Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Black Sheep on April 10, 2013, 03:52:05 PM
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Well, after what seems an eternity installing FTTC for others, I've finally got the order in place for me, me, me !!! Now, did somebody mention graphing scripts and chipped modems ??? ;)
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It might have been mentioned, in passing, but you'd have to upgrade to M$ Windows or Linux (at a pinch) instead of that weird Mac thing you have fallen in love with to see the 'secrets' graphically :lol:
If only we knew someone who had access to an unlocked HG612 & a JDSU at the same time..................
I hope you get a decent engineer on install day.
There are quite a few of them about, you know.
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Well, after what seems an eternity installing FTTC for others, I've finally got the order in place for me, me, me !!! Now, did somebody mention graphing scripts and chipped modems ??? ;)
:clap2: :dance: :congrats:
Let's just hope they bring you the 'right' modem for your cabinet, don't disturb your D-side while they're at it, or get the frames remapping on the MDF wrong, then! :lol:
If you're really lucky, it might even be a PCP-connect-only job!!!! ::)
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Ha ha, cheers guys. I can't quite put my finger on it, but feel an air of sarcasm within the posts ?. He he he. :lol:
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Ha ha, cheers guys. I can't quite put my finger on it, but feel an air of sarcasm within the posts ?. He he he. :lol:
Not unless you've left to join one of the contractors! ;)
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Congrats, Black_Sheep! Nice to benefit at last from all the hard work going on at Openreach!
cheers, a
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YAY!
Hoping all goes well for you on the day :thumbs:
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Thanks Asbo/Kitz.
I have a cunning plan that, if it comes off correctly, I will find out my job number of the VDSL installation, and try and get the actual task 'Pinned' to myself to do the work. That way, I can coerce myself into moving the master socket to where it needs to be, by way of a bacon butty and a brew !!
I may even tip myself a tenner at the end, and spend it on a couple of pints ??!!
If I don't get the required speeds though, I'll be straight on to Walter and the B4RN lads !! ;) ;D ;D
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As you have mentioned it, what are the estimated speeds & how long do you have to wait?
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Many congrats BS,
Might I hazard a guess that, as you are one of the best trained folk in the black art of VDSL installations, you could even be persuaded to apply a JDSU as part of the process ?
Kind regards,
Walter
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As you have mentioned it, what are the estimated speeds & how long do you have to wait?
Not rubbing it in here, but as we get the service free, we have to fill out an 'Employee Broadband' form in order that the job can be progressed. I've only just done this today as my Cab has only just been commissioned. So, long and short of it BE, I haven't got anything back at all yet, no date and no estimated speed. I don't even know if they put us on the 40 or the 80 Meg product ?? Rest assured, like my love affair with the I-Mac, all will be kept informed of the progress and results .............. whether they want to know or not !! He he .... ;D
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Many congrats BS,
Might I hazard a guess that, as you are one of the best trained folk in the black art of VDSL installations, you could even be persuaded to apply a JDSU as part of the process ?
Kind regards,
Walter
Kind words sir, and undeserving I'm sure. :-[ :-[
However, the JDSU will be utilised to within an inch of it's life during my installation, if I manage to get the actual task ?!. Our 'Control' are not supposed to manually allocate work as the 'Machine' is supposed to auto-allocate in the interest of fairness, but mainly to ensure EU appointments are maximised. However, I'm going to plead insanity and demand they give me the job !!! ;D
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This is the second item of good / interesting news that I have read today. :)
If only the Sheep's pen was located in BSE I would plod around there, as fast as my paws would allow, to examine the situation and offer words of advice to the EU. ::)
It's just a pity that the service will be from Beattie Retail and not some other CP. :-X
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As I receive the service on a gratis basis, the service provider could be 'Liblabcon telecom' for all I care, B*Cat. Hopefully, the engineer will make sure the MPF is as good as it can possibly get ??!! ;D ;D
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There again, you might get an 'only just trained' numpty from, say, M J Quinn . . . :-X
When the provision of an FTTC / VDSL2 service becomes a 'wires only' installation, then I might just consider it. :-\ (Personally, I would prefer a modest symmetrical service with a maximum sync speed of 6/6 Mbps DS/US.)
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Personally I fear for when it goes self install as both times I went with a none-BT network ISP on self install, things have ended badly. The last time was VDSL on the Digital Region network.
I was left without a phone line for five days as the documentation the engineer was given telling him where my D side was in the cabinet, was wrong. Then when I complained that my line was dead to my ISP, they were unable to get Openreach to accept there was a problem on their end, instead claiming "the problem must be in the Digital Region cabinet".
Despite the fact at least two Digital Region engineers came out at different times on the activation day to confirm everything was fine their side, nothing happened. It was only thanks to my ISP calling my land line number that they found out the next day that my E side was now connected to someone else. I called my land line and talked to the person who it was connected in order to fill them in on what happened.
Three days with no phone line and I get a call from the person who had my line crossed with theirs, TalkTalk had arranged an engineer and "fixed" their line. No surprise, mine was still dead, thanks Openreach.
Come Monday when I FINALLY got an engineer actually come to my house (it seems I was lucky, they sent a voice engineer) I told him the saga and he stuck a tone generator on my D side so he could figure out what went wrong. What really had me flabbergasted was that the engineer who had "fixed" the other persons line had left my E side loose in the cabinet as obviously his job did not include fixing my line. I think that says all you need to know really about how stupidly inefficient and just plain mental the job allocation system is at Openreach. You would think knowing that was an active E side the job would include figuring out where it came from and putting it back where it belongs.
It just really annoyed me because THEY at least had the use of a phone line for calls AND reported the fault at least a day later than me. Yet I was left with no line and theirs got repaired first. Where is the logic there? Surely a dead line is a higher priority than a crossed line, but it seems where I went wrong was it being raised by my ISP rather than my telco. But I was afraid to raise it as a voice fault in case that in turn ended up with my broadband being disconnected to "repair" the voice line and having to get ANOTHER engineer to fix that, who might again break the E side if the documentation hadn't been updated.
Had this been an engineer install however, none of this would have happened as they would have checked my line was working before leaving. (sorry for the long post, I wanted to link to this story but I cannot find where I originally posted it and wanted to make clear why I dislike self install)
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The 'Self install' that is definitely being introduced, is only an option for the EU. The other being a 'Managed Install' option, whereby the engineer will still attend site. As the old saying goes, 'You gets what you pays for'. ;D
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There again, you might get an 'only just trained' numpty from, say, M J Quinn . . . :-X
BS should claim tuition fees in that case, :D
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There again, you might get an 'only just trained' numpty from, say, M J Quinn . . . :-X
BS should claim tuition fees in that case, :D
:-[ :-[ There are lots of good engineers out there. Unfortunately, in the contracting game, money talks, and as I stated above ............... you gets what you pays for. Thanks renluop for your comment. :)
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@ BS,
Given the case that some, but not all, lines are of sub-optimum quality and could be improved, I hope that a self install will allow the EU to observe the full modem stats in an unlocked modem. If not, then the managed install must include a requirement to test the line with an appropriate test instrument, whether or not subcontractors are being used. How we achieve that requirement is another matter entirely - something about shooting the messenger comes to mind !
Assuming that a self-install does detect an anomaly, I trust there will be an option to initiate a SFI with a cost to the EU only if a NFF is agreed.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Was my theory wrong then: I couldn't work out why BT bothered almost a couple of years ago with FTTC to my village, it couldn't be anything to do with the 8x uplift from ADSL predicted, and achieved; must have been the presence of OR engineers living in the village was my theory, anyway? Take up is still poor though; we seem to have long memories.
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@ BS,
Given the case that some, but not all, lines are of sub-optimum quality and could be improved, I hope that a self install will allow the EU to observe the full modem stats in an unlocked modem. If not, then the managed install must include a requirement to test the line with an appropriate test instrument, whether or not subcontractors are being used. How we achieve that requirement is another matter entirely - something about shooting the messenger comes to mind !
Assuming that a self-install does detect an anomaly, I trust there will be an option to initiate a SFI with a cost to the EU only if a NFF is agreed.
Kind regards,
Walter
The communique we received was that ISP's were in the process of bringing their very own combined modem/router to market, thus negating the need for unlocked modems. The stats, I'm guessing, would be then viewable by the EU on a self-install ?? the only part Openreach would play is in the cabinet connections.
I agree with you (always have), that ALL 'Managed Installs' should carry the full basket of tests. Especially as it would be a greater premium than the self-install. We will see how that progresses ??
Regarding the 'Fault found' anomaly ?? Again it's purely my thoughts, but it surely has to be business as usual on that front ??
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Was my theory wrong then: I couldn't work out why BT bothered almost a couple of years ago with FTTC to my village, it couldn't be anything to do with the 8x uplift from ADSL predicted, and achieved; must have been the presence of OR engineers living in the village was my theory, anyway? Take up is still poor though; we seem to have long memories.
Sorry smurf ??I don't quite understand your post ?? Are you saying 'they' predicted there would be a pick-up of 8 times the ADSL customers, on VDSL ?? You then say it was achieved anyway ?? What the 'long memories' bit is about has me totally baffled, I'm afraid ??? :)
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@ BS & Smurf,
Re FTTC demand and take-up.
I don't think it's rocket science to suggest there are two major markets; then plus all the exceptions such as the "Not a chance brigade" being valiantly solved e.g. by B4RN at significantly higher symmetric rates and at a far faster pace than anybody else could do. There are a few other small commercial fibre players such as e.g. Gigaclear too.
But back to the main two:-
1. Where BT is playing catch up to Virgin Media due to the laws of coaxial and twisted pair cabling physics for the actual infrastructure. Those that have been using VM for years are hardly likely to gallop in droves towards a solution which is almost bound to be inferior and less reliable (disregarding contention which in most cases should be a relatively simple matter to upgrade at least up to current limits). BT Wholesale etc. are probably left with the transfer a fraction of their existing ADSL clients which I believe is the reason for the relatively low uptake figures published, as they have had to concentrate on these VM areas.
2. Where BT have a monopoly in lower density small urban and rural areas take up is bound to be much higher as it's hobsons choice, even if the result is quite appalling e.g. many with sub 10 Mbps on VDSL. (These speed-poverty-stricken folk might actually be far better off just taking advantage of the shorter D-side distances BUT ONLY IF the incumbent had the common sense to implement a dual ADSL & VDSL solution.) In our Ewhurst case, given we had whipped up enthusiasm and had designed a solution with capacity for EVERY line to obtain ADSL / VDSL solutions, interest was always going to be much higher. Along comes the "Concrete-crushing behemoth" who destroys our project and in their gross stupidity just puts 3 + 1** all of the smallest capacity FTTCs and then ONLY installs single ducts throughout. Surprise surprise the two largest FTTCs have run out of capacity within 3 months of installation and one of them is already planned for remedial works to dig up the pavement yet again. (One reason for the very rapid take up is I had warned everybody of the significant shortfall. Another reason is that those who had jumped first retained their broadband when most of the rest lost their entire services due to cable theft. The others saw what they were missing, ignoring the fact that the fibre cables use the same ducts but the thieves this time left them undamaged.) ** The fourth cabinet is utterly useless for Ewhurst as the D side cable involved is too long and in too poor a condition to provide any VDSL service at all.
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@ BS & Smurf,
Re FTTC demand and take-up.
I don't think it's rocket science to suggest there are two major markets; then plus all the exceptions such as the "Not a chance brigade" being valiantly solved e.g. by B4RN at significantly higher symmetric rates and at a far faster pace than anybody else could do. There are a few other small commercial fibre players such as e.g. Gigaclear too.
But back to the main two:-
1. Where BT is playing catch up to Virgin Media due to the laws of coaxial and twisted pair cabling physics for the actual infrastructure. Those that have been using VM for years are hardly likely to gallop in droves towards a solution which is almost bound to be inferior and less reliable (disregarding contention which in most cases should be a relatively simple matter to upgrade at least up to current limits). BT Wholesale etc. are probably left with the transfer a fraction of their existing ADSL clients which I believe is the reason for the relatively low uptake figures published, as they have had to concentrate on these VM areas.
2. Where BT have a monopoly in lower density small urban and rural areas take up is bound to be much higher as it's hobsons choice, even if the result is quite appalling e.g. many with sub 10 Mbps on VDSL. (These speed-poverty-stricken folk might actually be far better off just taking advantage of the shorter D-side distances BUT ONLY IF the incumbent had the common sense to implement a dual ADSL & VDSL solution.) In our Ewhurst case, given we had whipped up enthusiasm and had designed a solution with capacity for EVERY line to obtain ADSL / VDSL solutions, interest was always going to be much higher. Along comes the "Concrete-crushing behemoth" who destroys our project and in their gross stupidity just puts 3 + 1** all of the smallest capacity FTTCs and then ONLY installs single ducts throughout. Surprise surprise the two largest FTTCs have run out of capacity within 3 months of installation and one of them is already planned for remedial works to dig up the pavement yet again. (One reason for the very rapid take up is I had warned everybody of the significant shortfall. Another reason is that those who had jumped first retained their broadband when most of the rest lost their entire services due to cable theft. The others saw what they were missing, ignoring the fact that the fibre cables use the same ducts but the thieves this time left them undamaged.) ** The fourth cabinet is utterly useless for Ewhurst as the D side cable involved is too long and in too poor a condition to provide any VDSL service at all.
1) VM's extremely limited-reach network (Originally NYNEX), has only been around circa 15 years (approx.). Great if you live on a council estate, not so good if you are a suburb-dweller. BT's infrastructure, which is all-reaching, has been around far, far longer. The 'Relatively simple matter' of enhancing their backhaul services, has still to this date, not been achieved, hence VM's 'average' EU speeds being far lower than BT's Infinity EU's. I can't put my finger on it straightaway, but there are numerous internal comms sent to us, stating that the take-up of Openreach's Infinity services is better than expected.
2) If I 've said this once, I've said it a thousand times ........ BT are a shareholding company (Go tell Maggie .... oops, you can't now). As such, they are a profit-making industry, therefore if the balance sheet quite clearly states it is not commercially viable to throw money at 'Lovely View Village', then they wont. When I say they wont, I mean as the sole investor. BT have said they will work with partners prepared to invest, and shoulder some of the cash burden, but they will not run at a loss. They can't. Just like any other business really. There is no way on God's earth they have the resources or budgets, to 'plan' jobs as finitely as you mention, Walter.
I know you have a particular dis-like of the giant that is BT. But there are a heck of a lot of satisfied EU's out there, I see them daily. ;) ;D ;D
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@ BS
I think they've been down here a bit longer and do cover most, but certainly not all, of the major conurbations. I agree there's no way they will ever provide coax everywhere. In fact were they to start that route, and I don't believe there's any intention of so doing, logic says it would be a brand new network and common sense says it would be fibre. The fact that they have a single coax using address techniques rather than individual twisted pairs, and that their joint pods mean most of the coax isn't disturbed at all, probably give them a reliability advantage too. Where they are, the line distance doesn't seem to affect them so much, but they aren't trying to run probably more than about a km before they provide another active cabinet. I do know at one stage they increased the transmit power and then added attenuators for the closer EUs. If they ever want to upgrade their network, again it would be fibre in their existing ductwork.
Kind regards,
Walter
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I do so hope that install day will have the required bacon butties - who ever the installer may be :D
I also hope that if it cant be specially -cough- allocated, then you are there to oversee the process?
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Oops sorry Black Sheep, too much of a "Quick Reply". The 8x uplift predicted was on speeds, and I've no criticism of BT locally.
I'm just baffled that take up after 18 months on FTTC is so poor, still only 2 out of 18 dwellings in the street, both activated in the first month, and was similar in other streets within the village that I checked on Ofcom's postcode data. I was just surmising that perhaps part of the reason is that BT's network had a poor reputation, well locally, in the distant past and people have long memories. More importantly I still think most people don't feel the need for more than the 3.5Mbps they can get locally on ADSL. I know that I hesitated for 12 months before taking up ADSL originally, as it followed a couple of years in which my voice phone line had an intermittent fault which left it out of action 25% of the time despite all BT's many efforts to solve it. In the ten years since I've so far had no faults on the local loop that I'm aware of at all, so all the efforts were worthwhile, but at the time it drove me nuts. (And I wasn't alone).
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Thanks smurf, that has my full understanding now. ;D
I am in total agreement with you regarding the 'need for speed'. If VDSL wasn't free for employees, there's no way I'd be shelling out for it, as 9Meg is fine for what me and the missus want. I think therein lies one of the reasons for perceived low take-up.
I genuinely don't think EU's (Generally) wont have VDSL, because of some line fault they may have had months/years ago. TBH, Mr Average has no idea what the term 'Line plant' means or even is !! They aren't interested in the intracacies of AC Balance, Leg Resistance, capacitance, SNR ............ a heck of a lot don't even know what there speed is. They just want a stable connection and one that is quick enough for what the use it for.
Also, I find a lot of EU's are unaware that VDSL even exists on their Cabinet. Some EU's get cold called to inform them it is, others don't. I even had what is termed a 'High profile celeb' (Coronation St actor), that lives out in the sticks who wasn't aware until I told him. He wouldn't have got massive speeds, but a damn site better than he was getting on ADSL.
All in all, I was at a meeting today that informed us that our flagship product (FTTC/P) is ahead of schedule by some margin, and take up is more than predicted. There's a video I'm supposed to watch about it, but won't be doing.
Anyhows, cheers for the clarification of the post, and take it from me, BT as a whole are not this big bad wolf that some would have you believe. Since privitisation, they have to act as a profit-making business, and some scenario's simply won't fit that description. I see the mistakes they make, and where budget cuts play their part, but look at UK Ltd, the whole country's running at a deficit. But, they DO put the EU above anything else ( barring safety), as they are our bread and butter at the end of the day. The general public won't ever see this side of BT, but believe me it is our main focus.
Add to that all the charitable work BT do and fork out to (Lets not go down the tax relief route, please), and they're not allllllll bad. ;D
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In BTs defence, yes there are worse CPs... tbh i think i'd rather be with BT than say Sky. I think a lot of their bad rep re adsl comes from their Indian call centre :(
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Yes, Frank, Bob and Alan (aka Amit, Pranav and Samir), are just 3 of the total off-shore advisors that I personally get poor feedback about, regarding BT.
They are well-educated, very polite, and well-versed in the English language. Although able to speak our language, it's often extremely hard to understand what it is they're actually saying ?? Add 'crib-sheet' faulting techniques into the mix, along with a plethora of, "I'm sorry, I didn't understand that, can you say it again ?", and you have an angry EU at the end of the conversation.
Stating there's nothing wrong with the line, and that "It's your fault and you will be charged heavily if you have an engineering visit", also fuels the already smouldering fire.
I'd much rather we had CC Advisors from wrong side of th'hill (Yaaaaarkshire), than our colleagues off-shore. ;) ;D
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Selling VDSL to your average broadband customer was always going to be tricky.
For starters, DSL has this reputation of not delivering what is promised, which unfortunately due to the nature of the technology is partly true. This of course is why its being sold as "fibre" broadband, sneakily hiding the VDSL aspect entirely, to try and convince people its better than what they are used to.
But there are a lot of people who treat it like they do voting "Why bother, they are all the same!". They are wrong of course, but they are the kind of people its VERY hard to convince otherwise.
I do not think "what I have now is good enough for me" is quite as prevalent as people think either. I think the problem again is that people are used to YouTube stalling, gaming being crap (so much so games are written to perform WORSE on low latency connections now, how stupid), things just generally loading like sludge and they "think" that is normal and they can't get any better than that.
Its not helped by BT Retail either, with these silly adverts proclaiming the HomeHub as the second-coming of christ. No BT, the HomeHub isn't going to allow 10 students to Skype chat to their boyfriends simultaneously over WiFi, even on VDSL I doubt WiFi is up to the task there as the overheads of so many devices at the same time will be shocking. I'm not aware of any techie who would be caught dead using a HomeHub, because they really aren't all that good. What they SHOULD be pushing is that the broadband itself allows these things, but no its all about the HomeHub. So when someone buys the product and can't even get the WiFi for a single device to do full speed, its not going to make them feel like promoting the service to their friends.
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There is little doubt that a major culture change is required which probably won't happen before Openreach is segregated entirely. Here is a typical (edited) example of the convoluted processes a knowledgeable EU is obliged to follow just to get an acknowledged phone line fault repaired, as there is no direct communication possible from the fault reporting web page. The fundamental problem India hasn't understood is that BT Openreach do not maintain the web page describing what they are doing. It is acknowledged that fault finding on the ageing PSTN is a complex matter but just fobbing the EU off with silence and doing nothing to repair the fault is quite unacceptable.
Sneha Udayakumar: Hello. I'm Sneha Udayakumar. Thanks for that information, I'll check it and get back to you in a moment.
(A screen shot of the fault report web page was sent to India. EU’s phone fault 09-15 14Apr2013 A/c No.tiff)
File attachment upload has started.
The file EU-s phone fault 09-15 14Apr2013 TH1009xxxx.tiff (180.26KB) was received.
Sneha Udayakumar: I am sorry that the line is still not working
Sneha Udayakumar: Just give me a moment let me check that for you
EU: Hello Sneha, Can you please expedite the repair.
Sneha Udayakumar: ya sure just give me a moment please
Sneha Udayakumar: I am checking the tracker now to see the process of the fault
EU: Thank you
Sneha Udayakumar: I could see that the fault was supposed to be fixed by the 10.04.2013 right ?
Sneha Udayakumar: I can see no updates written on the tracker let me quickly call the open reach to make it quicker for you
EU: Yes BT are supposed to fix faults within 3 working days of the first report and clearly this particular fault is long overdue. I have not been told what BT are doing about the fault either. Thanks for calling the open reach too.
Sneha Udayakumar: The open reach told that because of the busy schedule they could not assign an engineer they have assigned the engineer now and told hopefully the line would be working by the end of tomorrow
Sneha Udayakumar: I am extremely sorry that they had not kept you informed about it
Sneha Udayakumar: They also apologised for the same
EU: Thank you. Given the state of the network locally perhaps BT should have more engineers ?
Sneha Udayakumar: Yes i completely agree with that
EU: Thank you for trying on my behalf. I hope that BT will not require further reminders on this and similar problems.
Sneha Udayakumar: as there had been such a long delay i will make sure you will be compensated for this
EU: Anyway thank you for trying., Good bye.
Sneha Udayakumar: Definitely not i have also activated message service from my end so that you get the updates
Sneha Udayakumar: Thanks for contacting us on chat, to disconnect, click on the 'disconnect' button in the top right of the chat window & close. Good bye
Sneha Udayakumar: Have a great day !!!
EU: Good bye and you too please enjoy the rest of your evening.
Sneha Udayakumar has disconnected.
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Up and running ....... ;) ;D
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
.... but is that it?
come on tell us about the install... or was it done by yours truly ;)
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Fraid so ........... even I can't move the PCP nearer to my premises !! ;D ;D
Yeah, I prepped everything so that the engineer with the task only had to perform the PCP work. I didn't even stay at home as I'm very, very busy sorting other stuff out atm. I've gone from 8Meg DS throughput to approx. 43Meg DS, all gratis. If I appear happy, it's because I am. Mwaaaaaaaaahhh. :P ;D ;D ;) ;D ;D
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>>> I didn't even stay at home
tsk tsk.. so who provided the bacon butties then ;D
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To me and my wife ?? A local greasy spoon that do excellent bacon and egg butties. Alas, for my brother-in-arms ...... nobody. :no: :-[ ;D
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Well Im chuffed for you Mr_BS :)
You are excused from service this evening whilst you play with your new speeds :thumbs:
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He he he ................ too tired tbh. Large glass of vino and beddy-bye's for this hombre. Cheers, Kitz. ;D
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Up and running ....... ;) ;D
Weyhey. Finally, you have become one of us instead of one of them :clap:
One one hand, I sincerely hope you enjoy a long and happy relationship with your connection.
On the other, how cool would it be if you had lots of problems, diagnosed & fixed them & advised us other EUs specifically what to mention to a visiting engineer whenever we experience similar problems ;) ;)
I also have to ask, what's the distance to the cabinet?
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Up and running ....... ;) ;D
Weyhey. Finally, you have become one of us instead of one of them :clap:
One one hand, I sincerely hope you enjoy a long and happy relationship with your connection.
On the other, how cool would it be if you had lots of problems, diagnosed & fixed them & advised us other EUs specifically what to mention to a visiting engineer whenever we experience similar problems ;) ;)
I also have to ask, what's the distance to the cabinet?
Ha ha, I know where you are coming from, BE. I feel like landed gentry or something. ADSL creatures are way beneath us. :lol:
LOL at your other comment about me ending up with lots of problems. I will answer your questions later, am hands-full atm and need to find time to get my JDSU connected to my circuit and possibly take some screen shots ?? I can tell you though, I removed my NTE2000 frontplate about 4 months ago, and left the house wiring with the NTE5 upstairs in my 'den', and all internal extentions fed from the normal front-plate, thus using dongle MF's at each socket. The 'Eclipse' test result that my mate (the engineer) performed, which gives the up and down synch speeds, and the line quality indicator, showed a 'Bridged tap'.
Now, I know for fact there isn't a 'bridged tap' by way of star-wiring. So, my point is, that when self-install comes onto the market, there's a good chance that 'Bridged tap' may be a common fault report, driven by the DLM aggressively altering the speeds based on this 'false' result ?? Just thinking out loud really, and am tempted to leave my circuit as it is for a week or two to see what happens, before I fit the VDSL frontplate ??
I'll give you the exact distance to Cab when I get my Jeddy on the line, Paul. Time is my enemy as I say. :)
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Help !! I'm trying to paste up some JDSU screen shots, but the JPEG images are showing as roughly 1.9Meg each in size ??!! As 200Kb is the maximum, how can I achieve this ?? Idiots guide please ?? ;D
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Test
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Wey hey !!! Get in there my san !!! Self-taught resizing king that I now am !! :-)
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More
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Apologies for the pics being distributed haphazardly.
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Well done BS. What's the 15db nm about though?
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Hi BS,
Thanks for those JDSU pictures.
I expect you are very pleased with your connection's sync speed compared to ADSL's bump and grind !
It would be interesting to see what figures a BT speed test now produces.
I'm often trying to improve VDSL services but your drop of nearly 26 Mbps from the max figure on a line length of 600 m does seem rather large ?
Note though that I don't have a clue as to whether the JDSU figures are the same as those obtained directly from a Huawei modem ?
(I have observed much poorer figures on an ADSL2 line from a JDSU when compared to those in a 2700 HGV modem.)
Anyway the very best of good luck with your new-found emancipation !
Kind regards,
Walter
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I understand that a JDSU HST-3000 presents a lower impedance to the line being tested when compared with that of a Huawei HG6xx device. Hence the heavier loading results in lower values being recorded. :)
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Note though that I don't have a clue as to whether the JDSU figures are the same as those obtained directly from a Huawei modem ?
I'm sure that BS couldn't possibly personally condone such a suggestion, but it might be rather interesting at some stage to be able to compare the equivalent stats as obtained via both a JDSU & an unlocked HG612 on the same connection ;)
These would be particularly interesting, along with Bitloading, SNR, QLN & Hlog across all the DS & US tones:-
xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 4833 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21216 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 4859 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20764 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 4833 kbps 21216 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 6.2 dBm 12.1 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 8.1 54.0 N/A N/A 21.9 64.1 0.1
Signal Attenuation(dB): 8.1 53.3 N/A N/A 21.9 64.1 N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.1 6.1 N/A N/A 6.3 6.4 N/A
TX Power(dBm): -4.6 5.9 N/A N/A 11.3 4.4 N/A
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 4833 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21216 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 4859 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20764 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 6.1
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.1 6.2
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 239 143
M: 1 1
T: 59 37
R: 0 12
S: 0.3676 0.9391
L: 5223 1329
D: 1 1
I: 240 78
N: 240 156
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 22657180 678610
OHFErr: 9496 30
RS: 0 1290471
RSCorr: 0 70
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Path 0
HEC: 13633 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 622081142 0
Data Cells: 22109187 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 2665 55
SES: 63 0
UAS: 135 135
AS: 123335
Path 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 5.42 8.68
delay: 0.00 0.00
OR: 47.21 29.47
Bitswap: 23820 2480
Total time = 1 days 22 hours 16 min 20 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 18390 0
ES: 2665 55
SES: 63 0
UAS: 135 135
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 5 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 20 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 3 0
ES: 3 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 213 0
ES: 22 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 22 hours 16 min 20 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 7034 0
ES: 885 12
SES: 24 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 6235 0
ES: 965 24
SES: 25 0
UAS: 21 21
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Since Link time = 1 days 10 hours 15 min 33 sec
FEC: 0 70
CRC: 9496 30
ES: 1383 26
SES: 33 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
We know it can be very easily done via a Windows PC, but as a Mac user, are you able to confirm that all that lot (including the Bitloading, SNR, QLN & Hlog data) can be very easily obtained via Telnet (or whatever program Macs may use) & stored as a plain text file for subsequent examination/graphing via my programs?
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Well done BS. What's the 15db nm about though?
Ha ha, cheers Kitz. The increased dB is due to a 'Bridged Tap', where the hell that 'tap' is, is anybody's guess as I assumed it was due to my previous dongle-filtered installation. Further tests show this is not the case ?? I'll be visiting my PCP sometime soon !!!
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Hi BS,
Thanks for those JDSU pictures.
I expect you are very pleased with your connection's sync speed compared to ADSL's bump and grind !
It would be interesting to see what figures a BT speed test now produces.
I'm often trying to improve VDSL services but your drop of nearly 26 Mbps from the max figure on a line length of 600 m does seem rather large ?
Note though that I don't have a clue as to whether the JDSU figures are the same as those obtained directly from a Huawei modem ?
(I have observed much poorer figures on an ADSL2 line from a JDSU when compared to those in a 2700 HGV modem.)
Anyway the very best of good luck with your new-found emancipation !
Kind regards,
Walter
Thank you Walter, appreciate your comments. You are, of course, quite right about the large speed drop (see post to Kitz above). Investigations to commence sometime this week, time permitting. ;D
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I understand that a JDSU HST-3000 presents a lower impedance to the line being tested when compared with that of a Huawei HG6xx device. Hence the heavier loading results in lower values being recorded. :)
Hmm ?? Interesting thoughts there B*Cat. My experience with the 'Jeddy' has shown me that it appears to have a larger impedance factor than most modems/routers out there. The one and only router I've come across that has the reverse effect, is SKY's grey-coloured one (not the newer white square one).
I have to admit to being baffled as to why this is ??
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@ BS,
Far be it for an amateur to pervert the course of the highly experienced practioners, but I wonder if an examination with a tone generator of your DP and perhaps the next one up the line might detect the cause of the bridge tap.
The esteemed BKK has affirmed that bridge tap causes are more usually associated with the EU's near end connections.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walt
I live on a new estate with new cabling all the way back to the PCP, and the wiring from the BT66 and beyond doesn't contain any 'Taps'. This really only leaves a potential 'Tap' at the PCP on the Krone strips, as its easily done where the engineer can't see the presence of additional wires on the lower connections.
That said, I attended a multiple-repeat fault on VDSL once, along with another engineer. The GEA result (like mine) kept showing a Bridged Tap. The PQT tests passed with flying colours, and it was only by changing it onto another D-side pair that we got a 'Pass' on the GEA test. Our only conclusion was either a 'Split Pair' or a slight contact fault with a dead pair ?? It was the fact that all the parameters passed perfectly, that you wouldn't normally associate with 'Splits' or 'Dead contacts' ...... ie: AC Balance and 'Capacitance'.
This electrickery is a dark art !! ;) ;D
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Well done BS. What's the 15db nm about though?
Ha ha, cheers Kitz. The increased dB is due to a 'Bridged Tap', where the hell that 'tap' is, is anybody's guess as I assumed it was due to my previous dongle-filtered installation. Further tests show this is not the case ?? I'll be visiting my PCP sometime soon !!!
So the DLM has kicked in and put you on 15dB SNRM? ... which will of course be stripping you of quite a bit of sync speed. :(
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Yup ........... bus-mans holiday time !! ;)
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Just for the record . . .
Was the installation performed by an Openreach employee or a contractor? Assuming a "Yea, nay" response to that split question, the next split question queries whether the installer was a minimalist-trained new recruit (perhaps ex-MOD) or a significantly time-served technician (of the Ezzer / Black Sheep standard)?
Of course we must not assume that the tie-pair connections within the FTTC are perfect. :-\ I guess that you could isolate both sets of tie-pairs within the PCP and then test down each pair to the FTTC, in turn.
It will be interesting to know the exact location when you find the line defect . . .
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For info ......... I was attending to other personal matters the day of the install, so I just plugged the Huawei Modem in (and the link to the Hub), and awaited a mate of mine (26yrs as a BT engineer and more than capable) to perform the Cab work. It was he that informed me it was testing as 'Bridged Tap'.
Sure as eggs are eggs, when I finally had the time available to me, I utilised WHOOSH and the results do show as a 'B Tap'.
Tonight, I've proved that it isn't the wiring at my premises, and have got a damned good 'Spare pair' ready for swopping over to, again, when time allows ?? It's got an AC Balance of 82dB and both legs are showing as -56dB on the crosstalk 'Noise' function (-60dB being perfection). 'Impulse Noise' function didn't even register one single 'Count' after a couple of minutes. Again, indicating a really good pair of wires.
It's slow going but I'll hopefully get there in the end, and will certainly report back my findings. :)
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Perhaps BS can arrange for a "snip & shift" ?
RE testing the tie pairs on a partial fault including the filter cct, that could well produce some strange results, unless BS has a supply of semtex or even borrow a magic FTTC key ? (Pace the Gestapo ! )
Otherwise doing repeat tests on the faulty pair and the next available open pair might yield something ?
I have come across one line fault which was traced to the tie pair but thankfully that only needed the PCP end re-crimping.
Kind regards,
Walter
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If the FTTC in question is of Huawei origin and of the larger style, then the right-hand door of the pair (providing access to the filters and tie-pair connections, etc) can be released with the standard triangular key . . . assuming the central security lock can also be released. It is only the left-hand door (providing access to the DSLAM, PSU and BBU) which requires a "star" key for its release.
Perhaps Black Sheep should kidnap a BT Operate technician and take her/him to the FTTC . . . ;)
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Very, very quick update. New D-side provided, PCP to BT66 and still it tests 'B Tap' on WHOOSH !! Going to change the NTE5 backplate, and also swop the feed pair from the BT66 to NTE onto one of the spares. That is all I can do without having a ligit job raised.
TBH the only thing left is as Mr Cat said, the tie-pairs !!! I'm wondering if a rogue wire has been terminated onto my pair on the Krone/Quante strips ?? Either way, I'll know later as to whether to have a job raised legitimately, or that it has been cured. Cheers guys.
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I'm wondering if a rogue wire has been terminated onto my pair on the Krone/Quante strips ?? Either way, I'll know later as to whether to have a job raised legitimately, or that it has been cured. Cheers guys.
It doesn't seem to be unknown for something like that to happen somewhere in the usual rats nest of wiring.
You may recall this from my very short thread here:-
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9726.msg198301.html#msg198301 ;)
"Anyway, he came back from the cabinet & using words like "absolute stupidity", he explained that he had found that "someone" had "double jumpered" another D-side cable onto the fibre connection that my D-side was connected to, & that was probably the explanation for the broadband disconnections, crackly phone line etc.
He confirmed that he had disconnected the "extra/redundant" cable."
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Hmm, I'm struggling to recall that instance, BE ?? Run the problems you had by me again, if you would ?? ;) :lol:
Another quick update, Everything from the existing PCP right through to my Modem has been checked, or changed. This can only be the tie-pair or the port itself, to my mind ?? I'm not risking entry into the FTTC, so have raised a genuine task in order to sort this out properly.
My only thoughts are, that still the WHOOSH GEA test shows as 'Bridged Tap - fault within EU's wiring/Premises'. Obviously, this is not so, but am wondering how this may cause genuine confusion to others on the test-desks or out in the field ?? That said, I'm not knocking the test system (as it is probably the best I've ever seen in my years at BT), and appreciate it must be difficult to localise a possible fault from a robotic test ??
Hey-ho ...... that's life. :)
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It doesn't seem to be unknown for something like that to happen somewhere in the usual rats nest of wiring.
You may recall this from my very short thread here:-
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9726.msg198301.html#msg198301 ;)
"Anyway, he came back from the cabinet & using words like "absolute stupidity", he explained that he had found that "someone" had "double jumpered" another D-side cable onto the fibre connection that my D-side was connected to, & that was probably the explanation for the broadband disconnections, crackly phone line etc.
He confirmed that he had disconnected the "extra/redundant" cable."
Yes, I remember that well!
Of course the cabinet being referred thereto, above, was the PCP and not the FTTC, as you had the undivided attention of an Openreach, not an Operate, technician. :P
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Another quick update, Everything from the existing PCP right through to my Modem has been checked, or changed. This can only be the tie-pair or the port itself, to my mind ?? I'm not risking entry into the FTTC, so have raised a genuine task in order to sort this out properly.
Hopefully you will be able to raise the task without resorting to :wall: and :comp: . . . the normal techniques needed to be used by ordinary EUs when dealing with Beattie India.
It would be nice if you could be present when the correct entity goes to investigate the FTTC. :)
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Thanks for your concern, B*Cat, but another really brilliant thing BT have implemented for their staff, is a division called 'Actionline'.
I just fill in the necessary details on an e-form, and they do the leg-work so to speak. I've used them umpteen times for all sorts of issues, and have to say they are without doubt the biggest asset employees have for cutting through the quagmire of s**t, Mr Average EU has to contend with.
It will be a bog-standard FTTC Openreach engineer that ends up with the task, hopefully myself if I can track it down ?? If the port or the ties are faulty, then a 'Lift & Shift' will follow, so no need for BT Operate, or a PCR Engineer to attend site just yet. :)
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Aren't you able to grab a Hlog graph via the JDSU?
If it shows anything untoward like a 'V' shape 'before' a lift & shift or whatever it would be interesting to view it again 'after'.
Of course, if you could somehow lay your hands on a spare HG612 & a Windows PC..............................(purely in the name of research).
Example before & after Hlog graphs attached (the bridged tap was inside the EU's on this occasion).
EDIT:
Speeds went from:-
Max: Upstream rate = 7533 Kbps, Downstream rate = 16948 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 2000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13211 Kbps
to
Max: Upstream rate = 7839 Kbps, Downstream rate = 28744 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 7893 Kbps, Downstream rate = 26068 Kbps
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Not wishing to be 'outdone' by an avian entity, I attach a pair of example images that I have retained for occasions such as this. ;)
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Thanks for the Hlog info guys, but I'm afraid I've never seen this function on the JDSU, that's not say it's not in there somewhere ?? ???
I had a slight heart-stopping moment today (slightly exaggerated ;D), whereby I found myself in the Exchange for lunch and decided I'd quickly re-run my jumper directly from the Telephone EN to my Bar/Pair on the MDF, thus disconnecting the old ADSL equipment.
Imagine my joy when I then ran a GEA test and the result came back with a great result, no sign of the 'Bridged Tap'. I performed a 'Recalc', and after 10 mins carried out another GEA test. Imagine my dismay as I witnessed my line in synch at the full 80/20Meg speeds, but the damned 'Bridged Tap' had returned !!!
I'm going to continue monitoring my circuit to see how the DLM behaves. :)
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Actually that's an interesting point.....
User's BB supply from the Dslam gets patched into their line in the PCP cabinet
I assumed it gets patched in where the D and E side cables join together
Surely to the broadband DSLAM in the cabinet the the unused (for BB) E side back to the exchange represents a huge bridged tap to the intended path of the signal down the tie cables and on along down the D side?
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That, indeed, would be the case if the low-pass, high-block filters were not present in the E-side . . .
ASCII art:
Fibre Optic Link
v v v
-------------------------------- DSLAM
/ \
Filter \
---------------/ \---------------
^ ^
E-side copper pair D-side copper pair
b*cat wishes to thank Walter for providing the original photograph from which the following two images have been created.
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@ c6em,
If you count the filter blocks (or have the original photograph !!) you will see there's only 64 thus confirming only the first line card is installed.
The worrying thing we note now is that several have been removed suggesting serious problems for those channels.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Thanks to you both for the reply.
I knew I must have been missing something - like a filter but up to now had never heard of them being mentioned.
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FAO Mr Eagle.
Just screen shots showing functionality for WB 'Crosstalk' (Noise), and WB Impulse Noise (REIN). Not connected to anything so only measuring the distance and make-up of the 1mtr test leads attached to the JDSU.
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FAO Mr Eagle.
Thank you, kind Sir.
Some more interesting snaps for my now extensive album.
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You're welcome. :)
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(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2720497919.png&hash=ad7895ae1ecdc99591fda9d9686013729eed7436) (http://www.speedtest.net)
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That's the way to do it ^^^^^^^^ ;) ;D
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(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2720497919.png&hash=ad7895ae1ecdc99591fda9d9686013729eed7436) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2720561764.png&hash=598d992d2d72cc849d7f001ac770d7ee1fd4db11) (http://www.speedtest.net)
^^^^^Eat your heart out BS^^^^^^ :-[ :blush:
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pmsl ............. I remember those days, Puppy !! A certain Mr Bell was involved, if memory serves ?? :lol:
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(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F2720497919.png&hash=ad7895ae1ecdc99591fda9d9686013729eed7436) (http://www.speedtest.net)
magnificent speeds! You deserve it! What was the cause of the "bridge tap" error message in the end?
cheers, a
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pmsl ............. I remember those days, Puppy !! A certain Mr Bell was involved, if memory serves ?? :lol:
Are you sure in wasn't Adam & Eve! :P
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OK, so does this mean that you think
a) DLM has relented in the face of the 'disappearance' of the 'phantom' bridged tap ?
b) that the old ADSL tie pair was the bridged tap despite the E-side filters?
Think carefully before replying as a lot of people might be very interested in the answer! :lol: ;) :)
BTW My only thoughts are, that still the WHOOSH GEA test shows as 'Bridged Tap - fault within EU's wiring/Premises'. Obviously, this is not so, but am wondering how this may cause genuine confusion to others on the test-desks or out in the field ??
I guess there could be a simpler answer to that question: It is simply the 'interpretation' of the result by whoever programmed the text - on the basis that there are never (obviously) bridged taps on OR's side of the NTE. ;) :lol:
Congrats anyway. Fancy a Ryanair trip to Glasgow? ;D
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That seems a high upload speed for ADSL with a poor dl speed, you sure everything as it should be? Be grateful I was stuck at less than 1 Mbps for years!
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D'ya know Asbo, I haven't got the foggiest ??? The only things left that I hadn't got involved with, was an E-side change, VDSL Port, or VDSL Ties between PCP's.
Each and every time I ran a WHOOSH test, I got the dreaded 'Bridged Tap' result. Only when I removed the ADSL mapping in the Exchange (which in theory shouldn't have any effect), did I get my first ever good WHOOSH result. However, the very next WHOOSH test (approx. 10 mins later), returned a 'Bridged Tap' fault yet again.
Sod it, I thought, and did a 'recalc' of my circuit and it synch'd up at the full 80/20. Since then, every test I've performed on WHOOSH returns a great result ?? Baffled, you're not kidding. I honestly wanted to drill down to what the actual reason was to the 'Bridged Tap' results !!!! I'm happy but angry at the same time, if you get my drift ?? ::) ;D
Thanks for the 'thanks', btw ...... that was taken whilst my btter half is hammering 'Candy Crush' on her i-Pad. I think I could add a couple more Megs on that DS figure if she would only cook, clean and iron like what women should ??!! <hopefully kitz will miss this icon>. ;D
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Whoops, sorry Colin, didn't see your reply until after I'd responded to Asbo. As in that response, I've no damned idea as to how or why the elusive 'Tap' result has disappeared ?? I wish it was otherwise, believe me.
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That seems a high upload speed for ADSL with a poor dl speed, you sure everything as it should be? Be grateful I was stuck at less than 1 Mbps for years!
I'm assuming you're referring to 'Puppys' stats, Ryan ?? I have to say, I don't see anything wrong with those results myself ?? :)
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That seems a high upload speed for ADSL with a poor dl speed, you sure everything as it should be? Be grateful I was stuck at less than 1 Mbps for years!
I'm assuming you're referring to 'Puppys' stats, Ryan ?? I have to say, I don't see anything wrong with those results myself ?? :)
I believe he is, just to slow for a multi device family (Smart TV, Ipad, PC, sky catch up and 4 smart phones) :'(
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I meant the comment about the upload speed being high. ADSL2+ have a 1024Meg synch speeds, giving roughly what you have as a throughput speed. The downsteam speed is affected far greater, due to the higher frequency bins/buckets.
I just don't think your results are uncommon, or un-natural. :)
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That seems a high upload speed for ADSL with a poor dl speed, you sure everything as it should be? Be grateful I was stuck at less than 1 Mbps for years!
I'm assuming you're referring to 'Puppys' stats, Ryan ?? I have to say, I don't see anything wrong with those results myself ?? :)
Yeah, I am. Though he could be downloading looking at the ping as well...