Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: TableLeg on April 13, 2013, 12:52:35 PM
-
I am finding that when ever my treadmill is started our internet connection is dropped.
I have tried 3 different routers now and all are affected.
I have a filtered faceplate, with the adsl cable going directly into the router.
I have Belkin Gold surgemaster but do not know if this can be utilised in any way to protect the dsl (it protects the normal phones via the inbuilt phone sockets).
I know that I can try plugging the treadmill into a socket in a different part of my house (which I will do) or moving the treadmill (not an option).
I have also looked at whether a UPS would be of any use.
Can anybody offer any advice or suggestions?
???
-
Treadmills used to be fairly notorious for knocking out ADSL connections, but I haven't seen it mentioned recently. If the treadmill is new, I would take it back to where I bought it and demand a refund. Electrical equipment has to conform to interference regulations, and I doubt that your does (although I admit to knowing nothing about the subject).
If that isn't an option, then I suppose that you need to determine whether the interference is mains-borne or radiated. If the latter, then you might find relief by moving the treadmill as far away from the router as possible. If it's mains-borne, then an interference suppressor might do the trick.
-
Treadmills used to be fairly notorious for knocking out ADSL connections, but I haven't seen it mentioned recently. If the treadmill is new, I would take it back to where I bought it and demand a refund. Electrical equipment has to conform to interference regulations, and I doubt that your does (although I admit to knowing nothing about the subject).
If that isn't an option, then I suppose that you need to determine whether the interference is mains-borne or radiated. If the latter, then you might find relief by moving the treadmill as far away from the router as possible. If it's mains-borne, then an interference suppressor might do the trick.
Thanks Roseway for the swift reply.
The treadmill is about 3 years old now, it cant really be moved anywhere else (except in the garden and the missus wont have that! nor will she let me chuck it in the skip!).
The treadmill is currently in a completely different room separated by a blockwork wall and has an airing cupboard in between it.
I don't seem to have any other issues with electrical devices i.e. tablet pc etc.
Any idea's how I could go about further testing?
I figured I could try in another socket outside of the ring which powers the router (we have 2x separate ring mains) to see if that affects the router. If it does then I guess this would show its mains-borne.
-
Powering then treadmill from the other ring might make a difference (certainly worth trying), but obviously they're joined together at the consumer unit, so I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to persuade your missus to use an exercise bike instead. ;D
My guess would be that it's probably mains-borne interference, in which case a suppressor on the supply to the treadmill would be the best solution.
-
Perhaps the easiest solution would be to persuade your missus to use an exercise bike instead. ;D
Thats funny because she does that as well but wont give up the treadmill! :doh:
My guess would be that it's probably mains-borne interference, in which case a suppressor on the supply to the treadmill would be the best solution.
Can you point me in the direction of such a suppressor? Is it the sort of thing I could find in Maplin? Is it something I have to plug in? Or something I'd need to wrap around the power cable?
-
This is an area I know little about, but the common Belkin surge suppressors usually include RFI filtering as well. Take this one as an example: 6-socket Belkin surge suppressor (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Belkin-6-Socket-UK-Surge-Spike-Protector-Supressor-Mains-Power-Extension-2m-Lead-/200794849900). It claims 58 dB RFI suppression, which sounds good, but you'd need to look at the spec more closely.
-
A supressor could also make the interference less effective in disturbing to ADSL.
I would do a web search - Maplin is a place to start, not sure but adverts were on the web last time I looked. The best type would be small enough to go right inside the bike housing - so there isn't a few feet of cable to a filtered socket set to radiate.
You could use a transistor radio to prove it is the source if you aren't sure
JGO
-
This is an area I know little about, but the common Belkin surge suppressors usually include RFI filtering as well. Take this one as an example: 6-socket Belkin surge suppressor (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Belkin-6-Socket-UK-Surge-Spike-Protector-Supressor-Mains-Power-Extension-2m-Lead-/200794849900). It claims 58 dB RFI suppression, which sounds good, but you'd need to look at the spec more closely.
Thanks again Roseway, The below is in fact what im using and is a better version than that you linked to http://www.belkin.com/uk/F9G723-3M-F/p/P-F9G723-3M-F however..............
:-[ On checking the wiring behind the Tv unit the router wasn't plugged into it (there's 12 sockets back there! :o), I have one normal 4 way surge protector and the 8 way Belkin Gold surge protector. I have switched some of the sockets around so that the router is in the Belkin Gold surge protector but will have to wait until tomorrow until the missus is again on the treadmill to find out if it has helped.
-
A supressor could also make the interference less effective in disturbing to ADSL.
I would do a web search - Maplin is a place to start, not sure but adverts were on the web last time I looked. The best type would be small enough to go right inside the bike housing - so there isn't a few feet of cable to a filtered socket set to radiate.
You could use a transistor radio to prove it is the source if you aren't sure
JGO
Thanks JGO,
I did try a search but the results were inconclusive. Most suggestion were to move the treadmill but this is not an option for me. I will have a look at Maplin though and see if anything shows up.
-
Thanks again Roseway, The below is in fact what im using and is a better version than that you linked to http://www.belkin.com/uk/F9G723-3M-F/p/P-F9G723-3M-F however..............
:-[ On checking the wiring behind the Tv unit the router wasn't plugged into it (there's 12 sockets back there! :o), I have one normal 4 way surge protector and the 8 way Belkin Gold surge protector. I have switched some of the sockets around so that the router is in the Belkin Gold surge protector but will have to wait until tomorrow until the missus is again on the treadmill to find out if it has helped.
Just one thing - what I was suggesting was that the treadmill should be suppressed, rather than the router. This would stop interference from the treadmill getting into the mains wiring and potentially radiating all over the place. What you're currently doing might solve the problem anyway, but if it doesn't then I suggest that you try using the surge suppressor with the treadmill.
-
Just one thing - what I was suggesting was that the treadmill should be suppressed, rather than the router. This would stop interference from the treadmill getting into the mains wiring and potentially radiating all over the place. What you're currently doing might solve the problem anyway, but if it doesn't then I suggest that you try using the surge suppressor with the treadmill.
Thanks again Roseway,
Any problem therefore with me pursuing a suppressor as you suggest as well? It could only help could it not?
-
"Any problem therefore with me pursuing a suppressor as you suggest as well? It could only help could it not? "
At very worst it wouldn't make things worse. The best option would be a combined supressor, which "squashes" the interfering pulse, and a line filter which keeps the interference at home, was it by 58 dB ? which is a power reduction of about 700,000:1 by my mental arithmetic - useful !
JGO
-
Thanks JGO,
I'm still not entirely sure what it is i'll be looking for.
I typed 'Suppressor' into Maplin and the result has not helped at all :-[
-
There's a hefty PDF article on RFI here by Jim Brown K9YC [1]. It's written for radio hams, but much should apply here too :-)
cheers, a
[1] http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
-
There's a hefty PDF article on RFI here by Jim Brown K9YC [1]. It's written for radio hams, but much should apply here too :-)
cheers, a
[1] http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
Thanks for the info asbokid :)
-
I've just made a posting "Anti Interference components" as Maplin seem to be out of the market and few people seem to search other posts before starting a new one !
-
Thanks again JGO,
Are these the sort of things
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/sis.html;jsessionid=CF9A5BFC1F784194DF4115FD7D2B71F1?_nkw=9mm%20Cable%20Ferrite%20Snap%20On%20EMI%20RFI%20Noise%20Core%20Filter%20x4&_itemId=320430851725
I hope so, as it turns out I have a spare one supplied with my TV that I haven't used. I might try putting it on to the treadmill lead.
:)
-
"Ferrites" - a bit vague, like a lady we once knew who couldn't understand why a car "Service" varied so much in cost. A 3,000 mile service isn't the same as a 27,000 mile one, and the grade of ferrite makes a similar difference. Quoting from one maufacturer, there are 13 grades with permeabilites ranging from 1500 to 10 and max usable frequencies from 500 kHz to 200 MHz.
By all means try it, but it may not be as good as a properly defined filter, and it doesn't include a spike supressor. It depends how bad the interference and your line attenuation are.
-
Oh ok, then im still none the wiser as to what I would actually need to buy should I need one ???
Thanks anyway.
-
I don't think ferrite suppressors are going to do much for you in this situation. A proper filter of the kind discussed earlier will be far more effective. What you need is something which will have a high rejection at frequencies in the ~10 kHz to 2 MHz range.
-
Has anyone suggested that if the treadmill uses a brush type motor it might be an idea to have a look at the state of the brushes. I should think that this is the most likely source of interference or do treadmills use a special sort of motor that is prone to upsetting ADSL as you might guess from reading the technical forums. Just a thought.
Tony
-
I think you've got a good point there, Tony. A quick search suggests that treadmills do use brush type motors, and there are several companies offering replacement brushes.
-
I don't think ferrite suppressors are going to do much for you in this situation. A proper filter of the kind discussed earlier will be far more effective. What you need is something which will have a high rejection at frequencies in the ~10 kHz to 2 MHz range.
Exactly, but a filter designed to protect the Long and Medium broadcast bands will be ideal. However, first, have a look and see if the brushes are giving a firework display ! A new set of brushes may stop mechanical damage too ( although that would fix the interference :=) )
-
Thanks all for the replies :).
I'll read (and re-read ???) your information and then take it from there. I'll have to look into whether there are even any spare parts for the motor. I know for one thing that whilst the motor still drives the treadmill my missus couldn't give a monkeys about the internet ::)
-
As the noise is apparently generated at startup it is (IMHO) more likely that the motor doesn't have noise suppression capacitors or (more likely) that the existing caps are hopelessly inadequate for the job.
I wouldn't like to advise further until I had more idea what we're dealing with here - eg is it an AC motor or a DC motor (DC would be my tenuous bet for torque reasons) - but nine times out of ten noise coming from motors on startup is due to inadequate caps or caps fitted too far away from the motor casing.
-
I wouldn't like to advise further until I had more idea what we're dealing with here - eg is it an AC motor or a DC motor (DC would be my tenuous bet for torque reasons) - but nine times out of ten noise coming from motors on startup is due to inadequate caps or caps fitted too far away from the motor casing.
Let me know what information you need and I'll do my best to give it :)
-
Well some indication of model number/manufacturer of treadmill and if there's an access plate at the bottom (I'd imagine there is) then any numbering on the motor under that plate would be a start.
I'm sure there's plenty of people here who'll google it, etc.
If its 3 years old and used every day then its a fair bet the brushes are shot to bits (can't use a better word here :P ).
Were it me then I'd be inclined to replace the motor rather than the brushes simply because the new motor will come with a warranty. Oh and the fact that I hate motors and generators - left-hand, right-hand rules, bleh - might have had something to do with the fact I did that side of things at sea :D
You can probably slug it (AKA "slap a cap" or put a capacitor across the terminals) so the noise you have now isn't an issue but best if you post some details of the beast.
-
Thanks Rizla :)
Info as follows as taken from the sticker on the treadmill itself.
Manufactured by:
Roger Black fitness (MK9 2NW)
Model:
AG-12302 Gold medal treadmill
Class:
H (Home)
Voltage:
220~240 VAC 50/60Hz
Ampere:
8A
Watt:
800w
Compliance with:
EN957-1/EN957-6
Hope that's of some help.
:)
-
Hmmm can't find anything about that apart from a couple of links that purport to be a manual but are actually executables containing InstalleRex.I.Gen trojans.
Looks like Argos sold it and acted as agents for whoever manufactured it - there is no UK company by that name, nor has there ever been a UK company by that name so I assume its some generic far-east sweatshop who built it and Roger Black got some cash for putting his name to it.
Argos look like they're clearing stock (they're half-price now) so I assume its end-of-line kit.
Googling seems to indicate the motor (whatever it is) is well under-specced and the bearings for the tread have early-life failure problems. Reading between the lines I think the unit was probably grossly over-priced for the build standard (ie its cheap garbage) and has inherent design flaws in the motor/tread.
Your best bet is to try contacting Argos to see if they can help with spares. This looks like generic Chinese kit made to order in a no-name factory so if Argos can't help then you're going to have to take it to bits and take a look at the motor :(
-
Find the PCB electronic controller, and wrap some tin-foil around it !! ;) ;D ;D
-
Maplin did a 4 way extension cable for about 20 quid - sold as some hi-fi mains filter IIRC. It's a 3 pole low-pass filter from what I remember and the rolloff is about 5kHz - there's a decent sized choke in there for sure so the rolloff will be in that range.
Its pretty damn useless for its stated purpose (filtering input noise to hi-fi PSU) as decent hi-fi stuff has that built-in but it does a decent job of filtering noise going the other way - ie equipment generating conducted noise onto the mains. I use one myself for some equipment that splatters noise right in the middle of ADSL upstream tones and it does the job.
Maybe worth a punt?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/6-way-flat-screen-and-hdtv-surge-protector-and-mains-filter-219077
That looks similar but I don't know if its the same thing as the chunky end-piece on mine is transparent (hence I know the size of the choke).
The danger of course is that your interference isn't conducted but radiated. Only one way to find out without test equipment and thats to try filtering the conducted path.
Edit - that's not the one I used. This one is :
http://www.maplin.co.uk/6-way-mains-conditioner-plus-rfi-filter-for-home-cinema-and-hi-fi-46830
It has good insertion loss across the ADSL frequency range so might deal with your problem, I do know it can cope with highly inductive loads so it ought to cope with your motor's switch-on surge.
-
Hopefully b*cat is out of range of senior management's projectiles whilst up the top of this tree, so I'll make the suggestion that the motor should be replaced with an alternator and that the power so generated by usage of the treadmill be sold back to the National Grid!
A win-win solution, maybe? :D
-
I did consider suggesting shed, wife, treadmill, generator in no particular order but I suspect it may not be a viable solution :P
-
I did consider suggesting shed, wife, treadmill, generator in no particular order but I suspect it may not be a viable solution :P
The thought had crossed my mind ;)
-
Thanks for the info Rizla 8)
I'll consider the options you have highlighted. I wouldn't mind spending the £43 if it would resolve the problem but it seems to be an unknown.
Appreciate all the help so far.
I might take the top of the treadmill when I get a chance and have a look at the motor and Pcb and maybe post back with some more info if its useful.
-
Maplin will give you a refund if it doesn't do what you want. They charge extortionate prices but you won't have any problems at all getting money back. I've never sent anything back on the web side of their business but the shops will refund without any problems.
The filter in that extension cable will cover the frequency range that ADSL is in with a minimum 35dB insertion loss which I think should deal with your problem assuming its conducted interference (which is likely).
Having said that there must be something similar available a lot cheaper - I know I only paid £20 in 2007 or so, £40+ is taking the proverbial TBH for a simple mains filter + earth choke.
-
Thanks again Rizla :)
What do make of this I just happened to come across....... :hmm:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TREADMILL-MAINS-POWER-LEAD-ROGER-BLACK-RFI-EMI-FILTER-/271054829490
I came across it whilst trying to find a cheaper alternative to the Maplin link you posted.
I presume having the router plugged into my Belkin Gold which has "EMI/RFI noise up to 75 dB reduction" is having no effect, and you are suggesting that instead I need to have the treadmill plugged into this kind of device to prevent the interference from getting out as opposed to plugging my router into it and hoping it will prevent the interference from getting it?
-
Ah ha 8)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000PS5700/?tag=hydra0b-21&hvadid=9550947189&ref=asc_df_B000PS5700
-
Ah ha 8)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000PS5700/?tag=hydra0b-21&hvadid=9550947189&ref=asc_df_B000PS5700
This does work really well for my (audiophile) hifi. Couldn't really comment on treadmills! ;D
-
Thanks again Rizla :)
What do make of this I just happened to come across....... :hmm:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TREADMILL-MAINS-POWER-LEAD-ROGER-BLACK-RFI-EMI-FILTER-/271054829490
I came across it whilst trying to find a cheaper alternative to the Maplin link you posted.
I presume having the router plugged into my Belkin Gold which has "EMI/RFI noise up to 75 dB reduction" is having no effect, and you are suggesting that instead I need to have the treadmill plugged into this kind of device to prevent the interference from getting out as opposed to plugging my router into it and hoping it will prevent the interference from getting it?
That's just a mains cable with a ferrite around it - it'll be no use at all for your problem.
I thought Roseway explained earlier that there's not a lot of point in trying to filter the router supply - once the interference from the treadmill is conducted onto the mains ring then it'll radiate from that point and you'll be chasing your backside around trying to suppress the noise, which is now being induced (and re-radiated) into adjacent mains rings and other wiring in the house such as ethernet/phone/alarm etc.
Best just to filter the noise source so the noise doesn't get onto a mains ring in the first place.
-
Ah ha 8)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000PS5700/?tag=hydra0b-21&hvadid=9550947189&ref=asc_df_B000PS5700
Same one as mine but cheaper. I'd get it from a local Maplin shop to check whether it suppresses the treadmill noise, if it does then order from the Amazon link and return the £43 one to Maplin once you've tested the one in the Amazon link ;)
http://www.direct-sales-online.com/tacima-cs929c-bp-mains-conditioner-6-way-surge-protected-rfi-filter is the same thing but slightly cheaper again. No idea what the retailer is like, never used them.
-
Thanks again Rizla,
I will report back with my findings once I have a chance to test it (pay day not until next week!)
:)
-
Did you ever resolve this?
-
Did you ever resolve this?
Should find out tomorrow hopefully if the mains conditioner has any effect. I have bought it, just waiting for the treadmill to see some action which will be tomorrow all being well.
As I said before I will post back with my findings if nothing else for the benefit of others.
:)
-
Well..........
I'm going to continue testing for the rest of the week to ensure my initial findings are accurate but........
It worked. Bought a Tacima 6 way mains conditioner (the one that won 5* What HiFi awards) plugged it in and the wife used the readmill as usual and for the first time no internet dropout.
I cleared the logs on the router beforehand, rebooted the router then checked the router tonight when I came home from work tonight and it hasn't dropped.
Like I say the treadmill will be in use for the rest of the week so a weeks good testing should confirm if I have actually managed to fix this annoying issue.
I will again report back at the end of the week with hopefully more good news.
:)
-
Nice one. I was pretty certain it'd do the job but there's always the thought "What if its radiated noise rather than conducted?"
Good result if it stays the same :)
-
Yes, good result and worth remembering. I might get one of those devices myself, just to keep for possible future use. (I'm not planning on getting a treadmill though :) )
-
" there's always the thought "What if its radiated noise rather than conducted? "
Being pedantic, a filter on the interfering device power input will stop both conducted- AND radiated interference since any radiation would be predominantly from the power lines. I suspect there was a bit of both. Anyway it is good to hear of a cure. Possibly some filters are aimed at M & LW radio so don't do as much good for ADSL below say 150 kHz.
-
What might be useful is an in-line filter, not an extension block but just an adaptor that goes between plug and socket.
This is just me musing over how hard it'd be to filter mains wall sockets - given the varying depths of back box/walls/plaster(board)/etc I'm not convinced that it'd be simple, so the thought occurs that an adaptor in between plug and wall socket might be a better solution. Give it massive insertion loss (70dB+) from 10kHz to 50MHz and it would cover all ADSL/VDSL frequency bands.
If FTTC self-install happens then I can see a fair bit of work along these lines for enterprising sorts and having a filter to quickly eliminate/indentify conducted noise problems would be handy to say the least.
Of course it would kill powerline networking stone-dead but that's no bad thing - I can see them causing widespread issues on the higher bit-rate (17a/30a) VDSL2 offerings sooner or later anyway.
Hmm something to think about now summer has arrived and its raining again :D
-
" there's always the thought "What if its radiated noise rather than conducted? "
Being pedantic, a filter on the interfering device power input will stop both conducted- AND radiated interference since any radiation would be predominantly from the power lines. I suspect there was a bit of both. Anyway it is good to hear of a cure. Possibly some filters are aimed at M & LW radio so don't do as much good for ADSL below say 150 kHz.
It wouldn't if the interference was a wide-band spike when the motor starts-up - that was the worry, that the motor had inadequate/faulty noise-suppression caps more than anything else. Were there no motor/highly inductive load involved I'd have been more confident of the fix.
Always assuming that it IS fixed, we may be patting ourselves on the back a little prematurely :D
-
Well after a week of testing......not a single dropout whilst using the treadmill. :drink:
Thank you so much to all of you for helping me with this issue.
I share the comments of Rizla in the something to substitute the extension block would be a good idea in the long run since I now have a very good mains conditioner with a 6 way extension block with a treadmill and a fan plugged into it.
If my Yahama amp see's that i'm sure it'll give up working in protest!!! :D
At least if the treadmill ever dies and I can talk the missus into using an exercise bike instead then the Mains conditioner will make it to my HiFi Tv setup ;D
Thanks again.
:thumbs:
-
That sounds like a great result. :thumbs:
-
" there's always the thought "What if its radiated noise rather than conducted? "
Being pedantic, a filter on the interfering device power input will stop both conducted- AND radiated interference since any radiation would be predominantly from the power lines. I suspect there was a bit of both. Anyway it is good to hear of a cure. Possibly some filters are aimed at M & LW radio so don't do as much good for ADSL below say 150 kHz.
It wouldn't if the interference was a wide-band spike when the motor starts-up - that was the worry, that the motor had inadequate/faulty noise-suppression caps more than anything else. Were there no motor/highly inductive load involved I'd have been more confident of the fix.
:D
Please can you clarify I think you are saying that a wideband spike has strong components below about 150 kHz so a radio filter isn't ideal ? I agree, although it should help above that frequency where the Broadband components are weaker and so more open to be interfered with. Spikes or pulses can have a very wide spectrum; I recal one device which caused serious TV interference at c 50 MHz and was detectable 200 !
Anyway good to hear of a sucessful result.
-
Just to further reconfirm I had not had a single drop out since attaching the mains conditioner.
Thanks again all.
:drink: