Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: kitz on July 11, 2013, 07:47:29 PM

Title: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2013, 07:47:29 PM
Just documenting this because Ive just spent 1.5 hrs on the phone to various people trying to find out what is going on.   Hopefully it will serve as a record for others as they also come off Be*

This is the email from Be* which started it

Quote
Looks like something's gone wrong! BT have told us that there is an ongoing cease order for your landline.
The cease date is 19/07/2013. Please check with your telephone provider what the reason is and contact us on 0808 101 3430. Please bear in mind that if our service gets disconnected, we may need to charge you a 25 re-connection fee as we'd need to send a BT engineer to your local telephone exchange.

Phoned up new ISP who advise me they haven't done anything with my landline yet and only placed an order for broadband migration.  Guy at Plusnet checked and double checked for me - understanding the implications of a cease.

Phone up Be* to advise them that perhaps this mail has been sent out by mistake, but Be* say theyve been notified that there is a cease of service on my landline.  I cant quite determine if 'cease of service on my landline' means cease of landline which the email implies... or if it could be a cease of broadband service on my landline.   Either way it should not be a cease, but should in fact be a migration.

Be then tell me that I havent advised them that Im leaving..   which I damn well did...  I went through all the sales spiel when they then passed me over to retentions and tried to offer me a deal with Sky.

Plusnet assure me they have used my MAC and it should be a straight forward migration, perhaps Be have sent out wrong email.

Finally call to BT - and being passed around various depts who confirm that they cant see any cease order on my line although they can see that a change of broadband providers is in progress.

So hopefully no cease, and its just very misleading info from Be  :fingers:


Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 11, 2013, 08:20:34 PM
Quote
So hopefully no cease, and its just very misleading info from Be  :fingers:

Hopefully so and once migrated, you can forget them.  :)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 11, 2013, 10:08:11 PM
Exactly the same three-ring circus (complete with the same email) happened to me on my migration from BE to PN.  It was spurious, but obviously causes unnecessary anxiety to those EUs informed enough to understand the implications had it all been true.
Be were lss than helpful.  Completely useless in fact.  PN were quite helpful.  I gues now we know why it was time to leave Be.  It can only get worse.  :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2013, 10:25:05 PM
>>> obviously causes unnecessary anxiety to those EUs informed enough to understand the implications had it all been true

Exactly!    I got in and saw the email and got straight on the phone to PN asked what the heck was going on

>>>  Be were lss than helpful.  Completely useless in fact.  PN were quite helpful.

Ditto!   
Very surprised Be support is generally first class and I cant fault them.  In this area though chocolate teapot comes to mind as they couldnt give me any solid information at all.

Yet the guy at PN understood the implications of cease and why I was concerned.  He checked couldnt see anything and then asked if I minded holding whilst he went through everything to double check.

BT passed me around a bit.  Got sick of having to say the same thing over and over & having to repeatedly verify who I was  (left this feedback for them ;) )   In the end I did get through to someone who could give me the information I needed...  and didnt instead try and sell me BT Infinity!

>>> Exactly the same three-ring circus (complete with the same email)

That makes me feel a bit better thank you -  The reason Im documenting this is because I had a feeling that others may also have to go through this too and wonder wth is going on.  The words " BT have told us that there is an ongoing cease order for your landline." doesnt normally forebode well.

>>> I gues now we know why it was time to leave Be.  It can only get worse.

So sad, they were such a damn good ISP in their time  :'(






Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 13, 2013, 12:09:47 PM
and another slightly misworded email

Quote
We're sorry to hear that you've changed your mind about your order for BE Broadband.

It would have been nice if they could have said something more appropriate like "Sorry to hear you are wanting to leave us".

The emails are obviously standard but they should at least fit the circumstances, this is about the first gripe Ive had about Be CS not being up to scratch, as normally they are spot on.    I guess they dont care if youre leaving. :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: guest on July 14, 2013, 11:12:09 AM
That's normal. As soon as they see a request to move landline rental it will trigger that email. No idea why it triggers the email but it does - and it has since 2005 IME.

The other thing you should watch for is the spurious charges of 31.68 (if you were on Pro) which Be will automatically apply to your account when you leave - its an extra month's subs and it gets applied to everyone who leaves AFAIK. Again this is something they have always done (since 2005 anyway) and it has nothing to do with not giving proper notice. Of course you don't get hit with the charge until you have left so you can't raise a ticket, you have to phone up. They will pretend that they don't know what you're talking about but they damn well do as they've had thousands of calls for refunds. Its fraud IMHO.

Oh O2 don't do the same, its just Be.

Edit - I remember now, its the express cancellation charge which gets applied to everyone, regardless of whether you used it or not. Been a "bug" in their system since 2005. Damn handy moneymaking bug mmmm?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 14, 2013, 12:28:44 PM
>>> As soon as they see a request to move landline rental

Thats the point..  Im with BT for my landline..  and not moving it (yet).   
Its only my adsl thats going across atm and nothing to do with my phone :(

>>> its the express cancellation charge which gets applied to everyone

Cheers for the reminder, Ive seen lots of people hit with this in the past...  so I'll have to watch my bank account :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: guest on July 14, 2013, 03:11:26 PM
I presume you are going to use Plusnet when you migrate for line rental though? If so then that's what's triggering the "cease" email from Be. You have a compulsory 14 day cool-off period when you want to change line rental so presumably you placed your order with Plusnet on 5 July?

Moving line rental from BT to a BT subsidiary probably complicates stuff somewhat but that "cease" email is only generated when Be "see" a change in the line "provider" is going to happen.

I got one when I moved from Be->Sky last year but in 2006 I didn't when I moved from Be->UK Online. They still applied the "express cancellation" charge though ;)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 14, 2013, 04:50:12 PM
>> Plusnet when you migrate for line rental though?

Yes I will be doing,  but that hasnt even been ordered yet.   -  Even BT arent aware of anything being on my line.   Plusnet assure me they havent placed landline order yet, this has been checked and double checked.  Someone also independently checked this for me and confirms that there is nothing marked on my landline other than change of broadband provider due 19th.   So its  BS from Be* :(

>> placed your order with Plusnet on 5 July?

Nope -  because Im an ex customer believe it or not its a bit of a farce and you cant upgrade via the normal path to fttc using your old account and it has to be done manually (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12660.msg239469.html#msg239469).  So it wasnt until Thurs 11th that they got my MAC started my broadband order.   The MAC from Be is dated the 5th though.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: guest on July 14, 2013, 07:32:11 PM
Odd that its 14 days exactly but meh, life's too short etc :)

I always found the "much vaunted" Be support to be distinctly average and Be's CRM system is worse than Sky's, so who knows....
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 15, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
The other thing you should watch for is the spurious charges of 31.68 (if you were on Pro) which Be will automatically apply to your account when you leave - its an extra month's subs and it gets applied to everyone who leaves AFAIK. Again this is something they have always done (since 2005 anyway) and it has nothing to do with not giving proper notice. ...
Its fraud IMHO.

Edit - I remember now, its the express cancellation charge which gets applied to everyone, regardless of whether you used it or not. Been a "bug" in their system since 2005. Damn handy moneymaking bug mmmm?
I think your memory is letting you down a bit here, Rizzla.  I looked very carefully into this when I migrated to PN myself.  What you call the  'extra month's subs' is for the period from when you give them the required 1 month's notice, and, it is clearly stated in it's T&C's.  Of course you can actually leave anytime you want during the month period you have to give them and pay for, so for some, scheduling the move towards the end of the period will maximise the value you get for that. Having said that I did find that I was actually rebated some of the amount I had already prepaid that overlapped with the notice period.  So, although I agree that their CS has gone down a rabbit hole somewhere (if, as you say, it ever was as great as some people thought), they didn't defraud me of a penny.  Maybe that aspect has changed since your recollections of 2006?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 15, 2013, 06:55:22 PM
>>  Odd that its 14 days exactly

I think that is co-incidence and more to do with the fact that the 19th is the day Im scheduled for the engineer visit for fttc - which was chosen by me as it was the only day this week when Im able to be in all morning/afternoon.   

Im tending to believe that BTw have advised Be of the 19th being the date fttc is due to go live on my line and theyve been sloppy about which automated email notification that they send out to the customer. 
In my experience this is the first time that Be have been useless when I query something.  Normally they are spot on and even the first line support staff know what you are talking about when you ring up.  To me it just kind of reeks a bit of we dont care now that youre leaving attitude.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: guest on July 16, 2013, 02:40:01 PM
The other thing you should watch for is the spurious charges of 31.68 (if you were on Pro) which Be will automatically apply to your account when you leave - its an extra month's subs and it gets applied to everyone who leaves AFAIK. Again this is something they have always done (since 2005 anyway) and it has nothing to do with not giving proper notice. ...
Its fraud IMHO.

Edit - I remember now, its the express cancellation charge which gets applied to everyone, regardless of whether you used it or not. Been a "bug" in their system since 2005. Damn handy moneymaking bug mmmm?
I think your memory is letting you down a bit here, Rizzla.  I looked very carefully into this when I migrated to PN myself.  What you call the  'extra month's subs' is for the period from when you give them the required 1 month's notice, and, it is clearly stated in it's T&C's

I'm afraid its not that Colin. Its the express cancellation charge and if it didn't get applied to you then you are the first person I've heard of that hasn't been hit with it.

I still have the email from 2006 where they apologised due to a "system error" - same "system error" in 2012, just slightly more expensive in 2012. Must have been an extremely lucrative bug.

To make this clear - I gave them the required notice and they got paid for that; the 31.68 was charged AFTER I left. They refunded it just as they did in 2006 as they were paid for the notice period.

YMMV of course but every single person I recommended Be to has had that charge incorrectly applied.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: guest on July 16, 2013, 02:44:54 PM
To me it just kind of reeks a bit of we dont care now that youre leaving attitude.

That's what they've always been like kitz. Soon as you leave you lose all access to (historical) account data - they claim its deleted but of course its not.

Frankly I found the Bulgarian support vastly over-rated - fine until they had to deal with Openreach; bloody useless when they did.

YMMV of course.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 03:19:49 PM
Another wrongly worded email

Quote
Looks like something's gone wrong! BT have told us that your phone line has ceased.

Really sorry but we've had to suspend your BE service as we need an active BT line for our service to work; you'll need to get your BT line working soon (within 30 days) or we'll have to cancel your service.

I tried to log in, but I cant.  My account has already been deleted.

Quote
Unfortunately your account has already been cancelled and you can no longer access it.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on July 19, 2013, 03:35:00 PM
Any idea what actual event has triggered that, or is it something mysterious in the bowels of BT's systems?  >:D
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: roseway on July 19, 2013, 03:37:37 PM
What a bunch of clowns. :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on July 19, 2013, 04:02:12 PM
What a bunch of clowns. :(
Who though?  :-X
Is it BT (which part?) for doing a "cease" on the phone line when it's presumably not appropriate?
Or is it Be for interpreting some other event as a "cease" or just sending an incorrect scary message that actually doesn't represent reality?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: roseway on July 19, 2013, 04:42:04 PM
I'm presuming (maybe incorrectly) that the internet connection is still working, and that Be are the bunch of clowns.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 19, 2013, 04:54:51 PM
Big sigh.  :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 05:01:37 PM
Im not saying too much atm...   Ive already had several rants today via mobile facebook... well it was something to do whilst waiting.

I am connected now, but I had over 6hrs of downtime.  Im not too impressed with how things went today and its been a bit of a comedy of errors and botch up jobs all round..  and Quinns..... whose engineers arent even given the right tools to do the job properly.

Just feeling a bit tarnished at todays events atm....  but happy to show this....    so it aint all bad and could be a hell of a lot worse.  :) 
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2847068365.png&hash=bbe5c30718de5018764b7e20d86a082a)



Im very doubtful about putting the Huawei on atm to get proper stats...  I may be pushing my luck because of the number of resyncs, reconnects etc that Ive already had to do and I really need to let things settle down before messing any more in case the DLM clobbers me.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on July 19, 2013, 05:05:14 PM
Glad you got to FTTC after all.
Obviously what most of us are interested in is how to avoid, or prepare for and mitigate, the stupid things that can or do go wrong on the way.  ;)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 05:25:42 PM
>>> and that Be are the bunch of clowns.

Not really, they just sent out the wrong mail,   Its a combination of all involved I guess.   At least it wasnt a proper cease.

Be for confusing things,
BTw for using contractors
PN for still thinking I was adsl2+ and therefore not being able to authenticate on their network.
Quinns for not being able to do what I needed.   I dont blame the engineer himself who was pleasant enough and tried to help... but his tools and equipment were limited.  Id specifically ordered HWS, but he had no idea of this and is sent out literally with just a modem and vdsl plate and is paid per job to get in and out asap. 

 
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 05:28:50 PM
>>> prepare for and mitigate, the stupid things that can or do go wrong on the way.


Pray you get BTo and not a contractor.


-----
PS I bought Bacon and Extra Large Barm cakes which are still sat unopened.

Going free to any BToR guy who fancies a trip to Blackpool...  just bring your toolkit with you :D
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on July 19, 2013, 05:37:42 PM
specifically ordered HWS, but he had no idea of this
Anything to do with this: http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga02412.do  ;) ?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 06:26:36 PM
Yep. indeed. Quite a lot to do with that... and yes it was submitted by PN to BTw as HWS.

...  and Im sorry but Im outa here now... Ive really had enough for today...   but I'll leave you with this..

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1000864_10151560499307734_1143828052_n.jpg)


which was the location of an old LJU1 - if you look closely you can still see what was its center hole slightly to the left. 
This is connected by 25m of telephone cable - not CAT5 - to the site where the old NTE was.   The drawer opened easily over the LJU, but the VDSL socket is nearly 4cm deeper.   Bear this in mind when planning for vdsl. 
I still need to tack the modem cable out of the way and put the suspension files back in the drawer.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 19, 2013, 06:50:37 PM
D'oh!  ::)

When you feel 'up to it', you should inform PlusNet (via Bob Pullen, perhaps?) of the failure to install as per their order and insist that a proper, qualified Openreach engineer be booked to put things right.

As for the number of disconnects/reconnects that have happened today, they are not taken into account. According to the relevant SIN, the DLM will only intervene on the second day following service provision. Bald_Eagle1 will be the person to provide a 'fuller translation'.  ;)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 19, 2013, 08:32:44 PM
D'oh!  ::)
As for the number of disconnects/reconnects that have happened today, they are not taken into account. According to the relevant SIN, the DLM will only intervene on the second day following service provision. Bald_Eagle1 will be the person to provide a 'fuller translation'.  ;)
Yes, B*Kat is correct.  DLM will not interven until the NEXT day (assuming sync has been achieved).
Quote
but the VDSL socket is nearly 4cm deeper.
Yes, ridiculously big and ugly.  Who needs it, really?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 19, 2013, 09:09:14 PM
A competent jobbing builder or handyman should be capable of fitting a recessed backing-box into that wall and by doing so, will reduce the depth of the protuberance.

b*cat wonders if B*Sheep might fancy taking Mrs Sheep on a day trip to Blackpool? He could drop Senior Management off at an amusement arcade (by the Tower), nip around to The Kittery and perform some quality remedial corrections.  :D
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 19, 2013, 09:24:39 PM
A competent jobbing builder or handyman should be capable of fitting a recessed backing-box into that wall and by doing so, will reduce the depth of the protuberance.
Easier (and cheaper) to remove the SSFP and use a dongle!  :-X
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 09:43:43 PM
>>> Easier (and cheaper) to remove the SSFP and use a dongle!

I may do that..  I also have an adsl filtered faceplate (ADSL V1.0) which I may be able to incorporate?
I also need to check what was done this am..  but I have a sneaky feeling its similar to this (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,10957.msg214243.html#msg214243).   Not going further on that until I have chance to pull the book case out to get to where the original NTE was.   Ive only just put the books back in an hour ago and killed my back moving it, so may have to wait a bit on that before I start making claims.



>>>   DLM will not interven until the NEXT day (assuming sync has been achieved).

Thank you vm for that information.

Im now on a mission to put the huawei on tonight and scratting around for the right links  :D
I think Ive now got Bald Eagle's scripts (http://www.freewarefiles.com/HG612-Modem-Stats_program_84567.html) - need to read the instructions.
Confirmed that the huawei seems to be successfully unlocked with Asbo's FW (http://huaweihg612hacking.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/hg612_unlock_instructions_v1-3.pdf)

okies...  here we go... wish me luck...  lol not sure if I should be trying today..  but wth :D

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
Reproduction of the SIN is permitted only in its entirety, to disseminate information on the BT Network within your organisation. You must not edit or amend any SIN or reproduce extracts. You must not remove BT trademarks, notices, headings or copyright markings.

However, this is the jist of it:-

DLM constantly monitors & manages connections for as long as the product exists in order to balance speed & stability.

When first installed, the connections starts on a wide open profile, allowing US & DS speeds to run at the chosen service's upper limit


DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected during the first day of service.
Otherwise, it will will wait until the 2nd before deciding if intervtion is necessary as long as the connection has been in sync for at least 15 minutes during the first day.

If DLM does intervene it will set a profile with a maximum rate and a minimum rate, where the minimum rate is set at approximately half of the maximum rate.
The reason for the minimum rate is to ensure that the line does not train at a rate significantly below the level the line should be able to achieve. If this happened, the line is likely to remain at a very low rate until a re-train is forced by the user by powering off the modem.

We have experienced 'stuck' profiles, sometimes for many weeks, even following engineering works where the source of the initial 'fault(s)' have been eliminated.

On these occasions, an engineer visit is required to check line conditions again & assuming everything is still O.K. a DLM reset (or re-calculation) can be requested by the engineer.

DLM sets the line profile, and this should not be interfered with by ISPs/users setting rates, SNR margins etc. at the modem.
Indeed, with only one exception that I am aware of, any attempts to tweak SNR and/or sync speeds via the modem have been unsuccessful.


Despite monitoring quite a number of connections, we still don't really know what is classed as instability severe enough to cause DLM to take corrective action on day one.

We are also unsure of the details of what causes DLM to take action at other times (usually between 04:00 & 06:00, when it is assumed a resync at a lower speed, possibly applying interleaving will have the least disruptive effect).

e.g. following a recent engineer's visit to investigate sustained lower speeds, DLM was reset/re-calculated at around 16:00 on this profile for my connection:-

0.128M-40M Downstream, Interleaving OFF - 0.128M-10M Upstream, Interleaving OFF

Actual sync speeds were only DS 20308 Kbps, US 4872 Kbps

According to my connection stats, DLM kicked in at 04:45 the following morning, setting this profile:-

12.5M-25 Downstream, Interleaving OFF - 3M-6M Upstream, Interleaving OFF

DLM then set a slightly lower profile at 06:15 the same morning, :-

12.5M-25 Downstream, Interleaving OFF - 2.5M-5M Upstream, Interleaving OFF, which Plusnet advise me is still active.

It is currently in sync at DS 19023 Kbps, US 4333 Kbps.


So, a few infrequent resyncs during day one will probably not have much of an effect & it would be 'useful' to grab some connection stats for baseline data, just in case.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 10:11:04 PM
There was a lot of syncs earlier in the day.  I even tried a full reset of the router to factory settings :/

Ok Im online with the Huawei, cant seem to access the interface though
"The server at 192.168.1.1 is taking too long to respond"

Ive set this PC's IP to 192.168.1.100, have I missed anything?



Speedtest is (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2847605809.png&hash=ae9714a25b1705dbae92bbe01aa92b67), so I may have lost a bit of sync speed.

----

edited to add, cant get online (internet)at all if I use port 2
... and does it always take about 15mins to get ISP internet access after a change of setttings?

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: UncleUB on July 19, 2013, 10:23:39 PM
Yep. indeed. Quite a lot to do with that... and yes it was submitted by PN to BTw as HWS.

...  and Im sorry but Im outa here now... Ive really had enough for today...   but I'll leave you with this..

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1000864_10151560499307734_1143828052_n.jpg)


which was the location of an old LJU1 - if you look closely you can still see what was its center hole slightly to the left. 
This is connected by 25m of telephone cable - not CAT5 - to the site where the old NTE was.   The drawer opened easily over the LJU, but the VDSL socket is nearly 4cm deeper.   Bear this in mind when planning for vdsl. 
I still need to tack the modem cable out of the way and put the suspension files back in the drawer.

On the faceplate it should say instead of Openreach...Doesn't open,reach in. ;D

On a serious note,the clown who fitted the faceplate should have checked if the drawer opened..or perhaps he did and made a quick exit  >:(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 10:36:13 PM
>>> .Doesn't open,reach in    :lol: :lol:

>>> or perhaps he did and made a quick exit

In all fairness That is kind of my fault...  Id removed the drawer because last night Id drilled bore holes ready to run extension cable where I wanted it to go. 
All the cabling and electric sockets are hidden under and behind that drawer, and the new holes I drilled allowed a nice run of about 1.5 m cable which would have reached the outside wall direct above where the old NTE was.  The drawer was out so provide easy access and trying to make things easy so he could hook up the old LJU to the new NTE.  This wasnt used in the end because he couldnt run external cable. By attempting to make things easy, the obvious wasnt spotted.  I never dreamed that the old extension would be converted to the NTE :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 19, 2013, 10:40:58 PM
There was a lot of syncs earlier in the day.  I even tried a full reset of the router to factory settings :/

Ok Im online with the Huawei, cant seem to access the interface though
"The server at 192.168.1.1 is taking too long to respond"

Ive set this PC's IP to 192.168.1.100, have I missed anything?


What's your ROUTER's IP address & how are you physically connecting the modem/PC/ROUTER?

Quote
Speedtest is (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2847605809.png&hash=ae9714a25b1705dbae92bbe01aa92b67), so I may have lost a bit of sync speed.

----

That's only throughput & doesn't necessarily mean a loss of sync speed.

What's your IP Profile from the further diagnostics at http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/


Quote
edited to add, cant get online (internet)at all if I use port 2
... and does it always take about 15mins to get ISP internet access after a change of setttings?

The modem's LAN1 port provides internet access & its LAN2 port provides access to its stats.

I have a Netgear WNR1000v3 ROUTER & it takes around 6 minutes or so to regain internet access.
I believe it does take up to 15 minutes when using the Technicolor ROUTER.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 10:58:17 PM
Okay Im trying to get some first day stats, before the day is over.

Not sure what Ive done wrong.   

I can connect to the Huawei on LAN port 2 direct from my PC if the IP is static set to 192.168.1.100  - Huawei had no DSL at this point.

Now I have the Huawei -> PN router -> PC

Router is plugged in Lan1 of the modem.   
Router IP 192.168.1.254
PC IP 192.168.1.100

-----------

I was just about to hit send and I saw your reply.

IP Profile for your line is - 77.43 Mbps


>>>  & its LAN2 port provides access to its stats.

Ok Im being thick now.... so I cant access the internet and line stats at the same time :doh:  ??? ?
So how do the scripts work if the LAN card on the PC is connected to the TG582n for internet access?


Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: roseway on July 19, 2013, 11:05:18 PM
I don't want to sound competitive, but you can use DSLstats with the HG612 - that's the device the program was originally developed for.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 19, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
Okay Im trying to get some first day stats, before the day is over.

Not sure what Ive done wrong.   

I can connect to the Huawei on LAN port 2 direct from my PC if the IP is static set to 192.168.1.100  - Huawei had no DSL at this point.

Now I have the Huawei -> PN router -> PC

Router is plugged in Lan1 of the modem.   
Router IP 192.168.1.254
PC IP 192.168.1.100

-----------





Quote
I was just about to hit send and I saw your reply.

IP Profile for your line is - 77.43 Mbps


As IP Profile is 96.79% of sync speed, that IP Profile means it is currently in sync at 80 Mbps - more likely to be 79999 Kbps(assuming a new PPP session has updated the IP Profile).


Quote
>>>  & its LAN2 port provides access to its stats.

Ok Im being thick now.... so I cant access the internet and line stats at the same time :doh:  ??? ?
So how do the scripts work if the LAN card on the PC is connected to the TG582n for internet access?

To access the internet & stats at the same time from the same PC, an ethernet cable needs to run from the MODEM's LAN2 port to a spare ROUTER port.

Once you have that set up, you can access the modem's GUI from any PC connected to the network, either via ethernet or wirelessly.

Alternatively you could connect wirelessly for internet access (dynamically allocated IP address) & a direct ethernet PC to modem connection (fixed IP address of 192.168.1.xxx).

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 11:17:41 PM
I don't want to sound competitive, but you can use DSLstats with the HG612 - that's the device the program was originally developed for.

Thank you eric  :flower:  The problem I seem to be having is connecting to the HG612 from the PC :(

Ok have some line stats...   I have a Laptop here that I was supposed to be fixing today, so just hooked that up to LAN2, grabbed the stats, then put it back on the network.

Code: [Select]
Mode VDSL2 
Traffic type PTM 
DSL synchronization status Up 
DSL up time 4758 

Line Status
Help
  Downstream Upstream
Attainable rate (kbit/s) 101664 35452
SNR margin (dB) 11.8 15.7
Line attenuation (dB) 0 0
Output power (dBmV) 14.3 5.3

Statistics
Help
 
Path 0
Path 1
  Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream
Line rate (kbit/s) 79999 20000 0 0
CRC errors 0 0 0 0
FEC errors 108 0 0 0
HEC errors 17 0 0 0


Quote
To access the internet & stats at the same time from the same PC, an ethernet cable needs to run from the MODEM's LAN2 port to a spare ROUTER port.

Thank you thank you!   That is the info I needed and hadnt seen mention of anywhere else.   Id sussed that it was something to do with LAN2 but just didnt know what...  okies, now I know what to do to get continuous stats  :thumbs:


Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 11:43:31 PM
Yes!

Thank you very much all involved for your help.
It looks like dslstats is successfully logging my stats atm :clap2:

It is quite easy when you know how and if all the needed info is in one place.  ::)  The one bit of missing info I didnt have was adding a 2nd LAN cable between the Huawei and the router.

-------------------

So.... I appear to be syncing at the 79,999 kbps (as predicted by BE)
...  and thats with an SNRm of 12dB & Interleaved.....  and on the end of 25m of dodgy internal wiring.

Well that was an unexpected turn up for the books.    The BT estimate was 62 Mbps   :clap:


Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 19, 2013, 11:54:28 PM
btw has anyone else noticed the Huawei runs a heck of a lot hotter than the ECI?
The ECI has been on all day and in heat.  The Huawei had only been on about 15mins not even connected to DSL and I noticed it was a lot hotter than the ECI.

--

15 mins to get a gateway with the TG582n is a PITA add on top of that the sync up time, and youre talking 20mins if you have a blimp or want to make any changes.   That aint too clever really. :(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 20, 2013, 12:24:17 AM
btw has anyone else noticed the Huawei runs a heck of a lot hotter than the ECI?
The ECI has been on all day and in heat.  The Huawei had only been on about 15mins not even connected to DSL and I noticed it was a lot hotter than the ECI.
What model is it Kitz?  Some 2Bs had a problem with insufficient heat sinking.  I can't say that I've expeienced any problems with the 3B

Quote
15 mins to get a gateway with the TG582n is a PITA add on top of that the sync up time, and youre talking 20mins if you have a blimp or want to make any changes.   That aint too clever really.
Well clearly something is wrong there, as it never takes even a fraction of that time for me.  Can you see anything in the TG582n event logs to suggest what the problem  might be?; but at first read this sounds more like a PN network issue than anything to do with the TG582n per se.  IME it takes 10-20secs for the modem to sync (look at the UA time in the modem stats) and the PPP connection connects within seconds of the VDSL PTM link becoming established.  The whole thing is generally up within 30secs.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 20, 2013, 12:48:19 AM
[I appear to be syncing at the 79,999 kbps (as predicted by BE)
...  and thats with an SNRm of 12dB & Interleaved.....  and on the end of 25m of dodgy internal wiring.

Well that was an unexpected turn up for the books.    The BT estimate was 62 Mbps   :clap:
Congratulations.  From your stats it looks like you are very close to your FTTC cabinet (e.g. perhaps around 100m or so?), and possibly the first (or one of the first) in there.

Of course you have so much attainable that the 12dB SNRm makes very little difference to you as the 80Mb/s DS cap will have the dominant effect.  Whether or not you get interleaving is still one of DLM's little mysteries.  My own recent experience (following some helpful BTOR maintenance on the D-side cabling while my line was up) is that I now have a very large interleaving depth, and 8ms delay; but unless you were an extreme gamer (which I'm not) it makes no practical difference compared to when Interleaving was turned off (except the previous odd CRCs are now FECs instead).

But, it's looking good!  ;D 

BTW (after Day 1) the impact of multiple resyncs in a 24hr period have IME a much more significant DLM effect (lasting months sometimes) than just transmission errors.  So, if you do have to work on the line/modem, a) power it off and b) leave it for at least 30mins before you power it back on again.  DLM should then ignore that as it recognises that user-initiated.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 01:33:59 AM
>>> What model is it Kitz?

Its a 3B,  Ive stood it on its side for now and it seems a lot better than when it was flat.

>>>  Can you see anything in the TG582n event logs to suggest what the problem

I was looking earlier when I was waiting. There is nothing obvious, it just says 'waiting to authenticate'.  Every time I resync, or even just change any settings on the internet side, then it takes about 15mins before I can use the connection again.  Sync doesnt take that long.

>>> From your stats it looks like you are very close to your FTTC cabinet (e.g. perhaps around 100m or so?)

haha thats just it... Im not..  and one of the reasons why I was a bit shocked myself.   8)
I have the exact figures somewhere from the PCP to the DP for this estate...  and then irrc there was another 100m of UG to the shared Joint Box.  Add on my distance from the JB to my house..  and then 25m of telephone extension, its more like 450m.  I was told it was decent gauge copper though.

All previous estimates have been around 60/65Mb at most.

>> 80Mb/s DS cap will have the dominant effect.

Indeed.  I am kinda used to that anyhow - has always been the case right through 512kbps, maxdsl and even on adsl2+ with annex_m I snuck in there at 24Mbs for a while until the Be MSAN started playing silly beggars.   I really hope that it was Be's MSAN (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12660.0.html) and its not followed me. 

---------
and whilst I was typing this I lost internet ..  It took at least 12 mins to come back up.   Lost internet..  not sync.

This is what it says in the router interface when it goes down
Quote
Link Status:   Connecting...

This is my Internet uptime from the TG582n
Uptime:   0 days, 0:02:53

and sync uptime from the HG612
DSL up time    13324  13324 seconds = 3.7 hrs


Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 20, 2013, 07:02:23 AM
This is just one thread in the Plusnet forum that mentions the issue:-

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,114808.msg989806.html#msg989806

Bob P mentions a known 8 minutes issue, but I have seen other users' posts here & there that mention up to 15 minutes for their connections.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: roseway on July 20, 2013, 07:08:19 AM
Quote
Its a 3B,  Ive stood it on its side for now and it seems a lot better than when it was flat.

Best of all, if it's practical for you, is to mount it on the wall. That's how it's intended to be mounted, and it will be cooler that way.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 20, 2013, 08:23:18 AM
This is just one thread in the Plusnet forum that mentions the issue:-

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,114808.msg989806.html#msg989806

Bob P mentions a known 8 minutes issue, but I have seen other users' posts here & there that mention up to 15 minutes for their connections.
Of course, thank you BE for reminding me of this.  :-[ I was of course referring to the time it normally takes IME, and even then I wasn't including the time for the router (TG582n) itself to boot (which is another minute or so if that is required), but just the time from when the PTM path becomes available.  As Kitz had so many  disconnects yesterday, she may well have fallen foul of the stale PPP connection.  But if it is happening like that in other circumstances then there is definitely something wrong.  I did wonder in passing if using a non-PN DNS at that point in the sequence would cause delays, but not of that order, I would hope?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 20, 2013, 08:38:33 AM
and whilst I was typing this I lost internet ..  It took at least 12 mins to come back up.   Lost internet..  not sync.

This is what it says in the router interface when it goes down
Quote
Link Status:   Connecting...

This is my Internet uptime from the TG582n
Uptime:   0 days, 0:02:53

and sync uptime from the HG612
DSL up time    13324  13324 seconds = 3.7 hrs
So if the modem itself has not resync'ed (up time=3.7hrs), then it looks like the you are losing the PPP connection (router up time=~3mins) instead for some reason.  If so, then perhaps a number of yesterday's problems (e.g. when it was perhaps the PPP connection that dropped out rather than the modem) will not even have been noticed by DLM.  Doesn't help much I know, but at least DLM shouldn't (I hope) 'punish' you for it.  It also gives evidence supporting why you may be falling foul of the 'stale' PPP connection issue BE has pointed to.
If you can stand it, you could try to diagnose it by manually disconnecting & reconnecting the PPP connection from within the Internet page of the TG582n.  You should also get info there about the PN concentrator and gateway(s) you get connected to.  This mau help to finger one that is causing you this grief.  HTH
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 20, 2013, 08:47:07 AM
Yes!


So.... I appear to be syncing at the 79,999 kbps (as predicted by BE)
...  and thats with an SNRm of 12dB & Interleaved.....  and on the end of 25m of dodgy internal wiring.

Well that was an unexpected turn up for the books.    The BT estimate was 62 Mbps   :clap:


It may be interesting to see your --pbParams data (that's where we can see attenuation, power & SNRM values per band plan).

It appears that an engineer's JDSU can report these, but the usual screen engineers use reports single values for the connection.
We now believe these single values are simply taken from the lowest frequency DS & US band plan, so don't always paint the whole picture (example attached).

For good measure, it may also be interesting to see your --stats data (amongst other data, that will show Interleaving depth, INP & delay etc.

Now that a large chunk of copper has probably been removed from the equation (from cabinet back to the exchange), it may also be interesting to see if your recent fluctuating stats have been eliminated.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ryant704 on July 20, 2013, 11:04:30 AM
I've been using a 3B version for 3/4 months now and I've not had any problems heat wise. It's cool 24/7, actually a lot better than I thought it was going to be.

As for the TG582n it doesn't actually support a VDSL2 [1] connection, what authenticate process type are you using?

I'm assuming if you don't have an option it's PPPoEoA, this could be the reason why it takes a while to authenticate as it shouldn't try and authenticate at the ATM level.

[1]http://www.technicolor.com/uploads/associated_materials/ds_technicolor_tg582n.pdf

Never mind forgot you are using it as a router! Though are you trying to authenticate via PPPoE?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 11:05:28 AM
>>> This is just one thread in the Plusnet forum that mentions the issue:-

Hmm interesting thank you.  May have to add something over on the portal forums.

>>> Best of all, if it's practical for you, is to mount it on the wall.

Will do some rejigging later cause Im still at the cable all over the place stage which needs tidying up... although tbh I dont think I like the idea of wall mounting.  Longer term, Id love to get an all in one unit, but that could be a while yet.

>>> then perhaps a number of yesterday's problems (e.g. when it was perhaps the PPP connection that dropped out rather than the modem) will not even have been noticed by DLM.

Earlier yesterday definitely were sync.  I was following the instructions on page 10 of the Plusnet troubleshooter booklet.  I couldnt get authenticated on to the PN network at all.   I worked my way through everything suggested in that booklet including a factory reset of the router.   Each time it suggests switching the BT modem off for 30 seconds.

Each and everytime authentication seems to take ages.  I will investigate further and do some proper logging.
Ive no idea why I lost the ppp session last night, but its a PITA when you have to wait ages before you can use the connection again because of trying to authenticate.


>>> It may be interesting to see your --pbParams data

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max:    Upstream rate = 35667 Kbps, Downstream rate = 101660 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:      35667 kbps        101660 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        5.3 dBm          14.3 dBm
============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  0.8     17.9    29.2     N/A    11.1    24.5    38.8

Signal Attenuation(dB):  0.9     17.8    29.0     N/A    11.1    24.5    38.8

        SNR Margin(dB):  15.8    16.3    15.7     N/A    11.5    12.1    11.8

         TX Power(dBm): -4.8    -25.3    4.8      N/A    12.0    7.4     7.2

#





As mentioned I will try some proper testing/logging later..  but since the sun is shining today... I hope to get out in to my garden this afty,  Ive not had chance to enjoy any of this weeks lovely weather yet :)   :sun:

 
Touch wood so far my SNRm has flatlined according to DSLstats .  Upstream SNRM is a nice steady 15.8 with occasional 15.9 dB and downstream a totally unwavering 11.8 dB. 
My connection hasnt been that steady, for that long, in weeks...  so lets hope it was the Be MSAN. 


Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 11:10:35 AM
Our posts crossed
I'm assuming if you don't have an option it's PPPoEoA, this could be the reason why it takes a while to authenticate as it shouldn't try and authenticate at the ATM level.
Never mind forgot you are using it as a router! Though are you trying to authenticate via PPPoE?

Type:   PPPoE
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ryant704 on July 20, 2013, 11:31:27 AM
I'm assuming you are one of the first on the cabinet, maybe the problem isn't your end?
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 11:51:03 AM
Dont seem to have any problems with sync, just authentication on to the ISPs network.  This would perhaps appear to be a PN or router issue.
The cab has been enabled for a few months, but I wasnt in a position to jump earlier.  However, a little birdie told me that Im on the 25th port.  ;)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ryant704 on July 20, 2013, 12:14:27 PM
I know your sync is fine, what I mean is your ISP (PN) haven't had a real end customer to test it. Maybe they have a few settings wrong there end, by first I mean so you will be the first to experience this. Possibly the first PN port?

I would contact PN, they have good customer service so shouldn't take you long!
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on July 20, 2013, 12:21:11 PM
Possibly the first PN port?
They've had quite a few, some having rather tricky "issues" along the way  >:D , but none that I've seen reported at the final stage like this.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 20, 2013, 01:57:46 PM
>>> What model is it Kitz?

Its a 3B,  Ive stood it on its side for now and it seems a lot better than when it was flat.

Perhaps you could do a 'Blue Peter' and make a stand (out of the base of a washing-up liquid bottle) to hold it vertical? The best cooling occurs when the long edge is the uppermost horizontal, meaning that the cables exit from the bottom.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: ColinS on July 20, 2013, 02:17:15 PM
Earlier yesterday definitely were sync.  I was following the instructions on page 10 of the Plusnet troubleshooter booklet.  I couldnt get authenticated on to the PN network at all.   I worked my way through everything suggested in that booklet including a factory reset of the router.   Each time it suggests switching the BT modem off for 30 seconds.
That's terrible!  :o
Quote
a factory reset of the router
That's the PN equivalent of 'please reinstall Windows' then?  :'(
Quote
Each time it suggests switching the BT modem off for 30 seconds
Please don't do that from now on. :no:  DLM monitors that number of resyncs by examining the recorded up time in each 15 mins time slot.  If there was 15 mins up-time in one time slot, and less than 15 mins in the next then it would record that a 'forced (i.e. unsolicited) resync' had occurred.  If at least two time slots back-to-back have no up time, it will (should  :-X) determine that this was a solicited resync e.g. following the EU powering down the line, and ignore it for the purposes of determining instability.
I know that Asbo has proved on another thread that (becuase of 'last gasp' communications between the modem and the DSLAM - at least the Huawei ones!) that powering it down prevents line-errors being recorded, which you would otherwise get if you just unplugged it from the line (either at the modem or NTE), which DLM would frown on.
At the other end of the spectrum from that which you are currently experiencing with your PN PPPoE, quite often (becuase the TG firmware has the wrong PPP timeouts set by PN) a modem resync will not be detected by PN's RADIUS servers, as it happens too quickly within the PPP timeout - But DLM has seen it (rather like the garden shed in Bill & Ben)!!!!!  :lol:
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 20, 2013, 04:00:59 PM
>>> What model is it Kitz?

Its a 3B,  Ive stood it on its side for now and it seems a lot better than when it was flat.

Perhaps you could do a 'Blue Peter' and make a stand (out of the base of a washing-up liquid bottle) to hold it vertical? The best cooling occurs when the long edge is the uppermost horizontal, meaning that the cables exit from the bottom.

FWIW, my HG612 modem(s) have been stood on the desk on their short edge, simply leaning against the wall at a slight angle for over 2 years now & all versions have run pretty cool - even when the room gets very warm.

This includes the old version B modem that supposedly experienced overheating problems:-

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgbox.com%2FaciI5Po9.jpg&hash=1cb26c267a6101a6fdc48791963c3222)



If/when I ever get round to refurbishing my office, the HG612 will be wall mounted, with the cables exiting from the bottom.


 
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 20, 2013, 04:14:27 PM

>>> It may be interesting to see your --pbParams data

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max:    Upstream rate = 35667 Kbps, Downstream rate = 101660 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:      35667 kbps        101660 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        5.3 dBm          14.3 dBm
============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  0.8     17.9    29.2     N/A    11.1    24.5    38.8

Signal Attenuation(dB):  0.9     17.8    29.0     N/A    11.1    24.5    38.8

        SNR Margin(dB):  15.8    16.3    15.7     N/A    11.5    12.1    11.8

         TX Power(dBm): -4.8    -25.3    4.8      N/A    12.0    7.4     7.2

#


That looks like a really, really good 450m connection.
Nothing to do with being associated with Plusnet & the owner of a site that deals with broadband matters, I presume  :lol:


Here's the pbParams data from another 450m connection to an ECI DSLAM:-

Code: [Select]
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 9502 Kbps, Downstream rate = 46048 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 10641 Kbps, Downstream rate = 47007 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:       9502 kbps         46048 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        6.9 dBm          11.0 dBm
============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB): 2.2 32.8 50.6   N/A 16.1 42.4 66.5
Signal Attenuation(dB): 2.2 32.7 50.2   N/A 16.1 42.4 66.5
        SNR Margin(dB): 5.5 5.4 5.0   N/A 5.6 5.6 5.6
         TX Power(dBm): -3.6 -9.0 6.4   N/A 8.6 7.4 -4.2
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 07:06:00 PM
Is that yours BE?  :(  :'(

One thing I notice is the Tx power seems low compared to mine.  Im a novice when it comes vdsl, so dont know what the normal parameters are for  FTTC, but certainly on adsl you'd expect a specific range.
Has anyone done a study on average Tx power on vdsl.... this probably would have been something I would have done in the past days when I had more time (ok I did because back in 2003 I never understood why mine was low compared to everyone else's - which lead me to the discovery of power cut back & PSD masks)

Secondly quality of copper is going to make a difference, a lot of this will depend on the age of your estate.  Over the years BT have used various gauge copper 0.5mm and 0.3mm as well as copper coated aluminium.  With vdsl obviously the chunk of E side has been eliminated, and D side is going to be a lot dependant on when BT first put the lines to an estate in. 

Although this estate is newish, its fed from a much older DP which definitely uses 05.mm gauge from the cab.  The cab Im actually connected to is probably one of the first installed in this town and the DPs put in during an era when the price of copper wasnt such of a concern as it has been over about the past 20 yrs.  No idea what gauge is used on the UG feed for the estate, but since Im near the beginning its a relatively short length to the JBF Im on, compared to the overall distance anyhow.

I moved into this estate shortly before adsl became available, back in the days when no-one ever thought of things like attenuation and loop length.  Although I am very close to the exchange because this estate is fed via an old cab and DP the loop length is relatively long and literally does go all round the houses ..  but even so Ive always been able to exceed estimations and at once upon a time I had a rock steady full 24Mbps down 2.6 Mbps up with Be*.... well until more recently that is.

I think with vdsl its going to be a bit more difficult to estimate speeds as accurately as we could with adsl2+ because so much more is dependant on the type of copper used by BT locally.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 20, 2013, 07:23:02 PM
Is that yours BE?  :(  :'(

No I believe that is a service based in Ewhurst, which has received the attention of an Eagle-eye.  ;)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 07:39:01 PM
That's terrible!  :o
That's the PN equivalent of 'please reinstall Windows' then?  :'(
Quote
Each time it suggests switching the BT modem off for 30 seconds
Please don't do that from now on. :no:


I know, but Im not the type that wanted to phone up PN just for the hell of it...  and perhaps then be referred back by asking if Id done all the troubleshooting in their booklet.   I wanted to be able to fix it myself without spending time hanging on the phone.

I didnt realise that they had my profile down as adsl2+ in their systems rather than fttc, which is why I couldnt authenticate properly.

Quote
DLM monitors that number of resyncs by examining the recorded up time in each 15 mins time slot.  If there was 15 mins up-time in one time slot, and less than 15 mins in the next then it would record that a 'forced (i.e. unsolicited) resync' had occurred.  If at least two time slots back-to-back have no up time, it will (should  :-X) determine that this was a solicited resync e.g. following the EU powering down the line, and ignore it for the purposes of determining instability.

and that is exactly the reason why earlier in this thread, that once Id done all the suggested 'trouble shooting' that I wanted to let my line settle for a while before putting the Huawei on and I didnt want to push my luck.

What I wasnt aware of is the 'first day' period of grace.     Ive been away from the BT DLM now for about 5+ years and although once upon a time I did know a fair bit about it.. its one of those things that when youre not effected by it yourself then you perhaps dont always follow closely whats going on because you dont see it first hand. 

I loved Be*s DLM.   It worked and gave the EU so much control over their line.   None of this hidden mystery stuff and IP profiles.
However I suppose I can grudgingly admit I know why BT do it..  and I can imagine ' Old Aunt Edith' could muck up her line to become unstable because she didnt know what she was doing with being presented the opportunity of setting your own line profiles  :-X   

Quote
I know that Asbo has proved on another thread that (becuase of 'last gasp' communications between the modem and the DSLAM - at least the Huawei ones!) that powering it down prevents line-errors being recorded, which you would otherwise get if you just unplugged it from the line (either at the modem or NTE), which DLM would frown on.

Ahhhhhhhh   the joys of dying gasp and its effects on the DLM.   Something else LLU freed me from...  and something else Ive had more than one rants about going back to the early days of maxdsl...   lol coming back to a BTw based ISP brings memories flooding back.   If you search history back far enough theres possibly several posts by me on this topic across various forums, and how either some routers werent sending the dying gasp signal.. or the BTw DLM was ignoring it.  iirc all dsl modems are supposed to hold on to a small amount of energy in reserve sufficient to send the dying gasp message to the DSLAM in the event of power failures etc.
Its a long time ago now, but the Voyager routers didnt seem to do this very well - or back then BTs DLMs didnt care.

Quote
At the other end of the spectrum from that which you are currently experiencing with your PN PPPoE, quite often (becuase the TG firmware has the wrong PPP timeouts set by PN) a modem resync will not be detected by PN's RADIUS servers, as it happens too quickly within the PPP timeout - But DLM has seen it (rather like the garden shed in Bill & Ben)!!!!!  :lol:

Oh gawd...  this really is like a stroll down memory lane today.   Im experiencing deja vu...  and now recalling why I rejoiced when Be came here and I was suddenly free from stuck bRAS profiles and the BTw DLM..  and stale sessions.   I guess I need to bring myself back up to date again.  :'(
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2013, 07:44:07 PM
Is that yours BE?  :(  :'(

No I believe that is a service based in Ewhurst, which has received the attention of an Eagle-eye.  ;)

So why is the power output so low?  Does anyone know?   This surely will be having an effect on the achievable sync speeds.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 20, 2013, 09:50:46 PM
Is that yours BE?  :(  :'(


No, it's not mine.

I'm connected to a Huawei DSLAM with a D-side length of around 1000m, so mine's much worse.

Quote

One thing I notice is the Tx power seems low compared to mine.  Im a novice when it comes vdsl, so dont know what the normal parameters are for  FTTC, but certainly on adsl you'd expect a specific range.
Has anyone done a study on average Tx power on vdsl.... this probably would have been something I would have done in the past days when I had more time (ok I did because back in 2003 I never understood why mine was low compared to everyone else's - which lead me to the discovery of power cut back & PSD masks)


It's a little harder to consider averages with VDSL2 connections as the stats are split up per frequency band plan.

This is my connection:-

Code: [Select]

Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 4282 Kbps, Downstream rate = 19336 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 4333 Kbps, Downstream rate = 19023 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207)
DS: (32,859)
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:       4282 kbps         19336 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        6.2 dBm          11.3 dBm
============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB): 8.3 56.1   N/A   N/A 22.2 65.7 0.1
Signal Attenuation(dB): 8.3 55.6   N/A   N/A 22.2   N/A   N/A
        SNR Margin(dB): 5.9 6.1   N/A   N/A 6.3   N/A   N/A
         TX Power(dBm): -4.2 5.8   N/A   N/A 11.3   N/A   N/A


DS TX Power is reported as 11.3 dBm but as can be seen, these days I can only use the lowest frequency band.


Quote
Secondly quality of copper is going to make a difference, a lot of this will depend on the age of your estate.  Over the years BT have used various gauge copper 0.5mm and 0.3mm as well as copper coated aluminium.  With vdsl obviously the chunk of E side has been eliminated, and D side is going to be a lot dependant on when BT first put the lines to an estate in. 

Although this estate is newish, its fed from a much older DP which definitely uses 05.mm gauge from the cab.  The cab Im actually connected to is probably one of the first installed in this town and the DPs put in during an era when the price of copper wasnt such of a concern as it has been over about the past 20 yrs.  No idea what gauge is used on the UG feed for the estate, but since Im near the beginning its a relatively short length to the JBF Im on, compared to the overall distance anyhow.

I moved into this estate shortly before adsl became available, back in the days when no-one ever thought of things like attenuation and loop length.  Although I am very close to the exchange because this estate is fed via an old cab and DP the loop length is relatively long and literally does go all round the houses ..  but even so Ive always been able to exceed estimations and at once upon a time I had a rock steady full 24Mbps down 2.6 Mbps up with Be*.... well until more recently that is.

I think with vdsl its going to be a bit more difficult to estimate speeds as accurately as we could with adsl2+ because so much more is dependant on the type of copper used by BT locally.

Not only the type of copper, but at the higher frequencies in play, attenuation, interference & crosstalk play a much larger part, particularly on longer lines.

1 or 2 dB increase in attenuation-wise can seriously affect some connections.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 20, 2013, 09:59:16 PM
Is that yours BE?  :(  :'(

No I believe that is a service based in Ewhurst, which has received the attention of an Eagle-eye.  ;)

It is indeed very similar to an Ewhurst connection, but it's actually someone else's.
He too can't get to the bottom of why it's so poor.

There is a school of thought that VDSL2 output power is decreased for cabinets a long way from the exchange - to avoid swamping the already weak ADSL signals that have travelled all the way from the exchange.

e.g. my cabinet is around 4.4km from the exchange, so ADSL signals won't be too strong at all by the time they reach the cabinet.

At the additional 1000m or so to my home from the cabinet, I could only achieve 1 Mbps on ADSL (on a good day).

FWIW, see the attached graph for how power in the 2nd DS band (D2) has deteriorated on my connection since Christmas.
It's been a big fat zero since DLM was reset/re-calculated 13th July.

Now, whether that's the result of lower sync speed or the lower sync speed is a result of reduced power, I just don't know.
Neither did the visiting engineer.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Black Sheep on July 21, 2013, 12:06:46 PM
Is that yours BE?  :(  :'(

No I believe that is a service based in Ewhurst, which has received the attention of an Eagle-eye.  ;)

It is indeed very similar to an Ewhurst connection, but it's actually someone else's.
He too can't get to the bottom of why it's so poor.

There is a school of thought that VDSL2 output power is decreased for cabinets a long way from the exchange - to avoid swamping the already weak ADSL signals that have travelled all the way from the exchange.

e.g. my cabinet is around 4.4km from the exchange, so ADSL signals won't be too strong at all by the time they reach the cabinet.

At the additional 1000m or so to my home from the cabinet, I could only achieve 1 Mbps on ADSL (on a good day).

FWIW, see the attached graph for how power in the 2nd DS band (D2) has deteriorated on my connection since Christmas.
It's been a big fat zero since DLM was reset/re-calculated 13th July.

Now, whether that's the result of lower sync speed or the lower sync speed is a result of reduced power, I just don't know.
Neither did the visiting engineer.

That very same 'school of thought', was told to myself and others, on a recent course I attended.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2013, 12:29:40 PM
Quote
There is a school of thought that VDSL2 output power is decreased for cabinets a long way from the exchange - to avoid swamping the already weak ADSL signals that have travelled all the way from the exchange.

That does actually make a lot of sense and it wouldn't surprise me.
A neighbour subscribed to adsl1/2+ using the same DP as someone on VDSL could possibly experience cross-talk from his vdsl neighbour.


I tried to research power cutback & PSD masks several years ago & unfortunately there was very little information in public domain about the PSD profiles.  All I know is that for adsl there were 4 separate profiles in use by BT which are dependant on line length.
The shorter lines are the ones which have more power cutback applied, particularly to the lower end of the frequency range, but all tones in the adsl1 frequency are cut back to some extent for short lines. 
 
Its a long time since I looked, but I never could find anything that documented how much cutback was applied to which tones for each of the 4 profiles. 
All I can say is that from my own observations an adsl1 PSD mask profile for short lines would reduce tx power from about 20dBm to about 12dBm.
On adsl 2+ (aside from the very early frequencies) its a bit harder to see the effects of PSD masks, but on a short line looking at the bit loading graph you can sometimes still see slight bump as you move into adsl2+ tone territory, where they seem to get no obvious restrictions.


So...... with VDSL.... because the e-side is now out of the loop (literally), then yes the fttc line is going to become the new 'short' neighbouring line.  The further away from the exchange the cab is, then its more likely it is that a vdsl line could cause x-talk to any adsl lines in the vicinity, which as you already pointed out on a long line is going to be a bit delicate as it is....  so it wouldnt surprise me if there are vdsl power masks based on cab distance.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2013, 12:34:41 PM
That very same 'school of thought', was told to myself and others, on a recent course I attended.

Sorry BS, I didnt see your post when I started typing my reply,  do you have any further info on this ie such as how many profiles and distances?
or was it just as we are doing here and pointing out the obvious as to yes it makes perfect sense that there would likely be vdsl specific power profiles to protect the very long lines.


----

However, Ive still no idea why BE's line would suddenly be reduced for no apparent reason  ???
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2013, 01:06:49 PM
BTW

I noticed yesterday that the DLM seemed to turn interleaving off, it may or may not be a co-incidence, but looking back on DSLstats, it possibly occurred some time around the drop in PPP session, as Ive not had any recorded FECs since then.


Secondly Ive also just noticed that my intermittent EMI/REIN/upstream line fault appears to be back  :'(   Ive taken that back to the other thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12660.msg240187.html#msg240187).
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Black Sheep on July 21, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
That very same 'school of thought', was told to myself and others, on a recent course I attended.

Sorry BS, I didnt see your post when I started typing my reply,  do you have any further info on this ie such as how many profiles and distances?
or was it just as we are doing here and pointing out the obvious as to yes it makes perfect sense that there would likely be vdsl specific power profiles to protect the very long lines.


----

However, Ive still no idea why BE's line would suddenly be reduced for no apparent reason  ???

Yes, it was basically 'chit chat' from our trainer. I personally wasn't aware of this, but he said the power back-off was related to the ANFP, especially on long distance Cabs. He also commented that he knew of instances of this, whereby the synch speed at the Cab would be less than the 40/80Meg one may expect. I haven't ever experienced this situation, and my patch is semi-rural/semi-urban.

Perhaps on some of the extreme rural routes, Wales, Highlands of Scotland, Lake District/Peak District etc, this may occur ??
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 21, 2013, 02:29:37 PM

Yes, it was basically 'chit chat' from our trainer. I personally wasn't aware of this, but he said the power back-off was related to the ANFP, especially on long distance Cabs. He also commented that he knew of instances of this, whereby the synch speed at the Cab would be less than the 40/80Meg one may expect. I haven't ever experienced this situation, and my patch is semi-rural/semi-urban.

Perhaps on some of the extreme rural routes, Wales, Highlands of Scotland, Lake District/Peak District etc, this may occur ??

Or dare I mention it, some of the slightly less extreme semi-rural routes e.g. the outskirts of a town where D-side length may be around 1000m with the cab itself being over 4 km from the exchange?  ;)

Is 4 km classed as long distance?

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on July 21, 2013, 02:35:26 PM
Is 4 km classed as long distance?

For an ADSL2+/ADSL2/G.Dmt service I would say that distance is significant.  ;)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Black Sheep on July 21, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
I find myself agreeing with B*Cat (as always)  ;D.

I'm afraid I'm not privy to information, as to what dictates the distance (in dB, not Km I would guess ?) a Cabinet would require 'PBO' to be applied ?? As we know, your Cabinet is very busy with well over 100 EU's as well, so maybe it is being 'held off' to some degree ??
I wouldn't have a clue, but I'm left wondering if this in fact is worth pursuing with your ISP, BE ?? They may have the clout to get an answer ??   
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Black Sheep on July 21, 2013, 09:09:16 PM
BTW

I noticed yesterday that the DLM seemed to turn interleaving off, it may or may not be a co-incidence, but looking back on DSLstats, it possibly occurred some time around the drop in PPP session, as Ive not had any recorded FECs since then.


Secondly Ive also just noticed that my intermittent EMI/REIN/upstream line fault appears to be back  :'(   Ive taken that back to the other thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12660.msg240187.html#msg240187).

Was Interleaving ever on, Kitz ?? I've just viewed your 'Service Profile History' and there is only one 'event' logged since the connection was made live. That is 128K-80M with interleaving switched off on both US and DS ??
Something weird though, as it's showing your circuit 'out of synch' at this particular time ?? Have you unplugged it ??
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2013, 10:34:36 PM
>> Was Interleaving ever on, Kitz

On the first day it was according to the first set of stats I pulled

Code: [Select]
ath 1
  Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream
Line rate (kbit/s) 79999 20000 0 0
CRC errors 0 0 0 0
FEC errors 108 0 0 0
HEC errors 17 0 0 0

Ive not had any on Sat or today though, but saying that Ive been switched off since about.. umm 5.30ish?


It dawned on me that the Quinn guy had removed my NTE 2000 plate did whatever wiring, then plugged my phone straight into that socket.   Whilst dad was here he helped me move the furniture and Ive taken some piccies.   Need to get them off the camera yet.   

Done some tidying up of wiring because the set up that he left me with was impossible to work with so got a longer modem cable, and the router and modem are now located where I wanted them to be in the first place (ie the logical solution next to the wall where a BToR guy should have been able to put an NTE for me.)   Still not managed to sort out the drawer situation though, Ive tried tacking the cable up, but I have an obstruction with opening the drawer :(

I'll post the pics later and perhaps someone can suss out what hes done.  From what I can see it looks like hes running back to the location of the old NTE on the orange and white pair. 
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 21, 2013, 10:52:54 PM

Was Interleaving ever on, Kitz ?? I've just viewed your 'Service Profile History' and there is only one 'event' logged since the connection was made live. That is 128K-80M with interleaving switched off on both US and DS ??


That's what was reported when DLM was recently reset/re-calculated for my connection (but at 40M instead of 80M).
However, my modem did report low depths of interleaving (11 DS & 6 US) until DLM kicked in the following day when Interleaving was completely switched off again (depths of 1 for both DS & US).

As in Kitz's case, some FEC/RSCorr errors were also reported during the short period when inteleaving was on at low depths (see the attached), so it does cast some slight doubt on how wide open the wide open profile mentioned in SIN498 actually is these days.



Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 21, 2013, 11:24:29 PM
>> Was Interleaving ever on, Kitz

On the first day it was according to the first set of stats I pulled

Code: [Select]
ath 1
  Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream
Line rate (kbit/s) 79999 20000 0 0
CRC errors 0 0 0 0
FEC errors 108 0 0 0
HEC errors 17 0 0 0

Ive not had any on Sat or today though, but saying that Ive been switched off since about.. umm 5.30ish?
 

I have just realised, those stats are from the HG612's GUI aren't they?

If so, you'll have to ignore the reported CRC/FEC errors as Huawei's programming for the GUI is actually flawed.

The correct data is obtained directly via telnet (--pbParams & --stats) or via Eric's or my programs.

Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on July 22, 2013, 12:07:22 AM
^ oh...  sorry wasnt aware of that.  May be a wrong assumption on my part having seen the FEC error count.   Ive not seen any since.   
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: fenlandbroadband on January 23, 2014, 04:12:16 PM
Hi Kitz (and everyone!), probably a username you remember from long ago on ADSLguide  :)

My apologies for bringing up an old topic that hasn't been posted on for a while, but it seems to exactly match my issue and I've not found another more suitable.

I too am just about to migrate from BE to PlusNet, and have had a similar issue. As some background, I'm only migrating the broadband (ADSL2+) from BE to PlusNet, and the phone line is staying BT.

On Tuesday night (21/01) I requested my MAC from BE, and that arrived by email on Wednesday morning.
Last night (22/01) I placed an order for PN Business Unlimited and supplied my Mac code
This morning (23/01) I received an email from PN saying that the broadband will be activated on the 30/01, and a text saying the same. I also received a text from BE saying my broadband will be terminated on 29/01 (a day before the PN date?) and email from BE saying "BT has told us that there is an ongoing cease for your landline. The cease date is 29/01/2014".

Plusnet tell me there isn't anything showing in their system that would have caused that and it all looks fine to them, but they (understandably) can't see anything about the phone line side of things as it isn't with them, but they also fully understood the concern and issues that a cease could cause.

They've suggested calling BT and BE to find out what is going on (I'm not the BT line payer so that's going to be fun to explain that one to them as they'll no doubt not want to talk to me, but it is another person in the same household so at least it shouldn't be too difficult...), but before I call them, can anyone here confirm if the BE email is purely a worrying spurious message that doesn't mean very much in the situation I've described above, or if it's the first signs of something that has gone very wrong and the best way for me to solve it (eg: who actually needs to sort it out of the 3 companies)

PN also mentioned that the date on the order is actually down as the 28th (the date the sign up process let me pick) and then also said the 29th, but neither of those dates seem to match up with the 30th that was sent by email and text this morning, so confusion all round there for me...

Thanks,

Simon
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on January 23, 2014, 04:41:19 PM
This is a well-known "bug" in the Be systems and there's a fair bit of comment about it in their forums.
If you contact Be to check they will tell you there's nothing to worry about. And it obviously isn't going to get fixed.

I'm a few days behind you - asked for my MAC from Be (Sky call centre though) today and will head back to PlusNet ASAP.
I'm on BT for phone as well and am not changing that.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: fenlandbroadband on January 23, 2014, 05:17:29 PM
Just phoned BT, they can't see any cease on the account, but also can't see any migration taking place for broadband - they feel this is because I'm not migrating to BT so don't know anything about it...

So then phoned BE, and they say that the account will be cancelled on the 29th and that they've received notification from BT that the landline is being ceased and that's the reason why they are going to cancel the broadband account on that date as they would then have no way to provide broadband without the phone line existing.

The suggestion is to call PN or BT (which I've already done, and they both suggested calling the others)

So I'm none the wiser and it seems BE are convinced the landline is being ceased. Is the same BT/BE/Plusnet three always the issue with this from what you've seen, or does it also affect BT/BE/otherISP?


Same as you HPsauce, my MAC request from BE was through to a Sky call centre. Thankfully no attempt to "sell" to me, especially once they'd checked the account and seen it was down as a business package, and the call lasted about 4 minutes total including the menus and a short wait - hopefully I'll never have to call Sky again.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: burakkucat on January 23, 2014, 05:28:22 PM
It might be advantageous to send a PM to both Chris Parr (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=460) and Bob Pullen (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=834), asking that they perform a manual status check at "their end".  :-\
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on January 23, 2014, 08:00:14 PM
Hi Simon..  long time indeed :)

>> I received an email from PN saying that the broadband will be activated on the 30/01,

Check the email - I was confused by it too as iirc it says midnight.  It means connected by 00:00:01 on the 30th, or midnight on the 30th.. or what I'd call by 23:59:59 on the 29th.   I think theres a debate about it somewhere on their forums about how theyve confused many people by the way they use the term midnight.  You'd have to check but Id say that BT should be doing the work on the 29th. 


>>> "BT has told us that there is an ongoing cease for your landline. The cease date is 29/01/2014".

BE Still sending out the same useless and confusing emails :(

Plusnet should be able to tell today if there really is a cease on your line.   I chased around the houses with BT who eventually confirmed it too. 
I'd call PN later this evening when queues should be less busy (they are a bit busy atm whilst still setting up the Leeds call center) and who ever you speak to should have time to be able to double check their/BT systems, which is what they did for me.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: fenlandbroadband on January 24, 2014, 11:07:30 PM
Thank you! I have finally found a topic on the PN forum that seems to be the one you were referring to Kitz, and posted here to complete the loop for anyone else that may face the same issue in future: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,117199.0.html

Seems this is another known issue where they are giving a written date everywhere (order tracker, text, email) which suggests after 12:00pm (isn't that midday/lunchtime anyway?) on the day after the migration is meant to be taking place. The PlusNet message "Your broadband order should complete on 30th Jan 2014 - After 12pm" strongly suggests it'll happen after midday on the 30th - quite why they've not said "Your broadband order should complete by 29th Jan 2014 - Before 23:59pm" I don't know?! However even that thread suggests that the date PN thought it'd happen wasn't and it happened the next day - worrying.

So looks like I'll be migrating on the 29th, which matches what PN told me on the phone on Thursday and what BE said is the date "something is happening on the line" and when they are going to switch their account off.

They don't make this ISP migration thing easy do they...

:fingers:
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on January 24, 2014, 11:17:43 PM
Cheers for the link, I think its a similar one as mine would have been before that date.   Just shows its confusing.  ???

>>  They don't make this ISP migration thing easy do they..

You know sometimes it may be one heck of a lot easier if we knew nothing.   That way we would go into a blind panic when the term "cease" is banded around.  :D

>> looks like I'll be migrating on the 29th,

Yep I agree.   Good luck :)
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: fenlandbroadband on January 29, 2014, 06:36:21 PM
The migration has taken place - dropped at 8:30am today and wasn't back up when I got home this evening but had been synced with the exchange all day (the remote vendor hardware ID had changed to IFTN which was a good clue I'd moved back to BT Openreach and the 21CN kit.

A quick call to PlusNet this evening, on their business support line (no long waits thankfully!) and they checked and instantly activated it, and now I'm up and running. However...  I only seem to be getting Upstream rate = 1219 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21358 Kbps but I've paid for Annex M - on BE I was getting 1.96Mbps on speedtest.net, so my line should definitely be seeing higher than I'm getting at the moment. Only change is that I've gone from the BE Box router (585v7 - it synced and connected via the Internet_PPP and the PN login details but didn't let me get anywhere on the web - could only ping PN DNS servers?) to my old Belkin N1 that I used to use. As far as I know the Belkin N1 Vision is Annex M upload compatible...?


Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1219 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21358 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:         ADSL2+
Channel:      Fast
Trellis:      U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:      No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime
      Down      Up
SNR (dB):   6.1      6.5
Attn(dB):   9.0      4.2
Pwr(dBm):   0.0      12.1
Max(Kbps):   24172      1216
Rate (Kbps):   21358      1219
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: fenlandbroadband on January 29, 2014, 06:40:11 PM
Just to add... this morning the 585v7 was showing:

DSL Type G.992.5 Annex M US 56
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) (kbps/kbps) 1,988 / 22,700
Bandwidth (Up/Down) (kbps/kbps) 1,995 / 19,915

So that suggests the line had Annex M after the switchover this morning and when using the 585v7, but not the Belkin N1 Vision...  :no:
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: HPsauce on January 29, 2014, 06:42:10 PM
I'm now actively in this same process, and have had the same "scary" message from Be.  :angel:
My migration is set for 3rd, or is it 4th February - next Monday/Tuesday. As noted above the dates are confusing.

I'll be ready whatever, with more routers than any household really needs I can cover all the angles. :lol:
(I'll be throwing a few out next week  8) )
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: kitz on January 29, 2014, 09:38:08 PM
Just to add... this morning the 585v7 was showing:

DSL Type G.992.5 Annex M US 56
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) (kbps/kbps) 1,988 / 22,700
Bandwidth (Up/Down) (kbps/kbps) 1,995 / 19,915

So that suggests the line had Annex M after the switchover this morning and when using the 585v7, but not the Belkin N1 Vision...  :no:

Is there nowhere in the belkin if you can see which Annex its using?

Another thing to note - which possibly isnt applicable in your case - but with migrations coming in to PN from LLU they sometimes order adsl2 than apply annex-m as a separate process.   Having seen annex m with the 585v7 I'd be tempted to double check that you are showing as annex-m on their systems.
Finally bear in mind theres no default 3dB profile with BTw - its 6dB.    I think PN can request it, but you will always be subject to the DLM variations.
Title: Re: Leaving Be*
Post by: fenlandbroadband on January 30, 2014, 01:08:29 AM
Looked around everywhere but can't find anything that shows a mode beyond "ADSL2+" in the router, Kitz. It looks to me like my old N1 Vision doesn't support Annex M - the specs from Belkin look very uncertain now I look back, although I did buy it many years ago before even knowing of BE or higher ADSL speeds so not really all that surprised.

Re-connecting my BE 585v7 I'm getting Annex M, so it's definitely on the line, but I can't get any websites to load - I'd imagine it is getting confused with two possible internet destinations and trying to use some BE settings, even though my PC and wifi devices are set to use other DNS servers.

DSL Type:   G.992.5 Annex M US 56

Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:   2,004 / 22,704

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:   2,011 / 19,919


It seems I've got both the ETHoA default BE connection there and the Internet_PPP one that they recently added to BE Boxes for the Sky migration. That is connecting to PN and is obtaining my PN IP address, but simply refuses to connect to any sites.

The BE Box shows:


>Internet_PPP   

Type:   PPPoA

Uptime:   0 days, 0:03:30

IP Address:   *my new PN ip address*

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [B/kB]:   702 / 5.26

--------------

> Internet   

Type:   ETHoA

Uptime:   0 days, 0:03:35

IP Address:   *my old BE ip address*

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/B]:   11.01 / 0



BE appear to have locked down the firmware with the latest version they've installed, and there doesn't seem to be any way to remove the old connection leaving just the Internet_PPP one that would otherwise work fine.

So time for a new router, especially seeing as I'm paying extra specifically to get the Annex M upload rate.

Sync seems slower on the line connected to BT Openreach, but maybe that'll improve over the first 10 days? Ping is also lower on PN and everything seems more responsive than BE, although the TBB quality monitor is showing far more yellow (double the standard ping) constantly all evening and it hasn't dropped off after midnight. Overall I'm very happy so far though with the PN connection compared with BE and just need to sort out the router!