Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: kitz on December 04, 2007, 05:32:09 PM
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As you know Im trying to teach myself php/sql... and the next stage of my project (this bit has taken a few months and much hair tearing) is about to be released. Yeah OK I know I went in at the deep end again because the backend system is quite large.... but its certainly one way of learning something :lol:
Theres still bits and pieces that need tidying up - and some minor cosmetic work/prettifying ... but I need some help with beta testing please.
The one area right now where I see there may be problems is with IP blocks.
I think Ive managed to get hold of most of the main UK ISPs, but there may be some gaps (cant find O2's range yet)..
and its one of those things that I wont know how it behaves really until its unleashed to the public.:/
So... with baited breath... lets see how it behaves.
btw ignore all the nasty red print-
When the rating page once it goes "live" will only allow you to rate once per month - but that function is switched off atm so you can test more than once.
Put what you want in the database - rate more than once - play with the stars if you like - It will all be cleared and restarted before it goes live.
Errors, comments, suggestions appreciated.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_rate.php
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_ratings.php
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_rating.php
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_ratings_compare.php
/me hopes it dont go all pear shaped :D
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I may be being stupid, but I can't get the rating thing to work.
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I may be being stupid, but I can't get the rating thing to work.
This page?
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_rate.php
Does it pick up your ISP ok?
At what stage does it go wrong?
Click on the stars to set the rating - ie 3/4/5
Then enter a short comment
Click submit
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I'll take a look later - well probably early tomorrow.
Re O2 - try looking for ranges owned by "Avatar Broadband Networks". That's Be - or what was originally Be prior to Telefonica buying them. I don't believe you will find any IP ranges allocated to O2 other than for mobiles.
Edit - search for AS35228. That is Be/O2's autonomous system number.
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ty rizla
Yeah I picked up Bes netnames as AVATAR-GB and also UK-AVATARBROADBAND% its O2's own network (if any) that Im having probs finding. :(
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>> Edit - search for AS35228. That is Be/O2's autonomous system number.
Just seen your edit - ty I'll have a look later.
Need to go out now - but I'll be back in a couple of hours and look into it then.
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This is what I get:
Unfortunately we have been unable to identify your ISP from your ISP address. This could either be due to:... etc
So effectively it's not recognising Tiscali.
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They don't have one - well not one allocated to "O2". Telefonica is your best bet but their net ranges aren't exactly well documented.
Edit - what datasource are you using to determine netranges?
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okies floydy - ty I'll have a look at yours later.
Possibly a block from elsewhere that I need to manually add.
BBL
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Hi Kitz,just rated my ISP,the pages look very good and every thing worked ok for me. :)
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It all worked fine here. I'm not sure that you need to insist on a comment. I had nothing to add to the ratings so just put zzz in the comments box, and it looks as though several other people did much the same.
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Hi, all seemed to work for me.
Looks good.
exo
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>> Edit - what datasource are you using to determine netranges?
Querying RIPE for the Netname - Couldnt find any decent lists (without forking out a fortune).
So the hard way. :/ The Netname then resolves to the ISP from a list it should build up over time.
I've got to thank Chris for helping me and pointing me in the right direction.... Without having a list or approaching ISPs then it was a bit of a hurdle.
Theres always going to be the odd ISP (like Floydy's) that decide to put something silly down for a block which doesnt always immediately make them identifyable. eg
org: ORG-TUL3-RIPE
netname: UK-TELINCO-20070619
I had already picked up a few obscure ones such as Be's "avatar" .. and Videonetworks (another of Tiscali's) etc.
Hopefully Ive managed to identify most of the others and the database Ive created so far seems to be resolving most IPs to the ISP, I'm well aware that there will always be the odd block that I will have to manually assign.
The early days are probably going to be when stuff is missing and Im aware of that, - hence the beta period - but it should be fairly easy for me to now add an block and associate it with a particular ISP. Touch wood it shouldnt take too long to build up a self supporting database
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This is what I get:
Unfortunately we have been unable to identify your ISP from your ISP address. This could either be due to:... etc
So effectively it's not recognising Tiscali.
It should recognise most of Tiscali's - eg when Tiscali declare themselves as say DSL-TISCALI-UK or VIDEONETWORKS...
Its just unfortunate that the particular IP that theyve allocated you is showing as belonging to UK-TELINCO and they put down their organisation as TUL3-RIPE . Even the RDNS is showing as dynamic.dsl.as9105.com. Its a bit hard to resolve something if the ISP doesnt declare who they are :/
I've manually added the block of IPs so it should now work.
The more people I get advising me that a particular block doesnt work - then I can soon add it and the system will work in future for others.
So if anyone does get any more like this please do let me know as it helps build up the database.
If it cant resolve an IP range it should automatically bring up a "we have been unable to identify your ISP from your ISP address" message with a direct contact link to advise me of the problem.
Thanks Floydy - you telling me helps me build up the list for future :)
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>> I'm not sure that you need to insist on a comment.
I had thought about this - but wanted if possible to encourage people to do so.
- Aside from the fact a null comment breaks the table <td> output :D
(reminds self to put something in for that - since its a formatting thing)
>> I had nothing to add to the ratings so just put zzz in the comments box,
Thats fine - the return/enter key or a couple of blank spaces will do
>>> and it looks as though several other people did much the same.
lol probably me doing "test" or ksljfsaf :lol:
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Thanks everyone for the comments so far
Keep them coming - I still have a few formatting things to do before it goes live too.
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All worked for me, it will be a useful tool. :)
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I didn't hit any snags on my first look. I'll have another go. If you hear nothing it's OK.
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Thanks guys
- appreciated :)
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Yay it now works for me. :)
(I tried to be as honest as possible without using any expletives)
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Just tried it again. It worked perfectly.
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Just rated again,no problems. :thumbs:
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Its just unfortunate that the particular IP that theyve allocated you is showing as belonging to UK-TELINCO and they put down their organisation as TUL3-RIPE . Even the RDNS is showing as dynamic.dsl.as9105.com. Its a bit hard to resolve something if the ISP doesnt declare who they are :/
But they do - and they do it in the best possible way by listing the Autonomous System number in the rdns.
12/05/07 09:17:36 whois as9105@whois.ripe.net
whois -h whois.ripe.net as9105 ...
% This is the RIPE Whois query server #1.
% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% Rights restricted by copyright.
% See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html
% Note: This output has been filtered.
% To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag.
% Information related to 'AS8192 - AS9215'
as-block: AS8192 - AS9215
descr: RIPE NCC ASN block
remarks: These AS Numbers are further assigned to network
operators in the RIPE NCC service region. AS
assignment policy is documented in:
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/asn-assignment.html>
RIPE NCC members can request AS Numbers using the
form located at:
<http://lirportal.ripe.net/lirportal/liruser/resource_request/draw.html?name=as-number>
org: ORG-NCC1-RIPE
admin-c: CREW-RIPE
tech-c: OPS4-RIPE
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
organisation: ORG-NCC1-RIPE
org-name: RIPE NCC
org-type: RIR
address: RIPE Network Coordination Centre
address: P.O. Box 10096
address: 1001 EB Amsterdam
address: The Netherlands
phone: +31 20 535 4444
fax-no: +31 20 535 4445
admin-c: CREW-RIPE
tech-c: CREW-RIPE
mnt-ref: RIPE-NCC-RIS-MNT
mnt-ref: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
role: RIPE NCC Registration Services Department
address: RIPE Network Coordination Centre
address: P.O. Box 10096
address: 1001 EB Amsterdam
address: the Netherlands
phone: +31 20 535 4444
fax-no: +31 20 535 4445
org: ORG-NCC1-RIPE
admin-c: AdlH1-RIPE
admin-c: FdMP2-RIPE
tech-c: TH2221-RIPE
tech-c: KL1200-RIPE
tech-c: TIM4-RIPE
tech-c: ACM2-RIPE
tech-c: IW112-RIPE
tech-c: PINK1-RIPE
tech-c: XAV
tech-c: AKA
tech-c: SD1131-RIPE
tech-c: SLON-RIPE
tech-c: ALEX
tech-c: AM11077-RIPE
tech-c: DIRK1-RIPE
tech-c: NT1031-RIPE
tech-c: AK5348-RIPE
nic-hdl: CREW-RIPE
abuse-mailbox: abuse@ripe.net
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
role: RIPE NCC Operations
address: Singel 258
address: 1016 AB Amsterdam
address: The Netherlands
phone: +31 20 535 4444
fax-no: +31 20 535 4445
admin-c: AMR68-RIPE
admin-c: BRD-RIPE
tech-c: GL7321-RIPE
tech-c: MG241-RIPE
tech-c: JA47
tech-c: MENN1-RIPE
tech-c: EMIL-RIPE
tech-c: SSIE-RIPE
tech-c: RCO-RIPE
tech-c: kk1297-RIPE
tech-c: DH2398-RIPE
tech-c: APZ-RIPE
tech-c: JLOK-RIPE
nic-hdl: OPS4-RIPE
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
% Information related to 'AS9105'
aut-num: AS9105
as-name: TISCALI-UK
descr: Tiscali UK
descr: ISP Network, UK
import: from AS3257
action pref=100;
accept ANY AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS5378
action pref=100;
accept ANY AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS6765
action pref=100;
accept ANY AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS8372
action pref=100;
accept ANY AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS8553
action pref=100;
accept AS-GEMSOFT AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS8575
action pref=100;
accept AS-WINWEB AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS12519
action pref=100;
accept AS12519 AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS12707
action pref=100;
accept AS12707 AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS12295
action pref=100;
accept AS12295 AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS21099
action pref=100;
accept AS21099 AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS28861
action pref=100;
accept AS28861 AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
import: from AS35716
action pref=100;
accept AS35716 AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
export: to AS3257
announce AS-TISCALIUK
export: to AS5378
announce AS-TISCALIUK
export: to AS6765
announce AS-TISCALIUK
export: to AS8372
announce AS-TISCALIUK
export: to AS8553
announce ANY
export: to AS8575
announce ANY
export: to AS12519
announce ANY
export: to AS12707
announce ANY
export: to AS12295
announce AS9105
export: to AS21099
announce AS-TISCALIUK
export: to AS28861
announce AS-TISCALIUK
export: to AS35716
announce AS-TISCALIUK
default: to AS3257
action pref=100;
networks ANY
admin-c: TU935-RIPE
tech-c: TU935-RIPE
mnt-by: TU935-RIPE-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
role: Tiscali UK
address: Tiscali UK Limited
address: 20 Broadwick Street
address: London W1F 8HT
phone: +44 207 087 2000
remarks: Information: http://www.tiscali.com
org: ORG-TUL3-RIPE
admin-c: DC-RIPE
admin-c: GD9105-RIPE
tech-c: DC-RIPE
nic-hdl: TU935-RIPE
remarks: Hostmaster Role Account
mnt-by: TU935-RIPE-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
abuse-mailbox: abuse@uk.tiscali.com
Or did you not know you could do a whois on an AS number?
I assume you know about ftp.ripe.net?
If not then go have a browse around as you might find things like ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/stats/delegated-ripencc-20071203 useful ;) If nothing else it'll be a damn sight quicker than querying the whois system :D
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It can't find my ISP so you have some of the UKO/Sky ranges missing I assume?
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It can't find my ISP so you have some of the UKO/Sky ranges missing I assume?
Thats my fault - I was using EASYNET-CONSUMER-DSL when (with hindsite) I should have perhaps used EASYNET-CONSUMER-DSL% in my code.
- Amended. :)
Thanks for the list - not sure how I can import that yet - need to think ........
chriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis ???? :lol:
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Would you mind if I suggested what you should do - tough if you don't :P You probably won't like it but it is the best way ;)
First of all go to ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/split where manageable sized database files exist. Download everything. There is a huge db one directory up but given it decompresses to just over 1GB I'd use the smaller ones :)
Then compile a list/db/whatever of AS Number -> ISP. This is the ONLY way to retain your sanity in future ;) The reason is that AS numbers are used for routing so nobody goes changing them on a regular basis (if ever). You'll find some AS numbers cease being used as big ISPs gobble up little ISPs but in general all you'd need to do is download the RIPE monthly db and run a check to see if anything has altered. The Tiscali example earlier shows some of the AS numbers they've gobbled up.
So you have your AS number -> ISP sorted with perhaps a monthly run of a script to ensure all is well. Edit - depending on what you're using for the backend you might just be able to do a simple replacement of the database if yours is compatible with the RIPE db formats.
This means that all you have to do is take the RIPE IP->AS data on a monthly basis and replace the previous months data. That will give you the ability to link an IP address to any European ISP/LIR.
I suspect this might mean a major rethink/redesign :)
/me runs away
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One problem with this approach might be the vISPs but I assume you've worked out how to "detect" them?
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Just to let you know whats happening on this and it hasnt been ignored.
Thanks for the comments rizla :)
I have found a way to pull in the AS number - but tying up that up with the ISP needs a heck of a lot more work.
Those databases are huge so the first step is pulling out all the GB ones. It will then be a matter of compiling a cross ref - in a similar way to which I already have with the netname -> ISP.
Although some things look immediately obvious to the human eye - computers wont tie something up unless its an exact match. :/
lol know I know why the likes of TBB rely on the ISPs to inform them of their ranges. :D
All this stuff is backend - so wont make any difference to the front end stuff. Everything is modularised so if I am able to do it differently then its simply a case of replacing one section.
Bear in mind that I haven't been programming in php that long and therefore Im hoping that I can discuss some of the options this w/e with chris if he has a bit of free time.. to see what can be done
So comments etc are still appreciated on the user side of things etc - whilst I see if the backend stuff can be changed.
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a lil update on this.. for the time being Im leaving the original interface up whilst all the backend stuff is being re-done. With a lil help from chris at the w/e we erm gave the ripe database a bit of a trawling through and have extracted all the UK ASnames and numbers.
The stage Im at now is creating a database which links the AS names to a real ISP name. Theres no way round it but manually creating a table which links all the ISP names to the ASname - there isnt any way it can be done automatically since the ripe AS name doesnt automatically make it obvious for a computer to see which ISP is which.
Theres also some ISPs that would appear to have a few different AS names and some ISPs dont make it obvious until you look as the AS description. Im also addressing the stuff like IC24 which is now part of the MAAF/brightview group.. so theres no easy way other than compiling my own personal lookup table.
Once thats done then I can look at integrating the new modules into the existing stuff.
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What does ASP name mean?
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Autonomous System (AS)
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-389.html
But to keep it very simple - a naming system in which an ISP (or anyone who is assigned a block of IP addresses) is recorded in the RIPE database.
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/ pedant mode on
Its a number, not a name.
Its a routing system (BGP4) primarily and not a database.
/ pedant mode off
PS - kitz BGP4 ought to give you a clue as to why AG used to ask ISPs for address block details back in the early days. I'm pretty certain Mr Lahtinen doesn't need to ask now (nor has he for some years).
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I thought I saw something pretty recent - well within the past few months on ag about the ip range - unless Ive been in a time warp and times flown quicker than I thought (possible)
I'v just hit a major hurdle anyhow... and surprised you couldnt hear me scream from there :D...
Im pulling back the ASno easy enough - but Im now having a prob identifying some ISPs
From the ASno Im looking up the ASname - hardly any ISPs do an exact match but Ive been getting around this
for eg
479 AS25360 Parbin 84.51.128.0 84.51.191.255 whose description is Parbin Limited London, UK
So Im pointing Parbin to "Metronet" in my own records
But theres a whole heap of ASnames identifying themselves as "UNSPECIFIED" including the likes of supanet and C+W that Ive noticed so far
eg from a supanet
2325 AS9142 UNSPECIFIED 212.111.160.0 212.111.175.255 who when you do another lookup description is Netline UK Ltd
but theres also a lot of C+W "unspecified"
Need a major rethink... because Ive also now got a lot of blanks for the likes of Bulldog, Nildram, UKO, F2S, TT, Orange etc - none of whom are identifying atm :(
As it stands the theory of taking the IP > ASNo works fine...
Its getting the ASNo to match the ISP automatically thats giving me the problem. :/
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Thanks Kitz, but I'm still none the wiser.
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yeah I think I know whatcha mean... and Ive probably bitten off more than I can chew at attempting to do this on me own :(
Thanks chris ever so much for the help with the ripe stuff I really do appreciate it...
but Im right back to where I was before and still have too much missing info - only this time its worse since I cant differentiate between the likes of some ISPs. :/
I may have to fall back on the previous system of netnames and rely on people to tell me if theres missing blocks of IP ranges - I expected there would be hence the beta period until my database had chance to build up its own records.
I may look at seeing if I can do a combined system - need to think when my head isnt spinning.
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Floydy... lemme try explain the basics of the system to you.
There is a European registrar responsible for all IP addresses that have been allocated to Europe. This registrar company is called RIPE (http://www.ripe.net).
Say I owned ChrisNet Ltd™, which is a fictitious ISP, and I wanted a block of IP addresses to use.
I would have to register my details with RIPE. I am allocated what's called an AS Number (explained above) by RIPE, and this is my unique identifier within the RIPE system.
So in RIPE's database, I am not known as ChrisNet, I am actually known as (e.g.) AS12345.
I can also put in an AS-Name which is simply a description for any human beings reading the RIPE database who might not know which company AS12345 refers to. This AS Name is generally a shortened version of the proper ISP name e.g. it might be CHRIS-NET or CHRISNET-AS rather than "ChrisNet Ltd™"
So to recap, I am called ChrisNet Ltd™, my AS number is 12345 and my AS is CHRISNET-AS
About my IP address allocation.. RIPE allocate me some IP addresses and assign them to the AS number 12345 (my ISP).
Now all this data is available publically, so from an IP address, the system we're developing can send a query to RIPE which will give me back the AS number (12345).
From the AS number I can look up the AS Name (CHRISNET-AS).
From this AS name, kitz has (is building up!) her own database that matches AS names to 'real' ISP names, which is displayed to you on the screen.
So in Kitz's table, there may be entries such as this:
BEUNLIMITED | Be
ZEN-AS | Zen
CHRISNET-AS | ChrisNet Ltd™
etc.
So step by step, we have to look up each bit in turn, and each time we get a piece of different information that helps us piece together actually which ISP the IP address belongs to!
Unfortunately, the data isn't quite as 'clean' as you'd like it to be, and over the years ISPs have used loads of different and obscure AS names, which don't match the name of the ISP at all! So it's a bit of a nightmare.
Hope that helps :)
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Note to kitz - I'm sure with a bit of perseverance we can look up on AS number to ISP instead of AS Name... I've just read your post. It wouldn't be that difficult to change the code to do that instead, and we'll cache the as name where there is one so you know who most of them are at a glance!
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The as-name can change as far as I know. It is just a descriptor after all.
Eg Big ISP buys small ISP (LIR would be more accurate) so the AS number would become part of the bigger ISP. The as-name (a descriptor field remember) should change to reflect that but it doesn't have to - big ISP could choose to call it legacy_customers_that_we _dont_make_a_penny_from if they wished :D
What's complicating this is that you are looking for what you'd call an ISP. Thing is that an "ISP" is technically a LIR (local internet registry) - eg Netconnex (TBB) is a LIR but they don't provide internet access*. You can (and do) have the situation where one LIR sells connectivity to another and provides address space as well.
I wonder if there's a way to cull the data down a bit?
/me will have a think
*well they do but not in the way that the average person would call "internet access"
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>> I'm sure with a bit of perseverance we can look up on AS number
Thats what I thought - and what I'd been trying but Ive ended up in a worse situation because now theres a whole pile of missing ISPs ... lol you have .. about 5 ISPs - ie BT, Tiscali, Virgin etc. - ok slight exaggeration but the batch of take over and mergers over the past year means that its proving difficult using this method to identify say Bulldog, Nildram etc if you get the picture :(
Hence the scream this afty :D
>> The as-name can change as far as I know
From what Ive seen it obviously does.. not only that theres many that are just "UNSPECIFIED", yet they may be say C+W
The only way forward I can think right now is doing some sort of combination of Netname, ASNo, and my own list of IP ranges.
I need to think much deeper into this. Once we have caught and built up the records everything should work.. its building up that damn cache in the first place.
We know the netname seems to pull up a lot of the indiv ISPs, but theres obviously no way to catch them all using this method. Therefore was keeping a cache of IP ranges from the ones people advised.
The ASno >> ASname looked as if it would catch all the UK IP ranges - which it does... but from the info I can pull back from querying ripe this way is too broad spectrumed for some ISPs in view of the recent takeovers.
Believe it or not to get just whats there now there must be at least 30+ php files each with 100/1000s of lines of code.
Like I say - talk about jumping in at the deep-end... and hence whats kept me so quiet over the past couple of months :D
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OK update on this - and partially the reason why Ive been so quiet over the past week or so.
The AS number/name system wasnt able to correctly identify far too many ISPs and therefore its been back to the drawing board.
I have something new in place muchly based on the original system, but it now has a lot more IP info in to start with which has been obtained by long manual trawling through ripe info. Obviously there will always be the odd one that will crop up, and as time goes by the system will generate its own cache. As with anything of this type the more info thats put in, then the better it will work.. so its got to start somewhere.
Can I say a huge thanks to chris for giving me help with the RIPE ASname stuff,
Without his help and encouragement this project would likely have been abandoned at the last hurdle.
----------------------------
So its back to you guys and beta-testing time again please. As previous - the function which stops "duplicates" is turned off to enable testing.
Theres a lot of "gumph" in the test database so atm the ISPs actual ratings are far from a true reflection. For now I dont care much whats in the comments and the system will be reset when it goes live.
Rate your ISP (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_rate.php)
ISP ratings (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_ratings.php)
Compare ISP ratings (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_ratings_compare.php)
ISP rating results (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_rating.php)
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Worked fine for me :) Everything looked good.
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Let me add to this - there is a HUGE amount of work that Kitz has put into this on both the front end, and back-end with with all the rating system database stuff itself... and I must admit I've put in a fair whack myself with regards to the ISP detection routines.
I have gotta say, good idea though it was, Rizla, that the AS numbers are a complete red, no, BLOOD RED(!!) herring... all the ISP acquisitions are being incorporated into their new parent, so that was pretty much a no-go, which we only discovered AFTER completing all the code to make it work :wall:
So yes, please try it, break it, mess it up, most importantly PLEASE report any problems you find with it or any other suggestions you have. :)
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Rated my ISP again, surprisingly with the exact same star ratings and similar comments as before. :)
May I go home early now please Miss?
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It all works very well here. Only one very tiny comment - the screen which compares up to 6 ISPs lays itself out slightly oddly, because the blocks of data for some ISPs take up more vertical space than others. An example is attached.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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ooo...what browser is that eric?
I suspect it's just some table code that needs tweaking somewhere... heh - over to you kitz - the 'pretty stuff' is all your department ;) :P
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It's Firefox 2.0.0.11 in Linux.
By the way, I forgot to say that I'm most impressed with the hard work and the excellent result. Great job!
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I've just tried the same comparison (down to the same ISPs) in Safari 3.0.4 on OS X and it appears correctly i.e. correctly aligned.
Great features you guys have introduced btw :)
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All seems to be working OK for me. Firefox with Windows Me.
You've certainly been busy! Well done. :)
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We've changed the layout slightly to try and allow for the problem Eric was seeing.. not sure why your fonts are bigger than they should be / appear on Windows, but is the layout any better Eric?
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Perfick!
My fonts are bigger because my eyesight isn't as good as it was, and I've configured a largish minimum font size in FF. It's quite a common experience to find sites in which the text overflows the area it's supposed to be inside, but that's no problem here.
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Thanks for the feedback eric. :)
Yep it was an overspill fault due to the font size, hence why we were scratching our heads at first wondering why we couldnt recreate the problem on any of our machines.. then we noticed the larger size, although I must admit I perhaps thought it was the way linux handled the style sheet fonts.
Anyhow fixed to allow a bit extra room.