Kitz Forum
Computers & Hardware => Other Technologies & Hardware => Topic started by: kitz on November 23, 2012, 06:04:47 PM
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Quick question.
Some of you may be aware that my downstairs TV has been a right PITA since we went digital and there is no firmware upgrade, so Ive been stuggling for a few years and mostly resort to the upstairs tv / apple TV.
However Ive been offered a TV for xmas that involves the use of a heavily discounted Toshiba staff discount scheme.
Dilema - I understand the 50/100Hz refresh rate, but dont know how much this affects 'real time viewing'.
Budget allows either a 32" 100Hz or a 40" 50Hz. Out of the 2 which would you choose?
Im not a sports fan... mostly movies, streaming/catch-up tv, documentaries type of stuff.
Have to make a decision soon so all input would be appreciated.
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As an example this is one of the available TVs
Toshiba 40BL702 40" Full HD 1080p LED Backlit TV (http://www.tesco.com/direct/toshiba-40bl702-40-full-hd-1080p-led-backlit-tv/445-8194.prd?pageLevel=&skuId=445-8194&sc_cmp=pcp_GSF_Televisions_445-8194).
Please note that it isnt from Tesco though nor their prices.
I have been to Curry's to check out what they look like, but it wasnt much help when it comes to real life viewing as they loop through their own dvd because apparently dont have a tv licence to view how it would look in the real world.
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My personal opinion is that 100 Hz doesn't add much, because the transmitted frame rate is still 50 Hz, so the TV has to convert it to 100 Hz before displaying it. You might just see some difference in a fast-moving scene, but I wouldn't choose that in preference to getting the size I wanted.
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Remember that for many years all TV was 50Hz frame rate and very few people found it a problem. I would say if you would like a 40" TV and you've got the room for it, go for it.
Tony
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I would go for the one that fits into the room best.
Like others I think 50Hz vs 100Hz is a red herring.
40" will show up HD programs in more detail than 32" though you do actually have to sit surprisingly close to tell the difference.
This is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance
It suggests that you sit ONLY 4 feet from a 40" TV in some situations, just over 5 feet typically and up to 8 feet at most.
I'd say from my experience that any more than that and you'll not benefit from it being HD.
And don't forget that non-digital TV was actually interlaced so 25fps in reality.
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We've been thinking about a new TV for the sitting room and at present we have a 24 inch LCD. I am thinking we could fit a 40in but my wife feels that is a bit too big for the room, not for viewing but for the look of the room :o My feeling is that a Smart TV with WiFi built-n and an HD tuner are important considerations but again my wife looks at cost and not features :o So right now I dont know which way we'll go. We probably sit about 6-7 feet from the TV at present most of the time and the room is not huge the most we'd be away from it is about 10-11 feet. I think two major considerations are sound quality and viewing angle, sound quality for my wife as she has some hearing problems these days and viewing angle (both horizontal and vertical) for (I think) the obvious reason that we cannot both sit directly in front of it, and we don't really want it centre stage on the wall so it's the main focus of attention.
I think we will have to go and see the sets in the flesh (the TVs not us 8) ) before we take the plunge and spend our pennies.
Stuart
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Strange though it may seem I don't find the picture that important for most of the programs I watch.
It tends to be "radio with pictures" much of the time, except maybe for F1 and Rugby.
Even then, those two have excellent replays and close-ups for events that require it. 8)
In fact as I type this I have the TV on beside my PC and I'm listening to it.......
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Thank you everyone for the replies so far. :thumbs:
Its been helpful to know I dont need to worry too much about the 50Hz
TBH I quite liked the 40BL702B (32BL702B*) which I had seen in Tesco's and seemed to have a sharp picture (again only showing a dvd loop image). It was when I went into Curry's, I came out with my head spinning after being told 50Hz would be crap on a 32"/40" screen. :-\
Actually Curry's did me the favour, because of the overload of info I walked out empty handed.
It was only then, after mentioning it to someone else that he offered to get one via his staff discount. It is this that is now allowing me to go to 40" when I started looking at 32".
>> My feeling is that a Smart TV with WiFi built-n and an HD tuner are important considerations
Yeah.. now Im getting really tempted... Ive just noticed the 40RL958B (http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/Televisions/LED-TV/40RL958/) on the list for about £26 more than the above.
Thats changed the ballpark a bit.. still 50Hz though.
Decisions decisions
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I would go for the one that fits into the room best.
Like others I think 50Hz vs 100Hz is a red herring.
40" will show up HD programs in more detail than 32" though you do actually have to sit surprisingly close to tell the difference.
This is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance
It suggests that you sit ONLY 4 feet from a 40" TV in some situations, just over 5 feet typically and up to 8 feet at most.
I'd say from my experience that any more than that and you'll not benefit from it being HD.
And don't forget that non-digital TV was actually interlaced so 25fps in reality.
Thanks HP.
Just got the tape measure out.. Lounge is about 16 ft. 'My seat' is about 6-8ft away from the TV depending if Im sat up or sprawling :lol:, The other sofa is 14 ft away from TV. Im not putting it on the wall... it would probably pull all the plasterboard off ::)
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If you're mostly watching broadcast TV, then it's going to be 50Hz material anyway. I'd stick to 50Hz.
That said, and regarding your recent comment, getting something with a network connection in it (wired or wireless) is a very good idea.
My 2010 model Sony has iPlayer and various other free and subscription services in it, and I like at least some of these. The iPlayer is particularly nice.
But also, the TV is DLNA compatible, so it can access my media server computer fro the TV's own menu.
I run a free program callled Serviio on the PC, and have my own tv recordings there, as well as DVDs I'm watching. I find the upscaling of DVDs far superior if I view them through the network DLNA interface than if I play them on my upscaling DVD player. They can look quite impressive.
On Windows 7, you can right click on a video or MP3 file, and choose "play to", and it'll play out on the tv. All quite fun.
There's lots to tinker with!
DLNA websitehttp://www.dlna.org/ (http://www.dlna.org/) - you can serach for certified devices.
Ian
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'My seat' is about 6-8ft away from the TV depending if Im sat up or sprawling :lol:,
Before #2 son moved out recently he had a 42" screen which was watched at exactly that distance.
For football (his passion, definitely not mine) in HD it was a very good picture (on Sky) and actually an appropriate distance to sit.
Same for F1 and Rugby.
On the other hand our main TV (HD Ready with and HD FreeSat box) is only 32" and we watch from about 10ft away.
You can barely tell if it's an HD program or not.
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I'm very satisfied with my Smart Panasonic TV (37" I think) but to connect the TV to my router wirelessly as I could now I have a spiffy new Technicolor router courtesy Plusnet, I would need to buy a special Panasonic USB wireless dongle which is very expensive. However having run a long Ethernet cable into the lounge across the carpet I'm not overly impressed with what the set offers that way and certainly not worth spending out for a special dongle. I have made a few searches on the net for means to show dvds stored on my PC but that needs a media suite of some sort. This is a spur to install and use Win 7 which has it built in I believe. More expense!
Tony
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I have made a few searches on the net for means to show dvds stored on my PC but that needs a media suite of some sort. Tony
http://www.serviio.org/ (http://www.serviio.org/) is what I use. It's free (though there is a paid version with extra features, but I use free one and it's excellent).
TV menu then has Serviio PC appear and you can select the content stored on there and watch it, listen to it or view it (does video, pictures and music).
I've been using it a while, and don't remember having many problems setting it up. I run it on a Windows XP machine.
Ian
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...
On the other hand our main TV (HD Ready with and HD FreeSat box) is only 32" and we watch from about 10ft away.
You can barely tell if it's an HD program or not.
Likewise me and OH on our 4yo Panny that is 100Hz. I am not a sports fan, but it does cope with movement very well. As to HD or HD Ready there is a marginal improvement @720 but my son's
Phillips full HD does have an edge. My perception is that HD colours are somewhat more vibrant than SD.
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Thank you very much for everyones input. I have to make the decision this w/e if I want to take up the Toshiba offer.
I certainly feel a bit happier now about the 50Hz
I may well go for the Smart tv because theres so much more in the specs for the extra £26.. Im dashing out now (Dads Taxi again) but will perhaps write more later.
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I may well go for the Smart tv
My worries about such devices is that technology will evolve and the "smart" elements become irrelevant rather quickly.
I can see the attraction to some people who are "non-techy" and want/need an integrated unit, but I somehow don't think you're in that category. :lol:
My view on TV's is to try and get the best display device I can with a suitable selection of inputs. The (multiple) input devices evolve with the technology while the screen lives on. It's a rare moment when I use the "onboard" functions in a TV these days.
Just thinking about my main TV it currently has onboard Analog (dead) and Freeview SD (rarely used) plus inputs from PC, DVD, FreeSat HD (recorder) and YouView (free box from the trial). Both FreeSat and Youview have internet connections for catch-up.
In addition to that and various minor Freeview TV's I have in another room a FreeSat HD box and an active SkyPlus box (left behind by #2 son) which I plug a 22" widescreen monitor (with onboard speakers) into via HDMI when I want to use them.
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Agree with most comments re 100Hz being unconvincing, though I've never tried it.
Per HD I'll break ranks a little bit, we view our 40" set from about 12ft and the difference is really quite dramatic. That applies not just to freeview HD vs SD, but also to Blu-Ray vs DVD; we really do notice the difference, to the extent we splash out for Blu-Ray these days when buying new material.
On The bedroom set, a 32" viewed at about 14ft, the benefits of HD are less noticeable. You can still tell the difference, but tend to forget about it after 5 minutes.
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Deed is done - well it will be tomorrow when he orders it from work. :)
Decided on the 40RL958B (http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/Televisions/LED-TV/40RL958/) Smart TV..
>>> My worries about such devices is that technology will evolve and the "smart" elements become irrelevant rather quickly.
What I didnt have time to type yesterday was looking at the specs of the smart TV it made it a very good deal for the additional £26. That particular model seemed to carry a much better discount rate - dont ask me how it works its not % based, but their newer/high-end TVs do seem to carry the most discount and it appears that model is their flagship 40" model without going to 3-D.
I hadnt initially looked at the smart tvs as I thought theyd be way out of my range, usually bumping the price by about £100-£150.
The 50/100Hz rate is now possibly a moot point as that particular model has AMR 100 ?
Toshiba’s AMR100 picture processing technology provides vivid images and ultra-smooth moving picture quality. Motion blur is drastically reduced in fast moving pictures, such as action sequences or sports, delivering more defined movement on screen.
>>> I can see the attraction to some people who are "non-techy" and want/need an integrated unit, but I somehow don't think you're in that category.
Ive done the (home built) separate media system years ago, it was 'fun' at the time, but didnt quite work out how it should. I do an awful lot of i-player type streaming and I couldnt even buy a separate box for the comparatively small additional cost. I may at some point in the future upgrade to a standalone unit, but for now it would be silly not to go for it.
If you look at the full specs here (http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/Televisions/LED-TV/40RL958/#/detailsTab), you will perhaps understand why its the one I went for - particularly when Im saving about £250 off the MRP. ;)
I possibly wont get the opportunity of the Toshiba offer again, so I may as well take advantage of it whilst I can.
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>> getting something with a network connection in it (wired or wireless) is a very good idea.
>>> having run a long Ethernet cable into the lounge across the carpet I'm not overly impressed with
Although it says Wifi enabled, I will probably use ethernet. For some reason that particular corner of my room is about the only "not spot" in my house - as I found out to my cost when I dabbled with a home-built Antec system about umm 7yrs ago? I ended up having to lay ethernet cable then, and its still all there.
>>> My 2010 model Sony has iPlayer
I have apple TV upstairs and use i-player etc quite a lot already, its where most of my streaming content comes from.
>> the TV is DLNA compatible
The 40RL958B is supposed to be too. I no longer have a media server, but Im sure at some point I can do something about that ;)
>> http://www.serviio.org/ is what I use.
thank you for the info. :)
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I shall be interested to hear some real world feedback as to how it performs. It may well colour our decision in the New Year sales.
Stuart
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Good luck with that, I am somewhat envious.
I know you've had problems with the predeceeding TV, but you are at least bringing yourself up to date.
Our own 40" Sony was as good it got when we bought it in 2008 but although it's full 1080p HD, technology has moved on. Even apart from all the new tech features, I really notice the basic picture quality differences in contrast, black levels and viewing angles compared to current sets. As long as it carries on working however, I am unlikely to be granted purchase approval to update it >:(
Enjoy, and hope it works out well :)
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One of the main things to consider is how good is yout eye sight ?
For me I'm still blessed with good enough eyesight to see a difference although 50-100Hz is slight for normal viewing. Only really see the difference when a 50 and 100Hz are side by side.
Other options as far as image quality is worth it for me. on the othe rhand the other half has awfull astigmatism and can't see the difference between the 1st generation flat screen we have compaired to the 1080 posh bells & whistles tv with exception the newer one has more vibrant colours.
I can pick out the blown pixels on the old one from 12 feet away >:(
On the other hand for me theres no point in paying extra for exceptional sound quality. My hearing is damaged, so beyond a certain quality I couldn't tell any difference. The other half on the other hand (to paraphrase part of a quote from one of my fav'e movies "Hears so much as a mouse fart....."
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Ooops I should update this. Ive had the TV for a little while now and Im well pleased with it.
Toshiba's AMR100 is equivalent to 100Hz rate, so the picture is fine.
Im very glad I got the 40", my room easily takes it. The surround is very slim and total size wise it doesnt take up much more room than the old 32" it replaced. Picture is very clear.
and... and... and... it was a doddle to tune it. 8) For the first time since we went digital it was fantastic for me to be able to not faff around. It scans, and then asks you to select which region you prefer from all those its found. So all I had to do was select North West and YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY... no more Welsh TV ever :thumbs:
The Smart TV part of it is quite good and the wi-fi works fine. I went through numerous wifi cards and boosters trying to get the media center to work in the 'dead spot corner', but it picks up enough bandwidth to be able to stream HD stuff no problems.
Slight niggles,
1) The Toshiba Smart TV doesnt include a direct app for Netflix, may have to wait for a firmware upgrade.
2) The (paper) manual that comes with it, is crap. But that wasnt too much of a problem as I found everything very intuitive and I was easily able to set it up without downloading the PDF version.
Overall Im VERY pleased with it and feel I made the right choice :)
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Toshiba's AMR100 is equivalent to 100Hz rate, so the picture is fine.
Im very glad I got the 40", my room easily takes it. The surround is very slim and total size wise it doesnt take up much more room than the old 32" it replaced. Picture is very clear.
and... and... and... it was a doddle to tune it. 8) For the first time since we went digital it was fantastic for me to be able to not faff around. It scans, and then asks you to select which region you prefer from all those its found. So all I had to do was select North West and YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY... no more Welsh TV ever :thumbs:
Excellent! :clap:
Slight niggles,
1) The Toshiba Smart TV doesnt include a direct app for Netflix, may have to wait for a firmware upgrade.
2) The (paper) manual that comes with it, is crap. But that wasnt too much of a problem as I found everything very intuitive and I was easily able to set it up without downloading the PDF version.
1) - Can you force a firmware update over the net?
2) - A feature I rather like on my Sony 2010 model is that the manual is built into the set - there's a button on the remote for it. This is particularly useful to bring up on screen when you're trying to find the right socket on the rear of the set when you're standing in front!
Ian
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One question, can you get the ITV Player on it? I've seen an advert (I think for Samsung) whch says only on their TV can you get the ITV Player?
Stuart
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@Kitz
Did the wifi need a Toshiba special dongle to use it or did that come built in. The niggle I have with my Panasonic is a normal USB wifi dongle does not work (by design) and you have to buy their dongle at about £90. I've tested the internet connection function with a long Ethernet cable and it works but that's not very sightly or practical. I've bought on Ebay (£15) a Vonets wifi bridge which should do the trick but it is still baulking at connecting to my TG 582n. I have found a later driver/interface file and I must give it a whirl. Did you or anyone else have problems accessing wirelessly the 582? I ask because my new Samsung phone is proving recalcitrant as well. It's probably finger trouble at my end but any hints or tips would be gratefully received as I've not used wifi before even for my laptop.
I'm glad your TV tuning difficulties have been resolved by the improved scanning software. As I said in an earlier post I was impressed with a cheaper tuner I bought for a second set a little while ago which offers the same grouping facilities as you have found. Unfortunately I've found it is sometimes defeated by my particular situation roughly halfway between two high power main stations each taking the same feed. This means I have to resort to manual tuning - so I don't press the retune button every time it pokes me!
Tony.
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>>> Can you force a firmware update over the net?
Ive checked, and the latest f/w version for my model is already installed.
The 2 latest TV models (ie the 3D versions) natively do it, but I guess I'll just have to wait for a f/w release for my model. :(
>>> Sony 2010 model is that the manual is built into the set
Thats a good idea, on the Toshiba you can access it, but I believe you have to have set up the 'smart TV' to access it via the browser. Bit of a lack of foresight there.
>> One question, can you get the ITV Player on it?
Unfortunately not, the inbuilt apps are a bit sparse compared to what you can do on a PC. I do recall something when looking at sets in the early stages saying that only onr brand had obtained a licence from ITV, I guess that must be Samsung.
4OD isnt available either, afaik not on any of the smart TVs. 4OD seem a bit overzealous about what you can and cant do, and although I have 4OD on my ipad, they have managed to block output to any TV screen. I cant even get around it by mirroring as it senses the output it on a TV screen and gives you a message saying not available for screen output.
>> Did the wifi need a Toshiba special dongle to use it or did that come built in.
Built in. I was surprised that it worked, as previously that corner is a complete dead zone when it came to me trying to get wifi when I built the media center. In the past Ive tried different cards and even tried a couple of boosters (one which attached to the card and one that kinda worked which had an ariel on a stand which you could move around, but it wasnt ideal). In the end I laid ethernet to the media center. The only possible reason I can think is that the TV is a bit higher than where the media center was and because of this it has a clearer signal to the router.
Setting up the inbuilt wifi was very easy. IIRC there were 3 options a)auto-connect b)assisted c)manual.
I used the assisted which found my TG 582n and then all I had to do was put in my network key.
I may be wrong, but I think auto only works if you dont use WEP. I did have a look at the manual option, and it allows you to set things like the prefered IP ranges and DNS, but I didnt bother changing anything that the assisted option had already found. It was my original intention to use the LAN, but because wifi was such a doddle and it works so good, Ive left it on wifi.
On the whole everything was so very easy, the only thing I havent sussed (still not downloaded the manual because everything else was intuitive) is the web-browser in Toshiba places - Ive pressed every button on the remote but cant see an easy way to input alpha keys. Its not something I think Id use anyhow because I normally use the ipad if Im sat in front of the TV. When I have a bored moment I may look into this more.
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@Kitz
Did you or anyone else have problems accessing wirelessly the 582? I ask because my new Samsung phone is proving recalcitrant as well. It's probably finger trouble at my end but any hints or tips would be gratefully received as I've not used wifi before even for my laptop.
hmmmmm I had a dreadful time with my 582 and my HTC phone for wifi. In fact even some visiting friends phones dont work with it.
I made a thread about it somewhere, I'll try find the link and post the url in a mo.
The only solution I found was to allocate a fixed IP to my phone.
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Added link:-
HTC phones (HTC Desire, HD, S, Sensation, Hero etc) will not connect to Wi-Fi services on certain routers, most notably (but not limited to) the Speedtouch router. (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9794.msg197778/topicseen.html#msg197778)
Despite firmware updates, this is still the only way which I can connect my phone to my TG 582N by wifi. You may be able to adapt those instructions for a Samsung phone.
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Thanks for the hints and tips. It seems I must persist . If I get anywhere sensible I shall report.
Tony