Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: phi2008 on March 30, 2013, 08:32:33 PM
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I'm currently on an ADSL24 LLU ADSL connection and am interested in migrating to Plusnet FTTC. I've just finished an online chat with a Plusnet rep and been told I don't need a MAC to migrate to Plusnet FTTC and that Plusnet will ensure a seamless transition. Does that information sound correct?
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Never mind, this thread seems to answer my question - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3917429 ::)
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:)
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Mmm, after signing up with Plusnet without a MAC the first request they had was that I needed a MAC to progress my order. Sent a query to customer services asking what the situation was and they stated that in general they don't need a MAC but it could help facilitate transfer and reduce costs so get one when you ring up to cancel with your current provider. So it's definitive then, we don't need a MAC, give us your MAC? ???
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Oh phooey fiddlesticks. :-X
It seems as if the original representative, with whom you spoke, is one of those persons who doesn't seem to know last Tuesday from an empty broom-cupboard! :no:
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Just be thankful it isnt one of the LLU providers FTTC to non LUU FTTC.. then it does start to get complicated :(
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After further communication with a third CS rep he decided I definitely needed a MAC, which I requested on Tuesday morning and got after lunch today. Bit irritating but I'm now finally on my way to Plusnet. ::)
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the best thing to do is....
...just always get a MAC code...
never ask if you need one or not and dont bother if they say no... this way your not stuck in a rut when they decide they do want one, over on sky-forums ive seen countless people end up in a rut because of this (such as sky saying they take care of it, the customer closes his current broadband account only to find weeks later nothing is happening because the system is awaiting a MAC and he/she can no longer get one!) - basically they only know if you need a mac when the order is processed with openreach and it requests one, most reps will not know which 'scenarios' require MAC'S and which ones dont, or they get them mixed up....
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hello phi2008. May I ask why you want to "migrate". What I mean by this is why dont you just stop the contract with one isp and then connect with the nextor even connect with the next isp before disconnecting with the last. Why is it important to migrate. I only ask this as I am currently being charged for a cease charge from BT
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The reason is because only one service can be provided at a time and migrating allows a seamless transfer to the new isp, if you stop one isp you can't sign up with another until your current isp is gone and tag removed from the line.. You should have migrated as it would have been cheaper and quicker, your likely to be charged a reconnection fee too, as much as £129...and could take Weeks to get it all sorted
That's why they invented the mac migration system
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Thank you snadge, Hello. What do you mean by a reconnection fee. I presume that the phone line is not disconnected? Is it possible to have two isps on a "line" at the same time?
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No its not possible to have 2 isps on at the same time - hence snadges mention of the ISP TAG (that means the line is 'owned' by the other ISP).
If you dont use a MAC for migration then its basically a a cease and re-provide. A MAC ensures the work is done on the same day... without a MAC then you cant re-order until the full cease from the old ISP has gone through and the old ISPs tag removed from the line.
Phil wanted to migrate (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/migration.htm) because it means everything is done at the same time and its much cheaper.
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It gets a little bit more complicated with LLU, because if its fully unbundled then the phone line has to be moved too. In these cases a MAC isnt always needed as the new ISP can use a LORN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/housemove.htm#LORN) to tie together the PSTN and ADSL orders. Use of a Simultaneous Provision (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/housemove.htm#SPO_LORN) ensures no tags are left on the line.... its mostly used for house moves, but the fully unbundled LLU process is basically the same.
It is slightly further complicated in Phil's case because he was not only moving from LLU to BTw based, but there was also a change of product ie FTTC. Because FTTC is relatively new, I dont think all the creases have been ironed out yet when it comes to migration.
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Kitz can you elaborate on the LORN further? I mean it sounds like the OP has already actioned a cease on the line, could he have used LORN if thats for house moves?? im a bit confused lol...its not hard to confuse me hehe. ive never ever heard of anyone using LORN to move say from an LLU provider to BTW provider (as thats how I read your post)
icanbefound - it all depends on what you currently have and what your on at the exchange and to whom your going with, what they have in the exchange and what service your taking up as to what route/method you use...also whether or not your keeping both broadband & phone with one supplier or splitting them between two, you have LLu (Local Loop Unbundling - providers who have their own equipment in the exchange, moving between or from these dont require MAC's) and you have BTw (BT Wholesale - providers that re-sell from BT using BT's equipment, moving broadband between or from these require MAC's)
- you can have
1) BTw phone + BTw broadband
2) BTw phone + LLu broadband
3) LLu phone + LLu broadband
you cant get LLu phone + BTw broadband as the LLU telcos that rent phone lines to you that they "own" wont allow another provider to supply broadband over it....so far anyway!
I had previously:
BTw Phone (BT) and LLu Broadband (o2)
I moved to Sky LLu for both, I had to use a MAC because I was moved onto BTw phone (sky) + LLu Broadband (sky) as sky sometimes (for whatever reason) move customers over to a BTw provisioned phone line before moving that phone line onto their own equipment, they did 4 weeks later as I got a letter saying I was being moved to SVBN (Sky Voice & Broadband Network) and when I checked (dial 17070) it was no longer a BTw PSTN line... so thats why I had to use a MAC, the swap remained over BTw line, had they been placing me directly onto their LLu for phone aswell I would not have required a MAC.
confusing you yet? hehe
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There's a migration matrix over on TBB which explains this stuff snadge :
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/migration.html
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thing is Rizla its partially incorrect (or missing data) - because if I put in my scenario (at bottom of the page) from moving from BT/o2 to Sky/Sky it goes on to say they wont need a MAC and thats not true as it depends if your going onto MPF or SMPF with sky... sky put me on SMPF first so they wanted a MAC, 4 weeks later they moved me onto MPF - apparently (according to users on Sky User) sky do this a lot... why I dunno? maybe to ease transfer with a MAC?? - probably more related to capacity availability?
Thanks for link though, will give it a proper read later as rushing out now :)
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If there's a MAC involved Sky will use that first to migrate the ADSL across/shift line to Sky SMPF, then at a later date will move the line across to MPF.
If you are moving from SMPF BB then a MAC will always be used if provided, although the Sky ordering systems don't show one is required immediately. That's where most of the confusion occurs IMHO.
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So what your saying is that if the customer is already on SMPF and is moving to sky (even if there is MPF capacity available) that sky must request a Mac from customer? I've seen customers coming from SMPF to sky and not using mac... Hence me saying it may be capacity or some other reason, I've seen people on sky forum come from exact same setup I had (BT n o2 llu) and not use a mac... Strange eh?
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Kitz can you elaborate on the LORN further? I mean it sounds like the OP has already actioned a cease on the line, could he have used LORN if thats for house moves?? im a bit confused lol...its not hard to confuse me hehe. ive never ever heard of anyone using LORN to move say from an LLU provider to BTW provider (as thats how I read your post)
LORN (Linked Order Reference Number) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/housemove.htm#LORN) is a code used for matching together PSTN and broadband elements of a Simultaneous Provide Order (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/housemove.htm#Simultaneous_Provide_Orders) so that both can occur on the same day.
Yes an SPO (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/housemove.htm#moving) should be used for house moves, but they should also be used by the gaining ISP when moving from Full LLU to WBC.
See BTw doc SPO (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/images/Simultaneous_Provision_Overview_Issue52-1.ppt) - page 6
When would Simultaneous Provision be used?
- New provision of both PSTN and Broadband services, including as a result of a move of premises
- Migration from MPF or Cable (with or without LLU / Cable Broadband) to PSTN with Broadband
/snip/
Simultaneous Broadband orders are placed against a postcode and include a “Matching Reference” (also known as Linked Order Reference Number or LORN)
These two fields (postcode and “Matching Reference”) are used to match the two orders together
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So what your saying is that if the customer is already on SMPF and is moving to sky (even if there is MPF capacity available) that sky must request a Mac from customer? I've seen customers coming from SMPF to sky and not using mac... Hence me saying it may be capacity or some other reason, I've seen people on sky forum come from exact same setup I had (BT n o2 llu) and not use a mac... Strange eh?
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I dont think Sky always get the process right - rizla's comment of "although the Sky ordering systems don't show one is required immediately" may be the reason.
I think what may happen in some instances is that Sky dont do the SPO process properly. Ive known this happen for both my daughter and my friends daughter, both experienced broadband delay.
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Thanks kitz, so would that be initiated by the customer though? That is to say would the customer have to do all the work of getting LORN code etc and giving it to new providers?... In 8 years of using broadband forums it's the first I've heard of it lol... I've never seen anyone discuss it such as "I'm moving to BT from tt/sky and I've got my lorn code" hehe... Is it something the MPF isp tells you to get when ur leaving?
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In reply to your 2nd comments, aren't these systems automated tho? So they should either be correct or not correct and no 'sometimes it is'.?
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So what your saying is that if the customer is already on SMPF and is moving to sky (even if there is MPF capacity available) that sky must request a Mac from customer?
No, what I'm saying is that if you give them a MAC then they'll use it. That's why you went SMPF first, then MPF - just like me.
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I dont think Sky always get the process right - rizla's comment of "although the Sky ordering systems don't show one is required immediately" may be the reason.
I think what may happen in some instances is that Sky dont do the SPO process properly. Ive known this happen for both my daughter and my friends daughter, both experienced broadband delay.
What actually happens is that Sky take your order to move without a MAC and the order process for the phoneline move gets generated; after a couple of days the order system updates and (if you were on SMPF) then you have a section where you can enter a MAC.
If you don't enter the MAC then Sky move the phone and then do BB after the phone is moved. You will go directly from SMPF to MPF and will lose BB for a few days. Edit - this is usually the point where the router isn't sent out on time as well.
If you do enter the MAC then Sky will use that to move your BB and then some weeks later will move you to MPF - probably when they have a batch of jobs to do on same exchange. You won't lose BB for more than a couple of hours.
I think this is because if you give the gaining ADSL ISP a valid MAC code then they must use it. Never actually checked that however.
It costs Sky more money anyway, simply because you stay on SMPF longer. I'm sure they'd rather you didn't use a MAC.
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Thanks kitz, so would that be initiated by the customer though? That is to say would the customer have to do all the work of getting LORN code etc and giving it to new providers?...
Not in the case of MFP -> WBC/WLR.
Its up to the gaining ISP to do the work and place the order correctly and tie their own 2 orders together, hence the LORN not being given out to the EU. Theres no need for the customer to have the LORN because they cant do anything with it -in this case the gaining SP should use both elements to match the LORN.
You could in theory also use this process to say come back from TT and move to BTr for PSTN and Plusnet for broadband. In which case you'd need to get the LORN from BTr to give to Plusnet... which could be fun ;)
When moving away from Full LLU you should always use SPO & LORN or you will get delay.
Certain ISPs (such as PN or Zen) who have been doing LLU -> WBC migrations for years are familiar with the SPO process and 'just do it' hence not saying anything to the EU about LORN.