Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: chrissie on April 14, 2013, 02:53:42 PM
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I apologise for having to ask for further help/comments and the fact that I'm a computer "dummy" but was wondering if someone could explain something to me please (trusting I've put this in the correct section)? I hope I've given enough information.
Since the old desktop died I had one built and the guy put Windows 8 on it <scream>. Anyway, it looks as though it is doing something to the router box or there's something going wrong when I switch the PC on because the internet goes down and then comes on for a minute or two then down again. My lappy has Win 7 with wireless connection but not used at the same time as the PC.
Details: Win 8 OS IE10 and the router box is Siemens Gigaset SE 572 WLAN dsl connected by brand new ethernet cable (2nd one) - ISP - EE (Orange). Router is 6 years old and has behaved impeccably until Windows 8 came into the house a couple of weeks ago.
When I switch the PC on it's ok to start with then the online light on the router goes off, then the LAN light goes off and PC tells me there are connection problems (obviously!). The other day I lost wireless connection on the lappy an hour or so after having tried to use the PC but connection came back and it was on ok this morning for the lappy then off with the PC.
Does anyone know why this is happening please and if me being terrified of "sorting" things on a computer can sort it OR will I have to pay a techy geek to sort it for me please? Thank you in advance for your helpful advice.
Chrissie
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No need to apologise Chrissie. :)
I think this must be an issue with the new PC. I can't for the moment think what could be happening, but my inclination would be to get the chap who built the machine to fix it because it seems to be faulty.
But others more knowledgeable about Windows than I am may have other ideas.
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Thanks for your reply Eric. I have been googling the problem but can find nothing definitive (or answers to) but there are others mentioning their routers and things not right with them using Windows 8....so maybe it might be the router box but will bear in mind the new PC too of course. How I came to choose Win 8 gawd knows :-X wish I'd stuck to Win 7 which is what I'm used to having the lappy ??? :)
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Hi Chrissie,
As much as I'd like to blame it on Win8, I'd tend to agree with Roseway that, from what you describe, it sounds more like as if when you switch it on it is causing some sort of electrical surge or other interference that is upsetting your router. Are they on the same (dual) socket, or extension lead, perhaps? Could there possibly be a loose wire in the plug?
Your description of what is happening on the router lights is (or at least seems to me to be) consistent with the router rebooting itself. If this happens _at the same time_ as you switch it on, and every time you switch it on, I would suspect some sort of electrical interference.
Before getting your cheque book out, and while you're waiting for other helpful suggestions, it may be worth checking the plug, and if possible plugging it in elsewhere, if only to eliminate some of the more obvious possible causes.
Good luck, and let us know how you're getting on ....
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Hi Chrissie,
As much as I'd like to blame it on Win8, I'd tend to agree with Roseway that, from what you describe, it sounds more like as if when you switch it on it is causing some sort of electrical surge or other interference that is upsetting your router. Are they on the same (dual) socket, or extension lead, perhaps? Could there possibly be a loose wire in the plug?
Your description of what is happening on the router lights is (or at least seems to me to be) consistent with the router rebooting itself. If this happens _at the same time_ as you switch it on, and every time you switch it on, I would suspect some sort of electrical interference.
Before getting your cheque book out, and while you're waiting for other helpful suggestions, it may be worth checking the plug, and if possible plugging it in elsewhere, if only to eliminate some of the more obvious possible causes.
Good luck, and let us know how you're getting on ....
Hi Colin,
Thanks for your input, never thought along those lines I must admit. However the plug is moulded one so can't get into wiring afaik. I have a 6 gang surge protected extension lead that all the things are plugged in to and this has never happened before I must say. Just wondering why the LAN light doesn't come on again after PC is switched off and unplugged and I've "rested" the router box by switching off for a couple of hours? Yesterday after the router box not connecting the PC and my switching everything off, several hours later I switched just the router on to use the laptop wirelessly but it wouldn't connect to the internet for a little while (on connection box it said Connected but at the top it said no internet access).....so not entirely sure it's electrical (but what do I know lol) more inclined to think tower and/or Win8 not suitable for the box :o
Hindsight is brill isn't it.....just wish I'd got Win7 and not Win8 as I really don't like the latter but now I'm stuck with it...sigh. :(
Chrissie
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Hi Colin,
Thanks for your input, never thought along those lines I must admit. However the plug is moulded one so can't get into wiring afaik. I have a 6 gang surge protected extension lead that all the things are plugged in to and this has never happened before I must say.
OK, well you've probably just eliminated those possibilities then. :)
Just wondering why the LAN light doesn't come on again after PC is switched off and unplugged and I've "rested" the router box by switching off for a couple of hours?
If whatever the router LAN port is connected to is switched off, then I would expect the LAN light to be off too? What do you normally see in such circumstances?
Yesterday after the router box not connecting the PC and my switching everything off, several hours later I switched just the router on to use the laptop wirelessly but it wouldn't connect to the internet for a little while (on connection box it said Connected but at the top it said no internet access).....so not entirely sure it's electrical (but what do I know lol)
Well, with all the additional info you are providing I agree that you have eliminated that possibility!
I assume you are refering to what you are seeing in Network Connections on W7? If so, 'connected' means via the wlan to the router, but the 'no internet access' suggests windows thinks that the router is not connected via the ADSL(?) link, or if you can confirm that it is (both DSL and Internet in the router, rather than Windows), then it might be that you have some sort of DNS or other external network problem. I believe that W7 and later send HTTP-type messages (outside of a browser) to some MS site, in order to tell you whether you're 'connected to the Internet' or not. If these fail for whatever reason (e.g. network down, can't find the site in a DNS host-to-ip-address lookup,or are delayed because of network congestion somewhere) then you would see 'not connected to the internet' in Windows - at least until the external problem resolved itself! (It's not smart enough to know why!)
more inclined to think tower and/or Win8 not suitable for the box :o
Don't give up yet, I would say. Go a step at a time. We now know it's not electrical. If we can find out whether the router thinks the network is available, while windows thinks it's not, then that would give us another clue. ;) At what point of the W8 load from PC power-on would you say that the Router falls over? That might give us another clue.
Hindsight is brill isn't it.....just wish I'd got Win7 and not Win8 as I really don't like the latter but now I'm stuck with it...sigh. :(
I can't swear to this, but some Win8 licences (I believe) come with a 'downgrade' right. i.e. if yours happens to have this right (and I suppose you'd have to ask the guy who got it for you), then (as I understand it) you could put Windows 7 on your new machine and use the W8 licence you've already paid for to activate it. Might be some consolation prize if you can, and you really can't stand W8 (and many people, me included, can't). Worth enquiring/googling about anyway ... ;D
Chrissie
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Hi Colin, thanks for persevering with me. I will try and answer what you've asked to the best I can..bear with me <smile>.
"If whatever the router LAN port is connected to is switched off, then I would expect the LAN light to be off too? What do you normally see in such circumstances?"
Yes light is off. There's 5 lights on the top of the router box, from left to right it's power - dsl - online - wlan (all grouped together) and LAN a little way away from those 4. This is the box http://tinyurl.com/catso7y
When the PC disses the box the offline light goes off and then the LAN light goes off. Sometimes the online light comes on but the LAN button doesn't. In fact after the PC disses the box and is switched off...the LAN light doesn't come on again when I'm using the laptop wirelessly on the internet yet I'm sure it was always on before this all happened.
"I assume you are referring to what you are seeing in Network Connections on W7?"
Yes the wireless connection box on the task bar on the laptop. I do wonder if the box is any good for Win 8 or if there is some issue because it's a new system - is it "overloading" the box or summat like that?
"At what point of the W8 load from PC power-on would you say that the Router falls over?"
Can't say precisely but think it's a few minutes and this has happened since we got the PC first time. Phoned the shop/guy where we got it from and was told switch box off for 5 mins then on again - we did and it worked for the internet connection then though cannot remember if it dissed the box again at that time as we didn't stay on PC long.
Thanks again for the help, all greatly appreciated though I just hope it's not going to end up too technical for me to understand/sort <the mind boggles lol>.
Chrissie
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Hi Colin, thanks for persevering with me.
No problem at all, we shall both need some perseverence as we try to diagnose (as best we can) what's going on here, but otherwise I'm glad to try to help you if I can. Just tell me if I don't explain something well enough for you to follow me. I will then be happy to try again & won't be put off in any way at all. :)
When the PC disses the box the online light goes off and then the LAN light goes off. Sometimes the online light comes on but the LAN button doesn't. In fact after the PC disses the box and is switched off...the LAN light doesn't come on again when I'm using the laptop wirelessly on the internet yet I'm sure it was always on before this all happened.
Obviously I could be wrong, but that sequence suggests to me that whatever is happening, it is causing the router to fall-over & reboot. When this happens the sequence on the lights would be similiar (or normally would be) to what they display when it's initially powered on. In my experience, they tend to try and bring the various interfaces (LAN, DSL, Online) up first before starting the WLAN (which is really just an extension of the Wired LAN ports). So, I could potentially understand if something exchanged between the W8 PC and the router caused your PC's LAN connection to 'hang-up' and the router to reboot. In that scenario, the router might reboot and re-establish the DSL, Online and LAN (and those lights would normally all come on). However if the PC's LAN connection was left in a 'funny' state by this, it might not connect properly, and so the LAN light might not come on until you try to access it wirelessly from your lappy. Does that make sense? ATM it's only a theory, but we could try to see if that 'fits' what you can see when this happens?
Seimens - nice!; presumably this is the Orange Live Box? I have a friend who may have/or know about these. I will try to ask him if he knows how we might be able to connect (say from your lappy) to the router to see a little more about what it thinks it knows about what's going on. If you already know how to do this, let me know, and then perhaps we can work out together what it can tell us, if anything! :)
is it "overloading" the box or summat like that?
Possibly 'summat like that'! ATM I doubt that it would be 'overloading' it, but it _may_ be sending something that your router doesn't like and/or can't cope with. That is a possibility. It's been known in the past that e.g. there have been problems with routers & newer versions of Windows over things like passwords or how well they display their screens to you in a browser. These are generally as much to do with the fact that a new version of windows generally comes with a new version of IE, and it's that that causes some of the issues that have been seen in the past. Haven't (till now) heard of it pushing a router over, but it's not beyond belief. :(
W8 is certainly different. Not just the way it looks, or how you're supposed to interact with it, which may be fine for all the tablet surfers, but it is really abysmal for those of us who still wish to use the familiar desktop. But it has some technical differences too: for example, the previous windows we know load everything from scratch every time you restart the machine unless you had previously hibernated it. W8 doesn't do quite that. When you close it down, it sort of hibernates instead (writing a copy of the PC's memory at the time to disc). When you restart it, instead of reloading everything from scratch, it restores the hibernated copy of your PC's memory and 'reinitialises' the drivers again instead. This makes it load faster. However, there is a chance that this might not quite work as intended with some devices. I can't say if this is happening here, but it is one significant difference with W8, and so it must at least be a _possible_ explanation that this appears to you to be W8-specific. You may well be right! ;D
Can't say precisely but think it's a few minutes and this has happened since we got the PC first time. Phoned the shop/guy where we got it from and was told switch box off for 5 mins then on again - we did and it worked for the internet connection then though cannot remember if it dissed the box again at that time as we didn't stay on PC long.
That's helpful. The 'few minutes' (accurate enough for me!) suggests that W8 will have finished it's 'fast (re)load' as described above. Was the LAN light on at that point? What the guy told you to do, might suggest simply that he thinks that your router box had not properly connected to the internet. But as he wasn't there to see your lights, it could be that or it could be that the LAN hadn't connected. The fact that it then falls over again after a) the internet connection is available, and b) presumably you try to use the browser, suggests - as you have said from the start - that 'summat' that your new PC is sending over to the internet via your router is upsetting the router.
At this point I can't yet imagine what that might be. However, can you tell me what typically you are doing with your PC when it happens? e.g. simply using the browser (any particular site, or not?), or possibly using some 'app'. Even if you are not yourself doing anything other than browsing, that doesn't mean that W8 isn't doing something in the background that you don't realise e.g. downloading new patches, or new anti-virus files, or whatever.
It is hard, but not impossible, to try to diagnose these things in this way. It is always better if someone is actually there on site with you, because they can literally 'see' things happening that will take us some time in this thread to do this way. So, if you can persuade/cajole/threaten the guy to come over to your place and take a look for himself at it, that _may_ get you a quicker result.
In the meantime I will try to find out more about the Orange Live Box.
Good luck, and hang in there.
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Aw Colin I really appreciate your time and effort. I have an update though :o
After being on lappy I've just been and switch PC on....ALL the lights stayed on and the LAN light came on too ??? I clicked on IE icon but although trying, it didn't connect, said this page can't be displayed. Clicked on one of my favorites to try to connect but blank screen...nowt. Yes it is the Orange live box btw.
However, the lights stayed on the router AND on the PC it said connected there was no indication that the ruddy thing was off line and the box obviously indicated that too <can I scream!>. I don't know if this is anything to do with it but the page that IE starts at is something like http://t.uk.msn.com or similar to that, do you know what that is? That's when it tries to show something and comes up page can't be displayed. When I use the favs sign into Yahoo mail it just goes on and on trying and ends up just the white page :'(
Now I know very little about the router box gubbings but SS44 helped me sort that a few years ago to secure it (thank the lord) so I haven't touched it since. Up on the PC I got the page up and got into the box but that's it.....it's like giving a baby a set of maths questions :D wouldn't know where to look and I admit to being a coward in that I don't want to start messing in there as at least I can get on tinternet with my laptop...erm.... atm.
There might be something in what you said about newer version of IE not doing things properly or whatever...but I have version 10 on this laptop so not sure now...is it Win 8 - IE10 - router box - Orange messing up....perm anyone from... :D
Don't know if any of the above helps but thought I'd better get on to let you know and when I shut the PC down, the lights were still on except the LAN one then went off.
Jeez, what an epic this is turning in to! :( Apologies for this in advance.
x
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Hi Chrissie,
Well that's definate progress in our search to understand what's going on. :thumbs:
First things first:
at least I can get on tinternet with my laptop...erm.... atm.
that, at least, shows that the router is correctly configured, and we don't need to start messing about in there. :)
It also points the finger more surely back to the W8 PC, which is good, because it is becoming the builder's issue then to find out why it is not working, and fix it. What steps, if any, were taken to configure it to work with your router? Possibly none, if he set W8 to get it's LAN connection info from the router box using DHCP? Is this how your lappy does it? I think you can right-click the connection in the task bar (of both the lappy and the PC) and select Status. From what it then presents to you, you can select the Support tab, and click the Details button. (I'm currently using XP as I write this so what you can see on W7/W8 may be slightly different, I can't remember, but it will be similar). If you can make a note of both and let me know any differences that might give me a clue :-\ (no rush for any of this ... well as far as I'm concerned anyway).
I don't know if this is anything to do with it but the page that IE starts at is something like http://t.uk.msn.com or similar to that, do you know what that is? That's when it tries to show something and comes up page can't be displayed. When I use the favs sign into Yahoo mail it just goes on and on trying and ends up just the white page
http://t.uk.msn.com is just the default (landing) page that MS has set up in IE10. But the fact that you can't access either this or Yahoo, suggests it might be having a problem with DNS (i.e. it can't 'translate' the URL address you type in the browser to a network (IP) address that it can connect to). That's assuming that at the time the PC can't get to those sites, you can happily do so from your lappy. Again, this points strongly to the W8 PC!! The fact that you use IE10 on W7, means that it isn't a browser issue either! :)
So, we still might not know yet what it is, but we now know quite a few things that it isn't. I bet that doesn't make you feel any better about it though! :(
One thing you might try for me, if you are happy to give it a go: can you 'run' a command window on the Windows 8 PC (you may have to 'search' for it on W8), and try this: ping www.bbc.co.uk and post here what you get. This might show us whether or not it can translate 'www.bbc.co.uk', or if there is some other network issue. Unlikely to be the latter when your lappy is using the same router box.
Keep up the good work. If you watch any of these detective things on TV - Poirot, Sherlock Holmes, Morse, whoever - it is always by careful observation of everything that's going on that they get the clues they need to solve the mystery! So, you need to continue to be our 'eyes' on this. ;)
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Colin just posting before I go for docs apt :( but I've been googling around (hehe) for days over this but COULD this be relevant? The guy who did the PC put on the bought version of AVG 2013 as that's what he sells mainly (could be an agent...not a secret one tho...ahem).
https://getsatisfaction.com/avg/topics/avg_blocking_internet_connection scroll down as someone has posted about Win8 and same problem.....
Only just found this, didn't even consider ruddy AV...and I haven't updated that because of connection probs. I WILL get back later and answer your questions above but thought I'd put this on before I go out.
You deserve a medal for all your help I must say. :thumbs:
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Just skimming through this thread, but I wonder if it's interference from the Windows 8 PC, or possibly even some kind of fault on the Ethernet side of things inside the PC.
As I understand it, the router is happy until the PC is switched on, then it loses synch (or reboots - I'm wondering which is actually happening here).
What I'd try next in this situation is this :
With the router lights showing normally, switch the PC on BUT NOT THE MONITOR. Does the router still reset?
If the router is fine after that test, it's the monitor interfering. There's your problem!
If it still resets, shut down the PC again, get the router working once more, then disconnect the ethernet cable between the PC and the router.
Start the PC up once more. What happens now? Does the router reset again? Or do the lights stay on (except the LAN light as you've got that cable unplugged. Obviously Windows is going to complain there's no internet connection, but it's the behaviour of the router and it's lights we're interested in at this point).
If it still resets, it's not something odd happening on the ethernet cable.
Finally then, get a medium wave (AM) radio, tuned to 612Khz whilst everything is switched off, and stand it a metre or two away from everything. Ideally all you should hear on the radio is a faint crackle or hiss, maybe a distant foreign station. Now switch the router on and let it settle. Then switch the PC on. Do you hear lots of noise on the radio? If so, how far away do you have to move the radio for the noise to stop?
You would expect to hear some noise with the radio very close to the equipment, but I'd have thought no more than a metre or two. If you can hear noise from a good distance, there's a fault in the PC or the monitor! (I had this a while back, turned out to be the power supply in a Dell PC)
That's what I'd be trying, anyway :)
Ian
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Good suggestions Ian. and a set of simple steps for Chrissie to try. Excellent. ;D
it loses synch (or reboots - I'm wondering which is actually happening here)
Hard to tell really (blind). There could quite easily be something in the Live Box logs, if they're switched on, and we could get at them. In practise I don't think it would make much difference, except that losing synch might be stronger evidence of interference of one kind, which your process will help to highlight anyway. :)
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Chrissie,
but COULD this be relevant?
Yes, it could ... and it could indeed prevent you from accessing the outside world if it had been incorrectly configured by your 'secret' agent. :lol:
but that wouldn't explain why the router keeps resyncing itself (or rebooting, whichever). :-\ :no: ???
I think it is well worth following Ian's very helpful steps above before we all go any further. That way we can at least try to confirm or disprove the presence of interference from your PC. :(
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One other thought...
Leaving the new PC switched off, if you plug the laptop into the router via the LAN cable, and start it up, what does the router do? Does it work ok (and the appropriate LAN light come on) or does it still reset itself?
If so, I'm thinking failing router or (more likely) failing router PSU...
Ian
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Hi again sorry for the delay in getting back and thanks too Ian for your help.
This is what I've done today if you can bear with me.
Router box was on - all 5 lights working and I used it with the laptop in a different part of the house and then turned laptop off.
Router box left on and all lights still working I switched the UNIT on and left it running. The online light went off 3 -4 mins later then came on again 2 mins after that.
I then put the screen on and all lights were on and still on 5 mins later - I did nothing just left unit and screen on.
I then clicked on IE to come up which it did and tried to connect, all lights were still on for 2 minutes then the online light went off and "Page can't be displayed came up" on screen. I clicked on RESET CONNECTION but online light still off and 2 mins later online light came on but "Page can't be displayed" still there.
All lights still on...left it for 3 minutes then tried IE again. Online light went off after 2 minutes and IE was still trying to connect. I closed IE page down, turned the router box off and also PC.
I then switched the PC on with router box off, went into AVG security to try to disable "web browsing protection" but I didn't know how to do it without messing about so left it. Then I switched the router box on, no connection came up on screen. I did the troubleshoot for connection it came up with it was "ok you can access some sites". I switched the PC off, left router on - all lights were on. Switched pc on, screen came up ok clicked on IE and it came straight on connected to the internet.
I then did virus update as it hadn't been done lately due to being unable to connect to internet, it completed it and computer with internet was still connected and working. I shut it all down and started PC up again with router box on and the internet connected straight away.
NB- when I say turned PC off I mean shut it down as per usual.
I don't know what to say, what happened or if it will work next time I start the PC up <scream>.....so if you kind guys have any clues or info as to what was going on I would love to know please. Thanks for all your hard work and helping me with all your great thoughts and suggestions. I just hope the PC behaves itself from now....and I'm keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't get temperamental again - dare I say, watch this space.....
Chrissie
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??? I'm going to have to lie down in a darkened room for a little while 'till I can get my head round that, Chrissie. I will reread it again (probably several times) and see if I can say anything sensible that might help. At the moment I am:
1) Confused ???
2) Pleased that it appears to be working now for you :)
3) but worried that it is only chance :(
I'll think it over and get back to you soon. In the meantime, Ian may be able to draw his own conclusions. :) I must admit I was beginning to be attracted to the possibility that it was the router PSU acting up. How long have you had this live box Chrissie?
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Hi Colin....think I need a lie down too after that little lot. Confused? Me too LOLOL. The router box is 6 years old I think...was all ok until "you know who" (Windows 8) invaded its space >:( Yes I know, all things have their sell by date - even moi....but gawd 'elp me if I have to get another box because I would not know where to start or what to do. So...sshh don't speak too loudly when talking about it ;) I don't want it to hear just in case :lol:
I will try the PC tomorrow again just to see if a) I wasn't imagining it being on line haha and b) that it wasn't a one off little miracle that occurs when one threatens to punch a piece of equipment's lights out! >:D
Chrissie
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Yeah, I'm wondering if it's the power supply for the router that's failing.
Anyway, so far you've proved that it's not interference from the monitor that's causing it.
It's interesting that it stabilised for a bit with the PC switched on, but when you started using it then it all failed again. That's what's making me think it's the power supply that's just balancing on a knife edge - it doesn't take much to tip it over and the thing resets.
Since you were able to use it OK with the laptop, what happens if you connect the laptop to the router using the ethernet cable instead of wireless? Does it then cause the router to reset?
I wouldn't get bogged down with AVG or firewall or anti virus - whilst that could cause you connection errors on the PC, I can't think of a scenario where it would make lights go out on the router or cause the router to lose it's connection.
The problem here is the router behaving oddly, which (it seems to me) is either the power supply failing, the router failing, or some sort of interference from the new PC upsetting it.
Since the laptop works fine wirelessly, try it connected via ethernet instead - does the router like that, or does it reset/lose connection?
That way we can narrow down the problem a little.
Ian
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Folks, don't discount software bugs.
When the PC comes up it can start various forms of chatter with the router, such as DHCP or UPNP.
It is possible that these packets may contain nad data that crashes the router. It is also possible that the packets are fine, but use features that expose bugs in the router, causing it to crash.
I did find one exampe of this ( lost the link) whereby the DHCP packets from XP SP3 enabled some new feature, that exposed a bug in firmware of some routers, causing them to crash. This specific example is not Chrissie's problem - it was too long ago - but there is always the possibility of a different, though similar problem.
@Chrissie... only constructive suggestion from above.... Have you checked to see if there are any firmware updates for the router available?
anyways, sorry for butting in on a thread already well managed. I'll go back to sleep again now. :)
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Sure Ian definately:
The problem here is the router behaving oddly, which (it seems to me) is either the power supply failing, the router failing, or some sort of interference from the new PC upsetting it.
including interference as 7LM suggested, as in
don't discount software bugs.
in W8! :hmm:
The striking thing to me in Chrissie's latest report from following your suggested steps, is that the resyncs are displaced in time (e.g. 2 mins or so) from other things (e.g. switching on the PC, or monitor, or ...). So, unless it is a randomly timed occurence of a PSU (say) hiccup, which it could very well be, then perhaps it is a different type of interference in what's being passed over the ethernet from W8 to the router that it doesn't like, just like 7LM suggested :-\
One of W8's things is this 'constant on' business, whereby it is constantly updating tiles and whatnot by default, whether you want it to or not. So, it's also _possible_ that some of this traffic is somehow 'interfering' with the router, like the examples he gave. :(
We just don't know enough yet to pin it down, until Chrissie is able to try your other suggestions. I'm quite sure though that she would very much prefer it if it just stayed 'fixed' and we all had to write it off as one of life's little mysteries. ;D
The other thing that 7LM mentioned (thank you for that too), relates to the fact that she 'fixed' it herself by 'resetting' the connection - although I _really_ don't know exactly what W8 means when it told her _some_ sites are now accessible! :lol: There used to be an old bug in XP that needed the Winsock layer catalogue to be reset in some circumstances, otherwise it prevented any meaningful connections. :(
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Morning all,
This really is a quick fly by, just glanced at your replies for the moment but will deffo look fully later. I have had router on for an hour all lights on. Switched PC and (forgot to tell you this..doh) as yesterday first time on, the PC came up "welcome - preparing windows" - on blue screen and just doing nothing. I pressed escape on keyboard...it then came up with metro screen BUT only 4 - 5 icons, same as first time on yesterday. I then closed it all down.
Switched router off - then PC on, it came up with full screen but ONLINE light off and all other lights on router. Got the desktop window up, clicked on troubleshoot connection which it did and ONLINE light came on router. Then it connected to the internet. SCREAM. I haven't a clue about this but ever thankful for all your help.
The taking ages first time when switched on and not coming up with full metro (or whatever it is) screen, is this Windows 8 bug or just a glitch as I know it didn't happen when I switched it on after I bought it....or has/is router doing summat to it? Sorry to be a pain in the proverbial...but just trying to give all info to you.
Thanks again everyone, appreciate all your thoughts and help.
TTFN
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Just to let you know chrissie that I have been reading, but Ian and Colin etc have always git there before me. I too went through wondering about most of the things Ian had already mentioned, but I must admit I'm now at the not sure stage.
I know this may be a long shot but what does anyone else think about putting routerstats on and seeing if it picks up any trace of EMI.. I would have thought the monitor would have been the obvious suspect, but I think one of Chrissies earlier tests ruled this out. From what's been said so far it could be clutching at straws.. But it may just show something up.
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The taking ages first time when switched on and not coming up with full metro (or whatever it is) screen, is this Windows 8 bug or just a glitch as I know it didn't happen when I switched it on after I bought it....or has/is router doing summat to it? Sorry to be a pain in the proverbial...but just trying to give all info to you.
Well Chrissie, I wouldn't swear to it, but it's possible that something caused W8 to invoke it's _automatic_ recovery process, which if the circumstances were such, might even have caused it to 'repair' (more or less 'reinstall') W8. That might account for a) the time it took b) the 'preparing windows' message you got - which normally happens at a certain point in Windows installation and c) the fact that that not all the tiles had been rebuilt on the Metro screen at the time you pressed 'Esc'. :o
Just my poor attempt to explain what you saw. :-\
When an OEM builder is installing W8 (or in fact anything from Vista/W7 onwards) on a completely new HDD, Windows will actually create 2 partitions on the disc, Boot & System, I think it normally calls them. The Boot partition is normally hidden from view but contains the (BCD) boot information needed to load windows from the system partiton (which will still become your C: drive). As time has gone on (Vista/W7/W8) this has been extended to include a full-blown recovery partition. So on the Boot drive there is also the stuff that is needed (a Windows Image file .WIM) to allow it, if needed, to in effect repair windows by reinstalling it!. The (BCD) boot info also contains an 'instruction' in effect to tell Windows loader 'if the normal load fails on you, please recover by loading this .WIM instead).
It's part of their drive to make W8 in effect more of a 'consumer' product that the person using it doesn't need to know anything about. However, it can be rather :scare: if you're not expecting it and don't then understand what's going on!
This is also why the (BCD) boot instructions are not on C: but in this hidden Boot partition - it's to (try and) stop us messing about with them - Daddy MS knows better!
[Edit] If this has happened yesterday and today, then I would think there is something definately 'not quite right' in the installed W8, irrespective of whether or not this has anything to do with the observed behaviour at the router. It shouldn't be repairing itself on a regular basis!!! :(
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I know this may be a long shot but what does anyone else think about putting routerstats on and seeing if it picks up any trace of EMI.. I would have thought the monitor would have been the obvious suspect, but I think one of Chrissies earlier tests ruled this out. From what's been said so far it could be clutching at straws.. But it may just show something up.
Well, FWIW, I think that's not a bad idea at all. I think we somehow need to find out whether it is EMI or something else. Anything that helps us 'decide' that, helps us half the size of the problem investigation space at the very least, and so fix it for Chrissie asap. :)
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Hi guys
Another quick in and out as I have to go out in a moment :( All going way above my head now so not sure how to deal with but...am on lappy with Ethernet cable plugged in but the laptop still on wireless connection so don't have a clue how to stop that and just use cable ??? router still has all lights on so that is still working but is that relevant if it's not being used by laptop! The lights are on when not in use at times anyway.
As for monitor, it's the same one we've had for 9 years nothing has changed there. I have this sneaking suspicion this is all to do with ruddy Win 8 "doing" something to router box. It seems it's ok (will check again later) if you switch PC on without router on, then switch router on it goes online eventually BUT as I say I will check that out again just to make sure. It's happened to be that way the last couple of times I've put PC on with no router then switched router on (the online light goes off and eventually comes on again) and I have internet access on the PC. Will report back later if you can bear it lol. Boy are you all doing a sterling job and I don't think I will ever be able to thank you all enough.
Chrissie
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Chrissie,
just quickly:
All going way above my head now so not sure how to deal with but...am on lappy with Ethernet cable plugged in but the laptop still on wireless connection so don't have a clue how to stop that and just use cable
Not at all you're doing fine, and we need you to be our eyes! _Sometimes_ there is a little switch somewhere (perhaps around the sides) on the laptop, which you can use to turn the wireless off (and back on again later). Have a look when you get time, and see if you can see one? ;D
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Quite a lot of laptops these days use one on the function keys for the wireless on off. They are usually in blue so you may have to get your glasses out and peer closely. :(
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Quite a lot of laptops these days use one on the function keys for the wireless on off. They are usually in blue so you may have to get your glasses out and peer closely. :(
Hi Kitz,
Yes now you've said it, it must be the F12 key on here as it has a tiny blue light on it with like the wireless thingy (technical term there lol) on it. Too late tonight but will try again tomorrow now I know I have to switch that off....told ya I was a computer dummy lol.
Okay, what happened after my last post today is as follows (and again thanks everyone for your help).
Router on - all lights on - I then switched PC and monitor on - all items on screen as they should be and came up straight away.
Tried to open HOME PAGE in IE in desktop - wouldn't connect and came up with "This page can't be displayed" I clicked FIX CONNECTION PROBLEMS the diagnostic box came up with "the DNS server isn't responding" the online light on router box then went off.
REPORT said - DNS server isn't responding - your computer is trying to use a DNS server that is incorrect or doesn't exist.
ONLINE LIGHT STAYED OFF. I shut the PC down.
With the router OFF I switched the PC on - metro screen came up straight away. Switched router ON
all lights came on and stayed on (it's always taken a couple of minutes for the box to be active with the lights coming on ever since we have had it) and I could then access the internet.
It seems that the way it's happening (or most times) that if the router is on and then I put the PC on, the internet can't be accessed but if I don't switch the router on until the PC is on and running I can get on the internet.
I will again try the laptop and Ethernet cable tomorrow - sorry for delays but life gets in the way lol.
Chrissie
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Reading your last reply in isolation, that really sounds like either interference from the PC causing the router to reset/lose synch, or a dodgy router PSU causing the same when an additional (very small) load is introduced (the LAN cable activity).
So trying the laptop on the LAN cable could reveal something useful, so please let us know what happens.
I'm going to predict it causes the router to reset/lose synch (ie the lights go out). But I'm not that confident in my prediction!
If it does, I reckon it indicates the PSU is failing, or the router itself is on it's last gasp.
But lets see what happens first :)
Ian
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Hi Chrissie,
that's very helpful. Although I'm having to make (hopefully) intelligent guesses about this (assisted by a little googling!) I assume that you have an ADSL service with Orange and that Orange use PPP (you would have a username/password for the Orange service?). Then the DSL light on the router comes on when the ADSL link is synched. The Internet light on the router comes on when the PPP connection is successfully made by the router over the ADSL link to Orange. As part of that connection your router will have been given its external IP address and the Orange DNS server IP addresses, that lets your browser find the sites that you type in.
Tried to open HOME PAGE in IE in desktop - wouldn't connect and came up with "This page can't be displayed" I clicked FIX CONNECTION PROBLEMS the diagnostic box came up with "the DNS server isn't responding" the online light on router box then went off.
No Online light on the router = no external PPP internet connection = the browser being unable to find the home page (or any other) because it can't access the external internet connection.
Therefore, this suggests something during the W8 load is causing the router to drop the PPP connection. The fact that this doesn't happen when you switch the router on after W8 has loaded suggests that whatever is disturbing the router and causing it to drop the PPP connection to the outside world is happening during W8's 'initialisation'.
I'd be interested in what anybody else has to suggest, but this is now beginning to look to me (as L7M also suggested) as if perhaps W8 is using upnp to try to identify and possibly configure your router during the load (e.g. to open ports in the firewall it needs for its various purposes such as telling you whether or not you are connected to the internet!), and that is what is causing your router to drop the PPP connection. or worse (reboot/resync).
OK, so that's my theory for now. Carry on please with the Laptop test tomorrow, but I have a feeling you won't be caused any problems (becuase it's W7); although Ian sees it the other way! :) I'll try to look further into this and see if I can suggest (others please pile in at this point) an easy way for you to get confirmation of this for us; and also give some thought to how we get round it (short of showing W8 the door!).
Hopefully we'll hear the results of your lappy test when you get the time. Good luck, and thanks. I told you that careful observation was the key to this, so you are a good pair of eyes to have on the case!
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Reading your last reply in isolation, that really sounds like either interference from the PC causing the router to reset/lose synch, or a dodgy router PSU causing the same when an additional (very small) load is introduced (the LAN cable activity).
So trying the laptop on the LAN cable could reveal something useful, so please let us know what happens.
I'm going to predict it causes the router to reset/lose synch (ie the lights go out). But I'm not that confident in my prediction!
If it does, I reckon it indicates the PSU is failing, or the router itself is on it's last gasp.
But lets see what happens first :)
Ian
Ian, yes this is getting very interesting. :) It all depends now on the result of that test, which way the fault might lie. I know that all of us would be happy just to be able to find out which and fix it asap! ;)
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Just in case we need it here is another EU report (on a different router) from http://forum1.netgear.com/showthread.php?t=83277 (http://forum1.netgear.com/showthread.php?t=83277)
Constant UPnP set events after moving to Windows 8
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Hi all, not really having any noticeable issues right now, but I am curious why this is happening.
Not too long ago, I installed Win8 on one of my PCs. Prior, it was running Win7 .... After installing Win8, ... I'm seeing constant UPnP set events. Has anyone else noticed this after moving to Win8? Anyone have any ideas what is causing this?
Thanks in advance.
Log excerpt:
[UPnP set event: del_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:20:17
[UPnP set event: add_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:19:44
[UPnP set event: del_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:19:44
[UPnP set event: add_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:19:04
[UPnP set event: del_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:19:04
[UPnP set event: add_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:18:32
[UPnP set event: del_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:18:32
[UPnP set event: add_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:17:51
[UPnP set event: del_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:17:51
[UPnP set event: add_nat_rule] from source 192.168.1.200 Wednesday, January 30,2013 01:17:11
and on and on and on.....
Might not be relevant, but I didn't want to loose it! ;D
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Hi everyone
Can confirm there is internet connection on my laptop using the Ethernet cable only...there's no loss or lights going off.
Can I just add that after searching on google et al I have come up with more things about Win 8 and dissing people off of the internet or their browsers. The consensus on average seems to be 3rd party AV's and/or their firewalls. Also has been mentioned on sites where Win 8 updates have caused problems, don't think this is it for me but again not 100% sure. I want to try to disable the browser protection or shield thingy I think it's called but when I've tried it comes up with "do you want this....to alter your computer" or words to that effect. I don't know what to do, not good at making these decisions or if it mucks up, how to put it right. I have AVG 2013 which seems to some people (along with Kaspersky and something else) to be messing with connection. Just thought I'd mention all this and if you want me to post the links to the info I've found out can you let me know please.
Again, thanks for staying with me on this one it's very helpful to me to have your input.
Chrissie
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Hi everyone
Can confirm there is internet connection on my laptop using the Ethernet cable only...there's no loss or lights going off.
Can I just add that after searching on google et al I have come up with more things about Win 8 and dissing people off of the internet or their browsers. The consensus on average seems to be 3rd party AV's and/or their firewalls. Also has been mentioned on sites where Win 8 updates have caused problems, don't think this is it for me but again not 100% sure. I want to try to disable the browser protection or shield thingy I think it's called but when I've tried it comes up with "do you want this....to alter your computer" or words to that effect. I don't know what to do, not good at making these decisions or if it mucks up, how to put it right. I have AVG 2013 which seems to some people (along with Kaspersky and something else) to be messing with connection. Just thought I'd mention all this and if you want me to post the links to the info I've found out can you let me know please.
Again, thanks for staying with me on this one it's very helpful to me to have your input.
Chrissie
Hi Chrissie, that is at least some good news. :) In the sense that perhaps it makes EMI/faulty PSU/faulty router a little less likely (but not completely in the clear!).
I can perfectly understand the things you are finding on the web about firewalls and their effect on browers. However, on outgoing connections firewalls act to prevent your PC from establishing certain types of connection, i.e. prevents the data from escaping your PC to the router in the first place. This is to prevent nasty sneaky trojan-horse viruses from calling home or whatever without your knowledge. While this could certainly also prevent a browser connection if it was improperly configured, the fact that it prevents communication with the router from your PC, does tend to make it harder to explain how that would cause the router to drop the PPP connection - unless it has some sort of 'no data received' timeout. Also the fact that this doesn't happen if you load the PC first then the router, is very hard to explain in terms of the firewall (well, by me at least ???).
Not familiar with AVG2013 myself, so I wouldn't want to advise you on that yet, but I'm sure that there will be others around who can tell you how to switch it off and back on again. That shouldn't be a problem for you, and would certainly let you establish that this is or isn't the problem. So perhaps that's the next thing to be eliminated.
I think it was the fictional Sherlock Holmes who said "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable it may seem, is probably the truth." Keep up the good work!
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Just an update with this bluddy Win 8 biz >:( >:( >:(
Left router box on and just switched on PC and monitor. Never before seen screen came up..."Hi...while we are preparing Windows....etc etc...!!!" then a graphic tutorial of one screen came up with "how to" just to show how to move to corners et al. Not seen all that before and why was it preparing Windows <scream>
Then the metro ui screen appeared with only 2 icons/apps on and that was it nothing else and then the ONLINE light on router box went off >:(
Shut down PC, turned router box off...booted PC up and metro screen with most of the icons I had on yesterday were there, switched router box on all lights on and now on the internet!
Words (and patience) fail me with this ""$**!!"** system. Why does it change most times when I switch PC on with router box on...why did the "Hi...etc" come up this time and not others...in fact WHY did MS invent this absurd rubbish that is masquerading as an operating system. Answers on a postcard to..... :(
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Oh dear Chrissie, this is giving you no end of grief. :(. Can I just get you to quickly confirm that when you switch off the PC during these tests, you are shutting W8 down first? If not, and that's understandable, then it could be something as simple as running CHKDSK /F could fix. Otherwise, as I tried to explain (if poorly) in an earlier post, this W8 behaviour really does sound to me as if W8 is failing to load, invoking it's automatic recovery, which is in turn 'repairing' W8, and that's what gives rise to the weird things you are seeing on the PC - or at least the ones that don't relate to the router.
This just should not be happening :no: on a regular basis (and I think this is the third time you have mentioned it happening). Irrespective of this strange router issue, you need to get on to your PC builder and tell him you think that W8 recovery is being repeatedly invoked - why?
I know this is just more grief, but I now think you may have 2 issues here. But don't worry we're all still here batting on your side!
[Edit] I think the Online light went off during this rebuild as W8 used upnp to find your router and create the internet connection for you. In other words it's a similar process (upnp router interaction) to that causing the router issue on other ocassions (when it's not rebuilding itself! :lol:)
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Oh dear Chrissie, this is giving you no end of grief. :(. Can I just get you to quickly confirm that when you switch off the PC during these tests, you are shutting W8 down first? If not, and that's understandable, then it could be something as simple as running CHKDSK /F could fix. Otherwise, as I tried to explain (if poorly) in an earlier post, this W8 behaviour really does sound to me as if W8 is failing to load, invoking it's automatic recovery, which is in turn 'repairing' W8, and that's what gives rise to the weird things you are seeing on the PC - or at least the ones that don't relate to the router.
This just should not be happening :no: on a regular basis (and I think this is the thrid time you have mentioned it happening). Irrespective of this strange router issue, you need to get on to your PC builder and tell him you think that W8 recovery is being repeatedly invoked - why?
I know this is just more grief, but I now think you may have 2 issues here. But don't worry we're all still here batting on your side!
Thanks so much for your support Colin (and all the other kind folk too). I am shutting win 8 down (with a sledge ham...erm no but would like to haha) by going on the "charms" <spit> and onto the power button and clicking shut down. That's the only way I know how to shut it down and that was via a Utube tutorial lol.
OH says we have to take the tower back and ask him to sort it but of course I feel it won't solve the router box problem as he will connect with the one he has. I think it is always worse with router box on then switching PC on....so far when I do it the other way round it hasn't been too bad - until next time when it proves me a liar!!
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Have to say I still harbour a hunch that there might, just might, be some incompatibility in the protocol dialogue between W8 and the router.
If that is killing the router then it might or might not imply W8 is doing something naughty, but it also would certainly imply a bug in the router, since any well-designed equipment should be defensively implemented so that any invalid data is just ignored... it should not be allowed to kill the router. In that case however, depending on the router;s age, it would be reasonable to expect a router firmware update as Siemens would more than likely be already aware of any such problems, or at least to find discussions of it elsewhere.
But I've found no mention of it anywhere else and also had a look at the siemens website and, unless I'm missing it, there is no sign of any firmware updates :-\
I guess one other tactic might be to try to prevent as much of the PC-router dialogue as possible, one step at a time. ie,
- Stop the DNS lookups by configuring the PC to use explicit DNS addresses, rather than via the router.
- Stop the DHCP traffic by giving the PC a fixed IP address.
- Disable uPnP on the router to cut down on uPnP chatter.
But I can be less than helpful in detail, as I have no idea how to guide Chrissie through the GUIs for ether W8 or the router, to try all of above. And of course, it could consume a lot of time but may not yield any answers. :(
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Hi 7LM
Just popped on for a minute thanks for all your info. I have seen lots of problems encountered written on forums about Win8 messing with routers/connections etc. I will pop the links up later when I'm on the laptop where they are saved (I don't know much about moving around in this Win8 atm).
The router is working fine now when it's switched on AFTER I boot up the PC and have the monitor. I've just done it now and all lights are on the box and here I am on tinternet :D
If it stays like this then to me it now seems that if the router is already on....blimming Win8 when booted up is not having the right conversation with the router box (all this technical talk haha). I wouldn't even know where to begin...and once again I am drawn towards AVG as well as this and other AV's have also been mentioned elsewhere as to them causing problems trying to access the internet with Win 8. :(
Can of worms I know and with Colin mentioning Sherlock Holmes ;D I think we need similar on the case :lol: Mind you, you guys are really doing brilliantly so I won't employ him yet :)
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I'm just dashing out, so this is a very brief reply regarding AVG etc.
I can't think of a scenario whereby any antivirus or firewall running on a computer would cause a router to lose synch or reboot.
Whilst I can imagine a bug in a driver for a network card, or a faulty network card, causing that to happen, a higher level application like a firewall or antivirus.. can't see how it could.
(I agree though that a firewall or antivirus could cause your pc to fail to connect to the internet, and produce errors on the computer, but I can't see how it would also cause the router to lose synch or reset itself)
So in my opinion the AVG thing is a bit of a red herring here.
I'm open to be corrected by others though :)
Ian (back later!)
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So in my opinion the AVG thing is a bit of a red herring here.
I'm open to be corrected by others though :)
I have to say I share that opinion, which is tempting fate as Sheddy and myself will probably be proven wrong. :D
However... the fact the switching on the router only after the TC is up makes a difference gives me another question for Chrissie....
What precise process are you using to 'shut down' the PC?
I've no idea whether modern Windows systems are similar to my ancient XP boxes, but when I click 'shut down' I get a further pull down, asking me to choose between 'log off' 'hibernate' 'standby' or 'shut down'. If Chrissie were entering standby, or hibernate, instead of shutting down completely then the PC, on awakening, may try to continue to use it's old DHCP lease. Whereas powering on the PC with before the router may convince the PC that a new lease is required.
And a related question to above...
Do you normally switch off the router as well as the PC when not in use?
The relationship of the two questions is that if PC does try to continue using an earlier DHCP lease but the router had been power cycled, then that IP may by then have assigned to some other device. That shouldn't cause the router to crash, but it might explain the difference in behaviour when the PC is switched on first.
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Thanks Ian....I understand where you are coming from I will try and post the link tonight where I read about AVG. Seeing that now the computer is staying connected (how long for though one wonders) AFTER I've put PC on first then router box...it still makes me wonder if AVG is not allowing connection. Mind you I have very little knowledge of all things techy anyway so I could be barking up the wrong tree lol.
7LM - thanks for hanging in there with me. With Win 8 I put cursor at top right screen, the "charms" menu drops down, I then click on bottom charm (settings I think...hmmm), then there's a power switch icon in that, click on that and it comes up with little menu "shut down" "restart" etc so I click on shut down and orff it goes.
Switching the router box off......not always when I switch PC off as I need it on for laptop downstairs so it depends on when I want to use it or if we are going out when it's switched off then.
I must point out again, up until just over a month ago I had no probs whatsoever with the router box, the old PC 9 yrs old that is...was Win XP and until that went kaput it was fine on the router and so was/is the laptop. It was the interloper Windows <evil laugh> that has gorn and broked it :o Only since attaching that up has it played its games.... bring back Windows XP I say lol.
Be back later so thanks for bearing with me.
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Things move fast on this problem .... ;)
Ok people, let's see if we can summarise and reach some sort of consensus?
1) I believe that we are all agreed that it is (for the moment at least) hard to imagine how the PC's firewall would cause the router e.g. to drop the (PPP) Internet connection. So, we believe that as Ian said AVG is a red herring in this particular case. Other people are simply seeing AVG blocking their attempts to access the internet, not reporting a router dropping the PPP connection.
2) Although it's not entirely in the clear quite yet, the tests that Chrissie has done to date seem to have made it slightly less likely than it originally seemed that it might be EMI/faulty PSU or router per se.
3) Whatever exchange takes place between W8 and the router, it only seems to cause the router some difficulty when it happens during W8 load. :( 7LM, yes there is a considerable difference between W8 and previous Ws when it comes to loading. It no longer (I believe) has the hibernate option on closedown any more as in fact it always hibernates when you close it down now, and in fact you have to go through some of the F8-style recovery options to prevent it from restarting from the hibernated image!! But on power-on load it differs from e.g. XP restarting from a hibernated image, in that with XP any driver changes would not take effect until the next cold restart. W8 on the other hand does what it calls a hybrid load, in that it reinitialises things like drivers so as to pick up changes. All this is just so much background on W8 (which I hope I've got right), and doesn't (I think) affect the issue.
However, W8 is built around 'constant on' internet access - in fact as long as it has an internet connection it uses a Windows Live email address to authenticate the user's password. This can be changed (and may well have been in Chrissie's machine). To my mind this puts emphasis on the fact that W8 tries to establish an Internet connection very early in its load now, and I think it is trying to establish and in fact influence (i.e. configure) the router to ensure that this is present.
Here's a hypothetical scenario. Please, anyone, feel free to take it to pieces. ;) Router is up with a running ADSL and PPP connection and most probably is already using its own firewall configuration on the PPP connection. That just seems like common sense to me. Then say W8 comes along and asks/tells the router using upnp, 'please open these ports for me'. Is it possible that if the router is willing to do this it might need to drop the PPP connection in order to apply the new router firewall settings as supplemented by W8? Could it be something like this that is causing the router to drop the PPP link?
Chrissie's live box is at least 6 years old I think she told us, and no doubt it's firmware is even older than that. I am not especially surprised that 7LM could not find a newer one. Of course Chrissie could ask Orange, but I fear they might be more likely to want to swap out her router than be able to offer a later firmware for the one she's got. I don't know how Chrissie would feel about that but I suspect she'd rather not, if at all possible. A lot has happened with upnp & Window's use of it in the last 6 years. It wouldn't surprise me at all if (assuming upnp is enabled in it) that the router didn't know what to do with some of the things it is seeing. They may not even be in the same format any more. Of course 7LM is right, it shouldn't cause it to fall over, but these things do happen, only too often!!
I personally like 7LM's suggestions. However, if he will forgive me, I would like to try them in reverse order.
I believe there is something called 'network discovery' in W8. I think it is designed amongst other things to find printers, routers, other PCs etc. I think it is this setting that drives a lot of (if not all) the upnp activity. So I'd like to try and switch that off first to see what effect it has, if any.
I'm not sitting in front of W8, so this is all vague memory, but: from the charms, select settings, then PC settings or maybe devices, but somewhere it has an option to switch off 'network discovery'. I'm sure a google will assist.
That would be my suggestion of what to try next. But, as I have already said, the more, and preferably better informed suggestions than mine, the better as far as I am concerned.
Finally, I do think that the OH is right in one respect Chrissie. I personally think you should be asking the builder to sort out this recurring W8 recovery rebuild you keep having. I don't think it is directly related to the router business, so I wouldn't even mention that to him, just this other thing. But whether to do that now, or after we get to the bottom of this router business, depends really on your patience and tolerance, and so it's your call.
Enough from me for now. What do others think?
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Just off to perform kitchen duties, so this is a very brief cat-call to mention that I suspect UPnP. I would never have it configured . . . :no:
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Just off to perform kitchen duties, so this is a very brief cat-call to mention that I suspect UPnP. I would never have it configured . . . :no:
Agreed B*cat. ;D
The problem, as you know, is that (almost) no-one configures it (on); it is already on by default, and switching it off is not always obvious or easy. :(
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Oh gosh I really am putting you poor guys through it aren't I...I'm so sorry. Colin I never realised just how "lethal" Windows 8 is....."built around 'constant on' internet access - in fact as long as it has an internet connection it uses a Windows Live email address to authenticate the user's password." I'm afraid I like to be in control (well as much as one can when not knowing a lot about techno stuff)....but for it to do what it does...hell, talk about machines taking over. I'm just glad that the PC is now our second "in command" as I use the laptop more and I can see the PC will now be used much less than our old one was.
You mentioning things about how Win 8 changes things (I think you said) every time it initialises (boots up to me lol)....well it certainly did when I started it this morning and it came up with the "Hi....whilst we are preparing...etc" since then not all the apps have come back from what it was like before that. I don't know why not of course and although I've not changed the screen to the small apps list, I can only hope the ones that have disappeared will be in there. FGS - no wonder people are not liking this damned OS, I don't blame them.
I will try it again tomorrow it seems ok if I don't switch the router on first (until it starts playing up again) so as you said Colin, my poor old router could be being confused by Win 8 and may even be too old for the swine. I'm loathe to do anything about that atm because it's fine for my laptop and I couldn't bear to mess things up so that I can't get online.
If I give a link here does it give any clues or is it totally different to what you're thinking as I'm not sure what it all means?
http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itpronetworking/thread/c13f49b5-9832-457c-a1e8-462fe9b49932/
You would have to scroll about three quarters down the page to see mention of this post and the following ones robtkp Friday, January 18, 2013 9:25 PM The thread itself doesn't mean a lot to me other than Win 8 is stopping internet connection. It may help you techy guys and may mean something to you.
Thanks yet again, you are all so kind.
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Chrissie, you need to forgive us if we are frightening you during our (or possibly just my) discussion on W8. :( It's not quite as bad as the impression I may have given you :) We're just trying to get to the bottom of what it's doing, and talking out loud!
Yes it is IMHO 'built around constant on' technology - much like virtually every smartphone these days is. In fact, MS have deliberately chosen W8 to be (more or less) the same version and so have the same look and feel on any platform, whether it is a desktop PC, a tablet, or a smartphone. That's why it looks and feels more like a smartphone that the windows you know. The 'constant on' thing is what allows it to present info from the various apps to you on the tile, _even_ when you haven't opened the app, e.g. it will tell you how many new emails you have, or what the weather will be tomorrow. But all this stuff can be switched off. It's just that by default, a lot of it is on.
The 'windows live' login is the normal default on W8, but as you may not have one or the guy who built it for you didn't know what it was, he has most probably changed it to the normal kind of login you are familiar with. So no need to worry about that either.
However, to make these things sort of 'work' out of the box, like a smartphone, a lot of these things are set up like that - to expect to have an internet connection and to use it. The discussion following from that is just that when it boots up, it probably tries to find the router to establish those connections even before you login. Hence the chance that if the router doesn't like or understand something about that it may appear to be acting strangely.
What I meant about it _potentially_ changing (some) things was that, as you will know from XP, if you restart from a hibernated PC, you just get the machine exactly as you left it. Since W8 does this by default (starts from hibernation, so that it loads faster) every time, unless it did something special, if you updated a driver it would never know. So, it sort of 'reloads' the drivers (and some other things) every time - but that only matters if they have changed of course!!
What you saw this morning, and on two other ocassions you have mentioned on this thread was not normal at all. Windows should not normally be doing this. It is a sign that something is going wrong while W8 is booting. It has (IMO) nothing to do with all the other router stuff we have been talking about. Which is why I say, at some point, you should 'tell the guy' it is happening, if it keeps doing that. 3 times already is decidedly not normal. :( :( :(
I've had alook at the link you've so kindly provided. Without going into boring details, I really don't think this applies to you. :) It is about problems caused to some people who use Virtual Private Networks (VPNs), and I am pretty sure you wouldn't use one of those. :no:
So, please be reassured. Although W8 is not what perhaps you would like, it can be 'tamed' i.e. reconfigured to switch most of these smartphone-type-things off, and you can just use the desktop as normal, even if they force us to use the Metro screen first! ::)
I hope to be able to give you some detailed instructions tomorrow on how to switch off the 'network discovery' whizzo stuff that I think just might possibly be upsetting your router. Then if you can possibly try that, we can see if it makes any difference to you. :-\
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If only I still lived in Kent, I would be willing to visit to give your friendly modem/router a soothing purr and configure it so as to refuse to play with BGW via UPnP.
From the age and description, I am sure it is the same version of modem/router that my B-I-L uses . . . It can be accessed via the 192.168.1.1 IP address. But I would need to see its GUI pages to be able to advise how to turn off UPnP.
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Morning Colin and B-C and all who pop in to help...
Yes I get panicky Colin only because I really don't know what I'm doing (d'oh..old duffer here lol). Thanks for explaining more and yes I can see what "they" want Win 8 as per the new stuff...smartphone type things...all good for the young ones no doubt IF you can get them away from their phones and on to the computer lol.
Can I just say I don't have to log in to the PC, the screen comes up automatically and I just use it...no log in and I must say I prefer it that way. Used to be like that on the old XP and on the first laptop I had but when I got this one (replaced under warranty) in the process of my setting it up I mistakenly put password log in :o
Yes I did wonder if the VPN thingy was anything to do with my problem but in one of the posts therein I notice someone saying, "If Win 8 broke this....what else can it break..." think I have to agree there.
I did email the chap last Monday but not heard anything which has annoyed me greatly. He has a shop and seemed pretty genuine (and busy)...but this is not good after sales so I will be emailing him again. It's a way for me to travel (s'why I wish I'd not got him to do it now) so I can't just pop into the shop unfortunately.
I will try the PC again to see if anything has changed...switch it on with router box on and then turn router off and switch PC on first. I'll see how it goes. B-Cat......that's so nice of you to say what you did, I wish you lived near too...I'd invite you in definitely (tea and cake supplied lol).
Thanks again guys - have a good day.
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If only I still lived in Kent, I would be willing to visit to give your friendly modem/router a soothing purr and configure it so as to refuse to play with BGW via UPnP.
From the age and description, I am sure it is the same version of modem/router that my B-I-L uses . . . It can be accessed via the 192.168.1.1 IP address. But I would need to see its GUI pages to be able to advise how to turn off UPnP.
B*Cat, I don't suppose you could impose on the B-I-L to provide you with screenshots of his router? ;D Well the GUI screens from it, rather than a nice fetching photo of the box! :lol:
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Good morning to you too Chrissie. :)
Can you please try this for me, when you get a moment, and repeat your previous tests to see if it makes any difference? Follow these instructions http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-8/turn-sharing-on-or-off (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-8/turn-sharing-on-or-off) and turn sharing off on your W8 connection to the router. As the article explains, • Choosing No, don't turn on sharing or connect to devices blocks the following applications and services from working: PlayTo, file sharing, network discovery and automatic setup of network devices.
This is only a test, we can turn it back on later if it also stops you from benefiting from other things you need.
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Good morning to you too Chrissie. :)
Can you please try this for me, when you get a moment, and repeat your previous tests to see if it makes any difference? Follow these instructions http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-8/turn-sharing-on-or-off (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-8/turn-sharing-on-or-off) and turn sharing off on your W8 connection to the router. As the article explains, • Choosing No, don't turn on sharing or connect to devices blocks the following applications and services from working: PlayTo, file sharing, network discovery and automatic setup of network devices. This is only a test, we can turn it back on later if it also stops you from benefiting from other things you need.
Hi Colin
A quick fly by (she says with duster in hand)...
First off I did exactly as I've done the last few days, router on then PC and no internet connection as box went off line. Router off, then put PC on and got connection.
Strangely enough - a coincidence...as I went to shut down PC I right clicked on network and connection and saw the turn on/off sharing...and thought I must see what that means...(did you read my mind of summat lol).
Popped in to read your thread there....did exactly what you said (checked what the chap had set network to and it was public).... I then changed the setting to turn sharing off and shut down PC - left router box on. Left for several minutes AND.....
:drink: :dance: :clap: :thumbs: :sun: :congrats: :clap2: :clap:
PC came on and I connected straight away to tinternet...all lights on and still on now YAYAYAY. I then restarted PC (just to check) and with router still on....PC fired up and I got straight on the internet.
Oh Wow....thank you so much for that. At least we know that works and hope it stays that way. May I just ask if the no sharing biz will affect anything on the PC? I don't download files or share them on anything, only really send emails and links or photo's in those...occasionally...and I can't think of anything else it may affect but thought I would ask you.
Thank you so much...I have to go now but will call back tonight to see if you have any further instructions but thank you again for that I really appreciate your help.
Chrissie
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:thumbs: You are most welcome Chrissie. I'm really pleased that we were all able to help you. ;D
Phew! (Glad that worked..!)
May I just ask if the no sharing biz will affect anything on the PC?
Well the two other main things are sharing files, and streaming music or videos ('PlayTo'), neither of which you seem to use. It will also probably stop you seeing other PCs on your network, but since you seem only to have your lappy and this box, that is probably of no consequence to you.
However, if you do find you need any of these things in future, we could either try the alternative method mentioned in the link (so please save it for future reference should you need it), or if we manage to get some assistance from B*Cat's BIL (isn't that very bird-like? :lol:), then perhaps we could shut it off from the router end instead.
The guy has set the network location to Public because this is the safest thing for him to do. But unless you forsee yourself lugging your tower into a cyber-cafe one day :no:, we could consider changing it to Private instead; but I wouldn't bother unless we need to go down the alternative route above some time in the future.
The basic difference is Public will have stronger firewalling on in the PC for example; but since you probably already have a) a firewall in your router and then b) an AVG2013 firewall on your PC, it seems a bit of unneccesary overkill for you. So, I wouldn't do anything else unless and until you find there is something you need that you can't do - then you can start a new thread and we'll all help to sort that out too. Isn't that what Kitz's about? ;D
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Congratulations on the successful resolution to a most obscure problem. :) :dance:
Regarding the modem/router's configuration pages, I can sense confusion and havoc will prevail unless I perform the screen-scrapes myself. ::) I am due to take my laptop system, a HG612 modem, PSU, cables and an ex-Beattie Tester 301C with me when I next visit . . . The idea being that I 'profile' his (EO) line, whilst it is in good condition and performing well. So all I need to do is to make a note to remind myself to also check the modem/router's GUI configuration pages.
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Just popping in to say once again very many thanks to Colin and everybody else who got me through this problem. I can't thank you enough really as not only faced with learning about blimming Windows 8 I had this problem to contend with and without your help here I don't know how I would have managed it.
I hope I don't have to put up another thread (you'll all desert if I do haha)...but as I've always known since joining this great site, there's so many nice people here who are kind enough to try to sort a problem if one has one.
Have a good weekend y'all and many thanks yet again.
Chrissie
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Im sooo glad you found a solution to your problem...
Now thats sorted I will mention this
Thanks so much for your support Colin (and all the other kind folk too). I am shutting win 8 down (with a sledge ham...erm no but would like to haha) by going on the "charms" <spit> and onto the power button and clicking shut down. That's the only way I know how to shut it down and that was via a Utube tutorial lol.
I strongly suggest that you look at the following thread....
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,11931.0.html
I now routinely install classic shell on any win8 PCs I set up.. I think it may make you very happy and make win8 behave much more like you are used to. :)
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Well I'm back again with not so good news unfortunately (bet you're all fed up with me...). I had the router box on this morning, switched PC and monitor on (as I did several times yesterday when IT WORKED properly) but once again :( the problem materialised. No internet connection and online light went off as before. I checked that the sharing thingy was still switched off and it was.
I then turned the router box off for a few minutes and left PC on.
One thing this time I noticed was when it was trying to make a connection on my home page and couldn't, the URL changed from that to isearch.avg.com and I've not seen that before so not sure why it did it.
After no connection and with router box off and PC still on, I then switched router box on and I had internet connection again, so it's with regret and damned annoyance that I have to say it's back to what it was. I can't begin to think why except for AVG having a hand in it but not really sure even there and I know you experts seem to think not.
Sorry everyone, will understand if you've had enough (because I have lol)... just had such high hopes after several tries yesterday and every time it connected as it should. Just not the perfect world is it :-X :'( :D
@kitz - thank you so much for that link et al, will deffo have a good look when this PC is behaving and I can get down to doing things on it xx
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Oh dear! :'( Ah well, this just means there's either something different, or more, to try. :( We'll need to look and find out how to switch AVG off for the next test, but I do think that what we have already done will be helping (and certainly not, not helping). So please leave sharing off for the moment, while we try to see what else there is. Once we've found that, we can always turn sharing back on again and see if that was the red herring instead.
[edit] this link http://www.avg.com/ww-en/faq.num-4497 (http://www.avg.com/ww-en/faq.num-4497) appears to tell us how to disable AVG temporarily. Please try this and repeat your tests ... if you have the strength! ;)
However, it is possible that there can have been more than one issue. All of us have always said, yes AVG can stop you accessing the internet, but we can't see how it can affect the router lights. The sharing thing was meant to help with the router issue, not any other firewall issues. But since they are both involved when you come to surf, it's hard to separate the two except one at a time.
Don't be discouraged, I'm not. We'll just need to think a little bit more about it. :hmm:
To leave no stone unturned, maybe we need to try using the radio tuning trick to see if we can literally hear any EMI interference (back to the PSU possibility again)? Others will be able to advise on how to do that.
[edit] the following by Kitz, courtesy of Ezzer:
Is there anything I can do to try track down the source of REIN?
If you suspect there is something interfering with your broadband, get an AM/MW radio and tune it to 612Khz. If you hold the radio next to an LCD screen for your pc as an example you would hear a distinct noise. This should fade away if you move the radio a quarter to half a meter away. Hold it by your modem/router and you'll hear the DSL signal.
If you get a distinct noise enveloping a larger area, then this may be picked up by your router causing an SNR problem (or even drop of sync). By using the radio you may be able to get an idea of where the noise is coming from. Switch the suspect appliance off & retest your DSL connection. By distinct noise you're looking for a clear buzz, whistle, clicking etc. White noise or a general shhhhh noise is less likely to be the cause of the problem, same as any radio broadcast. (In the south of the UK you may hear a French radio station from around 612KHz.)
Be aware that any noise heard on the radio is not always affecting your DSL connection, and you may still have REIN issues in the area which will not be picked up @ 612Khz as REIN is often notoriously difficult to pin-point. This method can be a bit hazy so don’t rely on it completely by any means.
Xmas lights are a classic cause, as are noisy electrical appliance with a long length of wire which acts as an antennae. Sometimes you can cure it with a ferrite sleeve (that small cylindrical thing you normally see along your monitor cable which doesn’t seem to do anything) which you can get from electrical suppliers such as Maplin.
Thanks to "Ezzer" for the above explanation on tracking down noise using an analogue radio, which has been taken from his post on the site forums.
Read more: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#ixzz2R1H2zUQ2
(http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#ixzz2R1H2zUQ2)
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the link and information. I think IF there is something interfering with the router et al it's going to be the unit of this new PC. The router was working well and going about its business with Win XP and my Win 7 laptop (wirelessly) and of course when I tested that with the Ethernet cable. Also I don't have a radio anyway, well only on main TV!
I am going to try to look again at AVG I don't have the link on the PC to put up where they were saying it was stopping internet connection. Just read however that Win 8 has Windows Defender running all the time (this was said on AVG forum).
Just to say that the following happened at switch on this morning. Router on all lights. Switch PC on - screen up "Welcome User" stayed on around 3 mins. Then message "preparing Windows" came up on different screen, then online button on router went off. Stayed on that screen for 3 - 4 minutes then the metro screen came up with only 4 apps on (store, IE, desktop, file explorer) router online light still off. I shut down PC and online light came on on router box. I turned ROUTER off, switched PC on - metro screen came up immediately, put router box on again, all lights came on and internet connection immediately. >:( so if I connect router first the PC has gone back to not getting on the internet - switch router off, put PC on and I can get on the internet....>>>>go figure...I wish I could.
Chrissie
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Thanks for the link and information. I think IF there is something interfering with the router et al it's going to be the unit of this new PC. The router was working well and going about its business with Win XP and my Win 7 laptop (wirelessly) and of course when I tested that with the Ethernet cable. Also I don't have a radio anyway, well only on main TV!
Well, as you know, I agree with you. If you haven't got a radio, well nevermind. I'm less convinced now about EMI, but wanted to show willing to look again for it. :)
I am going to try to look again at AVG I don't have the link on the PC to put up where they were saying it was stopping internet connection. Just read however that Win 8 has Windows Defender running all the time (this was said on AVG forum).
Golly, you really believe in defence-in-depth, don't you?! ;D Windows Defender and AVG2013 and the router all with firewalls! You must be bulletproof!! ;D
This link http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-8/windows-firewall-from-start-to-finish (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows-8/windows-firewall-from-start-to-finish) will tell you how to switch Windows Defender off as well. For the purposes of your next tests (tomorrow, I think you need a break!), please disable both AVG2013 and Windows Defender for the moment. I honestly don't think it will make any difference, for the reasons we have all discussed previously, but no stone unturned and all that ....
Just to say that the following happened at switch on this morning. Router on all lights. Switch PC on - screen up "Welcome User" stayed on around 3 mins. Then message "preparing Windows" came up on different screen, then online button on router went off. Stayed on that screen for 3 - 4 minutes then the metro screen came up with only 4 apps on (store, IE, desktop, file explorer) router online light still off. I shut down PC and online light came on on router box. I turned ROUTER off, switched PC on - metro screen came up immediately, put router box on again, all lights came on and internet connection immediately. >:( so if I connect router first the PC has gone back to not getting on the internet - switch router off, put PC on and I can get on the internet....>>>>go figure...I wish I could.
Well, I'm sorry to say that this appears to me exactly like the 4th time that you have accurately described what you see while Windows 8 is recovering (rebuilding) itself after it has decided that it was unable to load your Windows 8 PC properly for a (different) reason as yet unknown to me. I have said this every time you have had the bad luck to see it: this just should not be happening :no: :silly:, but I don't think it is causing the router problem per se. Unless of course, anyone else can offer an alternative explanation?
In these circumstances I think you will see something similar happening on the router lights, because if Windows 8 does repair itself, then the 'Turn Sharing Off' setting that you did previously will be lost (a good thing to check to confirm this scenario - if you didn't change it, then it must've been this rebuild!). This in turn will allow W8 to start nattering to the router again and possibly upset it.
So, really this continual rebuilding is now getting in the way of resolving the other (router) problem you originally reported. Every time it rebuilds itself it will be similar again (in most respects) to the first time you ever switched it on and saw this problem. So we are just going backwards again, it seems to me. :hmm:
Something to think about, but perhaps it might be better now to have the builder fix that problem first, and then we can see what problems we are left with wrt the router. What do others think now? :-\
But if you can get at least the two tests done (without it rebuilding itself) and with sharing, AVG & Windows Defender off, then that will at least tell us something.
However give yourself a break from this at least until tomorrow, and think it over. I understand how inconvenient it may be to have to take the thing back to the guy, but it just can't keep doing this to you. >:( :(
You can always point him to this thread so that he can see all of things you've tried, and the advice you received here from others.
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I've been giving some thought to anything else that might be giving rise to the "Preparing Windows" appearing repeatedly like this :hmm: and an alternative possibility has now occurred to me - could it possibly be a Windows Update that is failing to complete properly, and so is being attempted again on successive loads? What do others think of that possible scenario?
Chrissie, next time you manage to get it loaded, perhaps we could try looking in Windows Update to see if there are any signs of this. I will try to find some instructions for you on how to do this.
[Edit] Please use this link http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows-8/windows-update#1TC=t1 (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows-8/windows-update#1TC=t1) to temporarily turn Automatic Updating off.
then access (if you can :)) this link update.microsoft.com (http://update.microsoft.com), select Review your Update History, and tell us if it seems as if there is some update that is being repeatedly attempted, whether is is successful or fails.
Thanks.
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Hi Colin
Thank you again for continuing to look at this problem for me, as said...really appreciate it. Right...just going to say I am going to just let it ride for a day or two because...and wait for it, this afternoon I just had router on as I was busy elsewhere, came in and switched PC on just (for a laugh ahem) to see what would happen. It booted straight up no problems, so no messing about and straight on the internet ??? What I did before I switched off this morning was in passing to CLEAR personal details from the tiles, not seen this before but thought I'd try it. Now I'm not saying this was part of the problem but somewhere along the line maybe it's just a small thing that is doing the disconnecting or not connecting to the internet and with turning the sharing off and doing bits to other things it might just help.
After the afternoon switch on, I cleared tile personal details (what's that all about anyway fgs) shut down, left router on. Couple of minutes later booted PC up again...all well, straight on the internet too. Did it once more a little while later and on again and was ok. So whilst after the first let down when I thought we had the solution but it regressed, I don't count this as IT....I am just wondering if I should just try now and again to see what transpires with switching on and trying etc.
AVG is "wanting" to do a scan but haven't had time for that so postponing atm...will try and let it do one tomorrow. I will also see what I can find out about Windows update as your last suggestion may be valid methinks... I'm still unsure how and where to find things but will have a look when I have the time. So I'll let you rest ;D on this for a couple of days and I'll write down any significant things that might happen and post later.
I had already decided to email the build guy but holding off again for a couple of days....just in case. As for "belt and braces" for the security....the only thing I asked him to put on was an AV and being the agent (ssshhh) for AVG he did that one. As for Windows Defender, I knew nowt about that until today when I saw it on one of the tiles and looked it up as to what it did lol. I then said to OH perhaps what with that and AVG and any other little bits on here, there may be conflict on them re getting on the internet (but what do I know lol).
Anyway, I'll get back to you as I'm on the lappy tonight so not able to try the PC again until tomorrow. I cannot fault you for sticking with me Colin - bet you're sick of me by now :-[ - hope I'm not taxing your brain too much :D
Speak later
Chrissie
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That's absolutely fine. Take a break and let things settle. We'll all be here when you're ready. ;D
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E U R E K A! (she says cautiously). I am quietly confident that I have found the culprit and given it a good thrashing. I am sure internet connection problems with my poor old router is AVG! Over the last day and now today, I have tried, re-tried and tried again and I am 99% sure it IS AVG.
This is what I did:
I disabled WEB BROWSING – that is LinkScanner Surf Shield and Online Shield in AVG.
Switched the router box off, shut the PC down.
Switched the router box on, all lights working, left it for a few minutes.
I then booted up the PC.
Up came the usual screen and through desktop I got straight onto the internet.
No loss of lights or connection to the router!
Throughout yesterday at different times of the day with leaving the router on continuously and PC shut down I booted PC up 8 times. Everytime it worked correctly. No lights went off on the router box and I had internet connection. :clap:
This morning: I decided to test the AVG/router problem again by enabling the LinkScanner Surf Shield and Online Shield to create what was going on before my tests yesterday. From that I concluded that it must be Web browsing enabled that was the problem (they don't call me Miss lost-your-Marbles (Marple) for nothing!).
I switched router off, shut down PC, switched router back on, then PC and it just would not connect to the internet and came up with same old “DNS server fault” AND the online light went off on the router box.
I then shut all down again after DISABLING the two things in Web browser then switched on as before (router first PC next)....but it would not connect this time. I then noticed that AVG had done an update and it seemed from that update time it would not connect. I “fiddled” about with bits and bobs (turned firewall off AVG and put Windows firewall on) still no connection. Then rebooted and connection was there but IE would not connect to the internet. I then did an AVG scan (first one on the PC) and after that, Houston we have connection which I've confirmed a few times since. I feel sure that little 'ole AVG >:( is the fly in the ointment and hopefully (she says wistfully) if I keep the web browsing in AVG disabled.....it might continue connecting and give me some space to actually learn about Win8.
So that's the latest, anymore problems with this and I'm off to the build guy to let him sort it out. Once again my heartfelt thanks for all your thoughts, comments and help with this "bleeping" problem. It has given me confidence to try to sort things even if I don't always find a solution or know what I'm doing :-[ , without your help I doubt I could do it.
Catch up with you soon (don't hide).
Chrissie
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Well done Chrissie (and well done to the helpers too). I hope that all's well now. :fingers:
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Excellent news! :thumbs:
I'll admit, I was skeptical that AVG could be causing so much woe for you, but I stand corrected!
Ian
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:clap:
:fingers:
But if problems return, I'd personally be inclined to just replace the router. Even if disabling AVG made the problem go away, and even if AVG was doing something wrong, there would still be a bug in the router, which should have simply ignored anything it didn't like. :(
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:congrats: Well done Miss Marple, 'no matter how implausible it seems, it must be the truth', and that's what you thought all along. :clap2: What do we know?! :lol:
I doff my deer-stalker to you in admiration of your persistence and tenacity (while, if you forgive me, keeping my fingers tightly crossed that it stays like that!) ;)
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Yes I too hope "that's it" guys....I'm not complacent though and won't be surprised if things do go "awol" again (husha ma mouth)....this seemed too simplistic a solution to me really (or am I just cynical lol) but I'm going with it until it tells me otherwise - is there a saying never trust a computer :D
Again it is down to everyone's efforts here with help and suggestions, that's what's so good about this lovely site and the users here ready to offer help. It's all worthwhile and giving confidence to me to try things because I'm terrible for that in case I muck 'em up and can't get things back on track.
Am now trying to find out more about Win 8 but am glad I've got windows shell desktop on it as I don't think I'd like just the tiles business personally and not seen many comments from people who like the OS much either....wonder if MS will abandon it eventually.... ::)
Have a good day everyone and thanks again.
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The latest thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12448.msg234723.html#msg234723), that I have just started, may contain information that is of interest to you, Chrissie. ;)
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The latest thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12448.msg234723.html#msg234723), that I have just started, may contain information that is of interest to you, Chrissie. ;)
Thank you burakkucat - just had a look thanks. I think Win 8 will be changed or dissed very soon with all the comments I've read about it. Not seen many positive things said about it and the start menu/button seems the main issue most of the time. I have found out how to create a one-move shut down button for it ;D and at least the guy created the Win7 shell desktop which I much prefer using... so hopefully if AVG behaves itself I might (sort of) get used to the new PC...here's hoping ;D
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:thumbs: