Kitz Forum

Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: 4candles on July 19, 2013, 05:28:31 PM

Title: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: 4candles on July 19, 2013, 05:28:31 PM
Following on from the two recent WWII threads, I was pleasantly surprised to see this news item (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23376832) today.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: burakkucat on July 19, 2013, 06:33:42 PM
That is good news and about time, too.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: roseway on July 19, 2013, 06:38:10 PM
It was a different world then, of course. But yes, his contribution to our war effort was tremendous, and he should certainly be pardoned for something which hasn't been an offence for decades now.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 12:16:50 PM
I agree that we should, the laws have changed since then and this country owes him this in recognition of what he did.
It just goes to show that no-one should be judged on race, colour, creed or sexuality, but instead for what good they do.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: guest on July 20, 2013, 05:40:12 PM
Not got a problem with gay people (cousin is gay) but pardoning people for "offences" which they WERE guilty of at the time is PC nonsense.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: 4candles on July 20, 2013, 06:31:09 PM
I understand your point, rizla, and indeed it has been said that if Turing is accorded this 'privilege', then it will open the floodgates for a multitude of similar claims for retrospective justice.

However, without Turing's work, we might all be speaking German, and have no computers. His efforts were rewarded at the time by being persecuted into suicide, so I believe it's right that he should be a 'special case'.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: renluop on July 20, 2013, 07:22:23 PM
Does pardon equate to forgiveness? I'm not sure which is appropriate in cases such as this. Royal pardons are the way for the Crown, that can do no wrong, to wipe the slate clean of a conviction wrongly imposed. In Turing's case the conviction was correct at the time and the punishment option selected by him was legal. Therefore how can the Crown wipe the slate clean of a wrongly imposed conviction?

The whole idea is a nonsense! But some other way to restore his memory to its true worth needs be found. How, without unscrambling metaphorical eggs is the problem for those cleverer than I.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: guest on July 20, 2013, 08:28:38 PM
I understand your point, rizla, and indeed it has been said that if Turing is accorded this 'privilege', then it will open the floodgates for a multitude of similar claims for retrospective justice.

However, without Turing's work, we might all be speaking German, and have no computers. His efforts were rewarded at the time by being persecuted into suicide, so I believe it's right that he should be a 'special case'.

Turing was a genius but unless we are going to retrospectively "pardon" everyone who was found guilty of a crime which is no longer a crime then its PC nonsense.

Its like Blair "apologising" for the potato famine in Ireland (and BTW I have LOTS of ancestors who died there) - total unmitigated nonsense, designed for nothing other than puffing up the profile of the resident prime minister.

I would much rather see Turing´s conviction stand as it serves better to recognise the ignorance and religious nonsense of this country in years past - and in years future if the muslims get their way.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: UncleUB on July 21, 2013, 08:48:54 AM
Not got a problem with gay people (cousin is gay) but pardoning people for "offences" which they WERE guilty of at the time is PC nonsense.

I'm with Rizla on this one.

You cannot say he is a special case because of what he did for the war effort as this could open the floodgates for many,many more who see themselves as 'special' cases.
Knowing this country it could end up costing the taxpayer millions.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
hmmm..  Having listened to both sides, there are some good points raised.

There is no doubt that he was treated badly.
Yes it was unlawful at the time.
The whole issue surrounding his conviction iirc was a bit weird and almost smells of some sort of conspiracy. ie after he reported being burgled, and why wasnt his lover imprisoned/convicted.  But obviously he was in a vulnerable position I suppose.

It could well open floodgates..  what about Oscar Wilde (mind you wasnt he also into young male/paedophilia), but there must be more.

-----

Rizla also said something in his last post that I personally do find quite scary and its not only homosexuality that could be an issue.

This could well become a hot topic, so if you follow on please proceed with caution.   There is a fine line between racism (umm its not racist more religion?), being PC, and being too PC.... and being scared to voice fears, for fear of being banded anti-whatever.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: renluop on July 21, 2013, 03:20:19 PM
Turing was a genius but unless we are going to retrospectively "pardon" everyone who was found guilty of a crime which is no longer a crime then its PC nonsense.
I see another danger. If crimes committed according to previous laws can be pardoned (excused) retrospectively, what is to stop  the idea being turned on its head. What a beautiful idea for a State ; to make something you did in lawfully 2010, say, criminal, then arraign you and put you in prison for that!

The ideas raised by the baying chatterers do not come from democracy, however much they seem worthy.

We should have no truck with retrospective legislation, but sadly it has intruded in some tax legislation, I belive.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: JGO on July 21, 2013, 07:59:40 PM

"The ideas raised by the baying chatterers do not come from democracy, however much they seem worthy."

They seem to be guilty of muddled thinking.
Ignoring Turin's crimes ( and no one has mentioned suicide ! ) his contribution to code breaking and computers seem well worth a memorial. It would not be the first time a criminal gave good service to the country - non of us are absolutly perfect. How about a Turin scholarship - more use than a statue/pigeon roost !

Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: 4candles on July 22, 2013, 03:38:21 PM
Many thanks for all the interesting comments.

The OP was made in light of the welcome advances in recent years in equality for gay people. It just seemed so unfair that a war hero should come to such an ignominious end, yet now it would all be so different.

On reflection, I am rapidly coming round to rizla's point of view.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: kitz on July 26, 2013, 06:41:36 PM
I see another danger. If crimes committed according to previous laws can be pardoned (excused) retrospectively, what is to stop  the idea being turned on its head. What a beautiful idea for a State ; to make something you did in lawfully 2010, say, criminal, then arraign you and put you in prison for that!

The ideas raised by the baying chatterers do not come from democracy, however much they seem worthy.

We should have no truck with retrospective legislation, but sadly it has intruded in some tax legislation, I belive.


hmmmm I will leave personal thoughts about 'throwing away the key' to one side...

But its interesting to see the position of Stuart Hall.   
At the time that the offences were carried out they supposedly carried a maximum sentence of 2 yrs.  Since then the law has changed and new legislation come into effect.   Hence the first sentencing of 15mths, which today on appeal has been doubled to 30 months.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: HPsauce on July 26, 2013, 06:58:02 PM
Since then the law has changed ............... Hence the first sentencing of 15mths, which today on appeal has been doubled to 30 months.
Hmm, that's not the reason as I read it and it's a bit more complex/subtle than that.
All the specific sentences (for multiple crimes IIRC) are unchanged, what was altered was the way the multiple sentences would run, i.e. one would now be consecutive.
It is common for multiple sentences applied at the same time to run concurrently. The Attorney General appealed this on the basis that the overall effect would be too lenient in this case given the scope of the offences. This argument was accepted it seems.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: kitz on July 26, 2013, 10:16:17 PM
I must admit I'd not read it anywhere, its what was said on the news this morning, but before today's events and some guy explaining why only 15 months was originally given.  I'm sure I heard him say that some of the laws weren't the same and back then could only be classed as assault.

Yet now I've just heard mention that a lot was to do with his attitude and arrogance and calling his accusers liars.  I guess i should go reading instead os listening lol
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: HPsauce on July 26, 2013, 10:25:40 PM
There was an upper limit on the sentence (for each conviction) which was 5 years at the time of the offences (over 25 years ago IIRC).
It is now 10 years (not sure from what precise date) for more recent offences, but both those upper limits are for more extreme cases.
The courts felt it was appropriate to use an 18-month sentence (out of a 5 year maximum).

Not knowing what the guidelines are for intermediate sentences it's difficult to say whether a more recent set of similar offences would result in a higher sentence.
This organisation sets the rules independently: http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing-guidelines.htm   
Quote
The Sentencing Council is an independent, non-departmental public body of the Ministry of Justice and replaced the Sentencing Guidelines Council and the Sentencing Advisory Panel in April 2010.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: 4candles on December 24, 2013, 12:18:42 AM
And lo, it came to pass...

Royal pardon for Turing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315)
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: burakkucat on December 24, 2013, 12:38:47 AM
b*cat is suitably impressed.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: renluop on December 24, 2013, 09:38:02 AM
Good that it has been granted: even so he was convicted under the law at the time. My fear is that we may be on the track to further injustices. This is in the matter of allegations of paedophile activities of elderly men going back several decades.

The danger I see is convictions handed down for or including matters that would not have been convictible at the time, or considered minor. Retrospective changes to law, de jure or de facto, are IMO abbhorrent.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: broadstairs on December 24, 2013, 01:18:44 PM
I dont know much about Turing's specific case but as I understand it the prosecution was for an act between consenting adults and if true such treatment was appalling.

I do not expect it to have any bearing on the current cases going before the courts which are completely different. What I do think likely is for a groundswell of opinion that will expect the many men who were similarly prosecuted and convicted for the same crime to get a pardon, which to me seems not unreasonable.

Stuart
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: renluop on December 24, 2013, 03:22:48 PM
Just in case it is thought that I am making a connection with current cases, I am not in the way that Stuart might seem to be implying. It's just that I feel, that as much as we  cure one injustice, we are so capable of creating others.
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: broadstairs on December 24, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
Apologies - I did not mean to imply that. I was trying (perhaps not very well) to express my own opinion and perhaps my words have been coloured by what I have read elsewhere on the subject.

Stuart
Title: Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
Post by: renluop on December 24, 2013, 04:38:12 PM
No bovver bruvver :D