Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: GunJack on August 07, 2012, 10:25:33 PM
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Well, it looks like the Autumn estimates for my area to get FTTC are beginning to look pretty accurate....was up the road in the vicinity of my pcp today....and there's a shiny new "growth" a couple of feet away from it !!!! It's one of the smaller FTTC cabs, slightly surprised, but what kind of line quantity can the smaller ones (about 1m high by around 60-ish cm wide) take ??
Just for b*cat, I'll sort out a piccie when I get chance :)
Although, still don't know if it's going to be worth an extra tenner a month.....
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Whether its worth the extra money or not depends on how far away you are from it.
it seems that Infinity 2 rapidly loses performance over certain distances. Have a look at the numerous complaints in the BT Infinity forum.
I really hope BT fix this problem. Vectoring (a means to reduce the ill effects caused by cross talk) seems to be a million years away from becoming reality....
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what kind of line quantity can the smaller ones (about 1m high by around 60-ish cm wide) take ??
Just for b*cat, I'll sort out a piccie when I get chance :)
Those dimensions (although in alien units) do not seem familiar to me so, yes please, a photograph will be interesting to examine.
I also know that Walter will be interested in any details about the new cabinet.
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Whether its worth the extra money or not depends on how far away you are from it.
it seems that Infinity 2 rapidly loses performance over certain distances.
Just because it is FTTC doesn't necessary mean mega fast speeds,the distance the old copper(or aluminium) cable runs from your house to the street cabinet can have a large impact on what speeds you can get.
My house is less than 200m walking distance from the fibre street cabinet,yet the estimation for the length the old copper cable runs is 861m,which gives me a rough speed of 22mb down and 8mb up(on a 24/10 package with Origin BB)
The chart below was supplied by Thinkbroad,it is for Digital Region,whether its the same for other fibre connections I'm not sure but it will give you a rough idea.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimage.org%2F5oiz7a9mp%2FSpeeds.png&hash=3970560c8b9c86a3d29bdbb9c73e1cc7de729a6e)
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I live 644 metres (Google) from cab and do not use FTTC but BT/PN rate estimate is 25.6
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Hi Renluop,
Your picture will probably look like the one below if it's the Israeli manufactured one.
As the name suggests it can be either a 128 service or a 256 service version which are the same external size.
However the actual capacity is limited by the number of tie cables 2 * 100 pr = 100 services or 4 * 100 pr = 200 services.
This is what the a 100 service PCP looks like with the tie cables terminated on the right hand side of the cabinet.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/102678991/PCP-19-FTTC-Tie-Cables-Installed
For a 200 service there will be two more cables stripped further down the same termination unit.
(Note also that there are some PCPs with IDC blocks some of which have new ones for the tie cables and some don't !)
Kind regards,
Walter
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nice one walter, saves me taking the pic ;) that's the fella that's pitched up about 2 ft from the pcp.
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nice one walter, saves me taking the pic ;) that's the fella that's pitched up about 2 ft from the pcp.
Is it "in the hedge" (like the PCP) or out on the pavement?
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That Image of a Cabinet that waltergmw provided looks very messy :o
Surly it should look like this inside ? http://superfastnorthamptonshire.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fttc.jpg
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Surly it should look like this inside ? http://superfastnorthamptonshire.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fttc.jpg
:no: The image you have linked to is of the inside of a "big" Huawei FTTC, whereas the image that Walter has provided is of the exterior of the "smaller" ECI FTTC. The internal image, to which Walter provides a link, is of the FTTC's twin, the PCP. ;)
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IIRC the FTTC cab twinned with the PCP that serves my address is the smaller 100 version. Stupidly I have lost the link to the spreadsheet that listed cab against post code, and the number of premises I thought allocated exceeds 100.
Anyone got that link for this dimbo? :-[
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Surly it should look like this inside ? http://superfastnorthamptonshire.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fttc.jpg
:no: The image you have linked to is of the inside of a "big" Huawei FTTC, whereas the image that Walter has provided is of the exterior of the "smaller" ECI FTTC. The internal image, to which Walter provides a link, is of the FTTC's twin, the PCP. ;)
Thanks for FTTC Cab lesson 1, Ill never get my OR/BT exam ???
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If I were the examiner, I would find it rather difficult to fail a candidate with such a nice looking avatar. ;D
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Surly it should look like this inside ? http://superfastnorthamptonshire.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fttc.jpg
:no: The image you have linked to is of the inside of a "big" Huawei FTTC, whereas the image that Walter has provided is of the exterior of the "smaller" ECI FTTC. The internal image, to which Walter provides a link, is of the FTTC's twin, the PCP. ;)
Thanks for FTTC Cab lesson 1, Ill never get my OR/BT exam ???
I wouldn't worry, you'd probably get slotted in at tier 2 management. If you'd have shown us a phot of a Virgin Media cab, then tier 5 management would have beckoned. ;D :'( ;D
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Do I detect an outbreak of heresy without the Openreack ranks? :-\
Could the various customer-facing support tiers really be staffed by "numpty script-reading monkeys"? :-X
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If I were the examiner, I would find it rather difficult to fail a candidate with such a nice looking avatar. ;D
Thanks BC that Avatar is the only Best friend left, as I my other friend two weeks ago roamed to far near a busy road :'(
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I'm sorry to read that. How sad. :'(
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IIRC the FTTC cab twinned with the PCP that serves my address is the smaller 100 version. Stupidly I have lost the link to the spreadsheet that listed cab against post code, and the number of premises I thought allocated exceeds 100.
Anyone got that link for this dimbo? :-[
Anyone?
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After a long delve have found the SS issued by BT 04/11.
I wonder if the allocation of the PCPs is that reliable, as I have not even got through 50% of the postcodes supposedly on the same PCP as mine and adjusted to the %ages forecast to have a FTTC service, and there are over 400 addresses.
Now some are commercial premises and some will not have phones, but they will be insignificant.
Even if the PCP and FTTC cab are higher capacity than thought, which I doubt, I reckon BT would be unlikely to pass stage 1 primary maths.
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Whether its worth the extra money or not depends on how far away you are from it.
it seems that Infinity 2 rapidly loses performance over certain distances.
The chart below was supplied by Thinkbroad,it is for Digital Region,whether its the same for other fibre connections I'm not sure but it will give you a rough idea.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimage.org%2F5oiz7a9mp%2FSpeeds.png&hash=3970560c8b9c86a3d29bdbb9c73e1cc7de729a6e)
I'm not sure that table is very helpful, seeing as what you need to know is line length to cabinet rather than line-of-sight distance to cabinet, which it appears that chart is based on.
There are plenty of reports of people being very close to the cabinet but the actual line goes round their estate before going back to the cabinet, making them actually quite far away in line length.
I myself am around 110M from the cabinet with my line length approximately 230M to the cabinet (based on tracing my lines real path on Google Earth).
My max attainable speed is ALWAYS over 110Mbit (thank you HG612). However, Digital Region in their infinite wisdom have me capped at 70Mbit, in fact they currently cap ALL residential customers at 70Mbit max.
So it makes that table all the more questionable as how can they know how close you need to be to get 100Mbit if nobody on the network is being allowed to sync at that speed?
If its based on speed test results then that is even less accurate, as the TBB speed test NEVER achieves my maximum data rate, speedtest.net does however.
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To give some reference my parents are about 200m from an fttc. add 15m for the pole, about 35m of drop wire. 4 m of lead-in to the nte (star wiring and hr dis removed :angel:) plus say an average 2m per ug box of which there's about 5
There downstream is about 39 Mbps
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Here is one clear datum point for you all.
I have electronically measured (with an ex-Beatie Tester 301C) the distance of my neighbour's pair from his NTE5/A to the FTTC DSLAM at 395 metres. It is a copper pair, with no aluminium used in the metallic path.
The results of a throughput speed test and the usual graphs are attached, below, for his BT Infinity 1 (40/10 Mbps) Broadband connection.
Note that the attainable rate shows as 25574 kbps US and 66764 kbps DS.
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nice one walter, saves me taking the pic ;) that's the fella that's pitched up about 2 ft from the pcp.
Is it "in the hedge" (like the PCP) or out on the pavement?
sorry Mr *Cat, I missed this question..... it's on the pavement, not in the hedge :)
They have been busy around us, and I've counted at least 3 new cabs have gone in, and what looks like prep for a fourth....
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My "repaired" connection is reported as 1186m from the cabinet using a BT 301C tester & just less than 1000m when the most likely route was measured with a trundle wheel.
DS Sync speeds have been as high as 33Mbps - 35Mbps (Interleaving OFF) & are currently around 27.5Mbps - 28.5Mbps (Interleaving ON).
DS Attainable Rate is usually around 33Mbps (slightly lower overnight).
US sync speed is usually around 4.5Mbps as is US Attainable Rate (US Interleaving is usually OFF).
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sorry Mr *Cat, I missed this question..... it's on the pavement, not in the hedge :)
No problems. I had forgotten that I had asked it! ::)
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Surly it should look like this inside ? http://superfastnorthamptonshire.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/fttc.jpg
I'm not sure if I'd like a cab in the front parlour, but it would look great in the back garden next to my K8! As a newbie, I'm gathering info on DSLAMs as part of a 'street furniture' project rather than a 'how fast can I go' quest, but the tech specs/builds are interesting nonetheless.
I haven't seen any actual ECI cabs, but it appears that they have more vent holes than the Huawei types? Is there any other way to spot the difference?
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Hi smucat and welcome. :)
You may be interested in the following thread which shows the fttc street furniture.
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=11819.0
Since you mention an interest in the ECI cabs, I posted a few internal pics,
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,11701.0.html
I'll add link to the thread in a moment (im on a mobile device which tends to bin the post if I try add links at the same time).
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Edited to add links
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Further to the above, I just noticed you may have already put your paws into the thread in the first post I linked to ;) but just to clarify check out the video that b*cat linked to in there.
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Further to the above, I just noticed you may have already put your paws into the thread in the first post I linked to ;) but just to clarify check out the video that b*cat linked to in there.
Hello Kitz. Yes, been there, seen that, and indeed thanks to b*cat for sight. I wondered how the presenter got away with naming the DSLAM a module rather than a multiplexer. I'm apt to go leaping about, so I'm grateful to you for shining a light along the fibres to highlight the routes 8)
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@ smucat,
You are correct about the additional ventilation holes for ECI cabinets, but if you are going into BKK mode he will insist you differentiate between an ECI 128 and and ECI 256 which have identical cabinets.
That is an impossible quest from the outside but easy if the doors are open as the installation progresses.
You can guess the size if the associated joint pit is open as the ECI 128 only has one pair of 100 pr cables whereas the ECI 256 seems to have two pairs.
(I've yet to see if a further 50 pr set is added too. That's another job for Kitz next time her radar detects an open joint pit by her FTTCs !)
Talking of doors the ECI cabinets have the old standard triangle door catches whereas the Huawei ones have star catches.
Both do have security locks fitted in the central bar casing, but only after the cabinet is fully commissioned with power and all the cables in place.
Kind regards,
Walter
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@ waltergmw
Oh, to clarify you are saying that the ECI 128 and 256 are the same dimensions?
As a newbie here I'll try not to second guess anyone, but it seems strange that they would derate the capacity for the sake of another 50 pr. I'm wondering if they've got later upgrades in mind where they'll increase the DSLAM loadings and put in another 100 pair at the same time.
And another question arises as to how many subs on a typical PCP. I'll have to do some more reading of previous posts here.
Thanks for the replies so far :)
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@ smucat,
Yes exactly the same. The only difference is in the cards populated with the same rack @ 64 lines per card.
More importantly, and quite incredibly where there is no VM competition they don't bother to put all the IDC blocks or link cables in. Also the block arrangements are such that you would be bridging the blocks across the tie cables. At present each 128 block set has a single 100 pr cable set. if you want to add the last 50 you either end up with a rat's nest of overlapping cables or you shift the second 100 pr up to complete the missing 28 pairs and then start mid-cable on the second 128 leaving the last 50 off the second block to the 50 pr.
Bearing in mind the whole design is KISS a far as the Openreach fellas are concerned, it seems as if they are not expecting to deploy field engineering staff.
Why they don't design a cabinet with a capacity for 500 services, but only populated as required beats me.
Instead of which you see the vast expense of installing a second cabinet.
PCPs come in different sizes with different numbers of cables. Perhaps BS can help but I'd guess rural cabinets can be anything from a couple of hundred up to around 600 lines.
If you really ant to spend months counting there is always the BT PCP to Postcode database in the public domain.
Kind regards,
Walter
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@ waltergmw
Thanks Walter, you guys really do have your paws on the lines.
I'm always happy to speculate on the ways of Beattie. The Huawei cabs were purchased first and the large 288 ones aren't popular with the NIMBY folks, so an even larger cab wouldn't be good news. The ECI 256 seems a better solution and on the basis of ''lock 'em and leave 'em'' the cabling mess wouldn't be a problem. And all jumpering for new FTTC subs is done in the PCP [Is that right?]. With planners being placed in the field to match the increasing demand of FTTC home installs it's a mad rush to meet targets before someone in the City decides it's under-performing!
Talking of large cabs, there were trials of 'all in one' and 'top box' combined PCPs and FTTCs. Have any such animals been spotted in the wild?
And can you explain what a 're-shell' of a PCP involves?
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@ smucat,
Now if someone was actually trying to solve the capacity problem for FTTC they could always do as the then Rutland Telecoms did and INSIST on isolated D side lines (AKA FMP in BT Speak). That way would halve the block count and save a small copper fortune on the second tie cable. Anybody insisting on a battery backed phone line could buy it direct from the PCP. The rest could buy a small UPS so they could still use their laptops and iPads in a power outage.
I've only seen the pictures of prototype units as you describe. Again, if they could get over the perceived finger-poking problems by "ordinary BT Openreach folk" it would be so much better in cramped footpath conditions than running very long tie cables elsewhere.
Re-shell or re-sleeve is replacing the often cast iron cabinet skins with larger sheet metal ones to accommodate the new tie cable termination "French Onion Mans" assemblies.
Here's a picture of how NOT to do it !
http://www.scribd.com/doc/97538956/Reversed-PCP-5352
Kind regards,
Walter
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@ waltergmw
Thanks, I understand some of that, but I'm not an engineer, so I don't know what you mean by isolated D sides. In a PCP, the E sides are the pairs from the exchange. The D sides go (finally) U/G or O/H to the subs. The D & E sides get rejumpered to a broadband 'in' and out' strip on the passive side of the FTTC cab.
If isolated 'D sides' meant loss of POTs service in a power outage, then there would be licence implications? Sorry, knowledge is lacking...
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@ smucat,
You have understood the construction precisely ! Although there were some implications I believe they were recognised and any VDSL service requiring a telephone service via the broadband service were supplied with UPS units thus satisfying Ofcom. These points were clearly explained in the literature. I also believe the Openreach price schedule includes both SMPF and FMP prices at that time as required by Ofcom.
Kind regards,
Walter
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If you really ant to spend months counting there is always the BT PCP to Postcode database in the public domain.
Kind regards,
Walter
When there's nothing on TV, I might. Do you have a URL please?
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@ smucat,
I suspect most sites have now long since disappeared. The behemoth was decidedly displeased so I understand !
However if you were to obtain the very best cut of wild salmon and proffer it towards a renowned master-pussy it is possible he could provide a set of files of very large proportions.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Yucky! :tongue: I don't like fish. The live in an environment contaminated by human effluent. :sick:
However not being an associate of the Evil Empire, I am willing to send a 6.3 MB ZIP file to a certain cat's e-mail address that I have got, on-file, here in The Cattery. Please note that the file is now eleven months out of date but it still contains useful information. ;)
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Being a man of senior leisure I have been spending moments already working out the number of premises linked to my cabinet [p12]. The ratio of addresses to cabinet capacity is quite high already. Some addresses are urban and some have rural postcodes. Will post idc ( to add to your boredom >:D ;D).
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I briefly watched Morrison's (not the supermarket) dig up the 'council tax paid for' block paving'-footway this morning as they located the main street power cable and dug a small trench to the FTTC H288. I expect that M J Quinn or UK Power will arrive on Monday to complete the connection?
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Yes and no. Maybe and probably. Is the tide high in Dartford Creek? Where are we in the current sun-spot cycle? Who knows the innermost secrets of Beattie's boudoir? Not I.
:P
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The tide is now high at 'Dartford Creek', but the plain white van is not helping establish the contractor's name. :no:
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. . . but the plain white van . . .
Oh no! :o That could be interpreted as the local division of 'Pikey's R Us' are in action, 'on the rob'. :-\
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. . . but the plain white van . . .
...apart from the 'flammable gas' red warning diamonds on the outside.
And indeed they did appear to 'appropriate' a section of the power cable, leaving a plastic joint in its place, as well as a new armoured (?) lead-in for the cab. I expect fellow Kitizens are familiar with the process :)
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@ smucat,
You can now purr connectedly on top of a now slightly warmer FTTC cabinet as it has power applied.
However you would be advised to wait a few more days until the cabinet has been fully commissioned whereupon you will hear the fans running.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Apparently, the fans are rated 40 dB daytime and just 35 dB at night. Googling around suggests that the H128 and H96 cab dimensions are identical (800 x 450). Cab heights (1300) seem overquoted, but I guess it depends how far the root is buried into the plinth, or more exactly how the pavement has been reinstated.
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@ smucat,
I can confirm that both ECI 128 and ECI 256 use the same cabinet.
Here's an image from a local planning application document.
Kind regards,
Walter