). Yes the 2 are different things.
Making a CPE vectoring friendly changes the transmitted signal so that vector enabled devices can seperate that signal from their own signals. A vector friendly but not enabled device will not seperate neighbouring signals from its own and as such not get the benefit of increased speeds but still wont interfere with neighbouring enabled lines. All this information is in published alcatel and ofcom documentation, there is nothing confidential about it.
There is also nothing confidential about the capabilities of ECI hardware. ECI have chosen to publicise it.
Likewise Huawei have done the same with their hardware.
I wasnt belittling you but simply stating the information is already out in the wild in terms of the equipment in BT's cabinets.
You then quoted alcatel to state I am wrong yet what you quoted states vector friendly and vector enabled are 2 different modes,
BT may like to treat all their customers as idiots, they always know best, best not to give us technical info etc. but we customers will still get this information from other sources.
Whatever you may state about BT, its a clear U turn on their original plan, there is no way it makes business sense to deploy expensive to deploy equipment that has a 2-3 year self life. In this case BT clearly wanted to have a bigger part of their deployment as FTTP but that hasnt worked out for them so now they have shifted more focus onto FTTC and decided to look into vectoring.
Is there now going to be another post calling me an idiot? Also I dont remember calling BT crap ;) Saying been short sighted and not planning properly is not calling them crap, this is where you have been overly defensive. If we all talk in PM what is the point of the forum?
I am sorry you cannot take part in a discussion which has comments that point out bad things about BT. Companies I have worked for in the past I dont defend them to the point I think they are absolute perfection and feel the need to defend them.
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ColinS doesnt have to agree with me but one of the sale points of vectoring to isp's is they can use vectoring as a way of charging a premium fee.
No, Chrysalis, I don't disagree with you at all that that is a typical selling point. :)
However, you raise an interesting definitional debate about 'vectoring' (which I think you are terming more explicitly 'vectoring-enabled'), 'vectoring-friendly' and 'legacy' VDSL2 CPE.
I recommend a rereading of this link http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/) as space is limited here. But here are a few relevant extracts:
Upgrading legacy VDSL2 customer premises equipment (CPE): To achieve the full gain on vectored lines, all legacy VDSL2 CPE must be upgraded to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode. These upgrades are time consuming, and not all legacy VDSL2 CPE supports such upgrades. With zero-touch vectoring technology, CSPs can benefit from vectoring gains on vectored lines without “touching” the legacy VDSL2 CPE.
Migrating legacy CPE is the biggest challenge CSPs face in a vectoring roll-out. Even a single legacy VDSL2 line in a binder can reduce the vectoring gains on other lines. To avoid this situation, all legacy VDSL2 CPE must be upgraded to either vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode. CSPs currently use 2 approaches to upgrade legacy VDSL2 CPE:
1) Firmware upgrade to vectoring mode
2) Firmware upgrade to vectoring-friendly mode
The current approaches create two challenges for CSPs:
1) Not all legacy VDSL2 CPE can be upgraded to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode. That means any remaining legacy lines will reduce vectoring gains on the other lines.
2) Upgrading legacy VDSL2 CPE is logistically difficult. The CSP must upgrade hundreds (of thousands) of CPE before vectoring can be activated (shurely some exaggeration here ;D ???). This requires significant time and effort and can delay vectoring deployments. Any number of issues can arise during upgrades — firmware updates can fail, end users might have switched off their CPE during the upgrade window, or they might have disabled the remote update feature.
Zero-touch vectoring technology solves the legacy VDSL2 CPE challenge for CSPs automatically. Clever signal processing in the DSL access node ensures that cross-talk from legacy VDSL2 lines into vectored lines can be measured, and canceled without requiring any new functionality in the legacy VDSL2 CPE. As a result, firmware upgrades are not required; legacy VDSL2 CPE behave as if they are “vectoring-friendly” without being touched.
Hope this at least informs the debate for all of us. :)
[Edit] Or CSPs could pass on the cost of new replacement CPE to EUs as part of a new service. £££££! ;D But persuading everyone in the same cable binder to do so, whether they wanted to or not, would be quite another issue!
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indeed, it may be better to just say vectoring instead of vectoring enabled with vectoring friendly been the alternative mode to stop it been a disturber.
If kitz or some other mod wants to delete my last post I am fine with that so can leave black sheep with his final word :)
I am hoping I am wrong on my prediction and BT roll this thing out soon, as it then means I get a better service.
Current openreach documentation says existing CPE has to already be vector friendly, so I assume from that the hg612 and ECI devices are already vectoring capable even if a firmware upgrade is needed. But that is an assumption by myself based on existing openreach documentation.
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But your original concerns over the M41s are indeed an understandable and legitimate reason to be searching for more and better information. I really do hope that this is something that the outcome of the trial will be able to give concerned EUs like yourself some reassurance over, and best of all, hope for the future. :)
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I'm not going to delete any posts, but I do ask that members refrain from making personal remarks at each other... although Im aware that I snapped earlier in another post (chastises self).. so perhaps its the weather?
I'm all for discussion, and we all have our own view points and opinions, but I dont like it when people start squabbling.
The thing is at the moment, we know the technology exists, but we dont know yet what BT are going to do with it. Im sure many of us here would like it if BT were more transparent, however I can fully understand why they do keep certain things under wraps. I dont always agree with some of the things that BT do, but at the end of the day we are pawns and tbh I cant think of another Telco who could do any better :(
I dont know sufficient about this topic to add anything of value other than whats already been covered, so Im bowing out now too and hopefully I can just continue to read what should be an interesting and informative thread.
Normally now I'd pour myself a glass of something... but since Im on painkillers and Flagyl... thats not a good idea... so instead... I'll raise a virtual glass and say chill and cheers :drink:
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tbh I cant think of another Telco who could do any better :(
instead... I'll raise a virtual glass and say chill and cheers :drink:
Me neither, but I could probably think of some that might be worse! :(
:drunk: