Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: Basil on July 02, 2013, 12:08:36 PM
-
I have had a few issues with dropped connections and fairly slow speed to my long term ISP, Zen Internet. I put it down to be out in the sticks on aluminium cabling to a an elderly, small exchange (Prees in north Shropshire). Thanks to this site I myself found a dodgy connection from the BT ADSL socket and things became a little better. The other day Zen rang to say they were performing a speed increase on the line and this was not a user choice, all customers on my type of ADSL line would get it. I had this "bad feeling".... The e-mails came saying the speed increase was about to occur and I need do nothing at my end. Well, initially my routerstats showed a change in the noise margin from an average of about 5 dB to about 20 dB and speed did increase. But within a day things had deteriorated to the level where 10 e-mails took maybe 2 minutes to download, and video like YouTube was all but unusable, even the YouTube home page taking ten minutes to come up. I rang Zen and they said their logs showed I had been suffering drop outs for many months, (which I knew), and that I needed to plug the router in the master socket, do a quiet line test, blah blah. I have had the router in the master socket and it made no difference. The line test showed no audible noise. They then suggested my May 2005 sourced Netgear DG834v2 router was known to not be compatible with the new line changes and I should buy a new Thompson one off them. I fear I am en route to a frustrating and expensive wild goose chase and am seriously contemplating binning a BT line connection and investigating a satellite based ISP link. I use the net a lot for pleasure and business, and being out in the sticks I use it more than most for shopping and Ebay. Ebay is particularly galling as when you are about to make a last minute bid you can be sure the line will either drop or be on go slow! I just don't have time or inclination to go on a self funded experimental journey buying new this and that with no guarantee of a positive result.
I am sure I am not alone in such connection experiences, and I am after advice as to whether satellite is a viable alternative, and whether a new router is likely to be the magic elixir to getting things working properly again.
I am quite pragmatic about all this, I just need a reliable, if not blisteringly fast connection. Years ago when I lived in south Manchester I took part in a small trial of fibre optic broadband, long before it was mainstream, sharing a huge pipe with maybe 50 other houses. It was an eye opening experience, but I realise I forego that sort of thing to live amongst woods and green fields, in peace and quiet. Trouble is, Internet wise, it's too damned quiet here, right now ;) Help! Thanks.
-
I have had a few issues with dropped connections and fairly slow speed to my long term ISP, Zen Internet. I put it down to be out in the sticks on aluminium cabling to a an elderly, small exchange (Prees in north Shropshire). Thanks to this site I myself found a dodgy connection from the BT ADSL socket and things became a little better. The other day Zen rang to say they were performing a speed increase on the line and this was not a user choice, all customers on my type of ADSL line would get it. I had this "bad feeling".... The e-mails came saying the speed increase was about to occur and I need do nothing at my end. Well, initially my routerstats showed a change in the noise margin from an average of about 5 dB to about 20 dB and speed did increase. But within a day things had deteriorated to the level where 10 e-mails took maybe 2 minutes to download, and video like YouTube was all but unusable, even the YouTube home page taking ten minutes to come up. I rang Zen and they said their logs showed I had been suffering drop outs for many months, (which I knew), and that I needed to plug the router in the master socket, do a quiet line test, blah blah. I have had the router in the master socket and it made no difference. The line test showed no audible noise. They then suggested my May 2005 sourced Netgear DG834v2 router was known to not be compatible with the new line changes and I should buy a new Thompson one off them. I fear I am en route to a frustrating and expensive wild goose chase and am seriously contemplating binning a BT line connection and investigating a satellite based ISP link. I use the net a lot for pleasure and business, and being out in the sticks I use it more than most for shopping and Ebay. Ebay is particularly galling as when you are about to make a last minute bid you can be sure the line will either drop or be on go slow! I just don't have time or inclination to go on a self funded experimental journey buying new this and that with no guarantee of a positive result.
I am sure I am not alone in such connection experiences, and I am after advice as to whether satellite is a viable alternative, and whether a new router is likely to be the magic elixir to getting things working properly again.
I am quite pragmatic about all this, I just need a reliable, if not blisteringly fast connection. Years ago when I lived in south Manchester I took part in a small trial of fibre optic broadband, long before it was mainstream, sharing a huge pipe with maybe 50 other houses. It was an eye opening experience, but I realise I forego that sort of thing to live amongst woods and green fields, in peace and quiet. Trouble is, Internet wise, it's too damned quiet here, right now ;) Help! Thanks.
Hi. The sentence I've highlighted doesn't make sense ?? The higher the Margin the less the speed.
I'm wondering if your ISP are upgrading their equipment from 20CN to 21CN, which shouldn't really affect you as an EU ??
I say this quite often on here, until I'm blue in the face tbh, but request your ISP arrange a 'Broadband SFI' engineering visit. They've already admitted that your circuit drops frequently. It's a flip of a coin whether its the router or not, just as it's a flip of a coin as to whether you've got a network fault or not ??
No amount of debate will bottom this out if you've run your tests at the master sockets test jack, and done the obvious eliminatory checks such as new filter, dsl lead etc ?
Ring them asap and get the visit in place. You pay line rental for this very reason.
-
Just to add one point to the above, when you said that you had plugged the router into the master socket and it made no difference, did you actually plug it into the test socket (the socket which is exposed when the faceplate is removed from the master socket)? This is important, but if you haven't got an NTE5 type of master socket then you won't unfortunately be able to do this test.
-
No, I do not have a lead that will mate with the router at one end and whatever the "inside" socket is inside the master socket. The master socket internal connector appears neither what I naively call a phone plug socket, or an RG-11 socket. So I have been connecting into the router socket of the faceplate, at the master socket.
May I take this chance to ask another naive question? Does ADSL use a a different and separate incoming cable pair to the phone line, or is the data passed on the same cable pair as the phone line? I ask because our bungalow was built about 20 years ago and the owner at the time insisted the mains and BT service cables come underground, and not over head. On the outside wall of the hose is a grey BT logo'd terminal box where the underground phone cable comes in. Inside are 4 gel filled crimps, seemingly bringing 2 pairs of several cables emanating from underground, into the house. Other pairs are not used and seemingly redundant.
I have never been clear if ADSL uses a separate cable pair or shares the phone pair... :(
Thanks. I also misunderstood the noise measurement graph. I was assuming the higher figure was the signal tonoise ration, so say 20 dB was a signal 20 dB higher than the noise floor.... :(
To clarify I have routerstats lite running while downloading a file. Here are 2 screen shots taken during the download of a 12.04 Megs file that took 13:06 minutes to download.
http://www.chriswilson.tv/stats1.jpg
and at http://www.chriswilson.tv/stats2.jpg
Thanks for the replies!
-
>>> I'm wondering if your ISP are upgrading their equipment from 20CN to 21CN, which shouldn't really affect you as an EU ??
I agree it shouldnt... but wondering if its now having to go through the trials of the DLM to find the best profile? Of so things may be bumpy for a while until the DLM settles down.
--------
Basil... could you provide some linestats please.....
The reason I ask, is that we may (or may not) be able to spot something obvious...
..... and secondly if its a long line and now on adsl2+, then perhaps we can see if we think that putting it on adsl2 may be more beneficial.
Its pretty well known that some long lines dont perhaps perform too good on adsl2+ but setting it to adsl2 via the router may help.
-
Our posts crossed
>> if ADSL uses a separate cable pair or shares the phone pair
It shares... hence the importance of adsl filters.
>>> so say 20 dB
hmmmm I notice your connection speed from routerstats is showing 576..... I wonder... "max fixed rate profile 500" ?
A large jump like that to 20db shows that your line conditions suddenly got a heck of a lot better. I would need to know though if your sync speed changed at that time.
Also... does routerstats routinely show large jumps like that.. particularly at around the same time each day?
-
Hi kitz!
Thanks for the reply. They only commissioned the "upgrade" the other day, so I have had little chance to get a meaningful set of graphs. I have to do some work now, but I can leave either routerstats or routerstats lite running on this PC. Before the upgrade I could almost set my watch by when the connection would become all but unusable. About 3.300 PM when the kids left school. I just had to abandon anything line intensive until late in the evening on many occasions. Now it's all but unusable all the time.... I have also just downloaded ADSL graphing scripts V 1.5, but when run (and I have put my password in the text file) it says "unable to create pipe a few times and the graphs and log file are blank. It may be this app is unsuited to my connection, I don't know. Tell me what's best to leave running and I will do so. I am actually a radio ham (2E0ILY is my call sign, see www.qrz.com), but know sod all about Telecoms. Thanks for your help again.
-
If Zen are raising question marks over your router, ask them to loan you another to test. I've successfully done this before. They even supplied it pre-configured for my line. Although if they're suggesting the TG582n, there's loads cheap on Ebay. I picked one up yesterday to test an issue I'm having for £5.99 delivered.
It sounds a bit strange that you were "upgraded" regardless as assuming this is an exchange upgrade to 21CN, they recommend NOT regrading to ADSL2+ unless you already have a good speed. Off the top of my head I think it was 4Mbps but there's a document on their site it you want to search for it. So it would be worth ascertaining exactly what has gone on & what service you are on currently.
It may also help to remove the redundant ring wire from the master socket.
If you can get rid of the line drops then ask Zen to reset your line as if it were a new connection. That will clear any constraints due to the drops.
I'd also see if you can get BT to upgrade your master socket FOC so that you can isolate internal extensions.
-
If Zen are raising question marks over your router, ask them to loan you another to test. I've successfully done this before. They even supplied it pre-configured for my line. Although if they're suggesting the TG582n, there's loads cheap on Ebay. I picked one up yesterday to test an issue I'm having for £5.99 delivered.
It sounds a bit strange that you were "upgraded" regardless as assuming this is an exchange upgrade to 21CN, they recommend NOT regrading to ADSL2+ unless you already have a good speed. Off the top of my head I think it was 4Mbps but there's a document on their site it you want to search for it. So it would be worth ascertaining exactly what has gone on & what service you are on currently.
It may also help to remove the redundant ring wire from the master socket.
If you can get rid of the line drops then ask Zen to reset your line as if it were a new connection. That will clear any constraints due to the drops.
I'd also see if you can get BT to upgrade your master socket FOC so that you can isolate internal extensions.
The router Zen mentioned was very new and RouterStats didn't seem to list it as compatible, (yet). They were talking about £30 for it. It's not so much the dosh, but not wanting to waste time experimenting with something that has already proved to be fickle, long term. I'll see if they'll loan me one, good idea, thanks! The ring wire is history already.
They did mention something about resetting the line, but said if there were issues at my end they couldn't reset again for a week or more. I'll try and get some photos of the mess that the master socket and associated wiring is, I always felt it was a right abortion when they installed it years ago! :) Cheers
-
It's not so much the dosh, but not wanting to waste time experimenting with something that has already proved to be fickle, long term.
I know where you're coming from as it can be a right royal PITA but unfortunately, a process of elimination is the only way forward.
Is there anything timed to switch on around 3:30PM? Central heating/hot water perhaps?
-
It's not so much the dosh, but not wanting to waste time experimenting with something that has already proved to be fickle, long term.
I know where you're coming from as it can be a right royal PITA but unfortunately, a process of elimination is the only way forward.
Is there anything timed to switch on around 3:30PM? Central heating/hot water perhaps?
Central heating? In July? <LOL> I can hear my wife laughing already, you obviously haven't heard of my well known parsimony, have you? ;) <LOL>
No, seriosly though, I did have a ferret about and had a sudden gush of excitement when I remembered the de-humidifier is on a hygrostat, but it wasn't that. Tried turning the immersion heater off in case the `stat contacts were arcing, but no joy, either. Being into HF band ham radio I am pretty aware of RF noises, but this is a remarkably quiet locale in general, and electrically the house isn't too noisy. We still have CRT (proper... <G>) TV's! No plasma or LCD and no stylised lighting or too many switched mode PSU's. If I had to guess I would say the drops seem either loading related in so far as late afternoons and evenings and weekends are pretty dire, or just random. But that doesn't explain drops at 3 or 4 AM, unless locals are rather prone to insomnia. I have Router Stats with Telnet running now.
There are a couple of pretty big chicken farms nearby, one opposite, and they will have huge 3 phase blowers to keep Tesco's best chickens from pre cooking in their cages, presumably on temperature monitors. Not sure if mains borne glitches would affect this sort of Telecoms though? Thanks for the ideas, appreciated.
-
>>> About 3.300 PM when the kids left school.
and then at midnightish your SNRM shoots way back up... hmmmm
I must admit I raised an eyebrow when you said radio ham, because that is a common cause of EMI/REIN if you have one in the area, but it seems you are aware of the problems associated with this.
>>> We still have CRT (proper... <G>) TV's!
You will be surprised what has been found to be the cause of REIN on this forum. CRT TVs and monitors are not immune to being the cause of EMI.
>>> Not sure if mains borne glitches would affect this sort of Telecoms though?
Unfortunately they can, there are so many possible causes of REIN - which is exactly why its often so hard to track it down the offending cause :(
Have a read of this:- REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm)
-
I do have a biggish electric fence, but it's been here for years. I will try turning it off for a few hours. I can also turn off ALL power to the house and run off a battery for the router and laptop.
What sort of cable termination goes into the inside socket on the main ADSL box, the "master socket"? I don't have anything made up to go between router and this socket. I can terminate to RG-11 and many other types, if I know what the damned thing is ;)
If posting statistics, what file is best to link to or post? Should ADSL-Stats work with this DG834v2 router and ADSL line, and will it convey anything more than routerstats with Telnet actuated? I'll give it my best shot, but am effectively without a truly workable internet connection now, and I need to address it even if it means doing something fairly radical :) I greatly appreciate the help and knowledge here, a wealth of info and expertise! Thank you.
-
I have made something of a small discovery. If I disconnect all the house phones at the master socket sync speed increases dramatically and noise falls dramatically. However, if I attempt a YouTube video watching session it still freezes after a few seconds, or is appallingly slow and unwatchable. Sync and noise seem to be unchanged during this session. I have a slight idea that as we have only 2 phone points in the house and both have nothing plugged in it casts suspicion on the auto dialler for the house alarm, which is hard wired. There is also an elderly outside bell for the phones, which was here when we came. there's a slide switch in the hall to turn it off, and it's always been turned off since we came here 13 years or so ago. Does the ADSL connection need time to "do anything" now the sync speed is back up from around or under 500 to 3600? The noise has changed from about 22 to about 12.
-
Just a brief comment from The Cattery. Upon reading all the preceding posts to this thread, I started to get a funny sensation in the whiskers . . .
After a quick check, I found Basil's previous thread entitled Should the master socket be moved? (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12620.msg238493.html#msg238493) It seems that the local wiring is even more confusing than I had assumed in that previous thread. :(
-
Hence ........... I will say it again, GET AN SFI ENGINEERING VISIT. :)
-
;)
-
;D
-
Hence ........... I will say it again, GET AN SFI ENGINEERING VISIT. :)
You're undoubtedly correct, my issue right now is being able to say I'll be here. My father in law is terminally ill, in care, miles away. I am on a moments notice to drop everything and just disappear on errands and mercy visits, if not worse. Normally I would wash my hands of this and just wait in for "the man". `Tis a bit tricky at the moment...... :(
-
Is there no other trusted key-holder that could hold the fort, should you need to disappear ??
-
Is there no other trusted key-holder that could hold the fort, should you need to disappear ??
Unfortunately not. One of the joys of being in the sticks with the neighbour in her nineties and infirm. Normally I am pretty flexible and can have days at home at short notice.
-
Oh my! Just doing a quick login and noticed the other thread. I'm afraid I'm having a hectic few weeks atm and although I haven't read it all I did look at one of those graphs, which to me would be indicative of EMI. There's some serious spiking going on there. :o
I won't comment on the electrical stuff because that isn't my forte, but rizla seems to have covered it.
I notice you are with zen... If azaka is around, I wonder if he can add something. We may have to poke him if he doesn't see this because I know he's seriously busy atm too.
I sympathise with your situation with your dad. I know all too well the situation of being 'on call', although I'm more fortunate in that things are more local. I hope everything goes ok for you... Of course family must come first.
-
I'm wondering if those 'spikes' are interference that a normalised, balanced circuit would otherwise dismiss ?? I really can't make head nor tail of how the internal wiring set up is installed, but the mere mention of an outside bell strikes fear into me. ;) ;D
A decent engineer would be able to confirm or deny the circuits integrity, and whether it is harmful REIN that is causing the issue ??
-
I'm wondering if those 'spikes' are interference that a normalised, balanced circuit would otherwise dismiss ?? I really can't make head nor tail of how the internal wiring set up is installed, but the mere mention of an outside bell strikes fear into me. ;) ;D
A decent engineer would be able to confirm or deny the circuits integrity, and whether it is harmful REIN that is causing the issue ??
I have disconnected all three normal phone wire pairs from the master socket, and the auto dialler for the alarm panel. Only the router is now connected to the ADSL master socket box. Left overnight from about 1.00 AM to 7.00 AM this morning the noise has settled. I rang Zen and they agreed to initiate a reset of bRAS or whatever it's called. I am now enjoying a low noise level and downloads from the likes of YouTube at a normal speed (for here.... ;)). They were very helpful as you all have been here, but warned that if the line noise started again the exchange would automatically drop the connection speed and they would be unable to initiate another reset for ten days.
Now, I am pretty sure the issue is either something to do with the master socket, or, more likely, the wiring to phone extensions, the outside bell, or my best guess, the standalone auto dialler for the alarm panel. I can investigate the external bell wiring, which I suspect is spurred off the phone socket in the hall, as the switch for it is by the side of this single socket. I can have a look inside the single phone socket in the lounge, and I am pretty sure the socket in my office is OK. I am not sure how to assess the auto dialler though.
I can say that when I reconnect the internal phone lines at the master socket the noise immediately starts and the router connection will drop every minute or so, and I feel this must indicate the fault is here at my property?
My next question is:
What happens if after a physical examination shows nothing obvious, and the bell is disconnected, the phone lines are connected one by one? Will disrupting the router connection cause the exchange to drop the speed again? Is there a way of testing each extension wiring with it isolated from the ADSL socket, as in resistance testing, or anything. I have pretty good test gear at my disposal, but I am not into ADSL and phone line faults at all, being much more of an RF person.
Thanks to all here I feel I am much closer to resolving this now, without going to a radical solution like a satellite link. 8)
-
Oh my! Just doing a quick login and noticed the other thread. I'm afraid I'm having a hectic few weeks atm and although I haven't read it all I did look at one of those graphs, which to me would be indicative of EMI. There's some serious spiking going on there. :o
I won't comment on the electrical stuff because that isn't my forte, but rizla seems to have covered it.
I notice you are with zen... If azaka is around, I wonder if he can add something. We may have to poke him if he doesn't see this because I know he's seriously busy atm too.
I sympathise with your situation with your dad. I know all too well the situation of being 'on call', although I'm more fortunate in that things are more local. I hope everything goes ok for you... Of course family must come first.
Thanks for the kind words of sympathy, it's a difficult time for my wife, she had to watch her grandmother succumb rather unpleasantly to cancer, so she knows what's coming. Life can be cruel.
-
I'm no expert in phone wiring but I'd be inclined to remake all the connections to the extensions using just the required two wires (blue/white & white/blue). All you'll need is an IDC insertion tool (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Network-Telephone-Socket-Insertion-Tool/dp/B000Q8FKHE) & multimeter. Short the pair at the extension socket & then check resistance at the master. If resistance is OK then make the new connections at the extension & reconnect to the master one at a time.
Even if that does cause the sync speed to drop a little during the testing process, the important thing is to get the line stable. You can always get Zen to reset again later on to get the speed back.
Given how cheap they are, maybe buy replacement extension sockets as well.
A thought with the alarm - is it a monitored service? Wondering if it's configured to dial out as a routine at the times you're experiencing disturbance? And does it have a filter on it or is it hard wired straight to the master? You may well have answered this already.
And what about Sky? If you have it is the box also connected to the phone line & if so, is it filtered?
-
I'm no expert in phone wiring but I'd be inclined to remake all the connections to the extensions using just the required two wires (blue/white & white/blue). All you'll need is an IDC insertion tool (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Network-Telephone-Socket-Insertion-Tool/dp/B000Q8FKHE) & multimeter. Short the pair at the extension socket & then check resistance at the master. If resistance is OK then make the new connections at the extension & reconnect to the master one at a time.
Even if that does cause the sync speed to drop a little during the testing process, the important thing is to get the line stable. You can always get Zen to reset again later on to get the speed back.
Given how cheap they are, maybe buy replacement extension sockets as well.
A thought with the alarm - is it a monitored service? Wondering if it's configured to dial out as a routine at the times you're experiencing disturbance? And does it have a filter on it or is it hard wired straight to the master? You may well have answered this already.
And what about Sky? If you have it is the box also connected to the phone line & if so, is it filtered?
I may well just renew the boxes. To be honest the one in the lounge is pretty redundant. In fact, if it were not for internet access, I could live without a fixed landline altogether, and would. No Sky, and the alarm is not monitored, it just rings our mobiles, so we can sit and worry miles away and impotent :)
The dialler is separate to the alarm panel, I fitted it 12 years ago, it's hard wired to the master socket as if it were an extension, and the alarm end is hard wired straight into the dialler. Unless it has an internal filter, it doesn't have one. Zen checked their logs and reckoned line noise started about April this year, which seems right, from memory of slow downs and occasional drop outs. I recall nothing physical being done or added to the phone set up.
No Sky, so it can't be that, thanks for the ideas!
-
Unfiltered alarm dialler and O/S bell = very poor DSL connection. You really need a SSFP to feed these beggars with. :)
-
Hmmm, off to Google SSFP.... :) The outside bell will be history soon. For now I have work to do, spent too long fiddling with this yesterday. Connection is now solid and fast. I need to find the alarm panel folder to recall the master password, so I don't set the damned thing off when I open the dialler box! Thanks Black Sheep.
Ohh! Quick question, you'll see lots of remote phones. Is there a particular make and model that is simple, basic and reliable? I would rather have a base station with a couple of remote stations with hand portable phones, and the one "normal" phone in my office upstairs. We did have a 3 remote station BT one years ago at another house, and it was very unreliable and battery hungry. Good range would be handy, I am often outside and that can mean well away from the house itself. Cheers.
-
Panasonic DECT phones are generally well regarded but I've never owned any.
Not all BT phones are created equal. The better ones (Diverse) were made by Siemens & decent units but not sure what's what now. Most recent reviews for BT branded stuff seem to be pretty poor.
Siemens rebranded their phone business as Gigaset. I'd expect them to still be quality.
-
I've had two Panasonic phones (base station and one mobile) and always been satisfied. You do need at least one hard wired job in case of mains failure or confirming noise on the line, not uncommon in rural areas like ours.
Tony
-
Hmmm, off to Google SSFP.... :) The outside bell will be history soon. For now I have work to do, spent too long fiddling with this yesterday. Connection is now solid and fast. I need to find the alarm panel folder to recall the master password, so I don't set the damned thing off when I open the dialler box! Thanks Black Sheep.
Ohh! Quick question, you'll see lots of remote phones. Is there a particular make and model that is simple, basic and reliable? I would rather have a base station with a couple of remote stations with hand portable phones, and the one "normal" phone in my office upstairs. We did have a 3 remote station BT one years ago at another house, and it was very unreliable and battery hungry. Good range would be handy, I am often outside and that can mean well away from the house itself. Cheers.
Sorry, my bad. A 'Service Specific Front Plate' (SSFP) is usually connected at the first point of entry, which should be a Master Socket (NTE5). The science behind the SSFP means it splits the PSTN (Phone frequency) from the DSL (Broadband frequencies) at, and only at, that particular point.
This means the DSL speed is maximised as it doesn't 'travel' around the rest of the wiring within the house. However, the SSFP will allow the PSTN frequency to carry on its way to all other devices such as phones, SKY set-top boxes, auto-diallers, FAX's, PDQ's .......... etc.
The downside, if you would call it that, is that the router/Hub can only be plugged into the Master Socket SSFP, as opposed to your set up now, whereby you could plug it into any socket by way of a micro-filter.
I can't advise on phones I'm afraid, we haven't carried them on our vans for approx. 15ys+. I can only say that the BT Verve one I have is functional, even at the bottom of the garden which is approx. 30mtrs from the base station. Don't know if this is good or bad in comparison to others. :-\
-
>> I can only say that the BT Verve one I have is functional, even at the bottom of the garden.........
I was about to reply to Basil's earlier post, saying I have a couple of BT Verves and IMHO they are the best phone Ive ever had (unlike the BT Synergy which had poor battery life). Like you I can use mine at the bottom of the garden, and it seldom needs recharging (I'm a bit of a bugger for forgetting to return it to the base). Plus it has good functions, yet it is logically easy to use.
The only reason I didnt actually mention it at the time is that I was about to post a link for them, then found out that BT no longer sell them and they can be hard to get hold of. I got mine from PCWorld.
-
Thanks kitz! There are a few new ones, and triple packs on Ebay. I may have a punt at a "make offer" one. Much appreciated, have a good weekend, weather looks good for a change :)