Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: snadge on May 29, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
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someone had a chat with sky on BeUserGroup Sky had a 'talk to sky' evening on Be Forums, about them letting be/o2 broadband only customers stay with current phone provider , using their own routers, line profiles and free wifi
in a nutshell, be/o2 customers are being move to SMPF and can keep their phone providers, use their own routers and will possibly be able to have line profiles similar to what they had at BE*, the 'use own routers' is being extended to ALL SKY CUSTOMERS also.. oh and o2/BE users get access to free Wi-Fi too...even if they only have the broadband package.
this was the reply.. this info is taken from that chat:
Sky response Sticking with our current phone line provider:We have both an SMPF and MPF network – some of the SMPF was originally acquired from Easynet, although we’ve more than tripled the footprint since then so it’s really just another part of Sky’s network. Our standard broadband products are not available to new customers without also taking Sky’s telephony, but for any O2 or BE customer who is switched by us to Sky’s network later this year/early next year we will only be switching the service you already have with O2/BE – so if you only have broadband, we’ll be switching you to our SMPF broadband service.
We’ve also invested a lot in our fully unbundled MPF service (launched in 2009) in addition to the WLR-based phone service we’ve been offering since 2007. The vast majority of our customers are on our fully unbundled network - for both phone and broadband – so we also have a significant amount of our engineering resource and investment focused on continually improving that network and service, as well as ongoing proposition reviews to make sure we have competitive line rental and calls packages. We’ll be contacting you (if you are opted in for marketing contact) with more details and offers around these over the coming months as we’d like you to consider switching your phone to us – but that’s all, we won’t be forcing anyone to take a service they don’t already have. There’s also no connection here at all to Sky Broadband Connect – as far as we know, none of the BE members are in Connect only areas, so everyone will be migrated to our network and not the resold BT Wholesale Connect service. There are a handful of exchanges where we are out of SMPF space, but we’re working with the Telefonica team to look at how we reuse space and/or equipment so everyone can be switched to our network.
Sky response to Own Routers: We know this is really important to BE members, so it’s one of the first things we’ve looked at and the good news is we will be changing our policy on this – both for BE members who are switched to Sky’s network and also for the rest of our Sky Broadband customers. We’ve always previously had the Sky routers ‘locked down’ to make sure we had end-to-end ownership and accountability for the experience on our broadband network, and also simplify the technical support approach given how complex broadband support already is with wireless, new devices, aging copper lines, etc. It’s going to take us a bit of time to be able to extend this to all Sky customers. In the meantime, BE members can continue to use their own routers now, and after your service has been switched to Sky’s network if you are part of the Sky-managed migration. Customers who decide to take up one of our promotional offers and switch over early are being sent Sky Hubs (for both our DSL and Fibre products) as we haven’t developed anything yet to support use of other routers, but we are working on this and will keep everyone – including other Sky Broadband customers – updated on progress.
Sky response to Line Profiles and migration to Sky's network: Line profile customisation is another feature that’s at the top of our list to be able to provide, again we are early in the development process so can’t make promises just yet but are looking at what we’d need to do to match what’s currently available to BE members today – including the level of technical support needed to support customised profiles and making more individual tweaks to optimise performance, especially for gamers. We’re also reviewing our DLM approach more widely and what we can do for all Sky customers to improve upstream performance without losing the connection stability side of things.
We'll make sure this is sorted before we migrate you. Also, in any case, if you are not happy with new service or T&Cs you can leave without penalty.
Sky response to Sky WifI: when your broadband is transferred to Sky you should get access to Sky WiFi as well - it won't be gated on taking telephony or TV.
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I smell bovine faeces. I don't believe a single word of this, and I'm completely certain that Sky have no intention whatsoever of letting people use their own router, otherwise why in the name of god are they beta-testing ANOTHER "new" Sky router less than a year from the last "new" Sky router.
Its simply to get people off legacy O2/Be contracts and onto Sky contracts ASAP, at which point all these vague "promises" will evaporate.
If any of you believe this then I have some attractive swampland and bridges you may be interested in acquiring ;)
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It's come from the horses mouth on be user group though? Surely they can't lie... Also just cos an isp sells it's own router doesn't mean it's solely to deny customers using their own.?.. You don't see those isps that let customers use their own routers not bothering with their own 'new' router's... Lol...
Be Interesting to see what happens anyway
Sent from my Sony Xperia Miro on Tapatalk
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What "horse's mouth" is this then?
All I see is some vague answers to questions put by a tiny group of users Sky doesn't much care about anyway. I don't even know who answered the questions.
You do know that the Be usergroup isn't run by Be don't you?
When I see Sky saying the same thing to their own customers I might believe it, but probably not. I will wait until I see the T&Cs change ta :)
Edit - the only routers ever supplied to me by an ISP were from Be and Sky. Its fairly logical to assume that someone migrating/switching has their own router anyway....
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@ Rizla - so are you saying that its all 'made up nonense' by someone over on BeUserGroup and not actually something said by Sky at all?
edit: everyone gets a new router if the ISP gives them too new customers...migrating or not...you know this? when i migrated to from ISP to ISP I always got the standard new router...
Ive since learned the data I posted was directly from the 'talk to sky' event on Be forums (which is owned by BE, not BeUserGroup) I have edited the first post to include this info - some of it was translated onto BUG page here -> http://beusergroup.co.uk/index.php?id=949
Talk to Sky Results..
2013-05-29 14:09:50, by drsox
Here are the more interesting bits of information from the Talk to Sky event on the BE forum this evening:
Some answers are paraphrased.
Q: Can we use our own routers?
A: We will be changing our policy on this – both for BE members who are switched to Sky’s network and also for the rest of our Sky Broadband customers. It’s going to take us a bit of time to be able to extend this to all Sky customers. BE members can continue to use their own routers now, and after your service has been switched to Sky’s network if you are part of the Sky-managed migration.
We will be training all our technical help advisors over time about supporting non-Sky routers (we have thousands of advisors so it will take a bit of time) but we won't be able to run all diagnostics and provide as full technical support as for Sky routers.
Q: Will you offer static IPs? Will IPs change?
A: We are actively investigating what we can do. We can’t make any promises just yet but will be keeping you up to date. If we are able to offer a static IP service we would need you to change your static IP address when your service is migration to our network, similar to BE/O2’s converged core network migrations.
Q: Hosting stuff at home?
A: We have no problem with any type of residential use.
Q: Business use?
A: We also recognise that many of our customers use their Sky Broadband connections to work from home or as freelancers. What we aren’t set up to do is offer business-targeted enhanced care levels. All customers will be given at least two months’ notice before any move to Sky’s network.
Additional Q: "So what you're effectively saying if I'm understanding correctly is whilst Sky are not a business ISP and don't offer any business SLA's you're not going to kick anyone off for business use?"
A: "yep :-)"
Q: Are any ports blocked?
A: We don't actively block any in or outbound port on the Sky network.
Q: What happens to the excellent BE support from "60k" in Bulgaria?
A: We're talking to the management team in Sofia about what the future could look like – we will keep you posted as this moves forward.
Q: Line profiles support?
A: Line profile customisation is another feature that’s at the top of our list to be able to provide, again we are early in the development process so can’t make promises just yet but are looking at what we’d need to do to match what’s currently available to BE members today. [...SNIP...] We’re also reviewing our DLM approach more widely and what we can do for all Sky customers to improve upstream performance without losing the connection stability side of things.
Q: RDNS / PTR support?
A: No solid answer yet - a survey will be conducted soon to gauge the requirements of current BE users. RDNS will be an option on the survey.
Q: What happens to the BE usergroup?
A: I don’t think we know enough yet about the Usergroup website and IRC channel to give any view on its future post-migration of everyone to Sky’s network.
Q: What happens to BE's LLU equipment?
A: All BE customers who also take line rental from Sky will go onto Sky’s MPF equipment. Broadband only customers, some will be transferred to Sky’s SMPF equipment in the exchange (which is roughly equivalent to BE’s exchange hardware) and in some exchanges we will be upgrading the BE hardware with the more advanced feature set and up to date software that we use on our own equipment. There are a few exchanges that BE has unbundled where the Sky network has yet to land, the approach and specification for these exchanges is being finalised and as such the specifics of network design are still to be confirmed.
Q: What happens to the Line Bonding service?
A: We will try and minimise disruption to Line Bonding customers and give you plenty of notice ahead of migration to our network, which will likely happen early next year – and if Sky Fibre becomes available in your area then we hope you’ll choose to switch to that instead of looking for an alternative line bonding service.
Q: What happens to the BE brand?
A: We haven’t made any decisions about the BE brand yet so for now it continues to exist and you’ll continue to be supported in exactly the same way as you are today. [..SNIP..] We are still working through options for future branding, and weighing up investing in developing BE as a standalone brand on our platforms vs investing in developing more technical features/new products under the Sky brand.
Q: What happens to @bethere.co.uk customer email addresses?
A: We haven’t got a final view. At a minimum we’re looking to keep this email service open until all customers have been switched to Sky’s network (which will take about a year).
Q: What is happening about the long term congested BE exchanges (see further down on the BE usergroup news page)?
A: We are working to move O2 and BE members over as quickly as possible, which should help to reduce some of the congestion on Telefonica’s network.
Q: What happens to those who have Annex M (Upload+) enabled?
A: We’re still looking at it, but as we’ve invested in fibre instead [..SNIP..] it’s unlikely we’ll also rollout Annex M on our DSL network.
Additional Q: Concern was raised about those who will never get FTTC as they are connected directly to the exchange.
A: "Yeah I agree , the equipment and CPE's can do it but we'd still need to do some development on our IT stack. So that's the development that we're weighing up on the same list as the other features we don't currently offer."
Q: What happens to customers with Multiple Static IP ranges?
A: We’re still investigating what we can do in this area, but are more likely to be able to offer single static IP than multiple static – and this is one of the reasons that we’ve stopped offering multiple Static IPs to new BE members.
Q: Contracts / Minimum Term Contracts?
A: We have taken all existing BE contracts and T&C’s as they are – so any minimum term that you are in (or out of) stays the same as it was. When we switch you over to Sky’s network and T&Cs, if you are out of contract now you will of course remain out of contract. And even if you are still in a BE minimum term we’ll let you leave without penalty if you are not happy with the new service. For customers that take up one of our early switching offers (look out for emails from tomorrow) there is a requirement to sign up to a new 12 month contract - but this is entirely up to you - you can wait to be migrated over if you prefer with no [additional commitment].
Q: BE Socials?
A: BE/Sky social is a great idea, we'll look at diaries (Lyssa's in particular is a bit of a nightmare to get free time in) and post a date on here.
Q: When would BE customers get access to Sky WiFi?
A: It's part of what you get when you are migrated to Sky's network/platforms - as you need a Sky ID to be able to sign into it.
Q: IPv6 Support?
A: We've already done a lot of work on this and are currently completing network infrastructure upgrades. We also are looking at IT stack ready for this and are looking to launch in 2014.
Q: Does Sky Talk support Indirect Dial (e.g. 18185)
A: Sky Talk doesn't support indirect access calls.
Q: What special offers are there for BE members (similar to the ones sent to O2 customers recently)?
A: look out for emails from tomorrow.
We can't yet offer static IP so if you really need this you might want to wait to move over, but if you are not so bothered about static IP then the offers provide really substantial savings for moving over early.
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Its not run by Be. Its run by Be customers, at least one of whom has received free BB since 2008 for some reason ::)
Also I can remember various chats with (intially) the founders of Be*, then Telefonica when they were taken over.
99% of what they said never happened. It was, in short, total crap.
Hell they were probably still spouting bull about "FTTC plans" right up until El Reg broke the takeover story.
I'll believe it when I see it, I've found that's the best way with the Be "usergroup" :)
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it was a "talk to sky" evening on BE Forums... not Be User Group...sorry... my mistake :-[ i have edited the first post to include this data...
BE Forums isnt run by its customers though is it?
oh well , we'll just have to wait an see... Im staying neutral lol... I would like to see it happen but at the end of the day it make NO DIFFERENCE to me as a customer...cos I use my own router anyway... only thing Iam bothered about is congestion from migration
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I'd read the chat before and while <whoever> is definite about Annex M not happening and no IP address blocks, <whoever> is pretty vague and woolly on the rest.
See I don't believe this chat because there is no cost-benefit to Sky for retaining Be users.
Sky BB doesn't make Sky any money. Line rental does. TV does. It is those which subsidise the BB service - really the core network/backhaul.
So what's the point of a Be user who doesn't want Sky TV (or already has it) and wants to stay on SMPF with another phone provider? None as far as I can see.
If Sky was saying this to O2 users I'd give it a deal more credence, simply because there's a lot of them. How many Be users are there now? 20k or so maybe, the vast majority of whom have no intention of going to Sky.
We'll see.
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does sky broadband really make them no money?
I assume BE users wanting to remain on BE Broadband without TV/Phone will have to remain paying BE charges @ £17+ month?
anyone else have an opinion?
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Its hard to see how its possible to make any serious money from an unlimited service @ £10/month*, assuming of course that (unlike Telefonica) you upgrade backhaul/core network/peering/etc to cope with increased traffic. Sky are doing quite a good job of keeping streaming traffic on-net so transit costs are lower than you'd expect for an ISP that size.
Without line rentals I doubt Sky would even recoup the costs of the svbn MSANs - which of course they may never do now anyway as GEA proliferates.
I assume that whatever Be users pay now, they pay until they (or Sky) terminate or vary the contract. Still not going to make any money out of them as they're not on the svbn MSAN and hence you're probably looking at two lots of backhaul interface to pay for in some exchanges - and no line rental income.
*no TV price
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whats the crack with o2/BE MSAN's...? do they belong to o2/BE and have been given to sky? or do they belong to Telefonica and remain for the smaller wholesale ISPs that used those MSAN's and network? just in that 'chat with sky' they say in some exchanges they will be upgrading the BE hardware with sky software... I thought sky didnt get the o2/BE MSAN's and why they are moving all customers onto SKY's network (where possible)...? i mean if sky acquired the o2/BE MSAN's why would they try to squeeze them all off those and onto sky's..? wouldnt they just turn the o2/BE MSAN into a SKY one with firmware and have the connected like that??
¬confused ???
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They belong to Sky now.
Edit - and Sky want the users on the svbn because the O2/Be DSLAMs don't have the same voice/data integration. As always the elephant in the room of BB pricing is line rental.
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I give the answers given in The talk to Sky some credence as it was conducted by Lyssa McGowan, Sky’s Director of Communication Products and her team.
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I give the answers given in The talk to Sky some credence as it was conducted by Lyssa McGowan, Sky’s Director of Communication Products and her team.
does that make you feel any different about it Rizla? hehehe
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No it doesn't. I still think its not going to happen.
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As a sceptic I would agree, but there is no ambiguity in the language used by Lyssa and the team, so there should as I said be some credence given and until she gets fired for telling untruths you have to assume her word is her bond. What has been said is probable true and is a short term strategy to calm O2/Be members fears and not incite everyone overboard.
I see the strategy move O2/Be to SMPF to keep 500k users the introduction of MPF now has merit (as these exhnages did not have enough skyusers to warrant exhange upgrade) then give the option to stay or leave and probably retain 350-450k with BB& phone with 200k opting for TV as well. Sky have to have the bait to catch, that's for the sceptics among us
Rizla your right it won't happen only because of the strategy above
That sky world domination in action
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Snadge, I have to agree with Rizla.
Until Sky changes the Ts and Cs and/or notifies their customers of these changes (if they happen) in writing, this post by 'Sky' means nothing as it is not a legally binding commitment. This sounds more like what Sky would like to offer, which could be very different from what they will offer :)
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well lets wait and see what happens, im not to bothered about it, simply passing on the info
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That's a good way of putting it saabw :
"Sky have to bait the hook" :)
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May I offer my book-maker's services to you all?! :D
Cheers, a
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[Mockquote]our intention was...... but having encountered insuperable problems we regret that we have decided not [/mockquote]
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I think sky have learned from the ukonline situation.
They closed ukonline and expected the customers to merrily jump onto sky, which had DLM, lack of static ip etc. I think instead many moved onto pastures new.
Sky probably learnt from this and now seem to be compromising to keep BE customers happy.
Also on FTTC sky seem to be planning to start a service where they can manage the dslams themselves as they have made a request to ofcom to allow it.
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lack of static ip etc. I think instead many moved onto pastures new.
Sky probably learnt from this and now seem to be compromising to keep BE customers happy.
No news on Static IP as yet and there's every expectation of migrations starting soon....... :-X
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Also on FTTC sky seem to be planning to start a service where they can manage the dslams themselves as they have made a request to ofcom to allow it.
Ummm why?
Theres nothing stopping them adding their own DSLAM and connecting to the cab if they want..
...or they can access the BTw DSLAM and use the BTw Fibre back to the exchange where its handed over to them.
Or if they are that keen why dont they directly roll out their own Fibre in certain areas.
I dont see the point in direct access and management of the BTw DSLAM.. are they ever going to open up direct management of their MSANs for other SPs. Nope I dont think so. :no:
I dont see any other Telcom ever having to do this... If I were BTw and had gone to the huge expense of installing cabs & equipment I wouldnt want other companies to be able to manage the hardware.
Sky is becoming the big boy of SPs, not sure if I like it. They want things all their own way and are hardly flexible when it comes to their own products.
No news on Static IP as yet and there's every expectation of migrations starting soon.
Time is getting short.. its reeking of a delay tactic, if they havent sorted out static IPs yet, then what hope is there for the other things they promised theyd consider.
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kitz well there is the adding dslam to cabinet which is already possible as you said but I guess they consider that too expensive. Also that isnt good for the future of vectoring.
What they have asked ofcom is a sort of intermediate option where they can rent the dslam ports directly having control of them.
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>> What they have asked ofcom is a sort of intermediate option where they can rent the dslam ports directly having control of them.
Exactly and that is something that no other SP does, or has to do worldwide. If BT has gone to the massive outlay country wide to install the DSLAMs why should they have to give control over to someone else. As mentioned even in the exchanges no SP gives anyone renting a port on the MSAN control of those ports and every port is managed the same.
I may have missed something but Im not sure how its good for the future of vectoring, Sky have never been pioneers and always ride on the back of someone elses investment/infrastructure. Even taking over of Be/o2 network they are abandoning some of the more advanced options such as annex-m and a DLM that the user can control themselves. They also abandoned some of the more pioneering options from Easynet such as SRA. Instead now sky customers have a DLM that Im not sure I like as it can serve to rate limit the EU and also no option to turn off interleaving fully regardless or not if the line needs it.
If anything this only serves to hinder BT as they would have to set up a new system in order to give sky control of the DSLAM ports, therefore costing BT more outlay. Like I say theres already several options for another SP to choose from if they want to.
In reality it could be a backward step for Vectoring as all lines need to be managed the same for it to work effectively and opening up the ports for SP configuration could prove problematic in this area.
Why dont they perhaps go after Virgin? Does anyone else have access to the Virgin network nope. I cant recall where I read it now, but BT took a chance with the nationwide roll out of FTTC costing them x billions and they estimate it will cost something like 11 yrs? before they get the full return of the outlay.
I guess we shall just have to wait and see what OFCOM say.
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Kitz,
In reality it could be a backward step for Vectoring as all lines need to be managed the same for it to work effectively and opening up the ports for SP configuration could prove problematic in this area.
I think you just misread Chrysalis, he was saying the same thing as you really Also that isnt good for the future of vectoring.
The obvious point is that for vectoring to work properly all the lines in the FTTC cabinet need to be vectored by one DSLAM. I am not aware of any capability to do so across multiple DSLAMs, whether in the same cabinet or not. :-\
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I think you just misread Chrysalis, he was saying the same thing as you really
Apologies - I did.
Must stop speed reading :blush:
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>> What they have asked ofcom is a sort of intermediate option where they can rent the dslam ports directly having control of them.
Exactly and that is something that no other SP does, or has to do worldwide. If BT has gone to the massive outlay country wide to install the DSLAMs why should they have to give control over to someone else. As mentioned even in the exchanges no SP gives anyone renting a port on the MSAN control of those ports and every port is managed the same.
I may have missed something but Im not sure how its good for the future of vectoring, Sky have never been pioneers and always ride on the back of someone elses investment/infrastructure. Even taking over of Be/o2 network they are abandoning some of the more advanced options such as annex-m and a DLM that the user can control themselves. They also abandoned some of the more pioneering options from Easynet such as SRA. Instead now sky customers have a DLM that Im not sure I like as it can serve to rate limit the EU and also no option to turn off interleaving fully regardless or not if the line needs it.
If anything this only serves to hinder BT as they would have to set up a new system in order to give sky control of the DSLAM ports, therefore costing BT more outlay. Like I say theres already several options for another SP to choose from if they want to.
In reality it could be a backward step for Vectoring as all lines need to be managed the same for it to work effectively and opening up the ports for SP configuration could prove problematic in this area.
Why dont they perhaps go after Virgin? Does anyone else have access to the Virgin network nope. I cant recall where I read it now, but BT took a chance with the nationwide roll out of FTTC costing them x billions and they estimate it will cost something like 11 yrs? before they get the full return of the outlay.
I guess we shall just have to wait and see what OFCOM say.
for whats worth I do agree with you. Whilst its great for the consumer that they may have a way of escaping openreach DLM on FTTC (but probably onto sky DLM), I think that would be a unwise move from ofcom to enforce sky's wishes. It will also likely hinder future investment as well in the tech. Although for vectoring its better than if sky installed their own dslams, the risk is if sky buy dslams they could be a diff vendor and then is a mismatch of vendors across a cable bundle. The best for vectoring is the current situation which is one supplier only.